Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

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Alex, plz update thread.

Also, What do you guys think about Mega Slowbro and S-Rank? Some of the problems I see with it moving to S is that Thundurus-I and Greninja can seriously check it (plus I'm weird and still run Taunt on thundy), and if you aren't running CroBro it is also prone to Toxic stall.

Its positives however are really something else. First off, with 95/180/80 Mega Slowbro is an absolute WALL of a Pokemon. IIRC, the only physical attacker in OU that can safely wall-break it is Mega Heracross, which isn't as common as it used to be in XY. Once it sets up a few calm minds even Special attackers can't touch this thing AND its awesome base 130 special attack can actually turn it into a pretty potent sweeper. Its ability Shell Armor was joked about once it was first revealed but in all actuality, preventing Crit hax is a pretty nice thing to have, as now MegaBro will always reliably do its job without fearing RNG BS.

I can understand if it doesn't go to S Rank, but I would say that A+ rank is certainly fair.
 
Alex, plz update thread.

Also, What do you guys think about Mega Slowbro and S-Rank? Some of the problems I see with it moving to S is that Thundurus-I and Greninja can seriously check it (plus I'm weird and still run Taunt on thundy), and if you aren't running CroBro it is also prone to Toxic stall.

Its positives however are really something else. First off, with 95/180/80 Mega Slowbro is an absolute WALL of a Pokemon. IIRC, the only physical attacker in OU that can safely wall-break it is Mega Heracross, which isn't as common as it used to be in XY. Once it sets up a few calm minds even Special attackers can't touch this thing AND its awesome base 130 special attack can actually turn it into a pretty potent sweeper. Its ability Shell Armor was joked about once it was first revealed but in all actuality, preventing Crit hax is a pretty nice thing to have, as now MegaBro will always reliably do its job without fearing RNG BS.

I can understand if it doesn't go to S Rank, but I would say that A+ rank is certainly fair.
Life Orb Breloom also 2HKOs assuming you get an average of 3 bullet seed hits in two turns. I'd say A+ for MegaBro now, maybe S if people find other effective sets (modest 3 atks + slack off is something I've heard of)
 

AM

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M-Slowbro is fine at A+. For the most part its not a very centralizing force in the metagame and its really just more of the fact you need to have a consistent check for it which isnt exactly that difficult. I'm also speaking off of all the sets that are available such as crobro, double dance, and offensive variants just to name a few. I find it similar to talonflame where it has a variety or options but noticeable flaws that can be exploited so thats my short opinion on it.
 
Slowbro is really, REALLY annoying, but not on the level on unmanageable. It has a mediocre typing and can be beaten with a Taunt user or a phasing move. It can be a real threat if you let it set up, and it does get a lot of free turns, but a there are things that stop it.
That being said, if you don't have a Taunt or Whirlwind / Roar user on your team, you're pretty much screwed. It's so irritating when you end up being swept by it. It has stellar bulk and it's pretty much the face of stall other than M-Sableye. There are things that can stop a sweep, but these Pokemon are far and in between, and not every team is going to run them.
I think just Mega Slowbro's defensive presence alone is worthy of S rank, or maybe even further.
 

Albacore

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The big problem with Slowbro is that it's always going to lose to something, and though it can function against different matchups well, it can't do well vs all at once. Slack Off is great vs offense especially if paired up with Iron Defense, but it falls flat on its face vs stall and some balanced teams since they often carry Toxic which completely shuts Sableye down. RestTalk is very good vs bulky teams but has trouble vs offense since Rest means the opponent just has to 3HKO you as opposed to 2HKO you (also, it can't wall threats as well in general becuase you have to Rest every time you take a hit). Another problem with Rest is that it's really unreliable, and more often than not enables opposing CM sweepers such as MGuard Clefable and MSableye to beat you 1v1.

