Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

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bludz

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I agree with Sylveon dropping but going unranked is taking it a bit far. I mean yes LO Clefable has more coverage and can switch moves (which counts for a lot) but Sylveon is more of a nuke. For example a defensive Lando-T can switch in and stomach a hit from LO Clef without too many problems whereas Specs Sylveon is gonna pretty much bury it. Ok generally Lando isn't the mon you want as your switch-in but in real game scenarios, if you don't need your Lando for anything else you may use it as such a switch-in to try to get some damage off with EQ or SD up to prevent a CM sweep.

The niche of being much more powerful right off the bat is significant enough when you consider that it has just enough coverage to neutralize a number of its potential switch-ins and many others can be taken advantage of by common partners to Sylveon such as Medicham. This is also not really considering stuff like fully specially defensive cleric sets and CM + BP sets - very niche admittedly but a sum of these parts leads me to believe Sylveon should still be ranked in some capacity.

I also agree that Dugtrio should be C+ - trapping is a very powerful mechanic and Dugtrio is capable of removing big time threats like Mega Diancie aside from the obvious Heatran / Ttar.
 
EDIT: ninjad, but I'll leave this here anyway I guess since I said a lot... :P

Wow, never seen so much bandwagoning in my life. Since when did "it uses choice items" make something totally unviable? The whole 'what does it do that Garde/Clef can't' thing is just confusing, people are comparing them as if every clef has a all of Life Orb, Fire Blast, Focus Blast, recovery, status and calm mind, and that every M-Garde gets all four of it's useable attacking moves (HV, Psyshock, FB and SB) alongside all of it's utility. You can broadly compare viability of mons with similar roles in that way but not when talking to a mon like Sylveon with essentially one set (specs) that puts it on it's current rank... I'm skipping over the defensive set because I agree that if you're using that you should probably use Clef instead or even Togekiss unless you specifically want to shoot through subs with Hyper Voice which isn't enough really, BUT when talking about the specs set, shitting on Sylveon because it can't do all 17 things that Clef/Garde can at once while being a wall-breaker is just useless.

So, on that note, comparing wall breaker to wall breaker there are definitely good reasons to use this over Clef/M-Garde on certain specific teams. For a start its STAB hits harder than both of them with it's specs. Heck, certain offensive steel types (read - Mega Metagross, Excadrill) can't switch in on this twice. While it's missing certain coverage moves that it would like, it can just about find what it needs to hit most things that it needs to - and, seeing as people are already on the 'poor coverage' bandwagon, since when was being walled by either a choice of Ferrothorn/(healthy) Skarm or Heatran (depending on Sylv's chosen Hidden power of Fire/Ground) enough reason to make something totally unranked? It's gonna be choice locked most of the time anyway so being walled by something isn't the biggest issue when it's not usually staying in more than a turn at a time. People are comparing this to LO Clefable but last I checked Clef couldn't beat certain Tran or Ferrothorn without a good prediction on the switch either regardless of what coverage moves it gets and also couldn't switch in, so sure it beats its checks in more situations but just having issues with two of the premier defensive mons in the game isn't really a convincing reason to completely unrank something thats already quite low anyway. With Garde, sure Sylv misses some utility but it still hits harder with it's STAB and works around a couple of the same checks on the switch with certain coverage moves, and well Sylv is so many ranks lower already for a reason anyway so nobody's under massive illusions by the fact that it's ranked.

So yeah, valid niche over things ranked higher than it = reason to use on specific teams = reason to have it ranked. Maybe it could go lower but can people stop bandwagoning the unrank thing just because its a mon that they've not recently found a good enough reason to use?
 

MANNAT

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Ferrothorn A+ to S

Ferrothorn is definitely the best Stealth Rock setter in the game. It has an excellent defensive typing, excellent defensive stats, and it has Iron Barbs. Because of its low Speed and high Attack, Gyro Ball hits incredibly hard too.It tanks many things in the metagame and is a good option for almost any team.
Uh no... Ferrothorn has weaknesses to common attacking types like fighting and fire, is liable to getting trapped, is really passive unless it runs dual stabs, cant take special hits from sweepers at all unless they're resisted or weak, and gyro only hits hard against offensive pokemon. Ferro is still an excellent mon, but it's certainly not S rank.
 
Bisharp should also not go to S. Checked/countered by common things like Defensive Lando-T, Garchomp, Keldeo, ScarfTar (with Superpower), Suicune, Tangrowth, Zard X, etc.
 
My Nominations:

Azumarill:
A+ to S

Belly Drum sets are a nightmare. It makes it one of the best, if not THE best setup sweeper in the metagame. Because of Aqua Jet, it kills a lot of the metagame too. It doesn't have many flaws at all and is great if you need a good offensive partner.
Bisharp A+ to S

It's by far the best revenge killer in the tier. It's able to kill almost the entire metagame if played right. Not only that, but it's also the meta's best Pursuit trapper, and a great Swords Dance sweeper too.

Ferrothorn A+ to S

Ferrothorn is definitely the best Stealth Rock setter in the game. It has an excellent defensive typing, excellent defensive stats, and it has Iron Barbs. Because of its low Speed and high Attack, Gyro Ball hits incredibly hard too.It tanks many things in the metagame and is a good option for almost any team.

Landorus-Therian A+ to S

It's maintained the most used Pokemon in the metagame for the past few months, and for good reasons too. Choice Scarf sets are devastating, it's an excellent Swords Dance attacker, and it's a very good Stealth Rock setter. 145 Attack is also amazing and if you combine that with either Choice Scarf or Swords Dance, it's a monster. It also has good coverage and it works well with VoltTurn cores.

