Gen 2 GSC Viability Ranking (OU)

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how are you getting around it specifically? half of gsc teams fall to a +2 agi drumlax with lk flat out. getting off the pass is the hard part, and smeargle leads all but guarantee it, what are you doing differently? sub stops the status and explosion prediction. this isn't a team that needs a plan b, so if you're playing with plan b in mind that's definitely going to affect its viability.

just curious.
 
getting off the pass is the hard part, and smeargle leads all but guarantee it, what are you doing differently?
Nidoking lead has a 75% chance of sleeping Smeargle, and Gengar a 60%. You're usually not winning t1 vs. that. Later on, maybe, but not t1.

Dual phazers can stop it. SkarmKou is a common combination on stall teams. Even if they're not leading with Kou, they switch to it t1 as you agi, t2 you sleep Kou (or you don't, and get phazed), t3 you pass to DrumLax as they switch to Skarm, t4 Lax attacks Skarm unboosted for near-zilch and gets phazed (or Drums and still gets phazed if you want to be a retard). No win there and Smeargle's now thrown Spore so it's Scizor for the rest of the battle. Or you could pass to Wak instead and try for 5 straight flinches with Rock Slide I guess (if you SD then again you get phazed), but last I checked 0.1% isn't "[more than] half the time". Skarm + Missy does much the same - Smeargle likewise is forced to Spore Missy or eat PSong and then Skarm cleans up.

I have seen Sleep Talk Skarm before; it's shit in general but it does stop this most of the time. It'll get 3 attempts to Sleep Talk Whirlwind (forced Spore, Pass, boost) before you can hit it from 999, and it's slower than Agi-anything.

Smeargle lead AgiPass is decent but it's not some unstoppable behemoth.
 
nidoking lead is total ass considering the number of zapdos leads. but okay, you delay that a bit.

dual phazers actually don't stop it. in your given scenario, yes i would gladly take the sleep on raikou, because now jolteon gets free passes. it's also one less thing for charizard to worry about. there's no way scizor gets a slot on the team before jolteon. are you suggesting triple phazers?

the 4 mandatory mons are jolt, smeargle, wak, lax. the other two slots are sort of flexible: charizard, poliwrath, quag, scizor, zapdos, gengar, espeon, clefable etc doesnt really matter.
 

Lavos

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nidoking lead is total ass considering the number of zapdos leads. but okay, you delay that a bit.
I agree with the remainder of your post, but Nidoking lead isn't actually too bad right now. I've been playing a lot of games in the past 2 weeks and a LOT of people are playing hyper-offensive teams with lead Exeggutor to threaten a T1 boom on Zapdos. Also, Raikou is still a relatively common lead, as is Cloyster for whatever reason.

I think I'm more in the Jorgen boat as far as Smeargle is concerned - in my opinion, there's too much stuff that renders it completely ineffective. But you're right in saying that when it works, it's virtually unstoppable.
 
dual phazers actually don't stop it. in your given scenario, yes i would gladly take the sleep on raikou, because now jolteon gets free passes.
the 4 mandatory mons are jolt, smeargle, wak, lax. the other two slots are sort of flexible: charizard, poliwrath, quag, scizor, zapdos, gengar, espeon, clefable etc doesnt really matter.
You might have said that to begin with.

there's no way scizor gets a slot on the team before jolteon.
I meant that Smeargle poses at most the threat Scizor does once something's already asleep.

are you suggesting triple phazers?
Skarm/Kou/Missy isn't terrible tbh.
 
i did.
i'm not saying smeargle/jolteon are giving zapdos and shit a run for their money, but compared to something as "potentially" useless as umbreon i think it's somewhat comparable. compared to stuff in their own tier: houndoom shits on ptrappers and exeggutor, sure, but does he potentially WIN THE GAME [more than] half the time turn 1? and golem? golem has never been on a tier 1 team in his life. espeon -- as much as you and i or the next guy like him, has never really made a splash on the meta at all. and won't for the foreseeable future. same with clefable and pgon2, stuff that's been around forever but has never made it. agipassing with smeargle + jolteon to lax + wak is a legitimate top tier team.
right, got that part. was too lazy to edit. if smeargle sleeps raikou (who happens to phaze), that's a job well done. what other pokemon in the game can do that?

