You forgot the reasoning for Garde btw.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Nice to see Mawile to S, That sub set is really what put it over the edge since you can't be burned/slept, it's only really beaten by M-Venusaur, and even then that's shaky since Synthesis has limited PP and you really need EQ or HP fire to break through. I'd even go as far as to say it could need a suspect, it's just THAT consistent in getting KO's. I can't comment on all the C-rank movers since I have no experience with them.
Anyway, I think that if Aegi cops the ban from OU, we'll see a rise in viability (once the meta settles a bit) from Mega Cham and Mega Garde, but also the Latis, particularly Latios since the LO set really is great (apart from 4MSS) and Aegislash is one of the only safe switch-ins.
Anyway, I think that if Aegi cops the ban from OU, we'll see a rise in viability (once the meta settles a bit) from Mega Cham and Mega Garde, but also the Latis, particularly Latios since the LO set really is great (apart from 4MSS) and Aegislash is one of the only safe switch-ins.
Tornadus T is an underrated monster and should be used more often.
Clefable can be a win condition as I've seen it put a stop to stall teams with Magic Guard. Quite threatening. But I don't see a reason to use it as a cleric over Chansey or Sylveon, or being a Stealth Rock setter over everyone else who can do it.
Interesting how rain teams make these lower tier water Pokemon reliable. Alomomola is good on stall too.
Celebii and Moltres being overshadowed gain the recognition they deserve. Thundurus T has immunity to electric attacks over Thundy. Otherwise wtf Gamefreak.
Uh, if Cresselia and Exploud are trick room staples, why do they rank up yet Reuniclus gets moved down? I personally dislike Reuniclus, but called it a shitty Pokemon is a shitty argument.
I've thought Jirachi was nearly the same level as Celebi. Serene Grace makes paraflinching a nightmare and Rachi gets Heal Wish too. Wasn't it a top tier threat in gen 5? I have yet to see a match where Jirachi is deadweight, I don't get the D ranking. If Aegilsash leaves, the D ranking makes even less sense to me.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Move Smeargle to D rank. Baton Pass chains are sabotaged, what gave Smeargle an effective niche is ruined, and Smeargle just sucks as lead from my experience.
Clefable can be a win condition as I've seen it put a stop to stall teams with Magic Guard. Quite threatening. But I don't see a reason to use it as a cleric over Chansey or Sylveon, or being a Stealth Rock setter over everyone else who can do it.
Interesting how rain teams make these lower tier water Pokemon reliable. Alomomola is good on stall too.
Celebii and Moltres being overshadowed gain the recognition they deserve. Thundurus T has immunity to electric attacks over Thundy. Otherwise wtf Gamefreak.
Uh, if Cresselia and Exploud are trick room staples, why do they rank up yet Reuniclus gets moved down? I personally dislike Reuniclus, but called it a shitty Pokemon is a shitty argument.
I've thought Jirachi was nearly the same level as Celebi. Serene Grace makes paraflinching a nightmare and Rachi gets Heal Wish too. Wasn't it a top tier threat in gen 5? I have yet to see a match where Jirachi is deadweight, I don't get the D ranking. If Aegilsash leaves, the D ranking makes even less sense to me.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Move Smeargle to D rank. Baton Pass chains are sabotaged, what gave Smeargle an effective niche is ruined, and Smeargle just sucks as lead from my experience.
Been wanting to Nominate Klefki for B- for a while now, but the deo bans pushed me over the edge.
Lets start by defining a b rank pokemon:
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
Now klefki certainly has notable flaws, like it's weakness to taunt, common weaknesses, and middling stats.
However klefki is free to focus ev's due to prankster, helping out it's bad stats, while it can always double it's weaker defense on turn one.
It also has prankster thunder wave, saving it from being set-up bait, and can set spikes if it's against something it walls.
Klefki only needs a defog absorber to funtion, and can easily set up spikes and screens.
Lets start by defining a b rank pokemon:
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
Now klefki certainly has notable flaws, like it's weakness to taunt, common weaknesses, and middling stats.
However klefki is free to focus ev's due to prankster, helping out it's bad stats, while it can always double it's weaker defense on turn one.
It also has prankster thunder wave, saving it from being set-up bait, and can set spikes if it's against something it walls.
Klefki only needs a defog absorber to funtion, and can easily set up spikes and screens.
Okay, I deleted this discussion regarding this "slippery slope" argument in the event that Aegislash is banned. This argument is garbage because not a single person knows the exact fallout of the ban and making assumptions say that "We'll have to ban 548985456165 other Pokemon because Aegislash kept them in check." Is not true in the slightest. I personally think banning Aegislash will allow the metagame to truly develop (which it hasn't really done thus far because of it) to where we aren't seeing the same copy paste teams that every has used with slight variations, this isn't a healthy for the game. Anyway this isn't thread to discuss this matter, the suspect thread is just a click way.