Weavile A to A-

Compared to other sweepers in the metagame such as Landorus-Therian, Talonflame, Garchomp, and Mega Lopunny, Weavile just isn't that great. It's flaws are just too crippling to make it A. It gets walled pretty easily, and its frailty makes it super hard to use. 4x weakness to Fighting and Stealth Rock weakness isn't doing it any favors either.

Garchomp-Mega B to B+

Why is this so low? It has excellent defenses, a good typing, and it's a good Stealth Rock setter. It's also a good Swords Dance sweeper, and even without Swords Dance, it hits incredibly hard. Also, it's one of the best stallbreakers in the meta too.
Okay, while some of these have a leg to stand on, most of your nominations are seriously lacking in value. I'd first like to say that from what I've observed, Azumarill's best set is choice band. While belly drum is not bad by any stretch, it can't reliably sweep unless all faster water resists are removed, and even then, fat, fast pokemon such as tankchomp can eat an aqua jet and usually KO back if Azumarill has taken some damage while setting up, which between BD recoil and just plain attacks it usually will have. Bisharp, while obviously an extremely potent force in the metagame, is still shut down by what is arguably the best offensive mon in the tier, Keldeo, and struggles to set up consistently with the abundance of bulky ground types in OU. Sucker Punch causes way to many mind games for Bisharp to be considered the "best revenge killer in the tier"

Your ferrothorn nomination is, in my opinion, easily the most flawed out of this bunch. Ferrothorn is obviously an important and good hazard setter in OU, but it being the "best" would imply that ferrothorn is definitively better than other hazard setters such as Heatran, Landorus-T, garchomp, and skarmory, which is debateable in the case of most of these and outright false in the case of others. Despite generally being a solid answer to bulky waters, it fails to stop keldeo, unlike celebi and amoongus, and is also horribly crippled by burns. Furthermore, lack of reliable recover also is a major downer that keeps ferrothorn from switching into threats like Kyu-B and Latios reliably. On a related note, those same dragons can simply run HP fire and quickly run through ferrothorn is one or two hits. No, ferrothorn is definitely not S rank material and likely won't be unless fire type moves become much less common.

Your last three nominations, while not being as "out there" as the first three are still horribly short and are rather poor arguments, especially in the case of Weavile, which still remains a very potent threat due to its ability to easily run through Garchom and Lando-T, some of the most common pokemon in the metagame. I suggest you try to do more upper level play before brazenly suggesting that certain pokemon are bettor or worse than they really are and refuting the knowledge of upper level contributors and players.

Edit: Bisharp is not the best Pursuit trapper in the tier. In fact, it's not really that good at all when it comes to trapping because some psychics, like alakazam and starmie, can outspeed and easily OHKO it. Weavile and Choice Scarf or Band Tyranitar are generally better options overall.
 

HailFall

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Garchomp-Mega B to B+

Why is this so low? It has excellent defenses, a good typing, and it's a good Stealth Rock setter. It's also a good Swords Dance sweeper, and even without Swords Dance, it hits incredibly hard. Also, it's one of the best stallbreakers in the meta too.
Mega chomp typically does not have room for stealth rock as it wants dual stab, sd, and fire fang (unless you want to run that horrid mixed set but i think its honestly outdone by LO). mega chomp has high opportunity cost over other megas, as it doesnt put in very much work against offensive builds, it needs sand support to reach max potential, its slower than pre mega, and it lacks any priority. That said mega chomp does have quite a few positive attributes that keep it from being bad, but i think considering the downsides of using it mega chomp, it really should stay in b.
 

Punchshroom

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I agree with Sylveon dropping but going unranked is taking it a bit far. I mean yes LO Clefable has more coverage and can switch moves (which counts for a lot) but Sylveon is more of a nuke. For example a defensive Lando-T can switch in and stomach a hit from LO Clef without too many problems whereas Specs Sylveon is gonna pretty much bury it. Ok generally Lando isn't the mon you want as your switch-in but in real game scenarios, if you don't need your Lando for anything else you may use it as such a switch-in to try to get some damage off with EQ or SD up to prevent a CM sweep.

The niche of being much more powerful right off the bat is significant enough when you consider that it has just enough coverage to neutralize a number of its potential switch-ins and many others can be taken advantage of by common partners to Sylveon such as Medicham. This is also not really considering stuff like fully specially defensive cleric sets and CM + BP sets - very niche admittedly but a sum of these parts leads me to believe Sylveon should still be ranked in some capacity.
I mean Sylveon's immediate power is kind of tasty and all, particularly against stuff like Gliscor, but from a teambuilding perspective I still can't really fathom when I'd really consider using this thing. When was the last time anyone recommended Sylveon to anybody?

Suppose the Mega slot is already occupied by a non-Fairy in order to narrow down this argument. Even as a holepuncher, Sylveon has poor Speed, no priority, no boosting move, no (reliable) recovery, and rather lackluster coverage to back up its one-trick pony-like playstyle. At this point, even Goodra has more merit as a specially bulky holepuncher since it can actually effectively make use of its resists. At this rate, the only real scenario in which I can envision myself using Sylveon is a particularly painful way to punish Mega Sableye, but considering the kind of teams Mega Sableye is found on, Sylveon usually ends up only threatening Mega Sableye in particular while MSab's teammates can sponge up Sylveon's attacks, which further weakens its niche. A LO Clefable with an example moveset of say, Moonblast + Focus Blast + Ice Beam is far more capable at pressuring most MSableye builds than Sylveon is (I didn't deem Fire coverage necessary as its primary target would be MScizor, which obviously cannot be used on MSableye teams. Jirachi can be a notable target I guess but that can at least be Pursuited).