it's not terrible, but you've also narrowed it down to pretty much one team at this point. and even then, the above scenario still stands if you get kou slept. psong is a pseudo pseudo haze against 1 turn setups, i'm sure you can figure out why this is a soft counter with good prediction at best. also food for thought: non-boosted eq from wak is close to a 1shot on missy.

there's actually also no reason why you can't fit a spiker on the np team, since it puts stuff like cloy, lax, cune, lix etc into ohko range.

yes you can beat the team with some odd mixture of heracross, raikou, quagsire, gengar, cloyster or some shit. yes you can run 4 phazers and totally neutralize the sleep threat, but i don't think it's a legitimate argument anymore. that is a seriously deformed team. the only point i'm trying to make is that agi passing is a great TOP NOTCH team, and the one pokemon that makes it all tick deserves a higher ranking. not even arguing for a-tier either, just in the same tier as a bunch of nobodies thats never accomplished anything in their lives (heracross).
 
I'm saying stalls can defend against BP teams without relying solely on prediction and luck (though prediction and luck do of course help enormously). You're the one who invented offense, you know better than I whether they can kill BP teams.

I'm not saying BP can't outplay stall, but your hyperbole about Smeargle lead winning >50% of the time against any common team/play is absurd.
 

Mr.E

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AgiPass is not all that awesome. Even if you avoid getting hard stopped by Roar [Electric-resist], among other things like ST Curselax Perish Song etc. (shit's all been mentioned), you can still quite easily only kill one or two things (and 2-for-1 is barely breaking even since Smeargle is all but dead weight).

Because Smeargle is 2HKOed by everything, it either has to Agility into immediate BP to avoid dying or sleep whatever it's out against. So alright, I switch to Skarmory following Agility and you BPed out because you're not going to Spore a standard ST Raikou. ;/ What are you doing at this point, passing Agility to a special attacker? Useless. Still bringing in Snorlax and hope to hit the 75% LK, then sleep lasts long enough to boost and kill? 32% chance (five-turn sleep)... 43% even with DE > Return, which is nuts since between Drum + recoil you all but guarantee dying after two kills max. Marowak can't do shit, Charizard is shit. You need to win some serious mindgames to even set yourself for anything potentially better than that, because way too many things will beat you if they switch in on the BP turn.

Even if they switch in on the Attack boost, post-AgiPass, there are still opportunities for decent trades. You can't OHKO Cloyster or Forretress which can both Explode on you, Suicune or Skarmory who can phaze, Miltank who can PAR. You only OHKO other Snorlax half the time and Gengar still outspeeds +2 Snorlax. (Umbreon also tanks a hit and Heracross can tank one from Marowak, but neither threaten to stop the sweep.) Reflect will screw you too if Smeargle switched into anything that carries it.

*shrug* I don't think the risk outweighs the reward, since you can just have SD Wak or Drumlax setup and kill something on their own anytime. That's kinda their schtick anyway. Sure, passing them +2 Speed can turn that one kill into a full-team sweep but it's way harder to setup over three turns than one. It's not worth wasting the moveslot on Agility, and especially not the team slot if your team isn't set to take good advantage of the shit Jolteon and Smeargle are actually good at passing (Growth and trapping, respectively).

Unfortunately, trap Smeargle is all but nipped in the bud by PO autobanning Sleep Trapping, even in casual matches, and still being the preferred simulator for old gens. I reiterate my call to push for PS, since obviously NetBattle's bugs will never be fixed. :(

golem has never been on a tier 1 team in his life. espeon -- as much as you and i or the next guy like him, has never really made a splash on the meta at all. and won't for the foreseeable future. same with clefable and pgon2, stuff that's been around forever but has never made it.
Hey man, I used Golem until I kept Exploding on anything and everything because Explosion is too fucking good (except I still needed Golem for other purposes.). And P2 is legit as fuck, it's just... not Snorlax. But then neither is anything else.
 

