Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

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MANNAT

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Most people don't even use the right nape sets is the problem. Defensive nape is arguably the best dark type counter in the tier if not THE best and can do a really solid job vs stall, being able to taunt shit like chansey and skarm while spreading status around, and also being immune to burns from msab bouncing it back. Also, the nasty plot set is insanely good vs bulkier playstyles. +2 fire blast obliterates mega sableye, +2 gknot rapes slowbro while neutral gk bodies quag, skarm and amoong are both smoked by fire blast, ttar and weavile are obviously taken out handily by fighting stab (cc, fblast, or vacuum wave), chansey is taken out by every single fighting stab quite easily at +2 bar vacuum wave. Mixed has decent utility vs offense, being able to lure shit like garchomp for teammates with hp ice among other moves. On top of that, it can function as an EXCELLENT fairy lure with gunk shot, has a great band set to use on volturn teams, and is even a really solid revenge killer with LO/Band mach punch. Obviously nape still has the same flaws as it always has, but we're nominating it for B-, not A rank rofl. Infernape is a really solid mon in the current metagame and rising up to B- rank certainly isn't unjustified as a ranking.
 
while i enjoy not being a part of the viability rankings any longer, i'm pretty disappointed on how it's all turned out. don't mind me posting here, i probably won't do it again unless i feel the need to do so. shoutouts to whoever's left holding up the fort, miss you all, but don't miss you that much kek.



amoonguss A- -> B+ no idea why this rose in the first place, but if i had to guess it's probably because of the prevalence of ladder stall. however i wouldn't rate amoonguss' utility along the likes of starmie or hippo or anything else in A- for that matter. and it most definitely is not better or worse than anything in b+. people only use this mon bcs they already have a mega and can't use venusaur. not only that, it faces competition with other popular grass types in the tier and is passive af after it's put something to sleep.

alakazam A- -> B+ alright i think we can all come to terms with how regular zam performs in this meta. sure lo zam is a threatening mon against balance and bo, but megazam does its job a lot better. there is very little justification in running regular zam on your team at all and more often than not, another mon would more than likely do better for your team. lozam is basically a slightly stronger megazam with paper-thin defenses and minus the sweet speed boost which makes a world of difference. sashzam is an extremely niche rkiller in which a scarfer or priority is usually more ideal. also i know this isn't the most accurate of comparisons, but think of what mega scizor is to regular scizor and what megazam is to regular zam. regular scizor is in B but i even think that has more utility than regularzam by virtue of its defensive typing and the minimal differences between its regular and mega counterpart. finally, everything in A- outclasses it by a landslide .__.

heracross (mega) B+ -> A- glad to see this thing is making a comeback. most definitely one of the most underrated megas and is long overdue in a rise. bulk is insane, strong as hell, requires very little support, 6-0's most stall and you get the idea.

latias B+ -> A- i understand why everyone wants to hop on the bandwagon of thinking latios is ultimately superior and latias is hopelessly outclassed which is true, but a drop all the way to B+ is somewhat of an illogical stretch. i mean, it isn't even that much outclassed by latias. what it trades in a bit of power it gains in bulk which is just ridiculous for it to drop an entire subrank. the bulk is actually a blessing for some teams since you can actually switchin into specsvolcanion, lo thund, avtorn, specskeld icywind, manectric, etc. without getting 2hkod unlike latios. hwish is just icing on the cake, and if your so adamant on defining latias for this one 'niche' it has over latios then i'd say your loss. i'd recommend building a team with dual hwish mons+scary set up mons/breakers, just might change your perspective on how you see it for what it is. not to mention that latias is better than the entirety of B+(except maybe overlord pinkblob supreme) so there's that.

gallade (mega) B -> B+ ok i get that adacham is probably the most op mega at this current junction in the meta, but that shouldn't mean gallade has to fall into obscurity. they aren't even the same in how they are supposed to function. i would also argue to great effect that a +2 gallade is much more threatening than megacham, albeit requiring support and an opportunity to set up; which shouldn't be much of a problem considering it's above average bulk and recovery in drain punch (cc is terrible and ur better off using cham if ur thinking of using cc lmao). in my humble opinion, i think adamant sd drain punch zen headbutt and shadow sneak is the best overall set it can run, but it definitely is unexplored and has a ton of other options like bulk up, stallbreaking, coverage, etc. seeing it in the ranks of the likes of mega beedrill is appalling to say the least and since most fighters like cham terrak and hera have risen, i don't see why not this.

nidoking B -> B+ nice to see that this thing rose to B, but honestly i think it deserves B+. this thing 2hkos the entire meta and is only stopped by extremely spdef walls like chansey, mew slowking, and friends. nice defensive typing lets it softcheck diancie, clef, terrak, loom and you can even run sub>flame to mitigate prediction or on a sack. why you guys put it below mamoswine and diggersby is beyond me.

sceptile (mega) B- -> B sure scept is for the most part outclassed by serp and occupies a mega slot, but i don't get why this had to drop from B to B- when serp rose all the way to A. Just because serp is good doesn't necessarily make sceptile itself more worse than it was before. fast af, exceptional coverage and decent power should be why its used in the first place. and godamnit pls don't make me bring up fking beedrill again...

omastar B- -> B ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4 (See post #1254 - Page 51) sweep summed it up pretty well, but omastar is definitely the most dangerous ss abuser there is. aside from a specs set which just obliterates almost every switchin, if you let this get a free shell smash its essentially game. this isn't impossible since oma forces so many switches and if they can't afford you to set up knowing that u are smash, then they're going to have to sack regardless. apart from ohkoing even water resists at +2 in rain, ss is especially helpful since it bypasses it's speed problem, allowing it to outspeed scarf lando and up. life orb or mystic water are viable items for it and you can run ep or ancient pwr if volcanion is a problem for you.

infernape C+ -> B- i'm kind of surprised to see this so low. offensive wise it is pretty mediocre, but infernape is a mon that shines through its defensive utility. sr taunt low kick slack wisp encore fire punch, a fire type that is neutral to rocks with reliable recovery and is able to switch into scizor, weavile and bisharp and neuter would be counters with burn? now that is indispensable. relegating this down in the ranks of C+ underscores its capabilities as it deserves better.

rhyperior C+ -> C this doesn't really wall or check much prominent threats in the meta as it used to and faces severe competition with literally every other ground type in ou. it has some cool techs to it up its sleeve but the novelty has worn off unfortunately.

tyrantrum C+ -> C same with rhyp, though it's outclassed entirely by tyranitar and really only has a niche in recoiless headsmash. though for real i'd just use cbterrak or ttar lol. it can't even function that well as a dd'r for lack of things to actually set up on.

cofagrigus C -> C+ now this is definitely a mon that deserves more usage. it goes without saying how effective its defensive utility is in the tier as well as its unique ability im mummy. defensive tspikes is a pretty sick set especially since it spinblocks, but nastyroom has to take the cake for me. albeit an unconventional win con, it is extremely deadly if given the opportunity to set up. it still is able to function as a teamplayer by spreading burns and checking a ton of physical attackers, go figure.

jellicent C- -> C+ i would say this is especially underrated right now considering volcanion+pursuit is being spammed a ton right now. but even then, jelli is still able to pull its own weight. with a simple stallbreaking set in recover wisp scald/hex taunt, jellicent is able to beat threats such as sciz azu gross keld star bro volc etc. having a colbur berry is definitely advised as it allows it to beat those pesky dark types trying to trap it, thereby eliminating their premier answer to this.

shedinja D -> C- i think this has solidified its presence in the ou meta enough for it to warrant a rise. goes without saying that it walls a lot in ou, but definitely needs hazard support and a countermeasure to the elements.

think i've covered all the important stuff for now. i was going to write about medicham -> A+, gengar -> A-, and slowking -> B+, but those 3 seem a tad controversial. i'll let you all decide amongst yourselves about those pce.
 