And there are still very reliable anwsers to the CM set no matter what it runs: Mew, Mega-Gardevoir, Unaware CM Clefable, CM Mega-Latias, Celebi, Sub MGyara, Sub/Refresh DD MAltaria, Mega-Sceptile (well Leaf Storm has a chance not to OHKO I guess but 75% of the time it switches in and wins), Choice Specs Magnezone, there are probably more. However, this is assuming you're running Calm Mind, as opposed to Slack Off 3 Attacks which is actually pretty underrated and should be, if anything, the reason it moves up if it does. But CM Slowbro is just taken advantage of way too easily imo. Every playstyle has its way of dealing with it : Offense generates enough momentum to not let it set up in the first place, Balance uses a powerful wallbreaker to smash it, and Semistall/Stall just phazes it, taunts it, or boosts alongside it and beats it (it doesn't help that the 3 other big CMers, Sableye, Clefable and MLatias, all beat it).

Ultimately, whatever rank Mega Sableye ends up being, MSlowbro should be ranked lower than that, because while it's better as a wall, it's not as good a CM sweeper and it's provides far, far less utility. The greatest opportunity cost of running MSlowbro is that you can't run MSableye, and that's a pretty huge cost when you consider that the types of teams both of these are used on are generally the same
 
A bit late but...

Gliscor is fine where it is imo. Not much seems to have changed in terms of what it checks/counters, and based on my recent experience with it, it plays similarly to landorus-t. It's essentially Lando-T with status absorption and Taunt at the cost of its immediate offensive capabilities. As AM mentioned, Gliscor does find itself in bad situations when up against something like Mega Gyarados who can potentially setup and sweep. This may just be how I use Gliscor, but I essentially use it as a Lando-T that can break stall with Taunt and U-turn. Unless you're running a SD or stalling set, these two moves are essential to have on Gliscor, and they give it a means of maintaining momentum and while shutting down potential setup sweepers, defoggers and clerics. Sets with Substitute, Protect or Roost seem to be really ineffective in this metagame.

I still think Gliscor is excellent in this meta because of Taunt and Poison Heal alone. It doesn't fit on quite as many teams as Landorus-T, but it certainly does have a niche of its own.
 
A bit late but...

Gliscor is fine where it is imo. Not much seems to have changed in terms of what it checks/counters, and based on my recent experience with it, it plays similarly to landorus-t. It's essentially Lando-T with status absorption and Taunt at the cost of its immediate offensive capabilities. As AM mentioned, Gliscor does find itself in bad situations when up against something like Mega Gyarados who can potentially setup and sweep. This may just be how I use Gliscor, but I essentially use it as a Lando-T that can break stall with Taunt and U-turn. Unless you're running a SD or stalling set, these two moves are essential to have on Gliscor, and they give it a means of maintaining momentum and while shutting down potential setup sweepers, defoggers and clerics. Sets with Substitute, Protect or Roost seem to be really ineffective in this metagame.

I still think Gliscor is excellent in this meta because of Taunt and Poison Heal alone. It doesn't fit on quite as many teams as Landorus-T, but it certainly does have a niche of its own.
Most stalls run MegaSabeleye which sets up on glicor or Megabro which can also force it out easily. Also MG clefable and Tornadus-T among other things give it a hard time
 
I want Infenape to rise from C to B+ (or higher).
Reason for this is his Lead+ Anti lead set consisting of Taunt, Fake out, Sr, Close Combat (item focus sash).
Running Sr+ Taunt+Fake Out enables it to both be an lead while also preventing other sr leads from setting sr.
Stuff it can do:
Mamoswine gets 2hkoed by fake out ü CC, not being able to lay Sr.
Garchomp gets taunted
Terrakion gets Fake outed and then you have a 50% chance to kill it with CC before he does something else. If you lose that tie thogh you can still just go for CC and lay your rocks after you killed him.
Very important: It can beat Lopunny leads thx to having access to an faster Fake out on turn one. Mamo and Terr cant do this and Garchomp needs full def investment for it.
It can fake Out Landuros-t leads to see if they are sr and leftovers or scarf. it can than even taunt sr variants, something the other leads would wish being able to do.
The only things that prevent it from setting sr are:
Sash lead aerodactyl with taunt (never used)
sash lead Vesprit with taunt (rare)
msableye (is a problem)
mdiancie (wasnt ever used as an antilead against me, but i think it could be a problem, not sure though)
Latios (never used against my infernape but has faster defoq)

A rise from C to B+ sounds maybe a bit high, but considering that Garchomp is in A thx to its shitty Lum Berry Lead, i find this actually not too far-fetched.
 
qways B+ is way too high of a suggestion especially with just lead Infernape. While on paper scarf Infernape can be potentially better than Scarf Keldeo (takes out exactly the same Pokemon they are supposed to do with a set of Fire Blast / Hidden Power Ice / Close Combat but Infernape has U-Turn and can also check Mega Metagross better) and if Greninja were ever to go away I could see a mass rise in Infernape usage since one of Keldeo's niche will be kind of null and void. Until then, I think C+ is fine, and I doubt even if Greninja goes I still don't see Infernape going past B thanks to his frailty but I guess I'm just speculating.
 