Edit:
No way in hell can LO Clefable spam Moonblast and deal at least 40% damage to almost everything that doesnt 4x resist fairy (Heatran), unlike Sylveon. Specs Sylveon works like Specs Hoopa-U to an extent. Leave Sylveon where it is.
I've already addressed the power issue earlier, but comparing Sylveon to Hoopa-U of all things is pretty ridiculous considering Hoopa-U is the best at what it does, whereas Sylveon is not. Better comparisons to Sylveon would be something like Staraptor and Tyrantrum, which boast the strongest attack of their respective category (Flying and Rock) in the whole tier but don't have as much advantages as their competition. However, the fact that they have very little competition outside of Mega Pokemon, or in general, is most likely what allows them to maintain their ranking.

Sylveon on the other hand has to contend with so much other capable, consistent, and most notably 'uncostly' Pokemon, and its sole niche relies on opponents not having good Fairy resists in the first place (considering how bulky OU's Fairy resists are), which would otherwise leave those players wide open to a whole host of other Fairy-types in general. I'm not exactly advocating to unrank it outright, but Sylveon definitely shouldn't stay where it is atm.
 
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Martin

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OK so I'm gonna chime in on this whole Sylveon thing by comparing it in its role as non-mega fairy to something which is currently unranked: Gardevoir. Please note that I am not currently nomming Gardevoir. This post most likely will sound like a nomination post, so I'm just clearing that up before we start so that people don't take this the wrong way. Now that that is out of the way, I guess I'll begin.

This is a Pokémon which I have been using a fair chunk over the past week for two reasons: 1. FlamingVictini's set is heat AF and hits harder than its mega on its non-Fairy-type moves and 2: because it is achieving a lot of what Sylveon is struggling with. The key thing that Sylveon has going for it is the ability to nuke stuff, but this comes at the cost of being completely walled by a different steel depending on your choice of Hidden Power and being unable to break past Chansey at all. Now take Gardevoir, who has access to an actually-useful coverage move in Focus Blast, which allows it to beat a large chunk of steel in one moveslot and it can choose between Will-O-Wisp, allowing it to catch Scizor switch-ins alongside Focus Blast, or Taunt, allowing it to beat Chansey 1v1. Add this to its higher speed stat and access to Trace and it is something which has honest-to-god been more consistent for me than Sylveon has ever been as a result. And then there is its Specs set, which is less consistent than LO but I have also used a little and will compare to Sylveon from the context of it being a specs user. At the cost of its fairy STAB being weaker and at the cost of Baton Pass, its Psyshocks are stronger, its coverage is better (it can go three-move with Focus Blast+Trick or it can go 4-move with Focus Blast+Shadow Ball), its speed is higher and, with Trick, it is able to catch switch-ins to it such as Skarmory, Chansey etc. and cripple them for the rest of the match. For both of its sets, Trace is really useful for its utility on both offense and balance due to it allowing it to come in on Manectric on the turn it megas to cockblock its Volt Switches in conjunction with its good special bulk and to directly benefit from them, whereas Sylveon's utility is really, really limited by comparison due to the combination of its shitty movepool and lack of defensive utility with its ability, and, as bad as Cleric Sylve and Garde are, for what its worth Gardevoir has access to all of the clerical options that Sylveon has (don't use Wish tho) as well as Healing Wish and Memento, which further improve its utility on offense and balance.

The reason I have brought this up is because it is much more powerful than Clefable (for reference, this thing hits as hard specially as Bisharp does physically) and as such makes for a much stronger comparison than it does. While I'm not necessarily nomming Gardevoir right now, the fact that I am finding an unranked Pokémon more consistent has raised red flags for me. This time last month I would have defended Sylveon's rank, but honestly I don't really see much reason to use it having messed around with other options since. tl;dr: drop or unrank Sylveon
 
Just saying, I think generally if a Pokemon is unviable but bound here by tiering restrictions, said mon should be ranked (even if its E-rank like down in RU or D-rank in UU and Ubers). Things that Sylveon has over its competition are its sheer power, the fact that it doesn't take up a mega slot, BP and the fact that it has noticeably better special bulk. The main niche is its sheer power while not taking up a mega slot like Mega Gardevoir. Obviously that niche isn't big enough to justify its position in C+ so yes drop it.

Does that mean that this Pokemon is unviable? No. It can be a formidable foe if it receives the support it gets and its combination of unique traits should warrant a spot in the viability rankings. I'd say C- where it can be best buddies with Absol, a mon that it just as overshadowed.
 
OK so I'm gonna chime in on this whole Sylveon thing by comparing it in its role as non-mega fairy to something which is currently unranked: Gardevoir. Please note that I am not currently nomming Gardevoir. This post most likely will sound like a nomination post, so I'm just clearing that up before we start so that people don't take this the wrong way. Now that that is out of the way, I guess I'll begin.