How about Chansey --> A-? It has a pretty nice niche in being basically the only safe Volcanion switch in in the tier rn. Unlike most of the other checks, which can be
A. easily pursuit trapped (Latis/Jelli/Slowbro)
B. Bopped by coverage moves (Gastro/Seismi/opposing Volcanion)
C. Annoyed by burns (stuff like gyara i guess)
, Chansey can switch in reliably, heal it off, and even retaliate with yellow magic. Chansey can stand up pretty easily to a lot of volc builds, and with that monster running around everywhere, it gives Chansey a huge niche, enough to be listed in A- imo
 
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HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Most people don't even use the right nape sets is the problem. Defensive nape is arguably the best dark type counter in the tier if not THE best and can do a really solid job vs stall, being able to taunt shit like chansey and skarm while spreading status around, and also being immune to burns from msab bouncing it back. Also, the nasty plot set is insanely good vs bulkier playstyles. +2 fire blast obliterates mega sableye, +2 gknot rapes slowbro while neutral gk bodies quag, skarm and amoong are both smoked by fire blast, ttar and weavile are obviously taken out handily by fighting stab (cc, fblast, or vacuum wave), chansey is taken out by every single fighting stab quite easily at +2 bar vacuum wave. Mixed has decent utility vs offense, being able to lure shit like garchomp for teammates with hp ice among other moves. On top of that, it can function as an EXCELLENT fairy lure with gunk shot, has a great band set to use on volturn teams, and is even a really solid revenge killer with LO/Band mach punch. Obviously nape still has the same flaws as it always has, but we're nominating it for B-, not A rank rofl. Infernape is a really solid mon in the current metagame and rising up to B- rank certainly isn't unjustified as a ranking.
The thing is, its being nominated for a rise when the metagame is becoming worse and worse for it. Volcanion is on the rise so we have people spamming fat waters to check it. Torn is literally everywhere and it can cleanly OHKO it with hurricane taking little damage from even boosted priority, and lets torn pick up momentum on a predicted switch. Whether keld or (only +2) nape wins is decided by a speed tie, but if keld is scarf it fears nothing. On stall unaware cm clef can set up on nape if it gets a free switch, and if nape has gunk shot its typically getting walled by something else on a stall team because it loses important coverage/a boosting move. Defensive nape isnt bad either but keldeo is a much more splashable, naturally bulky, and overall effective mon in the meta that can pull off nape's role as a dark sponge very well. Im not saying nape is bad itself and in a different state of the metagame it could very likely be deserving of B- rank, but the meta is being too unkind to it right now to justify a rise


amoonguss A- -> B+ no idea why this rose in the first place, but if i had to guess it's probably because of the prevalence of ladder stall. however i wouldn't rate amoonguss' utility along the likes of starmie or hippo or anything else in A- for that matter. and it most definitely is not better or worse than anything in b+. people only use this mon bcs they already have a mega and can't use venusaur. not only that, it faces competition with other popular grass types in the tier and is passive af after it's put something to sleep.
Amoonguss has been shown to be exceedingly viable and effective checking pokemon like keldeo, cb azumarill, speedy electrics, and mega lopunny. Its an excellent pivot in ou and i think you underestimate its potential. It has issues with being passive but spore is an extremely effective move, giving a teammate a free switch in to set up. It also has many other good options like clear smog, stun spore, and foul play letting it customize itself to its teams needs. For those reasons i strongly believe amoonguss should stay A- rank as it is a very viable and effective mon in OU.

latias B+ -> A- i understand why everyone wants to hop on the bandwagon of thinking latios is ultimately superior and latias is hopelessly outclassed which is true, but a drop all the way to B+ is somewhat of an illogical stretch. i mean, it isn't even that much outclassed by latias. what it trades in a bit of power it gains in bulk which is just ridiculous for it to drop an entire subrank. the bulk is actually a blessing for some teams since you can actually switchin into specsvolcanion, lo thund, avtorn, specskeld icywind, manectric, etc. without getting 2hkod unlike latios. hwish is just icing on the cake, and if your so adamant on defining latias for this one 'niche' it has over latios then i'd say your loss. i'd recommend building a team with dual hwish mons+scary set up mons/breakers, just might change your perspective on how you see it for what it is. not to mention that latias is better than the entirety of B+(except maybe overlord pinkblob supreme) so there's that.
Latias has rlly bad 4mss because you want to run healing wish to make running latias worthwhile, but doing that makes you sacrifice roost or defog. Giving up defog on a lati is just in general kinda shitty, and giving up roost makes you significantly less effective as a check to keldeo and electrics. Some teams that are particularly weak to thundurus prefer latias, but overall latios is almost always the better choice overall. Therefore i think latias is fine in B+ and should not rise

cofagrigus C -> C+ now this is definitely a mon that deserves more usage. it goes without saying how effective its defensive utility is in the tier as well as its unique ability im mummy. defensive tspikes is a pretty sick set especially since it spinblocks, but nastyroom has to take the cake for me. albeit an unconventional win con, it is extremely deadly if given the opportunity to set up. it still is able to function as a teamplayer by spreading burns and checking a ton of physical attackers, go figure.
Cofagrigus has no recovery, it is extremely weak to status, it has difficulty setting up, and it generally slaughters momentum. It needs at least one nasty plot up to pose much of a threat to anything offensively, but then it also needs to get trick room up to initiate a sweep. The main problem here is that it takes 2 turns to start being even remotely effective, and the teams that let it set up are likely to have pokemon that can wall it. Trick room is also very short, and after it wears off (provided it lives long enough), it is extremely succeptable to being revenge killed by pokemon like keldeo. On defensive sets it has little to no offensive presence and it only really has a place on select stall teams looking for a hard stop to pokemon like megacham, but even there it requires a decent degree of team support in the form of wish passing to work.

shedinja D -> C- i think this has solidified its presence in the ou meta enough for it to warrant a rise. goes without saying that it walls a lot in ou, but definitely needs hazard support and a countermeasure to the elements.
Shedinja stall has always been and will always be an incredibly matchup reliant team archetype. Its not unusable but it requires an enormous amount of team support to even be slightly viable. Its much more comparable to other D rank mons in terms of what they bring to the table: an interesting niche but crippling flaws that make it require immense team support to function.
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Volcanion being spammed also means that the fairies being used with it are being spammed, so gunk shot lurenape becomes better, scarf keld is kinda shit and if ur best hope of beating it with specs is winning a speed tie then that's stupid (esp since keld has always been common), unaware cm clef is a terrible set and almost never used on good stalls because it gets worn down so fucking fast and is dead someone clicks toxic vs it, keldeo can't pull of nape's role as a dark sponge half as well since it lacks reliable recovery and can't burn them at all, and the meta isn't that unkind to it since it outspeeds volc and can 2HKO it with cc on the predicted switch while most bulky waters get obliterated by grass knot. Tornt is and always has been common for quite some time now, so that really shouldn't be a factor on whether nape rises or not.
Scarf keld is an okay revenge killer and definitely not shit at least. im pointing out that it is hard stopped by/struggles agianst some of the top mons in the meta right now. unaware cm clef is used fairly often (yes even on "good stalls") because manaphy is the devil and its a helpful safety net to provide a secondary check to things like volcarona and serp. Offensive nape is pitifully weak before a boost and its subpar bulk makes it tricky to set up. defensive nape is definitely the best set imo but its rare to find teams that actually need the niche infernape provides and keldeo is much more splashable and provides more overall utility even if it doesnt specialize in countering darks the same way bulky nape does.
 