Why too high with "just a Lead set". Deo-D was Banned just for its lead sets and the other 3 common leads are a+(garchomp) and a (mamo and terra). And in direct comparisen infernape beats mamo and terra while he has a diffrent role compared to Garchomp. I may will provide replays if more are so ignorant, even though his role is not so versatile that it should be able to see what it does even without replays. Imo it can only rise to B if the jump is too high but you totally underestimate it.
Ive never mentioned a scarf set (and never used one), so i dont get why you mention it, focus on the lead set pls.
 
Why too high with "just a Lead set". Deo-D was Banned just for its lead sets and the other 3 common leads are a+(garchomp) and a (mamo and terra). And in direct comparisen infernape beats mamo and terra while he has a diffrent role compared to Garchomp. I may will provide replays if more are so ignorant, even though his role is not so versatile that it should be able to see what it does even without replays. Imo it can only rise to B if the jump is too high but you totally underestimate it.
Ive never mentioned a scarf set (and never used one), so i dont get why you mention it, focus on the lead set pls.
You sound really hostile, I'm not offended but I just want to inform you that.

The lead Infernape set you have mentioned is incredibly niche and basically is only for when teams need a lead that isn't weak to Mega Lopunny. Garchomp in general provides Stealth Rocks and is much more consistent than lead Infernape will ever be thanks to superior natural bulk and able to provide a nice win conditions for stall teams as well thanks to Garchomp's nice STABs and the ability to break Mega Sableye. I only brought up Scarf Infernape because it's easily the best set in the meta right now.

Oh, also, Deoxys-D had so much bulk and was able to set up BOTH hazards while being able to prevent opposing hazards. Deoxys-D was essentially a core on HO teams especially when combined with Bisharp which basically destroyed most stall teams and Hyper Offense also didn't have a lot for it. Deoxys-D defined an entire playstyle with this and was thus S ranked before getting banned.
 
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AM

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Why too high with "just a Lead set". Deo-D was Banned just for its lead sets and the other 3 common leads are a+(garchomp) and a (mamo and terra). And in direct comparisen infernape beats mamo and terra while he has a diffrent role compared to Garchomp. I may will provide replays if more are so ignorant, even though his role is not so versatile that it should be able to see what it does even without replays. Imo it can only rise to B if the jump is too high but you totally underestimate it.
Ive never mentioned a scarf set (and never used one), so i dont get why you mention it, focus on the lead set pls.
Yeah pretty sure quickbobhero knows what he's talking about considering he has used it extensively and even provided the 6th gen analysis for it. The thing about stuff like garchomp and deo when it was OU was they multiple traits on top of the lead sets that established their ranking. People are perfectly aware of the lead set since about 4th gen so no need to be so brash about it. One of the reasons thats it isnt lower is because of the stalbreaker set so C+ is perfectly fine.
 
The Infernape lead set you have mentioned is incredibly niche and basically is only for when teams need a lead that isn't weak to Mega Lopunny. Garchomp in general provides Stealth Rocks and is much more consistent than lead Infernape will ever be thanks to superior natural bulk and able to provide a nice win conditions for stall teams as well thanks to Garchomp's nice STABs and the ability to break Mega Sableye. I only brought up Scarf Infernape because it's easily the best set in the meta right now.

Oh, also, Deoxys-D had so much bulk and was able to set up BOTH hazards while being able to prevent opposing hazards. Deoxys-D was essentially a core on HO teams especially when combined with Bisharp which basically destroyed most stall teams and Hyper Offense also didn't have a lot for it.
Garchomp doesnt outclass Infernape, becaause Garchomp only provide rocks, while Infernape provides AND prevents rocks. Its maybe better when it comes down to solely providing rocks which its logical, since Infernape uses 3 of its moveslots to prevent rocks while garchmp uses 4 moveslots to set rocks. However tell me how Garchomp.

