CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 8 - Counters Discussion

Here comes the Counters Discussion!

DougJustDoug said:

Name: Perfect Mate

General Description: Pick a good-but-not-great OU pokemon, and design the perfect teammate for it, similar to the way Celebi & Heatran, or Blissey & Skarmory complement each other so well on competitive teams.

Justification:
This would allow us to explore in detail how synergy between two pokemon can be achieved, because currently there are only a few perfect teammates in OU. And depending on the base pokemon we choose to give a "perfect mate", we can open a new niche in the metagame based around the efficient pairing.
The niche we create will be inherently tied to an existing pokemon in the metagame, which should provide a natural limitation to prevent this concept from being broken or "too different" from standard OU.

Questions To Be Answered:

• Is the base pokemon's usefulness (and usage) in the metagame increased as a result of having a "perfect mate"?
• What strategies are more effective for the base pokemon, as a result of having a perfect teammate?
• What are the most effective aspects of the new pokemon, for purposes of making a great teammate with the base pokemon?
• Is the new pokemon viable in the metagame without the base pokemon as a teammate

Click to expand...

Typing: Fighting/Dark
Stat Spread: 90 HP / 85 Atk / 80 Def / 105 SpA / 80 SpD / 110 Spe
Abilities: Volt Absorb / Lightningrod

First let me define what a counter is and what a check is. A counter is a Pokemon that can always come into another Pokemon and threaten it out/beat it. For example, Blissey is a counter to Starmie because it's literally impossible for Starmie to beat it. A check, on the other hand, can come in on certain moves of a Pokemon and threaten it out/beat it, but it's not a Pokemon that can continually switch-in. For example, Choice Scarf Flygon can check Dragon Dance Dragonite by coming in on his Fire Punch/Fire Blast/Earthquake/whatever else it can come in on and kill it with Outrage. Note the differences between the two terms. It's not that confusing.

I also want to bring up another part of this that you all can discuss: counters and checks to the Togekiss + CAP 11 core itself. Don't limit this to just CAP 11, broaden it to the core as well because our goal is to make an effective core between Togekiss and CAP 11. It's good for us to learn about this core's problems too. So all in all, discuss counters and checks to CAP 11, and discuss counters and checks to the core.

The rules:

• Know what a counter is and know what a check is; they are completely different. I don't want to see anyone mixing them up.

• Don't threadhog too much. Post your thoughts, get out, wait several hours, post your thoughts again, then get out again. Don't keep coming in and out every ten minutes. This is not a thread for you, it's a thread for everybody.

• No poll-jumping. Yeah we're almost done building our CAP, but that does not allow you to mention stuff that haven't even been decided on. Don't suggest anything specific, but I'm fine if you say things like "Pokemon X is not a counter to CAP 11 because it may have move Y".

• Keep the discussion fresh. Don't get hung up on the same points. I don't want to see ten posts right after the other saying that Beedrill is the perfect counter. Bring up something new to the table.

Don't disappoint me!

Zapdos is an obvious choice, thanks to decent all around stats and effective STAB (Drill Peck off base 90 attack is decent). Yes, new movesets/strategies will be needed but Zapdos has the bulk, typing and movepool to fend off Togekiss + CAP11 reasonably well.

Heracross can also function well, particularly ScarfCross. Switching into CAP11 should be fairly easy to do and Close Combat will scare him off plus nail switch-ins reasonably well (Togekiss included). Guts only makes him more of a threat if he can avoid paralysis.

RestTalk Gyarados also should work. The amazing bulk + Intimidate + Rest will help him take on anything the duo can throw. CAP11 isn't quite strong enough to take down Gyarados with Dark STAB alone (though I suspect he'll get an Electric attack...) and Togekiss isn't all that threatening if Gyarados isn't paralyzed.

Machamp can check CAP 11 coming in on it's STAB Dark moves and threaten with Dynamic Punch, which Togekiss really can't deal with switching in. Breloom can enter in similar fashion.

Here are Nasty Plot Togekiss' counters straight from Smogon (* means it's taken care of by CAP 11):

Zaptos*
Rotom-A*
Dragonite
Blissey
Cressilia*
Electrivire*
Jolteon*
Bronzong

And here are the pokemon I think would counter CAP 11 (again * means it's taken care of by Togekiss):

Machamp
Dragonite
Togekiss O.o
Blissey
Hitmontop (even though it's UU)*

______________________________________________

That means we need to take care of:

Bronzong
Dragonite
Blissey
Machamp
Other Togekiss'

Checks:

An Infernape with HP Ice will take care of em all exept Machamp. Machamp can be checked by Gengar. Thats what comes to my mind.