Amoonguss has been shown to be exceedingly viable and effective checking pokemon like keldeo, cb azumarill, speedy electrics, and mega lopunny. Its an excellent pivot in ou and i think you underestimate its potential. It has issues with being passive but spore is an extremely effective move, giving a teammate a free switch in to set up. It also has many other good options like clear smog, stun spore, and foul play letting it customize itself to its teams needs. For those reasons i strongly believe amoonguss should stay A- rank as it is a very viable and effective mon in OU.

Latias has rlly bad 4mss because you want to run healing wish to make running latias worthwhile, but doing that makes you sacrifice roost or defog. Giving up defog on a lati is just in general kinda shitty, and giving up roost makes you significantly less effective as a check to keldeo and electrics. Some teams that are particularly weak to thundurus prefer latias, but overall latios is almost always the better choice overall. Therefore i think latias is fine in B+ and should not rise

Cofagrigus has no recovery, it is extremely weak to status, it has difficulty setting up, and it generally slaughters momentum. It needs at least one nasty plot up to pose much of a threat to anything offensively, but then it also needs to get trick room up to initiate a sweep. The main problem here is that it takes 2 turns to start being even remotely effective, and the teams that let it set up are likely to have pokemon that can wall it. Trick room is also very short, and after it wears off (provided it lives long enough), it is extremely succeptable to being revenge killed by pokemon like keldeo. On defensive sets it has little to no offensive presence and it only really has a place on select stall teams looking for a hard stop to pokemon like megacham, but even there it requires a decent degree of team support in the form of wish passing to work.

Shedinja stall has always been and will always be an incredibly matchup reliant team archetype. Its not unusable but it requires an enormous amount of team support to even be slightly viable. Its much more comparable to other D rank mons in terms of what they bring to the table: an interesting niche but crippling flaws that make it require immense team support to function.
i really didn't want to respond but w/e better to know than not know right?

ur stating everything that everybody knows about amoonguss and you are not proving any kind of point by doing so. just because it does those things doesn't mean it deserves to stay in A-. spore is good but so is sleep powder and phys def from tangrowth, hazards and steel typing from ferrothorn, offensive pressure in venusaur. glad to know you read my post enough to completely neglect where i was coming from. also are you really bringing up 4mss? on latias??? its moves are dependent on what your team is weak to and needs to cover, this is universal for every mon. you state that because latios is better therefore latias should be B+, because that makes complete sense doesn't it? cofag is bulky enough and has the defensive typing to set up effectively. it is not susceptible to rkilling with trick room up and its best used late game when everything is weakened. again, you're stating the obvious and it has no bearing on how people should view it viably. not going to deny what you said about shedinja, but even so if you compare it with the mons in D and C-, then shedinja definitely has more bearance in the ou meta than w/e gimmicks lurk in D. please don't make me regret responding to this.
 
Agent Gibbs said:
Would someone please explain to me why Defog + Roost is "done better" by Latios enough such that it doesn't deserve a serious mention on Latias's analysis? Because to be honest, the few times I've wanted to use Defog + Roost on one of the Lati twins, I've used Latias. The whole point of Roost is to keep your Defogger alive longer, and I'd honestly rather use the twin with the greater bulk that can abuse that extra survivability to the fullest. Yeah, Latios has more power going for it, but you're still going to run into problems offensively when you're restricted to 2 move coverage. Meanwhile, Latias's extra bulk really does matter. For instance, Latias is only 2HKOed by Modest Charizard Y's Sun-boosted Fire Blast 38.7% of the time, which lets it stall out the Sun turns with Roost more easily, at which point Charizard Y will be doing piss damage. Latios takes considerably more damage, so Charizard Y actually has a shot at coming out on top if Latios switches into Stealth Rock and suffers a few high damage roles (unless Charizard Y has been weakened to ~80% so that Draco Meteor will be a guaranteed OHKO). Life Orb Keldeo has no chance at 2HKOing Latias with Icy Wind, while Latios is 2HKOed 89.5% of the time. Latias can switch into Breloom post-sleep a bit more easily since Adamant LO Bullet Seed (3 hits) followed by Mach Punch after Stealth Rock fails to KO Latias, while it has a decent shot at KOing Latios (there are other combinations to consider depending on the number of Bullet Seed hits and Breloom's nature/item, but I don't care to look up all of them). Latias survives Greninja's Life Orb-boosted Ice Beam 87.5% of the time from full health, which is useful if you're in a bind, while Latios is always OHKOed (or 92.8% of the time, if you're running 0/4 > 4/0). Latias can survive 4 Atk LO Landorus's Knock Off after Stealth Rock 50% of the time and all the time from full health, while Latios is guaranteed to die after Stealth Rock and still dies 31.3% of the time from full health. Latios is 2HKOed by Mega Manectric's HP Ice after Stealth Rock 75% of the time, while Latias is never 2HKOed under the same conditions. Latias can check Mega Pinsir in a pinch by surviving a +2 Quick Attack even after Stealth Rock and KOing back with Draco Meteor, even having a good chance to live on after the resulting Life Orb recoil. Latios has a 25% chance to die after Stealth Rock, and the Life Orb recoil is almost guaranteed to kill it afterwards. Latias is only OHKOed by Adamant CB Talonflame's Brave Bird 6.3% of the time from full health, which is a 62.5% chance for Latios. Latias can also switch into Terrakion more easily; LO Stone Edge fails to KO, and Latias will almost always survive the Life Orb recoil after KOing back with Psyshock. Latios has a small shot at being OHKOed on the switch-in, and it has a really good chance to die to Life Orb recoil the following turn.

I know this is kind of a random mishmash of various examples, but it's just a few specific scenarios to demonstrate where the extra bulk of Latias can matter. Even besides those specific examples, Latias's ~10% extra physical bulk and ~16% extra special bulk will come in handy every time it has to take a hit. Honestly, I could easily see where each Lati twin might have their advantages running such a set depending on the team. If you want to run Defog + Roost for a more reliable Defogger and you need the extra bulk to pivot in and out of various opponents or check/counter them more easily, you can go with Latias. If the bulk doesn't matter to your team, Latios is better due to its extra power. I can understand why you might prefer Latios the majority of the time since its greater offensive presence is very valuable, but I honestly don't see how Latios performs this particular set so much better than Latias that it isn't even worth giving a serious thought in Latias's analysis.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ing-a-new-thread.3495075/page-43#post-5482804

That post was from nearly 2 years ago. Funny how we've come full circle, isn't it?

So in other words, I'm agreeing with ben gay that Latias's bulk is still a good reason to use it over Latios, and this whole notion of, "Latias without Healing Wish is completely outclassed," is just oversimplifying things way too much. Bump it back up.
 