This is a Pokémon which I have been using a fair chunk over the past week for two reasons: 1. FlamingVictini's set is heat AF and hits harder than its mega on its non-Fairy-type moves and 2: because it is achieving a lot of what Sylveon is struggling with. The key thing that Sylveon has going for it is the ability to nuke stuff, but this comes at the cost of being completely walled by a different steel depending on your choice of Hidden Power and being unable to break past Chansey at all. Now take Gardevoir, who has access to an actually-useful coverage move in Focus Blast, which allows it to beat a large chunk of steel in one moveslot and it can choose between Will-O-Wisp, allowing it to catch Scizor switch-ins alongside Focus Blast, or Taunt, allowing it to beat Chansey 1v1. Add this to its higher speed stat and access to Trace and it is something which has honest-to-god been more consistent for me than Sylveon has ever been as a result. And then there is its Specs set, which is less consistent than LO but I have also used a little and will compare to Sylveon from the context of it being a specs user. At the cost of its fairy STAB being weaker and at the cost of Baton Pass, its Psyshocks are stronger, its coverage is better (it can go three-move with Focus Blast+Trick or it can go 4-move with Focus Blast+Shadow Ball), its speed is higher and, with Trick, it is able to catch switch-ins to it such as Skarmory, Chansey etc. and cripple them for the rest of the match. For both of its sets, Trace is really useful for its utility on both offense and balance due to it allowing it to come in on Manectric on the turn it megas to cockblock its Volt Switches in conjunction with its good special bulk and to directly benefit from them, whereas Sylveon's utility is really, really limited by comparison due to the combination of its shitty movepool and lack of defensive utility with its ability, and, as bad as Cleric Sylve and Garde are, for what its worth Gardevoir has access to all of the clerical options that Sylveon has (don't use Wish tho) as well as Healing Wish and Memento, which further improve its utility on offense and balance.

The reason I have brought this up is because it is much more powerful than Clefable (for reference, this thing hits as hard specially as Bisharp does physically) and as such makes for a much stronger comparison than it does. While I'm not necessarily nomming Gardevoir right now, the fact that I am finding an unranked Pokémon more consistent has raised red flags for me. This time last month I would have defended Sylveon's rank, but honestly I don't really see much reason to use it having messed around with other options since. tl;dr: drop or unrank Sylveon
Having not used non-mega Garde I can't comment on whether many of your points are valid or not but regardless you still acknowledged the niches that give Sylveon it's rank. Its Fairy STAB does hit harder, it does get Baton Pass (and a heck of a lot more bulk, at that), and again it has Hyper Voice over regular Gardevoir which has the minor (but existent) benefit of hitting through subs.

I'd like to add that while Specs is of course the go-to Sylveon set, assuming it has max SpA investment it gets just as much power as specs after 1 CM (more, if it has Pixie Plate although Lefties is just as viable) and then has the ability to switch moves and the ability to keep setting up on things like Blissey. Sure it's not an ideal CM'er because it doesn't get many chance to set up it only really needs one and then it can threaten a shit ton of stuff and that solves the whining people are doing about being choice locked. It misses out on BP sure but tbh it's not losing coverage over the specs set given that they usually only take three moves and BP anyway. Not saying 3 attacks CM Sylveon is great but it's certainly a possibility which means some of the niches you claim Garde has over it aren't totally there anymore, sure Garde probably does most of those things better anyway but Sylveon can still do them.

I'll say it again, sure move it down a notch or two but I've never seen such an unbalanced argument on an unrank bandwagon in my life - people are literally just listing what other things to better than it and ignoring the actual reasons to use Sylveon. Like, sure, don't build a whole team around it, but there are definitely situations where Sylveon is a good inclusion in a team after you're already picked your core around a mega. Few, but some.
 
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Sylveon is an interesting case. Despite the fact that:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 166-196 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
this happens its heavily weighed down by its low speed, shallow moovepool, being outclassed by M-Garde and almost always choice locked. Its only savior is that it is not a mega, which means you can have a fairy nuke alongside a mega of your choice. While it definitely has a viable niche considering the popularity of megas, C+ is a bit to high for it considering this is the rank of pokemon like Zygarde who can actually pull their own weight without much support. Sylveon, while it can work, needs the support to do so. So, where do we demote it? D is too low, thats the place where Pokemon need an entire team just so they can pull of their minimal role. Now you have C and C- left. However C- is a bit of a stretch, look at Mega Absol. It has a minimal niche in being insusceptible to status for the cost of a mega, and it also has bad defenses. Now is Sylveons niche so low? No it isn't. This is because Sylveons niche is very useful, that is being a fairy nuke, and it is not as outclassed as M-Absol, as in the fact that its eclipsed by a mega, in whose place another mega could've supported given team better as a whole. So from a different angle its like this: Sylveon is an addition to the team: it pulls weight with minimal expectations, and M-Absol needs an addition to it: it needs support to function. So C is the best place for it, and this is proved by the fact that this is the home of Magneton and M-Bannete, a similar case in which it is outclassed however it has a niche that may support teams better than their superiors.
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Sylveon to unranked? seriously? It's an amazing nuke, and it's niches are certainly better than all of D rank (bar Shedinja who's in a unique case). How are Shaymin and Nidoqueen (both C-) more viable than this nuke? It's ridiculously powerful, and despite the awful shortcomings of it's speed, is still a very useful pokemon. It's niches over other fairies:

Clefable: Sylveon nukes things, Clef doesn't hit anywhere near as powerful.
M-Garde: Not a mega, has baton pass.
M-Diancie: As above.
M-Alt: As above.

So comparing it to the only other non mega in the tier (Clefable), as that's the fairest comparison, it has very sizable niches. Aside from that, being used in conjunction with another mega is good enough for a rank. Yes if you were megaless and wanted a fairy nuke you wouldn't use it, but you're not going to be in that situation if you're using Sylveon, you going to have 1-2 slots left, need a wallbreaker, possibly a slow Volt-Turner and want a fairy type because it's a very good typing, Sylveon fits all those in 1 and isn't really niche like some of the things ranked here in the past. There is no way it should go lower than C-, and I think it should be in C.
 

HailFall

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Sylveon to unranked? seriously? It's an amazing nuke, and it's niches are certainly better than all of D rank (bar Shedinja who's in a unique case). How are Shaymin and Nidoqueen (both C-) more viable than this nuke? It's ridiculously powerful, and despite the awful shortcomings of it's speed, is still a very useful pokemon. It's niches over other fairies:

Clefable: Sylveon nukes things, Clef doesn't hit anywhere near as powerful.
M-Garde: Not a mega, has baton pass.
M-Diancie: As above.
M-Alt: As above.