Jorgen

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MrE said:
So alright, I switch to Skarmory following Agility and you BPed out because you're not going to Spore a standard ST Raikou. ;/ What are you doing at this point, passing Agility to a special attacker?
Clearly you go to Jolt, which subsequently passes to something dangerous as Skarm runs away. Although Skarm just comes right back in and only gives you a single Rock Slide barring a flinch, and then you lose all momentum. Lax comes in if you try to set up Jolt with Agility, Smeargle doesn't get back in easily, it's a real mess for the Agi-Pass player to get back on top, although certainly not impossible.

to Borat: When using that team, I never ran Sub on Smeargle. That just feels pretty bad to me though, I mean that's another turn of setup and it's trivially easy to break its subs, so it just seems like a waste of 25% health. As for countering them, I believe I would generally let my Phazer (e.g., Tyranitar) take a sleep, then switch out to Cloy or something as Smeargle passes out. Jolt probably comes in, so I'm forced to go to like Egg or ST Curselax as he passes to Marowak because Lax can't KO fast enough. Okay, so then Cloy again as Marowak probably SD's (hopefully, if I Egg'd, it just HP Bugs like a coward). Then pray for no flinch. Following the boom, my own Lax comes in and gives the BP team fits.

So yeah, that is pretty much a (conditional) 30% chance of winning right there, I shoulda played it through before dismissing that claim. And Charizard does complicate things quite a bit in that scenario if I go Egg, although Charizard is complicated for that sort of team to deal with anyway. Granted, if the 30% thing doesn't work out, you're scrambling to get back in position, so Smeargle is probably a 70% chance of like, flat-out not winning.

Plus, when using agi-pass for myself, Skarm pretty much shuts it down as I mentioned above. The thing about Skarm, too, is it's frequently paired with a second Phazer, meaning Smeargle Spore will probably catch the second phazer, and Lax LK won't be possible if that happens. SelfDestruct does fix that though...
 
clearly you go to jolteon for an immediate follow up bp. of course, you can send skarm right back into a +2 wak, but skarmory has never been a reliable stop to marowak. surely you of all people have played enough marowak to realize that. at this point, you still have sleep clause in your favor.

i guess what was a bit unclear on this is smeargle isn't really doing anything amazing purely on his own, but it's really his ability to complement jolteon and to make jolt passes that much more threatening that really shines through in the consistency department. on his own, he's not breaking many teams single handedly (although it can still happen, quite often actually in practice, but just not in these idealized scenarios). ultimately, this is a vouch for both pokemon to leave "meganium-tier".

substitute is the best move in that slot imo. blocks explosion from spike starters, potentially luck out against thunder, blocks para/sleep from shit, leech seed's annoying too, etc. you don't NEED to use it, but it's an extra level of mind game your opponent has to worry about.

curselax is actually a pretty big issue for any agi passing, especially the sleep talk kind. but that's why you have 2 other slots on the team. miltank works fine to keep shit healthy, charmbreon can keep the pass going. mean look is probably pretty good on this team now that i think about it.

even in your description, giving yourself a 30% chance to win from the get go is pretty good no?

edit: since i haven't done this, here's my opinion, let me know what you disagree with:

S: main criteria - ubiquity. you basically have snorlax + at least one electric on every team because that's how gsc's played.

notable:

Snorlax

others:

Zapdos
Raikou

A: main criteria - versatility. pretty much every team in existence can probably make use any of these pokemon and be just as good. most of these pokemon offer both offensive and defensive utility, and therefore can adapt to any team/meta.

notable:

Exeggutor
Cloyster
Skarmory

others:

Suicune (notable maybe)
Vaporeon
Steelix
Gengar (maybe notable)
Nidoking
Tyranitar
Miltank
Marowak
Starmie

B: main criteria - metagame defining. something here is a reason why certain sets exist, why certain pokemon are popular in the first place. they've done something. they have the potential to be devastating given an advantageous meta shift, but they're not as adaptable to unfavorable metas as the pokes in tier A. most of these pokemon are a one trick pony though.