MANNAT

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Scarf keld is an okay revenge killer and definitely not shit at least. im pointing out that it is hard stopped by/struggles agianst some of the top mons in the meta right now. unaware cm clef is used fairly often (yes even on "good stalls") because manaphy is the devil and its a helpful safety net to provide a secondary check to things like volcarona and serp. Offensive nape is pitifully weak before a boost and its subpar bulk makes it tricky to set up. defensive nape is definitely the best set imo but its rare to find teams that actually need the niche infernape provides and keldeo is much more splashable and provides more overall utility even if it doesnt specialize in countering darks the same way bulky nape does.
scarf keld isn't great imo and specs is so much better, but keld has ALWAYS been common so i dont understand why that's an important point. unaware cm clef is significantly more uncommon than it was a while ago and it is a really poor set when clefable could be doing so many other things for its team and it can't really do shit vs taunt serp and volc is countered by chansey regardless of what set it has unless ur rocks, and mana is checked just fine by two mons that lose to two different sets as opposed to a subpar clef that is really only super useful vs one set. offensive nape isn't terribly weak when you're vs offense at all, esp when you're luring shit and smacking them super effectively, and nape can set up quite easily vs stall cause i don't really think that chansey wants to stay in vs an offensive fighting type. Nape is a lot nicer vs darks since keld literally gets knocked off then can't switch into bisharp or weavile at all. This is bc +2 sucker does around 60% to keld, so it literally takes one knock off+a couple rounds of rocks from it switching in and it dies to bisharp. weavile does 33% with knock off, then keld can only switch into weavile one more time since it takes 60% from 3 icicle crashes in a row, not even counting rocks damage. A lot of teams don't appreciate being pressured by darks that much so they really like defensive nape
 
I'm supporting Cofagrigus to rise to C+ as well, already made this nom myself a couple of pages back but I guess it got overlooked/ignored. The offensive TR set is really good and I encourage everyone, who doesn't see a reason for it to rise, to try it out, it performs way better in battle than it might look on paper and its ranking might suggest.

Cofagrigus has no recovery, it is extremely weak to status, it has difficulty setting up, and it generally slaughters momentum. It needs at least one nasty plot up to pose much of a threat to anything offensively, but then it also needs to get trick room up to initiate a sweep. The main problem here is that it takes 2 turns to start being even remotely effective, and the teams that let it set up are likely to have pokemon that can wall it. Trick room is also very short, and after it wears off (provided it lives long enough), it is extremely succeptable to being revenge killed by pokemon like keldeo. On defensive sets it has little to no offensive presence and it only really has a place on select stall teams looking for a hard stop to pokemon like megacham, but even there it requires a decent degree of team support in the form of wish passing to work.
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There are quite a few things I disagree with here, especially Cofag having trouble to set up. With its solid physical bulk and the threat of being burned by Will-o-Wisp it can force a switch on a significant amount of physical attackers in OU. Mummy helps a lot as well since there are quite a few mons which don't appreciate loosing their ability such as M-Medi, Azu, Lopunny, M-Pinsir or M-Altaria. Once you get one of these mons to hit Cofag with a weaker attack like a coverage move, you're pretty much guaranteed to get an opportunity to set up or weaken something on the opposing team.

You're also downplaying how threatening Cofag is offensively, Ghost is a great offensive typing, there aren't that many good Ghost resists in OU and most of them including Lopunny, Weavile, T-Tar and Bisharp absolutely hate taking a burn. Also, offensive TR Cofag's best matchup is against more offensive teams and many of those don't have anything which don't mind taking either a burn or a Shadow Ball, which makes it really tricky for them to play around it without giving it an opportunity to set up.

Plus, some of the weakpoints you mentioned apply to many mons in general like having no recovery or being extremely weak to status, which isn't even really true in Cofag's case since neither para nor burn are a 100% stop to a potential Cofag sweep, which isn't exactly common among setup sweepers. Same goes for the need of setup moves for it to get going, this is something which pretty much applies to setup sweepers in general and those mons who pose significantly/way more of a threat without any setup aren't really anywhere near the ranks Cofag was nommed for.

gonna leave my previous post on Cofag here as well, also has some replays in case someone wants to see the offensive TR set in action.
Since noms seem to be free at this point, I'm gonna nom Cofagrigus to rise from C to C+ or B-.

I've been using the offensive TR + NP set the last couple of days on the ladder and it has been putting in nothing but the finest of work. I know it's the suspect ladder and that Hoopa-U's abscence definetely helps but this set can still be really scary to go up against for many offensive and balanced teams.

Shadow Ball as the only attacking move might seem bad on paper but there are actually quite a few teams that don't even pack a ghost resist and most of the common ghost resists in OU (Lopunny, T-Tar, Weavile, Bisharp) hate taking a burn. Thanks to Will-O-Wisp and the switches it usually forces, as well as its still pretty solid bulk (on the physical side mainly), Cofag actually hasn't that hard of a time to start setting up and once it does it can put some serious dents in opposing teams or just outright sweep them once they're weakened enough. An other thing helping there is Mummy, which is a really useful ability, mons like Azu, Lopunny or Medicham loosing their ability basically turns them into setup fodder. I'm not saying taking M-Medi's Zen Headbutts or Azu's banded Play Roughs is the way to go but if you get Cofag in on something like a -1 Ice Punch or an Aqua Jet directed at your Lando, your opponent will have a problem.

Not gonna ramble too much about it though, I'll just let these replays do the rest of the talking, imo that's just not the performance you'd expect from a C rank mon, especially during the first two replays.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-356805926
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-354886977
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-356415291

In case some random suspect ladder matches aren't convincing enough, jamvad also used this set during spl against pdc, where Cofag did pretty well before it got frozen and blunder also posted it on the post spl discussion thread, so it also got recognition from some top OU players.
 

TPP

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Head TD


I've actually been using Infernape a lot as of late, so I'd like to voice my opinion on it. Keep in mind that this post really revolves around the special set that's not on the dex or the Sets VR, so most of what comes from this are because of that.

First of all, I use the Nasty Plot + 3 Special Attacks set, which I find to definitely be it's best set, as it's able to lure in every physical wall that'd normally switch into it like Rotom-Wash, Slowbro, Lando-T, and Garchomp, and then proceed to drop them. It's got the ability to setup on Mega Sableye and really put a major dent against most stall teams, as even Chansey can't take more than 2 hits when Infernape hits +2. With a ton of physically defensive stuff running down like Lando-T, Rotom-Wash as well as grass types like Amoonguss and Tangrowth, having Infernape can really be fun. These bulky mons getting more common with Bulky Offense being a very common playstyle really helps out Infernape (so this covers the "what's changed in the meta to make it more viable/better/etc"). As for trends that go against it, Mega Latias would be the case. Mega Latias is what really gives Infernape a run for it's money, since it can take hits much better than Latios/Latias, even from Tyranitar's Pursuit, but otherwise, Infernape can very much put in work when used correctly.

Literally no one sees the special set coming (unless you make some stupid obvious play like sending it to revenge kill a healthy Lando-T), so that really helps with luring out the mons it does. Pairing it up with something like Mega Scizor (or another physical attacker) can really help the paired mon a lot, since breaking down their checks (that are normally your checks as well) makes it easier for them to perform better later in the game.

Having Mega Latias, Latios/Latias as/Talonflame as the true best switch ins isn't too bad either, especially considering how well Tyranitar's been doing and it's ability to remove all 3 (or just Pursuit trap the Lati's and then having rocks on the field for Talonflame). Just as Tyranitar helps Volcanion out, it helps out Infernape in a similar manner. Speaking of Tyranitar's booming success and really just Pursuit being more common than before, this gives Infernape a great opportunity to set up or at least blast a hole in the opposing team.