-beats terra leads 50& of the time without terra doing anything back.
-beats mamoswine without Mamoswine doing anything back.
-prevents other garchomps from setting rocks
-doesnt get outrigth taunted by other terra leads.
-doesnt get beaten by Fake out Lopunny leads.
-doesnt get beaten by weavile or greninja or any other fast ice type attack user thx to garchomp relying on lum berry instead of focus sash.

Of course Infernape isnt able to beat msableye tentacruel and bulky starmie, wich garchomp can, but as mentioned, it uses his moveslots to do other shit that Garchomp cant due to their diffrent roles.
If anything, Infernape needs to be compared to Terrakion, Vesprit and and Aerodactyl, cause those are the other Lead + Antilead mons.
And compared to those it stands out in having Fake out which enables it to beat mamoswine and mlopunny, what the other antileads cant.
But whatever, this is my last post to this subject, if you dont want it to rise then it wont, probably better for me if other players dont use it.
 

alexwolf

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The way I interpreted it, based off what Alexwolf said, was that those changes only applied as long as Mence was still legal. The post Alexwolf made a few days ago:

Made it sound like we are starting from scratch.

Key words there being until Mega Mence's fate is deicided by the OU council.
Yeah, anything we decided when Mega Mence was in OU is obviously subject to change.
 

chimpact

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Infernape is just inferior to Azelf/terrak in setting up hazards and preventing them. Lead greninja is rare unless your team is weak to it or your opponent is inexperienced. Like there are so many sash leads why risk your greninja [A WIN CONDITION most of the time] just to bring your opponent's lead to its sash.
Azelf is faster while terrak deals with offense much better.

garchomp might not be able to prevent rocks but it sets up an SD on most stealth rock setters so it deters them from going for rocks in that aspect. it's essentially pick your poison. go for rocks and lose your mon or lose rocks to deal damage to chomp. I'm simplifying this a lot but thats basically how it goes.
 
Most stalls run MegaSabeleye which sets up on glicor or Megabro which can also force it out easily. Also MG clefable and Tornadus-T among other things give it a hard time
Gliscor isn't the only thing in OU forced out by Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro, and the SD set actually puts in work if you're up against Mega Sableye or MG Clefable. But uncommon sets aside, U-turn is excellent in those situations for A) predicting the m-sableye and getting instant momentum or B) U-turning to a counter so the opponent can't take advantage of an obvious switch to gain momentum. Furthermore, Clefable and Mega Slowbro do not want to switch in on a Taunt. It prevents them from setting up and recovering until they switch out again, giving you an immediate advantage. That is, assuming you have something that can take Slowbro/Clefable's unboosted attacks with ease. Which you should.
 
Z Been silent for a while - 444 post nice

Alright, I have a question why can no one see how Mega Sharpedo is an amazing cleaner and should move to B rank? Residual damage is so easy to stack up over time in matches when this metagame is forced off of switching and Stealth Rock wearing down threats. In addition to this, Volt Switch and U-turn all have positive synergy with Mega Sharpedo - Azumarill, Keldeo, and Clefable, the main switch-ins on offensive teams are all pummeled by residual damage + U-turn. On the Volt Switch side, we have Ferrothorn and other stuff, but that's not the point - look at the metagame and see the great users of moves like this along with possible Spikes support. Mega Sharpedo will never come until late-game unless their is something standard to revenge kill (therefore will stay in base form), which makes the opponent try to keep their checks alive which are simply easy to wear down or your opponent will have to sack something every time this thing comes in if they don't bring something with similar switch-ins to play. For example, SD Garchomp, easily Mega Sharpedo's best partner, can set up Stealth Rock to stack up residual damage or setting up Swords Dance to play with Mega Sharpedo's counters which they both have similar switch-ins for. Mega Sharpedo easily cleans weakened teams, and the power behind STAB Adamant Strong Jaw Crunch is ridiculous while having amazing neutral coverage while turning other Mega Slowbro in to a liability at times unless it gets a lucky burn. No one is going to send this thing in to MEvo until its checks are weakened which is so easy to do