So comparing it to the only other non mega in the tier (Clefable), as that's the fairest comparison, it has very sizable niches. Aside from that, being used in conjunction with another mega is good enough for a rank. Yes if you were megaless and wanted a fairy nuke you wouldn't use it, but you're not going to be in that situation if you're using Sylveon, you going to have 1-2 slots left, need a wallbreaker, possibly a slow Volt-Turner and want a fairy type because it's a very good typing, Sylveon fits all those in 1 and isn't really niche like some of the things ranked here in the past. There is no way it should go lower than C-, and I think it should be in C.
Tbh I would definitely prefer to use like honchkrow, chandy, or mienshao over this trash-- they actually have niches that make them usable. Literally the only reason to use it is that it hits harder than clef and has bp but clef has good recovery, a good movepool, Magic guard, and tons of other good shit like that. Most teams have a fairy resist and anything that resists fairy walls sylv unless it happens to be packing the right coverage because it's coverage is essentially hidden power which makes you chose between hitting zor, tran, or talon, while lo clef can click one of its many coverage moves that can break common fairy resists. If I wanted a nuke I would much rather run something that's actually difficult to wall like Staraptor, but that's just me.

What we're left with after all this is sylveon having passable power and Baton Pass, not much else. I'm hesitant to say unrank because new players might not understand that unranked = worse than D and assume it was forgot about or smth Idk. So yeah, sylv to D.
 
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I'm going to change the subject and nominate Mega Heracross to A-.

It's a terrifying wallbreaker with good bulk, a good defensive typing and unlike other fighting wallbreakers, it isn't forced out by bulky Psychics or Mega Sableye. It has a fairly good matchup against sand too. Lots of would-be checks are useless when Mega Heracross is behind a substitute. It can no longer be burned, it can't be revenge killed and it can't even be intimidated. It has trouble against the omnipresent Clefable though. Epecially unaware variants. I think its benefits over other alternatives allow it to rise to A-, where it is still below a lot of its competition, but only by 1 sub-rank.
 

Albacore

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Thoughts on a few noms:

Nah. Skarmory simply isn’t as good as Ferrothorn and completely deserves to remain one subrank below it. There are 2 main reasons for this.

Firstly, the obvious fact that Skarmory is just way more passive than Ferrothorn. Ferro’s Gyro Ball and Power Whip both hit pretty hard and can be kinda tricky to switch into. Skarmory, on the other hand, usually runs Iron Head as its only offensive move, and the fact that it doesn’t even 2HKO Mega Alakazam pretty much tells you all you need to know about it. Sure, it can run Brave Bird, but the recoil from it can become a real problem, and you need to sacrifice either Whirlwind or Taunt, which, if anything, makes it even more passive. This leads it to get overwhelmed much more easily, and severely limits how much it outlast its switchins.

Speaking of which, another thing Skarmory lacks is a good way to wear down its checks. Ferrothorn’s Leech Seed can cripple pretty much any switchin bar MVenu and really helps it stay alive throughout the battle without giving free turns to dangerous stuff, all the while helping out teammates with the passive recovery. Skarmory, on the other hand, doesn’t have a move nearly as spammable as Leech Seed, Whirlwind requires hazards in the first place to wear down stuff,Toxic isn’t nearly as good in it since Heatran still comes in on you, and you lose the ability to stop things like SD Scizor and Bisharp which, once again Ferrothorn can wear down way more easily.

These two factors mean that, unlike Ferrothorn, Skarmory struggles to do more than pure supporting, and if the opponent still has a Defogger or Spinner active, Ferrothorn has much more potential to actually do things than Skarmory. Ferro also has other advantages over Skarm such as higher overall bulk, which, combined with its higher power, makes it much better in neutral matchups and last-ditch scenarios, Iron Barbs which enable it to wear down checks much more easily, and access to Thunder Wave which is a much more permanent answer to setup sweepers than Whirlwind.

Overall, despite Skarmory’s Ground immunity, reliable recovery, access Whirlwind, Defog and Taunt, and lack of a 4x weakness, it is simply not as effective and nowhere near as difficult to deal with as Ferrothorn, mainly due to the fact that it cannot pressure the opposing team or outlast its checks anywhere near as much. It may be just as if not more splashable than Ferrothorn, but in practice, it's far more of a momentum drain and simply doesn’t pull its weight as often as an A+ rank should.

Raikou and Manectric should probably drop as well, the rise of MLatias balance as well as Sand causes problems for both. I still think BoltBeam is very strong vs hyper offense, but that playstyle is on a bit of a decline at the moment, which spells bad things for both these Pokemon. I suppose you could argue that VoltTurn is particularly good right now, which it is, but since Rotom-W is pretty much the Volt Switch user of choice for those teams, there isn’t really that much room for either of these Pokemon.

Thundurus is an interesting case. Unlike Manectric and Raikou it doesn’t really struggle that much vs balanced teams, even MLatias which doesn’t take a +2 Nasty Plot too well. The problem with Thundurus is that it’s just not easy to fit on teams, especially with Sand being very popular. Even some of the less splahable A+ ranks such as Weavile and Excadrill are still easier to fit on teams due to providing a safety net against various threats, Weavile against various Psychics and stuff like Lando-T, and Excadrill vs Fairies and Electrics.