As for what Infernape has over Keldeo, it has the ability to not get forced out by bulky Grass types that are everywhere. Amoonguss and Tangrowth being able to switch in against Keldeo and then proceeding to put something to Sleep can be huge in some battles, but with Infernape, that won't happen (or at least against it since it forces them out). Bulky waters can be problematic for both of them, but Grass Knot does help Infernape a ton (especially against Slowbro), as does Hidden Power for Keldeo.

This thing's definitely better than C+, and I strongly believe it can go up to B- at the least.

I made this post awhile back regarding the set and what it does, so if you wanna check it out, here it is: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-replays-required.3552283/page-7#post-6761193
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
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I kinda wanna touch on Latias a bit since I was a strong proponent of dropping it to B+ and I kind of think there's merit to argue that it should be A- right now.

First off I'll admit I kinda fell victim to the arguments "it's only niche is Healing Wish" which isn't really true. It IS true that the power of Latios is usually preferable to Latias' bulk, but not always. Still, the scenarios in which the bulk was more applicable weren't that common until Volcanion came into the meta. Realistically Latios can take on Keldeo just fine and threatens Pursuit trapper switch-ins far more (52 SpD Bish is always 2hko'd by Draco, and Band Tar barely takes 2 after rocks). Recover Latias mainly was more helpful for electrics and Serperior which it isn't even a really reliable answer for. It's actually kind of an answer to AV Torn-T which is funny, although it does end up U-turning out in the end.

Anyway, the last mini-update we did wasn't really considering Volcanion's impact on the meta too much. Reason being that it had barely been out and solid squads with it weren't really popping up yet, and we didn't want to jump to conclusions on stuff. Thus the electric types still dropping as well, though I firmly believe Raikou should not be touching the A ranks, Manectric's still kind of a threat so idk. Volcanion has certainly increased Latias' viability because of its ability to switch into the Specs set much more reliably than Latios:

252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 123-146 (40.8 - 48.5%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 107-126 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Of course Latios outspeeds and can Recover off this damage so it's not actually 2HKO'd, but this does a ton, plus the chance to burn means you really can't spam Recover super reliably. Whereas with Latias even if you get burned you can actually stall out Steam Eruption PP pretty safely (of course they'll switch at some point, but this is just an example). These calcs are also with Timid Volc so yeah Modest is gonna be more problematic even for Latias but it definitely takes it on better.

So yeah in conclusion, if Latias goes back to A- I'll take the fall on choice to originally drop it. It was a decision based more on the meta prior to Volcanion's release since I didn't want to overreact to its impact on the meta so early, but it's pretty clear to me that it's given teams more of a reason to run Latias over Latios now.
 
Move Azumarill down from A+ to A.

With the rise of Volcanion, Azumarill's time in the spotlight seems to be fading. Volcanion is finally a viable water absorb Pokemon in OU, meaning that Azumarill (especially banded variants) is punished heavily for a wrong prediction. This can, in essence, allow a Pokemon with no reliable recovery more switch in opportunities because of a well timed switch. Furthermore, the fact that can easily switch into most attacks bar a banded knock off, and then proceed to outpace it and KO it with sludge bomb, makes Azumarill much harder to use. Belly drum sets are similarly walled, as Azumarill simply doesn't have the speed to outpace Volcanion. Against all sets, steam eruption makes it so that there is basically a 30% chance of Azumarill being useless for the rest of the battle.

Specs Volcanion vs. banded Azumarill:
252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Sludge Bomb vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 354-418 (92.1 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO.

Banded Azumarill superpower vs. 0 HP Volcanion.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Even under ideal circumstances, Azumarill still can't deal with Volcanion. Seeing how Volcanion's usage will most likely stay high, due to an ability to absorb scald, have immense power with few switch ins (nothing really wants to take a specs steam eruption), having the typing and offensive presence to deal with things like Cleftable, Skarmory, M-Sableye. Finally, like keldeo, it has the ability with steam eruption to wear down its checks (Rotom, M-Venusaur, for instance). Overall, as Volcanion rises, Azumarill falls.
 


I've actually been using Infernape a lot as of late, so I'd like to voice my opinion on it. Keep in mind that this post really revolves around the special set that's not on the dex or the Sets VR, so most of what comes from this are because of that.

First of all, I use the Nasty Plot + 3 Special Attacks set, which I find to definitely be it's best set, as it's able to lure in every physical wall that'd normally switch into it like Rotom-Wash, Slowbro, Lando-T, and Garchomp, and then proceed to drop them. It's got the ability to setup on Mega Sableye and really put a major dent against most stall teams, as even Chansey can't take more than 2 hits when Infernape hits +2. With a ton of physically defensive stuff running down like Lando-T, Rotom-Wash as well as grass types like Amoonguss and Tangrowth, having Infernape can really be fun. These bulky mons getting more common with Bulky Offense being a very common playstyle really helps out Infernape (so this covers the "what's changed in the meta to make it more viable/better/etc"). As for trends that go against it, Mega Latias would be the case. Mega Latias is what really gives Infernape a run for it's money, since it can take hits much better than Latios/Latias, even from Tyranitar's Pursuit, but otherwise, Infernape can very much put in work when used correctly.

Literally no one sees the special set coming (unless you make some stupid obvious play like sending it to revenge kill a healthy Lando-T), so that really helps with luring out the mons it does. Pairing it up with something like Mega Scizor (or another physical attacker) can really help the paired mon a lot, since breaking down their checks (that are normally your checks as well) makes it easier for them to perform better later in the game.

Having Mega Latias, Latios/Latias as/Talonflame as the true best switch ins isn't too bad either, especially considering how well Tyranitar's been doing and it's ability to remove all 3 (or just Pursuit trap the Lati's and then having rocks on the field for Talonflame). Just as Tyranitar helps Volcanion out, it helps out Infernape in a similar manner. Speaking of Tyranitar's booming success and really just Pursuit being more common than before, this gives Infernape a great opportunity to set up or at least blast a hole in the opposing team.

As for what Infernape has over Keldeo, it has the ability to not get forced out by bulky Grass types that are everywhere. Amoonguss and Tangrowth being able to switch in against Keldeo and then proceeding to put something to Sleep can be huge in some battles, but with Infernape, that won't happen (or at least against it since it forces them out). Bulky waters can be problematic for both of them, but Grass Knot does help Infernape a ton (especially against Slowbro), as does Hidden Power for Keldeo.

This thing's definitely better than C+, and I strongly believe it can go up to B- at the least.

I made this post awhile back regarding the set and what it does, so if you wanna check it out, here it is: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-replays-required.3552283/page-7#post-6761193
Oh my god, surprising to see Infernape moving up getting unanimous support, I remember when this stuff took me ages to convince people this stuff.

But yeah, Nape's great and I've also been using him a lot, such as Nasty Plot like this guy, mixed, and the defensive spread. I'll tell you Infernape works best in bulky offense. If anybody needs me to do any mythbusting hit me up.
 

