Gen 2 GSC Viability Ranking (OU)

[Isa]

Machamp Hidden Power Ghost vs. Gengar: 166-196 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- 93.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Machamp Earthquake vs. Gengar: 238-280 (73.6 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Machamp Hidden Power Ghost vs. Exeggutor: 136-160 (34.6 - 40.7%) -- 56.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

it's something!!

 

[Jorgen]

The most compelling argument for EQ is actually Muk. Gengar is hit by HP Ghost (which also still 2HKOs Toxic'd Starmie), Nidoking and Tentacruel just get Cursed past, and Raikou doesn't even resist CC. Granted, that's considering how Machamp beats things that might switch into him; EQ allows Machamp himself to switch into those guys, or at the very least makes a simultaneous switch-in a much better matchup. Still, is it worth the lost wallbreaking potential on your... um, wallbreaker?

 

[magic9mushroom]

Spin Cruel (which is how we got to talking about Machamp) has room for Barrier (which also helps soak Explosions) so Curse isn't going to help. EQ is decisive there.

I showed a while back that the max-min CurseChamp set is actually CC/DE/HP Ghost, but IIRC that'll get past Tentacruel in a hurry too. Oh well whatever. I think this started with Jorgen wondering whether to drop Starmie to B or keep it A; could we get back to that?

 

[Royal Flush]

Starmie is a weird case where I feel like it's terrible compared to most A mons but overall more consistent than most of B stuff. If you want personal experience, though, 90% of my time using Starmie I just felt it was a sitting duck. Really. I wouldn't mind giving up on Explosion on Cloy if I wanted a spinner so desperately. Recover is a good excuse I guess (and something that differs from Tentacruel), but still it offers almost nothing offense-wise, isn't a big wall like Cune and is a huge Snorlax magnet.
About Machamp, it's just a super safe option against it. I mean, there are alternative ways to beat Champ. I heard attack moves work.
Seriously though, it's not about beating Champ, but if you keep a good aggression, he most likely won't be able to switch. Stuff like Eggy is a good B plan that's also useful on doing other things.

My final opinion will be B rank, but I won't really complain if it stays A.

 

[Mr.E]

TBH I always figured EQ on Machamp was more for having a 100% hit rate option, especially against Raikou because hoping Cross Miss doesn't..., and also hitting Nidoking who is more common than shit-ass Tentacruel (or Muk). I never use it, because Rock Slide is more necessary for Zapdos (who is better and more common than everything else short of Snorlax) and then I prefer having Hidden Power because everyone uses Starmie or whatever expecting my Machamp. Body Slam isn't a bad option either for the PAR.

...Double-Edge? u w0t m8

 

[Jorgen]

Dude, he found that was the best set. With the power of math.

I also found the best set for Ttar with math. It needed Crunch to beat Wobbuffet.

Basically, the lesson you should take away from this is that uniform priors aren't actually very good!

 

[magic9mushroom]

...Double-Edge? u w0t m8

As I said, it's maxmin-optimal (among OUs as well as among all Pokemon). HP Ghost hits Gengar, Missy, Egg and Starmie pretty hard, but then (assuming you're running Curse) you have only one move to cover both Zapdos and Nidoking. Double-Edge hits both neutrally, whereas Rock Slide leaves you in trouble vs. Nidoking and Earthquake leaves you helpless vs. Zapdos.

In practice it's kinda shit because the 3HKO on Zapdos unboosted and 2HKO after Curse that Rock Slide gives is so huge that it outweighs having some issues with Nidoking. I do think HP Ghost is probably the best fourth, though.

 

[Xeze]

I'm personally not a fan of DE on Machamp. The recoil hurts and he only has lefties for recovery. If going with a normal move there, I'd go with Body Slam (getting paras on Zapdos and Nidoking is always good).

 

[magic9mushroom]

I'm personally not a fan of DE on Machamp. The recoil hurts and he only has lefties for recovery. If going with a normal move there, I'd go with Body Slam (getting paras on Zapdos and Nidoking is always good).

Neither am I, as I said.

 

[jaQ]

Yea starmie does seem to either sit there or save your ass. It stops some threats like marowak, curselax (starmie with reflect, most curselax don't use blam), zard, rhydon, tyranitar, etc. however it's never the best counter for any of those exept maybe charizard. lol. Also it's usually one unlucky ch away from being ohko'd and most people that use starmie depend on it too much. Once their starmie dies they crumble. It's one of the best at spreading light screen/reflect. It feels like an A- or B+ so whichever tier is fine. Personally I'd like to see it demoted to B cuz I have trouble killing it.

 

[MoxieInfinite]

Jorgen do you still think Smeargle is C rank and that full BP is too gimmicky? :D

 

[Jorgen]

That's what I'm trying to find out!

tbqh my 2 wins so far are off psyche-outs / chokes. Which is probably enough in its own, mindgames are part of pkmn after all.

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

I know I'm probably late, but I'm here anyways.

In my opinion, Blissey should be moved from B Rank to C Rank. The blob dies to many, if not almost all physical attacks and really can't attack too well, so -2 there already. It sponges special hits, but special attacks aren't nearly as important as they were in gen 1. Heal Bell and softboiled are really its only saving grace, and Miltank does heal bell 10x better. Miltank can also deal with mixed attackers better (ie. Kingdra), and stops the almighty Curslax with Growl. Blissey can't do crap to Snorlax. Couple that with a bad attacking movepool, a mediocre support movepool, and pretty much requiring the perfect team to be even slightly usable, and you got an outclassed poke that is somehow in OU, but shouldn't be in OU.