Please stay on topic.
Please stay on topic.
I don't think Bisharp should drop because of the Deoxys-D ban. Yes DeoSharp was a thing and now it isn't, but come on, how many Bisharps did you see in high-level play and tournaments that were paired with a Deoxys forme that isn't the offensive LO Doexys-S set. Even so, Bisharp still discourages the removal of Stealth Rock, but you barely ever see it actually switch into and gain a boost from Defog anymore. The reasons it is so high as because of it's absurdly spammable Knock Off and its ability to Pursuit trap Latios and Latias, making it easier to keep up Stealth Rock (which should be on reliable setters that can survive throughout the game). You set up SR, bait in the Latis with Keldeo or Mega Charizard Y or something, bring in Bisharp an a Defog or potentially resisted attack, and trap the Lati. Bisharp isn't that much different since the Deoxys ban, and I don't think it should be dropped.
Can we please just drop Conkeldurr to C rank (if not lower). It is simply not effective anymore and loses to a majority of top threats. Ass Vest lacks signifigant power not to mention weaknesses to the ever common flying and fairy moves floating around. Conk cannot keep up in the current metagame as it is pathetically slow, lacks power on its only good set, fails to be successful against most of the top threats and is almost always prepared for without even trying by every type of play style.
It's shit, i might even drop it to D rank, but basically the metagame is way more prepared to take fast Fairy attacks, with threatening Steel-types everywhere, such as Mega Mawile, Aegislash, Mega Scizor, and Excadrill.
And to clarify a few things that have been talked about in the last pages:
- In regards to moving Espeon down: This will definitely happen, Espeon will drop to either C or C-, depending on how effective its Dual Screens set turns out to be in comparison to other dual screeners.
- About moving Scolipede down one rank: This will probably happen, though there is a slight chance it won't if its lead set is very good in the new meta (Spikes + Endeavor).
- About moving Mega Heracross up: This will prolly happen.
- About pumping most suicide leads: This will happen, don't worry.
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Yeah Conk isn't C rank by any stretch of the imagination. Just look at the C rank mons. You have shit like Blissey and Salamence in there. Aka things that are outclassed but can still do their job with a lot of team support. Conk isn't that low. Yes his speed sucks. No he's doesn't lack power. Drain Punch definitely isn't the most damaging move, but it still does enough (along with the added effect of healing). On top of that, Conk has Knock Off, which is the second most spammable move in the game (after Scald). He doesn't have many safe switch ins as the things that CAN OHKO him don't like taking a Knock Off to the face (both the Latis are OHKOed when they're holding an item). Venu can switch in, but that's true for any fighting type bar Medicham or a boosted Terrakion.
On top of that, nothing else in the tier can really classify as a bulky fighting type (Keldeo I guess? He's still more of a sweeper) so that gives Conk a notable niche that can act as the glue of many teams. And yeah, he's unfortunately caught in the crossfire when things are running psychic moves for Venu. That sucks and has taken a toll out of his usage, but he still isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination. On top of that he was used in WCoP by FLCL. He literally didn't die to something like Zapdos, which is supposed to wall him. I watched it live, but heres the replay.
I say keep him in B
She can wow incoming mawile, scizor and excadrill switch ins though and then get out of there and we know how much these pokes hate the attack drop.
Dual Screens are still the least of your worries when it comes to Espeon. Sure, it's a decent enough Dual Screener for having a great speed tier and being the only OU viable thing that can both set up screens and prevent them from being defogged away, but Espeon is still almost the same old pain in the rear it was in BP 2.0 when used in the infamous Scolipede + Espeon combination.
People have been quick to dismiss BP teams now that it has been restricted to 1 user per team, but this obviously didn't affect the aforementioned core at all and thus that dismissal isn't really accurate. There's still a very simple and effective formula you can follow to get easy wins where often the only way for the opponent to win is with a crit or hax:
Set up screens --> Memento --> Boost defense and speed as much as possible with Scoli --> Pass into the ideal recipient based on the situation and opponents team (mostly Espeon and Clefable) --> Spam Calm Mind + Recovery Move --> Sweep with Stored Power + Coverage Move.
It still usually hoses stall that doesn't have a dedicated answer, and fares well against offensive teams alike. Combine this with the fact that these types of teams are very seldom used because people aren't really aware of how good they are, and they become even better because people no longer even consider them when team building.
So on those grounds, I don't believe it wise to lower Espeon because it's still a mon which defines a playstyle and one which is still dangerous. As someone who's been using this type of team a lot lately, I still get a lot of negative comments from people I face and they still label it as 'cheap' and 'broken'.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-141402284
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-141110994
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-140788812
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-140931067 (1800+)
So what pokemon with hax/crits counter this gamestyle? That's max speed/+ve speed nature Latios so the only pokemon that outspeed him that can ohko him with 252 speed evs are jolly weavile life orb knock off (Adamant is too slow), jolly choice speced noivens draco meteor (scoli can then start the baton chain freely), then the rest are hoping for the speed tie (lol archeops in ou), are choice scarfed or prankster taunts, which then you switch into the best suitable counter to those threats and once they are scared of bring latios back in and set up the screen depending on the threat that will come in if it isn't killed.