notable:

Forretress (might deserve higher to A)
Misdreavus (might deserve higher to A)
Machamp (might deserve higher to A)
Jolteon (half the reason you run roar raikou in the first place)
Blissey

others:

Dragonite
Umbreon
Rhydon
Heracross
Smeargle

C: main criteria - the "almost theres", pokemon who seem to have the potential but have never actually done anything to change gsc because for one reason or another, they fall short. or the niche they occupy is just too damn small to be worthy of anything.

notable:

Porygon2 (probably to B if Rhydon/hera's in B tbh)
Kangaskhan
Espeon (probably not that notable)
Charizard (potential B class, but i feel biased)

others:

Tentacruel
Houndoom
Golem
Meganium
Muk
Quagsire
Clefable

Dropped

Ampharos (this pokemon sucks in ou, be serious guys)

so the differences would be:

marowak from B to A (not too strong of a case, since i have machamp in b. but i do think wak is a step above machamp. a significant step at that.)
jolteon from C to B (come on dude, whats with the hate? jolteon's a big pain in the ass)
smeargle from C to B

and there’s no real argument for ampharos.
 
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lol forgot how wrap worked. Yea anyway...

was gonna suggest ampho doesn't belong earlier, but felt jorgen was tired of making changes. It's completely outclassed by the legends.

Don't like agil pass smeargle idea though. if it works then go for it it, I just think jolteon is way better at it. Smeargle too gimmicky.
 
jolteon struggles to pass vs steelix phazers, it relies on hitting it on the switch with hp water or predicting the eq vs roar once steelix gets in. moreover, it simply CANNOT pass vs raikou.

alternatively, smeargle can get off a pass against ANYONE. spore is a one shot deal, but agi-pass is a game ending combo against a lot of teams. absolutely NOTHING gimmicky about this. if anything, the spikes-mirror coat "standard" is a total gimmick.
 
Roar raikou has to rest at some point, but if he's also got steelix then yea there's almost no hope.

I've seen like 2 smeargles and they didn't do anything lol. Wouldn't some good player have made this thing work by now?

Losing just 1 pokemon 70% of the time vs 30% free win or whatever seems good on paper, but GSC is really hard with 5 pokemon. Cool idea but it's gonna fail.

Since we're on the topic though, I'd do fire blast for the 4th move. that way worst case scenario you waste a spore on there non-phazer you can at least hit steelix and skarmory. lol though i think smeargles attack stats might be a little too low. thunder-wave maybe, then you can pray on the 25%. Sub only seems to work on a dumb exeggutor.
 
you have to force raikou to rest before jolteon gets compromised himself? jolt passing falls flat against raikou. it's great if all you've got is a skarm.

I've seen like 2 smeargles and they didn't do anything lol. Wouldn't some good player have made this thing work by now?
apparently not. that's the whole point of this discussion.

Losing just 1 pokemon 70% of the time vs 30% free win or whatever seems good on paper, but GSC is really hard with 5 pokemon. Cool idea but it's gonna fail.
apparently not. that's the whole point of this discussion.

i'm gonna pass on the fireblast suggestion. sub should be better than either of those by a good margin, because situational > never usable imo. protect might be an alright 4th to ease prediction. then there's the more practical spikes, which is better than nothing.
 

Jorgen

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Smeargle should never run attacks. Waste of a turn.

Standard Smeargle should definitely be AgiPass, as that's the most dangerous. I think the other MC/Spikes set needs to exist to bring Smeargle's success rate high enough to hype it like this though. With the alternate set being a thing, opponents might hesitate to send in their Phazer (generally also a Snorlax counter) to activate Sleep Clause. In the scenario I brought up, that's a legit insta-win instead of 30% if I hesitate to let Ttar take Sleep.
 
if anything, the spikes-mirror coat "standard" is a total gimmick.
What is this set?