Eclipse

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I really don't see much of a reason for Azumarill to drop tbh. All that post mainly talked about was Volcanion's strong points as opposed to what else in the meta has really made Azu worse. Volcanion's introduction into the tier didn't necessarily make Azumarill worse; all it did was introduce another pokemon that can safely switchin to it. Sure while Volcanion is a very good check to Azu, and Amoonguss/PhysDef Tangrowth are still on the rise, Azumarill takes advantage of a lot of meta trends such as Tyranitar/Terrakion rising in usage, as well as the ability to blow back Excadrill while punching huge holes into common sand builds due to naturally being weak to Azu.

Overall, Azu hasn't gotten significantly better or worse right now, it is simply adapting to the meta right now and is still a strong force, and should still stay in A+ rank.
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Move Azumarill down from A+ to A.

With the rise of Volcanion, Azumarill's time in the spotlight seems to be fading. Volcanion is finally a viable water absorb Pokemon in OU, meaning that Azumarill (especially banded variants) is punished heavily for a wrong prediction. This can, in essence, allow a Pokemon with no reliable recovery more switch in opportunities because of a well timed switch. Furthermore, the fact that can easily switch into most attacks bar a banded knock off, and then proceed to outpace it and KO it with sludge bomb, makes Azumarill much harder to use. Belly drum sets are similarly walled, as Azumarill simply doesn't have the speed to outpace Volcanion. Against all sets, steam eruption makes it so that there is basically a 30% chance of Azumarill being useless for the rest of the battle.

Specs Volcanion vs. banded Azumarill:
252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Sludge Bomb vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 354-418 (92.1 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO.

Banded Azumarill superpower vs. 0 HP Volcanion.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Even under ideal circumstances, Azumarill still can't deal with Volcanion. Seeing how Volcanion's usage will most likely stay high, due to an ability to absorb scald, have immense power with few switch ins (nothing really wants to take a specs steam eruption), having the typing and offensive presence to deal with things like Cleftable, Skarmory, M-Sableye. Finally, like keldeo, it has the ability with steam eruption to wear down its checks (Rotom, M-Venusaur, for instance). Overall, as Volcanion rises, Azumarill falls.
You imply azu is a free switchin for volcanion but it really isnt. Azu can still wear down volcanion very easily to the point where it is no longer a counter by coming in more than once. Azu still puts in tons of work, and knock off sets still punish volcanion by removing its item which is really annoying as volc loves its specs. Furthermore banded superpower has a chance to KO after rocks and with really any prior damage azu is breaking it down 100% of the time. Azu getting one new soft counter doesnt warrant it dropping an entire sub rank. Its still great for the reasons it's A+ in the first place, and volcanion is just a tiny little dent in its viability.
 
Move Azumarill down from A+ to A.

With the rise of Volcanion, Azumarill's time in the spotlight seems to be fading. Volcanion is finally a viable water absorb Pokemon in OU, meaning that Azumarill (especially banded variants) is punished heavily for a wrong prediction. This can, in essence, allow a Pokemon with no reliable recovery more switch in opportunities because of a well timed switch. Furthermore, the fact that can easily switch into most attacks bar a banded knock off, and then proceed to outpace it and KO it with sludge bomb, makes Azumarill much harder to use. Belly drum sets are similarly walled, as Azumarill simply doesn't have the speed to outpace Volcanion. Against all sets, steam eruption makes it so that there is basically a 30% chance of Azumarill being useless for the rest of the battle.

Specs Volcanion vs. banded Azumarill:
252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Sludge Bomb vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 354-418 (92.1 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO.

Banded Azumarill superpower vs. 0 HP Volcanion.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Even under ideal circumstances, Azumarill still can't deal with Volcanion. Seeing how Volcanion's usage will most likely stay high, due to an ability to absorb scald, have immense power with few switch ins (nothing really wants to take a specs steam eruption), having the typing and offensive presence to deal with things like Cleftable, Skarmory, M-Sableye. Finally, like keldeo, it has the ability with steam eruption to wear down its checks (Rotom, M-Venusaur, for instance). Overall, as Volcanion rises, Azumarill falls.
Volcanion = instant drop or instant rise

Is that literally your only argument? At least when everyone else nominated insert Pokemon here to drop or rise because of Volcanion they had an additional reason to back themselves up.

I think you're looking too much at its downsides and not enough on its upsides. Azumarill is still very viable in OU despite Volcanion's existence. Volcanion, most Grass types and most Electric types give it trouble, but outside of that? It still checks big threats such as Landorus-Therian, Tyranitar, Diancie-Mega, Talonflame, Alakazam-Mega, Weavile, and Keldeo. It's still difficult to stop it from setting up Belly Drum. So what if there are some Pokemon that wall it if still checks a lot of Pokemon? Azumarill is fine in A+.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun

B ---> B+
I'm finding this Pokemon to be really splashable as of late. I see myself using this on a lot of teams for its role as a Fairy counter + Pursuit support. Having a switch in to Lati's Draco's is also pretty good to. Not to mention is can pair very well with a variety of Pokemon like Keldeo and Hydreigon. Not to mention it is also a pretty good answer to Kyurem Black which is always cool to have.


B- ---> C+/C
This Pokemon hasn't had much success as of late since it is basically a stronger Torn that forfeits a mega slot, coverage, Regenerator, Fighting resist. The only reason to actually use Pidgeot is if you want to build around it which is perfectly fine but its role as a stallbreaker isn't done to perfection as Chansey with any Thunder Wave or Toxic limits what Pidgeot can do. Torn has obvious advantages over Pidgeot which are pretty obvious and even if I was building a team and had not used my mega slot yet, I would still pick torn because of its versatility. I also think it compared better to the likes of Mons like Entei and Mega Amp instead of stuff like Zapdos, Mega Scept, and Mola who are all pretty decent and can be thrown onto teams easier.
 
Posting against Mega Sableye to S;

It is definitely not SO influential so as to become S, and in spite of its good defensive stats it is quite easily chipped on either the physical or the special side. Mixed Defensive Mega Sableye especially because it opts to split defenses it doesn't check threats on either side of the spectrum as well. The fact that sand is so common only makes it even harder for Mega Sableye, with an extra 6% being added every turn. If someone is trying to say stall is the reason why MEye should rise, then remember even pre Hoopa-U there were like a million things ranging from Mega Gyarados, to BU TFlame, to Manaphy that completely floor said play style; and if you were to say balance I'd argue that balance has better Mega Evolutions to be running, that give it more offensive presence(and arguably even defensive presence).
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon

B- ---> C+/C
This Pokemon hasn't had much success as of late since it is basically a stronger Torn that forfeits a mega slot, coverage, Regenerator, Fighting resist. The only reason to actually use Pidgeot is if you want to build around it which is perfectly fine but its role as a stallbreaker isn't done to perfection as Chansey with any Thunder Wave or Toxic limits what Pidgeot can do. Torn has obvious advantages over Pidgeot which are pretty obvious and even if I was building a team and had not used my mega slot yet, I would still pick torn because of its versatility. I also think it compared better to the likes of Mons like Entei and Mega Amp instead of stuff like Zapdos, Mega Scept, and Mola who are all pretty decent and can be thrown onto teams easier.
While I recently argued against this rising I definitely don't think it should drop. Stallbreaker pidge sets up on chansey fine because it has refresh and roost. That being said I think pidge shines brightest as a balance breaker with work up/hurricane/heat wave/roost. +1 pidge is incredibly threatening with its stunningly powerful, 100% accurate hurricanes paired with heat wave as good coverage. It puts LO torn to shame in this respect. Ive been using this a lot recently and the number of balance teams I just 6-0 with it at +1 is absurd. It's good speed tier also lets it serve as a decent cleaner against offense, and it still puts in work against stall with the right support. Comparing this to mamphy in terms of viability is just silly imo because this thing is really awe inspiring with the right support, unlike mamphy who has almost nothing over mlatias defensively and has underwhelming offensive sets to boot. If you haven't tried work up + 2 atks pidge yet I really recommend you do bc it's a great set. So yeah, imo stay B-.
 