Mega Gardevoir can do exactly the same, mind you.
Yes, but its more noticeable in regular garde do to her speedy wisp with scarf and potential to cripple something with trick scarf.
It might be beating a dead horse, but these replays pretty much confirm that Scolipede has always been the issue all along with BP chains.
In fact, I would use them as evidence to move Scolipede up to A+ or even S rank because it might potentially fit the criteria for "broken support".
Espeon is also a threat on its own right as these replays show. I would place it no lower than B- rank.
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I don't necessarily disagree with Espeon staying in B- at least, though those replays don't really prove much. The first three were against inexperienced opponents (who forgot to put Huge Power on their Azumarill for instance) and the only battle against someone high on the ladder was decided by pure luck. Two Stone Edge misses in a row and a lost coin flip on the Sucker Punch with Mawile... As I said, doesn't prove much.
What..Scolipede is no where near as good as you're making it out to be. It can still be Taunted if it lacks Mental Herb, stopped from passing all-together with Banded Talonflame or phazed out. It's best set is actually the LO Attacker set which can clean up late game fairly well and also revenge kill almost anything it wants. A- is fine for it, it's not nearly as metagame defining as anything in A+ or S Rank, especially now that Baton Pass chains are banned. Espeon is also terrible, those replays show what exactly? All I see is Scolipede passing boosts to CM Espeon behind Dual Screens. News flash - If you let Scolipede pass boosts behind Screens to just about anything on the list it's going to become a deadly sweeper, that's more on Scolipede's worth than Espeon's and does nothing to deter the fact that Espeon can't accomplish anything else other than a Dual Screens set. At least before it had Baton Pass chains and could scare Deoxys-D a bit and try to lure and KO Bisharp, now it accomplishes even less and certainly deserves a drop.
Also, can we remove Cloyster from the list? It's in D Rank but I don't think new players should be given the idea that using Cloyster is a good idea at all. Doesn't break Aegislash, doesn't break Stall, frail, SR weak, not even that tough to revenge if you actually let it get to +2. One set, predictable and requires too much support for mediocre results.
Eh I guess Cloyster can stay D rank to remind players it's not that effective in the OU metagame... and it's still a gimmick sweeper who has a good shot at destroying offensive teams if Thundurus is gone, since it survives most priority attacks thanks to its 180 defense. Only Scarf Latios and higher can outspeed it otherwise. Shell Smash Cloyster's main niche was back when Baton Pass was at its prime.
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Cloyster is far from a "gimmick sweeper" and now that the Deos are gone it's also an excellent lead. Thundurus-I doesn't need to be "gone" because it can still run Ice Shard.
Before you say that Ice Shard is not worth it, Ice is the most common weakness among S- and A-rank pokemon, with 13 of them being 2x or 4x to it. Running it is definitely worth it.
D rank is just too low for it. You seriously can't tell me that it's on the same level as stuff like Empoleon and Toxicroak, who are practically non-threats in OU.
If you simultaneously give any set-up sweeper Screens and Memento support, they're going to be hard to deal with. BP is still alive, but after having followed dEnIsSsS around for a little bit, my conclusion is that it's just not very good anymore. Yes it can win matches, yes his team (Thundy [Taunt/Twave/HP Ice/Bolt]/Azelf [Taunt/Screens/KABLOOIE]/Whimsicott [Taunt/Encore/Memento/Tailwind]/Smeargle [Herb+Geomancy/Cotton Guard/BP/Dark Void | Taunt]/Espeon [Stored Power/Dazzling Gleam/Mornign Sun/Sub]/Clefable [???], later switching Clefable and Thundy for Heatran and Gothitelle) could be worse than the one in the replays in this thread, but you'd have to be a fool (or be massively asspained) to say it's anything more than a sort of decent strat, let alone one that makes Scolipede worthy of A+/S rank.
Or I could use Mamoswine or Weavile, who are much better pokemon and also have a more powerful Ice Shard without set-up.
Except Cloyster IS a non-threat in OU. It's just not good.
D rank sounds right. There's Mamoswine who can take out those top tier threats with his powerful ice attacks without needing a turn of setup. I used to use Cloyster, he cannot setup consistently. Still he can put out a lot of damage under certain circumstances. But I'm sure these players who want Cloyster to be removed actually have been swept by one before, forfeited out of embarrassment, and pretend it never happened.
Name something from those 13 Pokemon that Cloyster can SAFELY set up on. He requires prediction, Defog support and Thundurus/Aegislash gone. D rank is fine for it.
lolleadcloyster
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