Zapdos stands out as having all the tools it needs to mangle the core. Resistance to CAP11's Fighting STAB and Togekiss's Flying STAB, while having super effective STAB options for both members of the core makes Zapdos a premier counter to CAPKiss. It will certainly have to adapt its game to deal with them, however, as it can't just sling Thunderbolts like it used to.

Heracross is the stuff of nightmares for CAP11. Resisting both of its STABs, and being able to retaliate with STAB super effective Close Combat isn't a good thing for CAP11 however you slice it. Worse yet, Togekiss can't come in safely to Air Slash - Heracross's Close Combats will rip her to shreds just as easily. Heracross is probably the biggest threat to CAP11 itself, and merits an external pivot to be taken care of.

Togekiss is an ironic response to CAP11 - it shrugs off its Special STAB and responds with STAB SE Air Slash. It must, however, beware of Close Combat or Stone Edge on mixed variants. She can also set up Nasty Plot to OHKO with Air Slash if her user is feeling ballsy.

Tentacruel takes a pittance from Aura Sphere and Dark Pulse with his excellent 80/120 special defenses. Close Combat targets Tentacruel's weaker physical defense, but resistance neuters CAP11's ability to break through in that fashion. With all the turns it takes for CAP11 to get passed it, Tentacruel can set up Toxic Spikes to foil NastyPass attempts, spin away hazards, set up Swords Dance or simply break down CAP11 with Surf, Hydro Pump, or Waterfall.

LouisCyphre said:

*snip*
If I'm not mistaken, Sleep Talk can select and use Calm Mind under Taunt as well. Anyone want to check this?
*snip*

Click to expand...

Taunt disables the use of Sleep Talk, as Sleep Talk is an Auxiliary Move. I believe that discredits Suicune as a CAP11 counter, yes?

Doesn't stop 'Cune from outstalling CAP11 in a boosting war, just means it stalls longer for its Calm Minds.

Well the biggest counters to CAP11 that strike out to me are: Zapdos and Heracross, both being able to come in on CAP11's STAB and threaten with their own STAB moves.

Probably Bulk up+Rest talk Heracross is the most horrible thing for it to face, because heracross can just bulk up and hit with i'm assuming neutral megahorn (fighting resist, but dark is hit for SE damage.)

I've researched all the Pokemon that could reasonably be expected to counter Timid Life Orb CAP11 with Aura Sphere and Dark Pulse. Obviously the number of checks is much greater, when one factors in Choice Scarf users, etc.

All calculations assume Stealth Rock is up.

Heracross immediately comes to mind, as it takes 26.5% - 31.4% from a Timid Life Orb Aura Sphere and forces CAP11 out with Close Combat.

Crobat takes on 52.5% - 61.7% from even Life Orb Dark Pulse, allowing it to survive, outspeed CAP11 and OHKO with Brave Bird.

Bulky Dragonite (assuming max HP/max SpD Careful) takes 27.5% - 32.6% from Life Orb Dark Pulse, allowing it to set up at will.

Crocune is not 2HKOed by Life Orb Aura Sphere (35.9% - 42.6% at +0 SpD), allowing it to set up, assuming favorable Sleep Talks. Even bulky offensive Suicune (172 HP/120 SpA) however, cannot OHKO CAP11 with Surf, meaning that CAP11 will 3HKO Suicune before it can 2HKO Suicune in return.

Roserade running a bulky set (for instance, 236 HP/152 SpD Timid SubSeed set) is not 2HKOed by Life Orb Dark Pulse (factoring in Leftovers), and can 2HKO with Sludge Bomb or put CAP11 to sleep with Sleep Powder.

Tentacruel takes only 28% - 33% from Life Orb Dark Pulse while doing 35.5% - 42.1% in return with Surf, meaning that it has a reasonable chance to 2HKO CAP11 factoring in Life Orb recoil before CAP11 can 4HKO Tentacruel (considering Leftovers).

Togekiss with max HP/max SpD Calm takes only 28.9% - 34% from Life Orb CAP11 Aura Sphere, allowing it to cripple CAP11 with Body Slam or likely OHKO with Air Slash (assuming one turn of Life Orb recoil).

Vaporeon takes 38.4% - 45.5% from Life Orb Aura Sphere, meaning it isn't 2HKOed considering Leftovers. Factoring in Wish and Protect, doing 46.7% - 55.1% to CAP11 with Surf is enough to beat it. This is a little less comfortable if CAP11 has Taunt, of course.

Venusaur with 252 HP/252 SpD Calm takes only 28.7% - 34% from Life Orb Dark Pulse, and can put CAP11 to sleep with Sleep Powder (if CAP11 does not have Taunt).

Zapdos with 248 HP/228 SpD Calm is not 2HKOed by LO Dark Pulse, and can do a respectable 36.4% - 43% to CAP11 with Heat Wave. All other varieties of Zapdos are 2HKOed by Dark Pulse.