And yes, Thundurus has priority Thunder Wave, but you usually see it coming from a mile away, and the fact that it isn’t an actual attack makes it way easier to play around. There’s also the fact that TWave makes Thundurus lose important coverage or Nasty Plot, both of which are needed if you actually want to break balance teams. Its poor bulk and typing only really lets it to switch into Torn-T, and even then that’ll usually outlast it. Add a SR weakness to all that and you end up with something which, despite being threatening in theory, struggles to be called a real meta-defining threat simply because of how tricky it is to fit on teams. So yeah, A rank seems fair for it.


Sure, why not. Nidoking is a pretty solid balance-breaker and could totally move up to B-. I wouldn’t move it higher though, since it still struggles vs balance staple MLatias, and I don’t think it deserves to be in the same rank as Hydreigon (who has a way more spammable STAB and provides more defensively) or Crawdaunt (who has priority and hits a lot harder). But it is definitely better than anything in C+ bar maybe Entei.

Speaking of C+ ranks, I honestly think Sylveon should be D rank. No matter how well it actually performs in battle (and don’t get me wrong, it’s not terrible or anything), there’s barely any reason to use this thing on a serious team, even the most offensive team would rather run Clefable. Sure, you can totally argue that it hits harder than Clefable. And though that’s an advantage over it, it’s not really a niche. Any scenario where running Sylveon over Clefable actually pays off (like bludz’s Lando-T scenario) is overshadowed by the many, many scenarios where it doesn’t, to the point where you’re realistically almost never better off running Sylveon.

The reason I don’t think it should be unranked is because of Baton Pass. I’d argue that this, and not its greater power, is Sylveon’s real niche over Clefable. Baton Pass on the Specs set enables Sylveon to get frail attackers in for free which, granted, is barely a reason to run it over Clefable given how many advantages the latter has over it, but it’s still definitely something. I’d even argue that its best set (or rather, most legitimate set) is Calm Mind+Baton Pass, and even though Celebi generally does that stuff better, there’s still a few valid reasons for running it, and that gives it a legitimate, though minor niche which is at least enough for it to be ranked. But yeah, Sylveon is garbage otherwise.

Finally, I think Mega Heracross can probably move to A-, though we may want to wait for the verdict on Hoopa-U, since its presence or not in the metagame does influence this nom a bit. Regardless, MHera performs pretty well in the current metagame due to the prevalence of bulky offense. Being able to actually eat up hits from some of OU’s top threats gives it a big advantage over other wallbreakers, not to mention the fact that it is really hard to wall and completely anihilates stall.

The the bulky set in particular is very nice right now, not only takes hits really well (it survives stuff like Latios’s Psyshock from full) while also hitting extremely hard thanks to its Adamant nature, but it also attacks before Landorus-T’s U-Turn, enabling it to hit the switchin pretty hard instead of just hitting said Lando-T for not much damage.

MHera admittedly requires a fair amount of prediction (and bluffing in the case of the slow set), and some team support, but even checks like Talonflame, Torn-T and Latios take a ridiculous amount from CC, and MHera can pretty easily run Substitute to aid prediction, since even without SD you still just demolish stall (especially with an Adamant nature), and really pays off vs stuff like Rotom-W and Mega Sableye that attempt to status you.

It’s a really solid Pokemon which, much like Hoopa-U, completely annihilates fat teams while still providing a fair share of defensive utility, and works very well both on and against VoltTurn/TWave-centric bulky offense, which is a very good playstyle right now. IMO, as a wallbreaker, it’s about on par with Pinsir at this point in time.
 
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I don't know, I've always been kind of fond of Specs Sylveon. I used to like slapping it on balance/bulky offense teams for its ability to nuke things with Hyper Voice while using its Fairy typing and bulk to trade 1-for-1 with so many special attackers (and maybe even some physical/mixed ones). 252 SpA Modest Specs Sylveon also hits ~24% harder with Hyper Voice than the standard 232 SpA Timid Mega Gardevoir, which is hard to ignore, and it leaves you free to pick another Mega. Comparisons to LO Clefable are somewhat shaky seeing as how they're actually kinda different in how they approach offense. Sylveon is a raw power breaker that runs circles around Clefable in terms of Fairy STAB strength, whereas Clefable is more of a tactical attacker that uses coverage instead of brute force to break things. Specs Sylveon also boasts ~37% more special bulk than TankFable, which lets Sylveon duke it out against random special attackers more easily (i.e. LO Thundurus 2HKOs TankFable and takes 85% max from Moonblast, so Clefable loses if it lacks Ice Beam, whereas Sylveon takes 45% max from Thunderbolt and easily OHKOs with Hyper Voice). If anything, offensive Sylveon plays more like a Mega Gardevoir that doesn't take up your Mega slot than a stronger Clefable with less coverage.

Now, whether that's worth keeping it in C or whatever is another story. I honestly don't have much experience with the current metagame, I'll admit. I only recently started trying to play again, and even that's been sparse at best, so my opinion probably carries very little weight here. I just thought I'd toss out my thoughts for consideration all the same.
 
I still hold my stance on Sylveon dropping (D rank would be best imo), but I think unranking it is too much. Sure, it's pretty bad in OU, but I don't think it's Mega Latios bad. It can still nuke lots of things, as shown above, where it could 2HKO 248 HP Mega Scizor after rocks. Unlike Clefable and Celebi, it can run a Specs set AND get teammates in for free with Baton Pass; I just don't think it's a good Baton Passer, like Celebi. If Sylveon does drop to UU (which I am unfortunately pessimistic about because new/bad players keep using it, most likely because "muh eeveelutions"), then maybe it could go unranked, but for now, D rank should be the lowest it should go.
 