 

[Isa]

Blissey does Heal Bell much better (it's worse at everything else though!) and nobody uses Kingdra. It's not a mon I like to use but it is good enough for B. You are underrating the ability to soak special hits.

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

I know no one uses Kingdra, a better example is Nidoking (or queen, either works). Now, if it were gen 1, Blissey would definitely be top class, as special hits are super important in gen 1. However, it isn't, and thus it suffers. Name me one OU Pokemon (that isn't Raikou or Zapdos) that has >100 special attack. It's decently difficult, as there are only 5 (6 if you count Starmie, and I'm not counting that since it is support) Pokes with more than 100 special attack (of course, not including Raikou and Zapdos), one of which is never used in OU (Porygon2) and one who is used for support (Jolteon). That leaves you with 3 pokes: Exeggutor, Gengar, and Vaporeon. Gengar can perish trap Blissey to kill it, and is a mixed attacker with pseudo stab (because Game Freak gave it Sneasel syndrome) and Dynamic Punch. Exeggutor can also explode on it knocking it outta the game. So it leaves you with one pokemon, Vaporeon. This thing is bad, really bad. It needs to move down to C asap (there are reason two posts above this one and this post).

 

[Bedschibaer]

I don't really get why you'd exclude the electrics from your argumentation. Nowadays EVERY serious gsc team has one of them, that's at least one poke on every team that blissey can hardwall and in zapdos' case it's often one of the main sources of offense for a team that gets flat out neutered. Blisseys main niche is to be able to come in on special attackers (and the electrics are the most prominent ones, mind you) and get off the heal bell/toxic/light screen/whatever. It's not the most versatile role but it gets it done incredibly reliably. Not having to worry about other special attackers is a thing that is worth mkre than you are giving it credit here. You are also underestimating blisseys ability to tank hits generally. Since you named Nidoking - Earthquake is only a 3hko. You'd either have to sleep blissey or crit it to even get close to killing it. Gengars Dynamicpunch isn't a 3hko either and its explosion has a 20% chance to fail killing blissey. This matchup is kinda iffy because Gengar isn't just relying on throwing out damage. Explosion is a one time move that costs you a mon if you target the wrong thing, perishtrap gengar is basically a gimmick, dpunch isn't good odds in actually beating bliss, etc, you get the point. That also applies for other usual special attackers with explosion, Eggy and Cloyster, both need to blow up to be able to pass bliss. Cloyster doesn't always carry explosion, eggy often targets other things to blow up on. Walling the 3 growth Eeveelutions (especially with lightscreen) is rather big too.
Honestly i'm not a fan of blissey myself at all, it has big problems in being way too passive, being wide open for snorlax switchins, it's actually not hard to stall out, etc. It is the best Heal Beller in the sense that it has its targets where it will always get off the bell against, and those are on every single team. I woudn't say it's the same case with miltank as lax has options to abuse it. Blissey is worse than many things in B rank, but it's also better than pretty much all of the C ranks imo, dropping it doesn't make too much sense for me but I see where you are coming from.

 

[Jorgen]

Yeah Bliss is legit, if a bit limited in its role. So what if Egg and Gengar can beat it with Explosion? Does that DQ Raikou from being A rank too?

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

actually no,

Blissey is so little used now (at least I think, I haven't played gen 2 OU in a while), that it barely makes a difference of Raikou's (and to an extent, Zapdos) ranking. If Blissey were to rise in popularity, then maybe it would make a difference. Also Bedschibaer, the reason why I excluded the electrics is because their on every serious GSC team in existence, seriously, their usage is only eclipsed by Snorlax, who is on every GSC team period. So yeah...

 

[Jorgen]

Right. Electrics are everywhere, which means that's a huge matchup to be good at. Excluding them when evaluating a Pokemon's worth doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[Mr.E]

Personally, I always find it hard to use Miltank as my cleric because on the occasions I want to build a team with one it's always weak as shit to Zapdos with Miltank in that slot. Blissey can use Growl too to "not lose" to Snorlax, the real reason Miltank is better against Snorlax is because Snorlax can't switch into it at 15% and still get a Rest off.

Zapdos can actually beat Blissey but I don't think anybody's used Drill Peck on the thing (not counting HP ban environments) since I stopped rolling with T-Wave. :(

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

I get you E, but how is your team weak as all hell to Zapdos with Miltank? Miltank is better with mixed attackers. lel

 

[Borat]

what was mr.e's original team?

zap wak bliss umbreon zam and gengar?

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

I actually don't know, but then again I've never played his team (mainly because I haven't done serious Gen 2 OU in a while).

 

[Ortheore]

I get you E, but how is your team weak as all hell to Zapdos with Miltank? Miltank is better with mixed attackers. lel

Most mixed attackers are primarily physical attackers that are not bad at using special attacks to beat physical walls. They tend to have lesser special attack stats and often no STAB on their special attacks. Given that, it's understandable that Tank does well against most mixed attackers.

Zap does not resemble what I described above at all. STAB Thunder from base 125 SpA is the most powerful unboosted special attack in the tier, and Miltank's lackluster SpD means it is very much threatened by Zap.

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

oh, ok. I get it. I think Miltank is on a speed tie with Zapdos though, so it might deal some damage before Zapdos could potentially 2 or 3 hit.
Zapdos Thunder vs. Miltank: 191-225 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- 47.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And if Miltank gets para'd, it could just heal bell (assuming no crit) and the speed wars start again.
Assuming Thunder doesn't miss, Zapdos would win, but thunder does, and Miltank could win.