For the record, the following Pokemon DO NOT counter the same CAP11.

Gyarados: even the Resttalk set takes 36.9% - 43.8% from Dark Pulse, putting it at risk of being 2HKOed.

Machamp: practically all useful sets are 2HKOed by Aura Sphere.


Since I'm certain this will be brought up a LOT, let me specifically address Suicune and Zapdos.

Crocune is clearly a safe switch into CAP11 that do not have Taunt. If CAP11 DOES have Taunt, this becomes much more risky business, since Suicune takes 35.9% - 42.6% from Aura Sphere while doing only 39.3% - 46.1% in return with Surf. Less bulky versions of Suicune are substantially less secure, considering that even max SpA Timid Life Orb Suicune can't OHKO CAP11 with Surf (65.7% - 77.6%). The fact that CAP11 outspeeds Suicune makes this no laughing matter, as I noted above. Be careful claiming that "Suicune" beats CAP11, it often will, but not nearly always.

Zapdos is not automatically a CAP11 counter, it must be EVed to be one. For instance, offensive Zapdos is easily 2HKO by Aura Sphere + Dark Pulse. SubRoost Zapdos can be 2HKOed by the same, and always will by two Dark Pulses.

reachzero said:

Zapdos with 248 HP/228 SpD Calm is not 2HKOed by LO Dark Pulse, and can 2HKO CAP11 with Thunderbolt. All other varieties of Zapdos are 2HKOed by Dark Pulse.

Zapdos is not automatically a CAP11 counter, it must be EVed to be one. For instance, offensive Zapdos is easily 2HKO by Aura Sphere + Dark Pulse. SubRoost Zapdos can be 2HKOed by the same, and always will by two Dark Pulses.

Click to expand...

Ummmm... CAP 11 has Volt Absorb, so Thunderbolt does nothing...

I think the only way to distinguish this as a core is to deliberately consider checks to similarly benefited Pokemon like Zapdos and Gyarados off the table.

Zapdos Counters:

The analysis says Blissey, Snorlax, Flygon, Gliscor, Swampert, and Tyranitar are the most common counters to Zapdos.

Gyarados Counters:
The analysis says Porygon2, Rotom-A, Celebi, Tangrowth, and Bulky Waters with Hidden Power Electric are the most common counters to Gyarados.

In order to dress some of the core's counters, some of these will also have to be countered. The common vein between the two seems to be Bulky Waters (Swampert specifically) for Zapdos. There's not much based on typing we can do about the Normal types or Tyranitar, they are type-trumped.

Therefore as long as we can't hit Bulky Waters SE outside of Hidden Power, we should be fine. Any move that is NVE against Bulky Waters should be up for consideration. Togekiss is too slow to sweep but it's excellent at clean-up.

Paralysis should also be an important part of CAP11's offensive synergy with Togekiss. If CAP11 has an accurate paralysis attack we can make it so there are fewer counters to the core (though they will remain checks). Reliable paralysis should take care of Zapdos, Crobat, Infernape, and Heracross switchins (despite Guts, but having a superpowered Atk and no Speed isn't that great). The last thing we want is for Zapdos to be a counter to the core, since Zapdos is one of Togekiss' biggest problems.

The core has a lot of redundancy problems, since Flying/Fighting and Fighting/Dark has overlap. While there will be some physical offense, likely in the form of Rock attacks, Rock doesn't have enough special power to really help a focused Special Attacking Core. Here are the types hit for super-effective damage by the combination:

Bug
Dark
Fighting
Ghost
Grass
Ice
Normal
Psychic
Rock
Empoleon/Heatran/Magnezone (All other steels are neutral to Fighting in OU)

So we have a functional 9 types hit SE. We don't want CAP to threaten Water types or Swampert, so here's a few types we could add to CAP10's coverage to round this out:

Add Fire: Remaining OU Steels
Add Ground: Electric (sans Zapdos), Poison, Steel (non-Scizor/Forry/Bronzong)
Add Ice: Dragon, Flying (sans Gyarados), Ground (sans Swampert)
Add Water: Ground (sans Swampert, Flygon)

The best way forward seems to be Ground and/or Ice, neither of which addresses Bulky Waters well, but both of which add some more types to Super-Effective coverage. Ground would help solidify Heracross and Breloom as CAP11 counters (unless running 3 Attacks + say T-Wave) while obliterating the Electric types.