I think Sableye is S rank. While Earth Plate Lando T and SD Lum Chomp are good pokemon that it can't switch into, you'll notice that Skarmory can, and defogs on them. It still deters stuff like Taunt, Spikes, throwing out wisps/toxic etc as a way of wearing stall down, and less stuff beats it now that the biggest breaker in the tier is gone. When looking at how to rank something, you'd normally look at competition for the slot. So, for instance, if you were ranking Starmie, you'd look at Latios as competition for a Keldeo check with hazard removal, and realise that (generally) Starmie isn't as good, and thus rank it lower. However, in this case, you'll notice that there is no real competition for Sableye, it is totally unique in what it does. It makes the rest of the stall team significantly harder to break, as an example you'll notice that LO Taunt Torn-T is generally good against stall, but if you can build a core that stops rocks, only really possible with Sableye, then sp def Talonflame can actually just come in and fish for hurricane misses, making handling it many times easier.

Its role compression is huge. Being able to stop stuff like Mew, Medicham, Sp def Wisp talon is valuable. Being able to form the important part of an anti hazards core is very valuable. Deterring taunt, while being able to throw out wisps and knocks of your own is valuable too. Put them all together and you have a fantastic mon that brings exactly what stall needs to the table, and so it is no wonder that basically every good stall build I've seen runs it. One thing we overlooked during the suspect test is that Sableye is actually better than defogging. Basically, if your opponent can't rocks on it, and yes I realise Lum Chomp and Earth Plate Lando become relevant when I'm making this point, then they can't force you to defog either, so not only can Sableye keep rocks off of your side of the field, then it can keep rocks on the opponent's, or force them to defog. What it does is control the hazard game, and mean that you won't have to defog away rocks that you set up very often. It's a consistent way of keep the hazard game as much as possible in your favour. Taunt and spike pressure used to be a good way of taking on different stall builds, but Sableye has single handedly changed that, and made both very ineffective, unless taunt is on a pokemon that hits very hard anyway, and just uses it as a fourth option to stop Chansey, like Heatran or Gardevoir. Pokemon that use taunt to break stall in the first place don't really work anymore.

I realise Sableye does force you into a specific type of build, but that ignores just how effective it is when you use it on that specific type of build. Don't look at it as a pokemon that requires 5 other pokemon to work properly, view it as a stall-only pokemon that shuts down a lot of ways that would otherwise be good against stall, providing an irreplaceable part of a stall team, and has had a major metagame shift in favour of the teamstyle it is used on with the biggest threat to it being banned. People spammed Sableye teams on the suspect ladder despite matches taking ages with it, because it required so little effort to pick up a good winrate with, and it was just so incredibly safe. It's been a dominating force on the ladder that was good anyway, now it's even better.

Just to add on some stuff, in relation to this:
then remember even pre Hoopa-U there were like a million things ranging from Mega Gyarados, to BU TFlame, to Manaphy that completely floor said play style
You can't say for sure what floors what. Yeah, sure, Manaphy is good against some stall builds, but others can run a cm/rest/sleep talk unaware clef set that stops it completely. Mega Gyarados can be completely stopped by Amoonguss, and stall has plenty of shit that stops BU Tflame; it can't roost on Quag if it doesn't have wisp, and it can't stop itself from getting toxic'd if it doesn't have taunt. What Sableye does is concrete the team against threats it can "kinda" handle by hugely reducing chip damage, which adds up to a lot throughout most of the game. So, for instance, the sp def talonflame vs LO torn example I gave above shows how something that could be good if you can get the chip damage isn't actually that good unless you get lucky with hurricane confusions, because it will not be able to get the chip damage. It's not just about what Sableye walls, it's about how it makes everything on the whole team wall yours just a little better. I could go through a longer list of breakers, but the fact remains that checks become much better checks if they can avoid taking hazard damage as they switch in.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Leaving some opinions...

A+ to S: Disagree

Like others stated before, Mega Sableye is both too team specific in which it needs a lot of team support to function to its best capacity and is matchup reliant, as it can get overwhelmed by hyper offensive teams to easily. The recent addition of Volcanion also did not help it, and the overall "ruling it has on the hazard game" is somewhat mitigated when Clefable is one of the most prominent Stealth Rockers besides Lando-T and Garchomp (this was even before Mega Sab was popular). Can't see it rise back up into S again atm.

A+ to A:
Disagree

Volcanion still does not switch into powerful Superpowers and Knock Off all to well, and just because it has to be weary of using its STAB moves, does not mean Azumarill is still not that effective. Belly Drum still is one of the best sets in the metagame, as it allows it to dismantle slower and weakened teams with ease, while still pertaining moderate bulk and good defensive typing which allows it many setup opportunities as it forces many switchins. Azu is fine in A+.

A- to B+:
Agree

Ya I never understood why this rose either. Amoonguss is a good wall and pivot on Stall teams don't get me wrong, but recent meta trends haven't exactly been working in its favor either. The ever so popular Tornadus-T, Scarf Jirachi and now recent Volcanion both pressure it hard (and Stall teams in general) to effectively be able to switch in and be able to get a Sleep off or fire some underwhelmingly powerful attacks. Its also just not that bulky enough to not get 2HKOed by some of the meta's most powerful attacks like Mega Lopunny's Return/Frustration, Life Orb Excadrill's Earthquake, Life Orb Bisharp's Knock Off, etc... I find Mega Venasaur to be the better option at this current state of the meta.

B- to C+/C:
Disagree

So this one is kinda personal to me because I like using Mega Pidgeot in OU a lot. I find many people discredit it of being "a worse Tornadus-T" because it does not have Regenerator, is weaker if Torn runs a Life Orb, and takes up your mega slot. However, Mega Pidgeot truly shines with its stallbreaker set, which can run through more balanced teams with minimal effort. The 100% accurate Hurricanes really do benefit it a lot when dealing with certain walls as the 30% confusion rate factors in many crucial 2HKO's and sometimes OHKO's Mega Pidgeot can get after some boosts. Its obviously not as splashable and formidable as Torn-T, but it definitely holds a distinctive niche in the current metagame especially since we lost one of your best wallbreakers in Hoopa-U.

Now my own nom:

A+ to A:

Mega Metagross is a formidable threat don't get me wrong, but I find the current meta does not allow it to shine like it once did a while ago. First, the popularity of Sand Offense does not help it at all, as it often cannot switch into common powerful attacks from popular types such as Ground, Fire, Dark, and Ghost. Common checks such as Mega Scizor, Skarmory, Slowbro, Mega Sableye, Rotom-W, Starmie, Suicune, etc... are all viable options that are added to many teams just mindlessly, already letting you be able to check it without thinking. It can beat through some checks with the appropriate move, but the 4MSS factor plays heavily in this case (with the moves being Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt, Grass Knot, Earthquake, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Bullet Punch). It has a hard time switching in on the appropriate times, and its speed can be a downfall in certain scenarios. I think it can fall to A for the time being.



 
Just making some thoughts.