I have never heard of Mirror Coat on Smeargle. I have heard of Spikes on it, but was of the opinion that it's a complete gimmick and vastly inferior to Spore + BP. What is this about some garbage Spikes/Mirror Coat set being standard on it?!
 
mirror coat smeargle would definitely catch me off guard, but is it ever killing anything?

i think it's spore, spikes, mirror coat, recover? lol 'standard' smeargle.
 

Bedschibaer

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Mirror Coat Smeargle hits electrics, especially Zapdos which is quite likely to stay in and just get off a Thunder. I wouldn't use that to be honest, there are different ways of getting rid of the electrics, ways that can actually switch into attacks, something Smeargle can't do at all. Baton Pass is the only thing Smeargle is worth using for imo.
 
while i do agree that mc/spikes/recover or whatever's listed on smogon is an absurd set, i don't agree that spore + bp, or in this case agi-passing, being his only viable set. while still a bp set, he's the only other pokemon capable of trap-passing, which in a lot of cases is also potentially an instant game win. so one set forces you to go to your raikou, while the other, you'd like raikou to stay away from the spore. in both cases he's threatening to win the game outright. hm. sounds totally gimmicky alright.

nothing ohkos smeargle. although on the flip side, very few stabs fail to 2hko smeargle. iirc even miltank/cloy?
 
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nothing ohkos smeargle.
Machamp, Marowak and HP Fighting Heracross beg to differ. DynamicPunch from Ttar/Nite also OHKOs.

although on the flip side, very few stabs fail to 2hko smeargle. iirc even miltank/cloy?
Miltank and Cloyster fail to 2HKO if Smeargle has Leftovers.

Yeah I did forget the TrapPass set. SleepTrapPass is brokenly good but usually banned (and incidentally does fall under "spore + BP"); normal TrapPass isn't as good but is still somewhat okay.
 
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Mr.E

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Incidentally, Smeargle is one of the few things you would reasonably not put Leftovers on.

The problem with Smeargle is that you have to convert two kills with it just to break even, to make up the fact that Smeargle itself is basically useless on its own. That's not easy to do because even if you trap and kill something, you take one hit to trap and Smeargle's dead next time. Even if you get an Agility passed off to Marowak/Snorlax, your opponent could still have Cloyster, Gengar, etc. (and they probably do if they don't have a way to just stop the setup in the first place) and manage to get out of it 1-for-1.

On that note, maybe Smeargle is underexplored as a utility Spiker. The only problem there is that as useless as Cloyster/Forry would be without Spikes, they at least have Explosion to all but guarantee still taking something down with them. DBond, Counter, Mirror Coat are less reliable at getting an effective trade since the opponent has control over triggering them. Spore's still pretty nice though.
 
Iirc there is no unboosted special attack that ohkos Smeargle, Zapdos Thunder maxes out at roughly 90%.
Pikachu's Thunder has a chance to OHKO, not that anybody cares. Otherwise you're correct.

EDIT: Thought this deserved something.

Forretress works fine against Snorlax if you run Reflect. It just gets shit on by Fire Blast even harder than Skarmory/Steelix but it's not like either of them are "countering" Fire Blast Snorlax either. Hell, Steelix is even weak to Earthquake so it slowly gets worn down by any non-mono 'lax.
Issue with Forry is that you can't do the "safe play" of sending in [Steel] vs. unknown Lax and just phazing. Skarmory and Steelix are somewhat safe there because they aren't OHKOed by Fire Blast, and even if it hits them on the switch you can switch to something else and it's still only +1 (or +0 if they predict wrong and FB again). With Forretress, if you send it into a Lax you can't handle then a) you're straight OHKOed, b) nothing's stopping them from Cursing up to +6 first and FBing you on the turn Reflect wears off. Forretress is dead, and soon you will be too.
 
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Jorgen

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Looked at this for the first time in a month. To rehash an old point, at first glance, Jolteon not in B seemed really weird. Then I thought about the descriptions and thought, nope, was totally right about it being in C. Baton Pass just hasn't proven to be more than a famous gimmick in GSC, and it's certainly a support-dependent gimmick at that, often with a specific team (often lacking in defenses) built around the tactic.

Same goes for Smeargle, who is even more dependent on BP.
 
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