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bludz

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tigers jaw there's been some work done on these lower rankings already, and it will continue to happen. For the most part it's never gonna be a high priority though

Also been using Nidoking a bit and my initial impression is that i agree with Infernal's nom for it to rise. It's pretty threatening to switch into and has a decent enough speed tier for a wallbreaker - to me it seems more viable than Tyrantrum and co in C+

Also I have seen some arguments that Skarmory is as good as Ferro and they should share a rank. I disagree. While Skarmory has the bonuses of reliable recovery, ground immunity and access to Defog and Whirlwind, its far more passive. Ferro can legitimately dish out pain to mons like Latios with Gyro Ball, and it can annoy Heatran switchins with Leech Seed. It also has better type synergy with a lot of mons and fits onto bulky offense (the best playstyle) which Skarmory does not. It gets a chance to set up Spikes on more things IMO as well - for sure Skarm sets up more freely on a few common rockers but Ferro can Spike on more mons overall
 
I want to nom a raise of M-Slowbro to A. I saw that non mega Bro was up there and I just believe M-Slowbro has a lot of things that makes it really good right now. First off it has amazing defense in 95/180 which when paired with scald and psyshock really pressures physical mons. Scald pressures physical attackers with it's burn chance. While psyshock pressures things like Breloom and Heracross who don't OHKO anyway. Knock Off users such as Weavile and Bisharp are not checks to M-Slowbro. I don't know a physical mon that can OHKO 80 def bold slowbro. Another thing that M-Slowbro has is an amazing movepool with boosting moves such as Calm Mind, Amnesia, and Iron Defense with amazing coverage moves in dual STAB, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Signal Beam, and Grass Knot. By far it's best set is Calm Mind which is strong because the best checks are things like special attackers and CM helps vs. them. Finally, M-Slowbro can find setup on a good majority of threats such as Weavile, Bisharp, Tangrowth, Metagross, Medicham, and other physical attackers.

I think the rise of usage in things like Hydreigon, Hoopa, Serperior, M-Latias, etc is going to be difficult for M-Bro due to it's lackluster SpD stat (80). This is made up for by Calm Mind which gives would be checks a harder time. Bro is crippled by taunt (which a lot of things carry) that forces it to attack or switch out instead of setting up CM and slacking off. Status like Toxic can be countered with a Rest-Talk set that forces Bro to run one STAB. MegaBro lacks reliable recovery unlike Slowbro and Clefable which makes Taunt and Status even worse for it.

It's pretty underused and unprepared for.

So yeah it's pretty good rn what do you think
 
Choice Specs Sylveon is a boss. The only safe switch ins are Heatran, Chansey, and maybe mega Venusaur. That's really all Sylveon has going for it; its defensive set is lackluster so I'd say leave it where it is. But don't take my word for it, I'm going to get some logs, first 3 battles.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-358720267
So 1st opponent really didn't see Specs Sylveon coming...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-358722114
Sylveon didn't really do anything and I got destroyed...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-358723948
Did significant damage to an Umbreon and Scolipede (not to mention 50% to a Gengar w/o Choice Specs)

Conclusion: Maybe mid-low ladder isn't the best place to get evidence for a Pokemon's viability, but I stand by keeping Sylveon at C+
 
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Punchshroom

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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-358720267
So 1st opponent really didn't see Specs Sylveon coming...
For all the power that Sylveon boasts, it didn't manage to OHKO Lando-T so it still got to pull off whatever it needed to. After taking that EQ, a 37% Sylveon shouldn't be doing anything else, but you were fortunate enough that the opponent sent in what seems to be a Pangoro with no Speed investment to revenge kill Sylveon when he had an XZard and Keldeo at the back. Although I will be honest, I have no idea what your Sylveon's Speed investment is, since all the damage it took amounts to max damage on the 240 HP variant and min damage on 0 HP.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-358722114
Sylveon didn't really do anything and I got destroyed...
Sylveon lost you some momentum turn 1 (and subsequent turns against Bronzong) because surprise, the opponent had a competent Fairy resist and Sylveon couldn't really do shit about it. Flamethrower Clefable wouldn't have cared and would just plow through.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-358723948
Did significant damage to an Umbreon and Scolipede (not to mention 50% to a Gengar w/o Choice Specs)
Who switches Umbreon directly into Sylveon when the guy had a Skarm?? He even Knocked Off your Specs like you said, so he had even less reason to not switch in Skarm.

Conclusion: Maybe mid-low ladder isn't the best place to get evidence for a Pokemon's viability, but I stand by keeping Sylveon at C+
If Sylveon didn't manage to shine very well in low ladder, how'd you expect it to fare better in higher ranked matches? 2 out of 3 of those replays had Sylveon KO something when it really shouldn't have.

I'm sorry, but none of these replays managed to showcase Sylveon in a unique light at all. I could substitute in LO Clefable and the outcome of those matches would be largely similiar, except for perhaps in Game 2, where you'd get the early momentum instead of losing it, which could have led to your victory.
 

bludz

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I'm not really sure why Sylveon is such a hot topic other than someone nominated to unrank it. I assure you the ranking team is considering Sylveon's placement in the lower ranks. We do not need a discussion spanning multiple pages regarding a mon that is for the most part not that relevant in this meta.

I've said this before but I prefer that we do not dwell on the lower ranks. The reason for this is that a majority of people do not know what they are talking about and it leads to bad discussion, and for some reason it also ends up lasting several pages. I find it strange when these less relevant mons' viability and impact on the metagame are more interesting to posters than the near disappearance of Mega Venusaur teams and pokemon that are actually on the rise like Nidoking.