Speaking of the power of its STAB Crunch, Mega Sharpedo is a pain for stall teams as well. It looks ridiculous, but Crunch has zero switch-ins against stall teams. Your opponent is forced to bring something to take massive damage repeatedly and Mega Sharpedo can always switch out again. Chesnaught is the only thing that can reliably switch-in to the move a long with Clefable, but the former can be caught on the switch by Ice Fang or repeated switch-ins for Crunch with Chesnaught means Ice Fang will catch it with all this prior damage. Clefable rarely finds a position on stall and speaking of this, the decline in Mega Sharpedo's checks make it even easier to pull off a sweep. I can testify to Jukain and Albacore (i hate tagging ppl and using appeal to authority but wutev) by using Mega Sharpedo against their stall teams and Mega Sharpedo was the most valuable 'mon in this match for just SPAMming Crunch. Mega Slowbro stall has no chance...e.e list goes on.

Overall, Mega Sharpedo is threatening to all playstyles alike and is effective in OU. It should move up.
 
Garchomp doesnt outclass Infernape, becaause Garchomp only provide rocks, while Infernape provides AND prevents rocks. Its maybe better when it comes down to solely providing rocks which its logical, since Infernape uses 3 of its moveslots to prevent rocks while garchmp uses 4 moveslots to set rocks. However tell me how Garchomp.

-beats terra leads 50& of the time without terra doing anything back.
-beats mamoswine without Mamoswine doing anything back.
-prevents other garchomps from setting rocks
-doesnt get outrigth taunted by other terra leads.
-doesnt get beaten by Fake out Lopunny leads.
-doesnt get beaten by weavile or greninja or any other fast ice type attack user thx to garchomp relying on lum berry instead of focus sash.

Of course Infernape isnt able to beat msableye tentacruel and bulky starmie, wich garchomp can, but as mentioned, it uses his moveslots to do other shit that Garchomp cant due to their diffrent roles.
If anything, Infernape needs to be compared to Terrakion, Vesprit and and Aerodactyl, cause those are the other Lead + Antilead mons.
And compared to those it stands out in having Fake out which enables it to beat mamoswine and mlopunny, what the other antileads cant.
But whatever, this is my last post to this subject, if you dont want it to rise then it wont, probably better for me if other players dont use it.
Dude youre literally arguing against one of the biggest Nape fanboys the world has even seen and even he acknowledges the issues of Nape (You know I love you anyway Quick). I personally really enjoy using Ape but is certainly not B+, heck, not even B-, in the current ORAS meta, too many things outspeed and KO and it just stuggles in general to make a big enough niche. In XY it was much better and should have been higher than it was but whatever.
 
Dude youre literally arguing against one of the biggest Nape fanboys the world has even seen and even he acknowledges the issues of Nape (You know I love you anyway Quick).
Actually 2 of them since Chimpact chimed in, so yes, even biased sources know Ape is flawed.
 
is gengar still a+ worthy? the 3 atks taunt set isnt as big a pain in the dick as it was in XY.
It got even better imo. Ghost is still the most spammable stab. Poison STAB is better than ever especially when your other stab is super effect againt metagross and jirachi. 110 speed is still very good.
Could you elaborate on how it got worse?
 
110 speed is still good, yes, but it gets outsped by a lot of things. It certainly did not get better with all of the speed creeps going on.
It's really not A+ anymore, I think A would suit it fine. It's two STABS are fun to spam, but it's still not as good as it was in XY, and if really doesn't hit hard enough without a Life Orb. And then, you're slowly worn down with recoil. Not to mention that Gengar is extremely frail and dies to a lot of things. Something it has a problem with it SubDD Mega Dos (if that's still a thing) since it got Crunch this Gen. It's getting a lot more common on the ladder and Gengar is pretty useless against it. And that's just one thing worth of note. It really should move down to A.
You can't base your entire argument stating its walls and saying that because of that, it should drop. I'm not saying you did, but when you said "and that's just one thing worth of note" it sounded like you were headed in that direction. Gengar's Poison STAB is now more viable than ever with all of these fairies running around (such as Mega Altaria/Gardevoir) and the Ghost STAB can wreck Megagross if used correctly. The speed creep hasn't exactly been in its favor but it's not really going against it too much either imo. Gengar is still deadly and I think it's definitely still A+ material. Even if it has a few stops it still wrecks much of the meta.
 
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