You forgot the reasoning for Garde btw.
It's shit, i might even drop it to D rank, but basically the metagame is way more prepared to take fast Fairy attacks, with threatening Steel-types everywhere, such as Mega Mawile, Aegislash, Mega Scizor, and Excadrill.You forgot the reasoning for Garde btw.
Yeah Conk isn't C rank by any stretch of the imagination. Just look at the C rank mons. You have shit like Blissey and Salamence in there. Aka things that are outclassed but can still do their job with a lot of team support. Conk isn't that low. Yes his speed sucks. No he's doesn't lack power. Drain Punch definitely isn't the most damaging move, but it still does enough (along with the added effect of healing). On top of that, Conk has Knock Off, which is the second most spammable move in the game (after Scald). He doesn't have many safe switch ins as the things that CAN OHKO him don't like taking a Knock Off to the face (both the Latis are OHKOed when they're holding an item). Venu can switch in, but that's true for any fighting type bar Medicham or a boosted Terrakion.Can we please just drop Conkeldurr to C rank (if not lower). It is simply not effective anymore and loses to a majority of top threats. Ass Vest lacks signifigant power not to mention weaknesses to the ever common flying and fairy moves floating around. Conk cannot keep up in the current metagame as it is pathetically slow, lacks power on its only good set, fails to be successful against most of the top threats and is almost always prepared for without even trying by every type of play style.
She can wow incoming mawile, scizor and excadrill switch ins though and then get out of there and we know how much these pokes hate the attack drop.It's shit, i might even drop it to D rank, but basically the metagame is way more prepared to take fast Fairy attacks, with threatening Steel-types everywhere, such as Mega Mawile, Aegislash, Mega Scizor, and Excadrill.
Dual Screens are still the least of your worries when it comes to Espeon. Sure, it's a decent enough Dual Screener for having a great speed tier and being the only OU viable thing that can both set up screens and prevent them from being defogged away, but Espeon is still almost the same old pain in the rear it was in BP 2.0 when used in the infamous Scolipede + Espeon combination.- In regards to moving Espeon down: This will definitely happen, Espeon will drop to either C or C-, depending on how effective its Dual Screens set turns out to be in comparison to other dual screeners.
So what pokemon with hax/crits counter this gamestyle? That's max speed/+ve speed nature Latios so the only pokemon that outspeed him that can ohko him with 252 speed evs are jolly weavile life orb knock off (Adamant is too slow), jolly choice speced noivens draco meteor (scoli can then start the baton chain freely), then the rest are hoping for the speed tie (lol archeops in ou), are choice scarfed or prankster taunts, which then you switch into the best suitable counter to those threats and once they are scared of bring latios back in and set up the screen depending on the threat that will come in if it isn't killed.snip
Mega Gardevoir can do exactly the same, mind you.She can wow incoming mawile, scizor and excadrill switch ins though and then get out of there and we know how much these pokes hate the attack drop.
Yes, but its more noticeable in regular garde do to her speedy wisp with scarf and potential to cripple something with trick scarf.Mega Gardevoir can do exactly the same, mind you.
It might be beating a dead horse, but these replays pretty much confirm that Scolipede has always been the issue all along with BP chains.Dual Screens are still the least of your worries when it comes to Espeon. Sure, it's a decent enough Dual Screener for having a great speed tier and being the only OU viable thing that can both set up screens and prevent them from being defogged away, but Espeon is still almost the same old pain in the rear it was in BP 2.0 when used in the infamous Scolipede + Espeon combination.
People have been quick to dismiss BP teams now that it has been restricted to 1 user per team, but this obviously didn't affect the aforementioned core at all and thus that dismissal isn't really accurate. There's still a very simple and effective formula you can follow to get easy wins where often the only way for the opponent to win is with a crit or hax:
Set up screens --> Memento --> Boost defense and speed as much as possible with Scoli --> Pass into the ideal recipient based on the situation and opponents team (mostly Espeon and Clefable) --> Spam Calm Mind + Recovery Move --> Sweep with Stored Power + Coverage Move.
It still usually hoses stall that doesn't have a dedicated answer, and fares well against offensive teams alike. Combine this with the fact that these types of teams are very seldom used because people aren't really aware of how good they are, and they become even better because people no longer even consider them when team building.
So on those grounds, I don't believe it wise to lower Espeon because it's still a mon which defines a playstyle and one which is still dangerous. As someone who's been using this type of team a lot lately, I still get a lot of negative comments from people I face and they still label it as 'cheap' and 'broken'.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-141402284
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-141110994
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-140788812
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-140931067 (1800+)
What..Scolipede is no where near as good as you're making it out to be. It can still be Taunted if it lacks Mental Herb, stopped from passing all-together with Banded Talonflame or phazed out. It's best set is actually the LO Attacker set which can clean up late game fairly well and also revenge kill almost anything it wants. A- is fine for it, it's not nearly as metagame defining as anything in A+ or S Rank, especially now that Baton Pass chains are banned. Espeon is also terrible, those replays show what exactly? All I see is Scolipede passing boosts to CM Espeon behind Dual Screens. News flash - If you let Scolipede pass boosts behind Screens to just about anything on the list it's going to become a deadly sweeper, that's more on Scolipede's worth than Espeon's and does nothing to deter the fact that Espeon can't accomplish anything else other than a Dual Screens set. At least before it had Baton Pass chains and could scare Deoxys-D a bit and try to lure and KO Bisharp, now it accomplishes even less and certainly deserves a drop.It might be beating a dead horse, but these replays pretty much confirm that Scolipede has always been the issue all along with BP chains.