That said it's not banned to talk about lower rank mons, they are on the VR thread so of course they are an allowable topic of discussion. But please, we don't need to spend this much time talking about Sylveon's spot in the rankings. It is ultimately much less important than making sure the top half (B- and above) is in proper order. There's a lot to take care of, which is why it's important that priorities are understood.

With all that out of the way, I have a nomination.

Latias A- -> B+
This pokemon almost completely outclassed by Latios in an offensive Defogger capacity. The only real hold out is Healing Wish which can be found on Jirachi, a very popular Choice Scarfer these days. Healing Wish also presents another problem: Latias can't really utilize Recover alongside it to stick around and actually do a better job of walling Keldeo, Thundurus, and so on, which is one of the other things it actually does better than Latios. Combine all this with the increase in the viability of its Mega Evolution for a bulky mon and we're talking about Latias being an afterthought these days. I don't think A- reflects its rank very well when Latios is such a strong pokemon and there's not much reason to use a Latias instead.
 

Lord Wallace

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I want to nom a raise of M-Slowbro to A. I saw that non mega Bro was up there and I just believe M-Slowbro has a lot of things that makes it really good right now. First off it has amazing defense in 95/180 which when paired with scald and psyshock really pressures physical mons. Scald pressures physical attackers with it's burn chance. While psyshock pressures things like Breloom and Heracross who don't OHKO anyway. Knock Off users such as Weavile and Bisharp are not checks to M-Slowbro. I don't know a physical mon that can OHKO 80 def bold slowbro. Another thing that M-Slowbro has is an amazing movepool with boosting moves such as Calm Mind, Amnesia, and Iron Defense with amazing coverage moves in dual STAB, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Signal Beam, and Grass Knot. By far it's best set is Calm Mind which is strong because the best checks are things like special attackers and CM helps vs. them. Finally, M-Slowbro can find setup on a good majority of threats such as Weavile, Bisharp, Tangrowth, Metagross, Medicham, and other physical attackers.

I think the rise of usage in things like Hydreigon, Hoopa, Serperior, M-Latias, etc is going to be difficult for M-Bro due to it's lackluster SpD stat (80). This is made up for by Calm Mind which gives would be checks a harder time. Bro is crippled by taunt (which a lot of things carry) that forces it to attack or switch out instead of setting up CM and slacking off. Status like Toxic can be countered with a Rest-Talk set that forces Bro to run one STAB. MegaBro lacks reliable recovery unlike Slowbro and Clefable which makes Taunt and Status even worse for it.

It's pretty underused and unprepared for.

So yeah it's pretty good rn what do you think
I'm pretty skeptical about this, for the opportunity cost of being a Mega, M-Bro just doesn't consistently provide enough over regular Bro to justify using it over regular defensive or even regular CM sets and then using another Mega.
Shell Armor + CM and titanic Def can make it a pretty neat win con, but it's extremely slow and even with the standard amount of SDef investment is pretty vulnerable to common stuff like Serp, Thundy, Manaphy, Manectric, Gengar, and Hoopa as it's getting set up, on top of being especially vulnerable to status given that Slowbro takes more turns overall to get going than other set up sweepers.
As a setup wincon, it's just nowhere near as consistent as it's Mega peers in A rank such as Scizor and Gyarados, and while you aren't setting up it's more than likely that you're staying as regular Slowbro for Regenerator anyway.
Nothing about M-Bro is convincing me that it needs to rise to the same rank as Serperior, M-Scizor, M-Gyara, and M-Manectric. It's fine in A-.
 
I'm pretty skeptical about this, for the opportunity cost of being a Mega, M-Bro just doesn't consistently provide enough over regular Bro to justify using it over regular defensive or even regular CM sets and then using another Mega.
Shell Armor + CM and titanic Def can make it a pretty neat win con, but it's extremely slow and even with the standard amount of SDef investment is pretty vulnerable to common stuff like Serp, Thundy, Manaphy, Manectric, Gengar, and Hoopa as it's getting set up, on top of being especially vulnerable to status given that Slowbro takes more turns overall to get going than other set up sweepers.
As a setup wincon, it's just nowhere near as consistent as it's Mega peers in A rank such as Scizor and Gyarados, and while you aren't setting up it's more than likely that you're staying as regular Slowbro for Regenerator anyway.
Nothing about M-Bro is convincing me that it needs to rise to the same rank as Serperior, M-Scizor, M-Gyara, and M-Manectric. It's fine in A-.
I see the points you made. I just wanted to see what other people thought of it. I think that it's pretty good with Tyranitar because it can pursuit checks to Slowbro like hoopa and gengar. I still think it's getting attention that it deserves.

Latias A- -> B+
This pokemon almost completely outclassed by Latios in an offensive Defogger capacity. The only real hold out is Healing Wish which can be found on Jirachi, a very popular Choice Scarfer these days. Healing Wish also presents another problem: Latias can't really utilize Recover alongside it to stick around and actually do a better job of walling Keldeo, Thundurus, and so on, which is one of the other things it actually does better than Latios. Combine all this with the increase in the viability of its Mega Evolution for a bulky mon and we're talking about Latias being an afterthought these days. I don't think A- reflects its rank very well when Latios is such a strong pokemon and there's not much reason to use a Latias instead.
I agree with this post since Jirachi is a much better healing wisher. It is hard for Latias to find a comfortable moveset since healing wish takes up an extra spot. Jirachi also is a very consistent healing wisher since it outspeeds a lot of things that Latias can't such as Tornadus, Weavile, Scarf Tar, Alakazam, Manectric, Lopunny, etc. Latias is mainly used for HW which forces the player to miss out on Strong STAB in Draco or Psyshock or Roost. It is not very good at it's job as a defogger or healing wisher considering other things like Latios and Jirachi.
 
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