B -> B+ Agree
I agree a lot on this one. While it don't have the good speed or the boost from Tough Claws from its mega, Metagross remains as a powerful check to offensive special psychic- and fairy- types(Lati@s, Mega-Gardevoir, Mega-Alakazam, most Clefable variants etc) that have Pursuit, a thing that Jirachi don't have. I like to consider AV Metagross most as an offensive version of the SpDef Jirachi, since it have a lot of more offensive presence, priority and pursuit trapping, while it trades the access for Rocks(While shuca variants can use!), U-Turn and Healing Wish for more special bulk and power. It's funny to see that common checks to Mega Metagross can't switch on AV Metagross at all like Landorus, since Clear Body break through Intimidate.

A- -> B+ On the fence
It's funny how people mind can change. Some months ago amounts of people are fighting on this thread to make this thing up, and now all this work is down. But i really don't think Amoonguss may fall; it still checks all the things it always switched into, while take out the pressure of having to choose between sableye and venusaur to most stall builds and having some advantages over it in the form of Spore, Regenerator and Clear Smog, and have amazing sinergy with some (now) common volcanion checks such as jellicent and suicune. While its pretty passive outside of Spore and Sludge Bomb, it can reliably run Foul Play to dismantle setup sweepers and somewhat "lure" psychic types. While it's low attacking stats can make it very passive, it still have a lot of good tools for balance and stall and don't take an mega slot. Maybe i'll come with a solid opinion later.
 

MANNAT

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Now my own nom:
A+ to A:

Mega Metagross is a formidable threat don't get me wrong, but I find the current meta does not allow it to shine like it once did a while ago. First, the popularity of Sand Offense does not help it at all, as it often cannot switch into common powerful attacks from popular types such as Ground, Fire, Dark, and Ghost. Common checks such as Mega Scizor, Skarmory, Slowbro, Mega Sableye, Rotom-W, Starmie, Suicune, etc... are all viable options that are added to many teams just mindlessly, already letting you be able to check it without thinking. It can beat through some checks with the appropriate move, but the 4MSS factor plays heavily in this case (with the moves being Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt, Grass Knot, Earthquake, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Bullet Punch). It has a hard time switching in on the appropriate times, and its speed can be a downfall in certain scenarios. I think it can fall to A for the time being.
I don't really agree with this at all. Sand offense has been common for a very long time and a lot of the mons you have mentioned have been common for quite some time, so I don't really understand what has changed for metagross recently. The tier shifting to a more bulky offense/balance type as opposed to offense is actually beneficial for metagross since it can break most standard balance teams (lacking mega scizor of course) with lure moves like thunderpunch for skarm and bulky waters that aren't insanely fat, grass knot for hippo and water/ground types, and powerful dual STABs in both meteor mash and zen headbutt or at the very least weaken said teams for teammates quite well. The main point is that mmeta fairs better against the current balance/bulky offensive teams in the tier as opposed to the HO squads that were running around everywhere just a little while ago. Volcanion just came into the tier, and that's actually a pretty good thing for metagross since it synnergizes well with volcanion, being able to check clef (and mdiancie if u have bp) pretty decently to take pressure off of volc as a fairy check and solidify a solid core that really isn't weak to fairies. It also can check rock types that threaten volc like ttar and maero (you're obviously not coming in on a crunch immediately after someone has revealed their ttar is scarfed) as well as luring bulky waters like gastro and shit with gk/tpunch (depends on team around the two mons). Overall, I think that metagross has actually gotten better than it was a while ago since shit like tankchomp isnt running around, making meta be forced to use ice punch and take like 30% every time it touches an attack (ice punch is still nice but not nearly as mandatory as it used to be at least imo) and fast, offensive powerhouses like overheat megamane are a lot less common than before. It's probably not S rank because of the reasons it dropped in the first place still being there, abeit to a lesser extent and is in the top half of A+ rank imo. Keep MMeta in A+
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Froslass -> D
This was brought up a little while ago and i really agree that it needs to drop. The supposed niche it provides is a suicide lead with good matchup vs some other leads, decent speed tier, spikes, and destiny bond. Unfortunately thats literally all it does and its not even too good at that. Suicide leads are literal shit right now and azelf is the only viable one because it actually gets hazards up semi reliably, but froslass can't pull it off. Most offense is packing something fast like mega lopunny that can shut it down completely, or things like talonflame which let it get one layer of spikes but wont let it set another layer or dbond. Not to mention that magic bounce megas fit on offense, balance, and stall; and both sableye and diancie give zero fucks about froslass because of how pitifully weak it is (seriously take a look at its stats theyre atrocious). The point is a significant amount teams have something that breaks froslass easily, and no competent player leads with chomp or lando if they see a froslass on the other team. Whether froslass is a teamslot dedicated to setting spikes and just about nothing else, or if its completely useless in a matchup is a 50/50 at best and theres not much it can do to fix that. Other suicide leads like azelf (if you insist on running a suicide lead in the first place) simply do what froslass does better, except for the tiny niche of spikes (which is done better by scoli imo but i digress). Azelf still gets rocks up on stuff like lando just fine and actually manages to set hazards on other things too. It can get rocks up on magic bouncers and mega lopunny, and has explosion which garuntees to maintain momentum unlike froslass which can give the foe a chance to set up if you guess incorrectly what the opponent plans to do.

TL;DR: Theres just very little reason for froslass to be used in this meta, and azelf is far more consistent in the role of a suicide lead. Froslass' niches are so minor its neglegible and some of these supposed niches can even backfire on it putting you at a disadvantage.
 
Froslass -> D
This was brought up a little while ago and i really agree that it needs to drop. The supposed niche it provides is a suicide lead with good matchup vs some other leads, decent speed tier, spikes, and destiny bond. Unfortunately thats literally all it does and its not even too good at that. Suicide leads are literal shit right now and azelf is the only viable one because it actually gets hazards up semi reliably, but froslass can't pull it off. Most offense is packing something fast like mega lopunny that can shut it down completely, or things like talonflame which let it get one layer of spikes but wont let it set another layer or dbond. Not to mention that magic bounce megas fit on offense, balance, and stall; and both sableye and diancie give zero fucks about froslass because of how pitifully weak it is (seriously take a look at its stats theyre atrocious). The point is a significant amount teams have something that breaks froslass easily, and no competent player leads with chomp or lando if they see a froslass on the other team. Whether froslass is a teamslot dedicated to setting spikes and just about nothing else, or if its completely useless in a matchup is a 50/50 at best and theres not much it can do to fix that. Other suicide leads like azelf (if you insist on running a suicide lead in the first place) simply do what froslass does better, except for the tiny niche of spikes (which is done better by scoli imo but i digress). Azelf still gets rocks up on stuff like lando just fine and actually manages to set hazards on other things too. It can get rocks up on magic bouncers and mega lopunny, and has explosion which garuntees to maintain momentum unlike froslass which can give the foe a chance to set up if you guess incorrectly what the opponent plans to do.

TL;DR: Theres just very little reason for froslass to be used in this meta, and azelf is far more consistent in the role of a suicide lead. Froslass' niches are so minor its neglegible and some of these supposed niches can even backfire on it putting you at a disadvantage.
I feel like he can grab a ko and one hazard if plaeyd correctly if you play destiny bond, and the otehr coutners can be solved by teambuilding. Tho i really think he shouln't even be OU, maybe councils can kick it down to UU somehow.
 
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