In fact, I would use them as evidence to move Scolipede up to A+ or even S rank because it might potentially fit the criteria of "broken support".
Espeon is also a threat on its own right as these replays show. I would place it no lower than B- rank.
Eh I guess Cloyster can stay D rank to remind players it's not that effective in the OU metagame... and it's still a gimmick sweeper who has a good shot at destroying offensive teams if Thundurus is gone, since it survives most priority attacks thanks to its 180 defense. Only Scarf Latios and higher can outspeed it otherwise. Shell Smash Cloyster's main niche was back when Baton Pass was at its prime.Also, can we remove Cloyster from the list? It's in D Rank but I don't think new players should be given the idea that using Cloyster is a good idea at all. Doesn't break Aegislash, doesn't break Stall, frail, SR weak, not even that tough to revenge if you actually let it get to +2. One set, predictable and requires too much support for mediocre results.
Cloyster is far from a "gimmick sweeper" and now that the Deos are gone it's also an excellent lead. Thundurus-I doesn't need to be "gone" because it can still run Ice Shard.Eh I guess Cloyster can stay D rank to remind players it's not that effective in the OU metagame... and it's still a gimmick sweeper who has a good shot at destroying offensive teams if Thundurus is gone, since it survives most priority attacks thanks to its 180 defense. Only Scarf Latios and higher can outspeed it otherwise. Shell Smash Cloyster's main niche was back when Baton Pass was at its prime.
If you simultaneously give any set-up sweeper Screens and Memento support, they're going to be hard to deal with. BP is still alive, but after having followed dEnIsSsS around for a little bit, my conclusion is that it's just not very good anymore. Yes it can win matches, yes his team (Thundy [Taunt/Twave/HP Ice/Bolt]/Azelf [Taunt/Screens/KABLOOIE]/Whimsicott [Taunt/Encore/Memento/Tailwind]/Smeargle [Herb+Geomancy/Cotton Guard/BP/Dark Void | Taunt]/Espeon [Stored Power/Dazzling Gleam/Mornign Sun/Sub]/Clefable [???], later switching Clefable and Thundy for Heatran and Gothitelle) could be worse than the one in the replays in this thread, but you'd have to be a fool (or be massively asspained) to say it's anything more than a sort of decent strat, let alone one that makes Scolipede worthy of A+/S rank.WHY WON'T THIS STRAT DIE?!?
Or I could use Mamoswine or Weavile, who are much better pokemon and also have a more powerful Ice Shard without set-up.Thundurus-I doesn't need to be "gone" because it can still run Ice Shard.
Before you say that Ice Shard is not worth it, Ice is the most common weakness among S- and A-rank pokemon, with 13 of them being 2x or 4x to it. Running it is definitely worth it.
Except Cloyster IS a non-threat in OU. It's just not good.D rank is just too low for it. You seriously can't tell me that it's on the same level as stuff like Empoleon and Toxicroak, who are practically non-threats in OU.
D rank sounds right. There's Mamoswine who can take out those top tier threats with his powerful ice attacks without needing a turn of setup. I used to use Cloyster, he cannot setup consistently. Still he can put out a lot of damage under certain circumstances. But I'm sure these players who want Cloyster to be removed actually have been swept by one before, forfeited out of embarrassment, and pretend it never happened.Cloyster is far from a "gimmick sweeper" and now that the Deos are gone it's also an excellent lead. Thundurus-I doesn't need to be "gone" because it can still run Ice Shard.
Before you say that Ice Shard is not worth it, Ice is the most common weakness among S- and A-rank pokemon, with 13 of them being 2x or 4x to it. Running it is definitely worth it.
D rank is just too low for it. You seriously can't tell me that it's on the same level as stuff like Empoleon and Toxicroak, who are practically non-threats in OU.
Name something from those 13 Pokemon that Cloyster can SAFELY set up on. He requires prediction, Defog support and Thundurus/Aegislash gone. D rank is fine for it.Cloyster is far from a "gimmick sweeper" and now that the Deos are gone it's also an excellent lead. Thundurus-I doesn't need to be "gone" because it can still run Ice Shard.
Before you say that Ice Shard is not worth it, Ice is the most common weakness among S- and A-rank pokemon, with 13 of them being 2x or 4x to it. Running it is definitely worth it.
D rank is just too low for it. You seriously can't tell me that it's on the same level as stuff like Empoleon and Toxicroak, who are practically non-threats in OU.