I think that most people are going about this the wrong way. Rather than looking at what would naturally be expected to counter a mixed Dark/Fighting type, we should be attempting to decide these counters for ourselves, in a way that most benefits the synergy with Togekiss, correct? For me, this means many things, but I want to get this off my chest first:

No counters for Togekiss + CAP11 combination

I want to put this bluntly. There is literally no reason for us to decide that one single Pokémon is going to screw over this combination. Especially not a common one. The vast likelihood of return is that there will be a lot of checks to this combination regardless. Togekiss isn’t honestly the sort of Pokémon who needs more weaknesses – it has them, very much so, already. If we try to limit CAP11 in this way, we aren’t going to make this combination worthwhile and that’s a fact.

So, what am I suggesting? Simple. Togekiss has checks and counters. CAP11 has checks and counters. The combination of them should not. So, we have to ask ourselves how best to produce this result. Like I said, simple.

Togekiss’s best counters are Blissey, Cresselia, Rotom-H, and Zapdos. The former three are beaten through STAB moves alone, but the last is a big problem. Like I said at the beginning of this project, Zapdos is the key factor that can make or break CAP11. If we can surpass Togekiss’s biggest counter, the concept will succeed. There is a definite reason to use Togekiss, now. If CAP11 cannot best Zapdos, Togekiss does not have this advantage. The project will fail. As I said, the partnership must be mutually beneficial, and if CAP11 is not benefiting from the presence of Togekiss, there is no point in running it, so the concept cannot succeed.

So, how will this work? With Stealth Rock taken for granted, Zapdos is 2HKOed by LO Dark Pulse (I’ll assume that CAP11 gets Dark Pulse for now), barring SDef variants, and CAP11 is faster. However, if it doesn’t switch into Dark Pulse or Stealth Rock, Zapdos can easily OHKO with LO HP Flying. And that’s bad. So, we see that Zapdos is not a conventional counter already, but to be perfectly safe CAP11 would need a stronger move. I’ll stop here to avoid polljumping, but I will restate that Zapdos should not under any circumstances be considered a counter.

On the reverse side, CAP11’s counters should be those that

a) Togekiss can come in on
b) Neither Zapdos nor Gyarados can come in on

So, from that list, I think that the ideal counters, along with some sample damage calcs, would be:


Bulky Water-types: Milotic and Suicune should be able to take hits and retaliate – Milotic has reliable recovery and Suicune can set up Calm Mind. Though it is dangerous to bait something of this sort (and I must confess I am not happy about it myself) Togekiss should be able to set up on those bulky Water-types with weaker offensive stats, as well as Swampert and Vaporeon, should they begin to run specially defensive sets. Also, creates redundant synergy with Gyarados.

LO 252 SAtk Timid CAP11 Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP Suicune: 31.9% - 37.9%
LO 252 SAtk Timid CAP11 Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP Milotic: 30.8% - 36.6%
LO 252 SAtk Timid CAP11 Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP Vaporeon: 33% - 38.8%
LO 252 SAtk Timid CAP11 Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP 216 SDef Careful Swampert: 29% - 34.2%
LO 252 SAtk Timid CAP11 Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP 136 SDef Calm Tentacruel: 28% - 33%

Bulky Ground-types: Well, most of them can’t take a special attack for toffee, but they tend to be good bait for Togekiss. This area will probably not come to fruition, but if we can make it so that would be excellent. As it is less likely to succeed, it is less of a priority than Water-types, but whatever. Creates redundant synergy with Zapdos.

LO 252 SAtk Timid CAP11 Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP 216 SDef Careful Swampert: 29% - 34.2%
LO 252 SAtk Timid CAP11 Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP 172 SDef Careful Hippowdon: 33.6% - 39.5%

Bulky Grass-types: CAP11 beats Celebi anyway and Togekiss can’t switch in on Breloom, so this point is a little bit redundant. However, if Shaymin becomes a more popular alternative to Celebi because of CAP11, and Roserade is taken as a threat, this point should be addressed, perhaps. Also, creates redundant synergy with Gyarados and Zapdos.

LO 252 SAtk Timid CAP11 Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP Shaymin: 35.9% - 42.6%
LO 252 SAtk Timid CAP11 Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP 136 SDef Calm Roserade: 34.6% - 41%
LO 252 SAtk Timid CAP11 Dark Pulse vs. 236 HP Breloom: 33.6% - 39.5%

-------------------------------------------

Other stuff I would accept as checks / possibly counters… I really don’t care. Everything Togekiss fears should be taken care of, and everything CAP11 fears should be taken care of, by this combination. So Heracross presents a problem, and that’s fine. It’s a natural weakness, and I dare say many more will present themselves before playtesting is over.

In summary:

Zapdos should NOT be a counter if we can prevent it
Bulky Waters, Grounds, and Grasses should be counters for the most part.

Note I have excluded Aura Sphere from these calculations. This is intentional, mainly because I don’t agree with its inclusion in the movepool, but this is irrelevant to the thread at hand. And I will be glad of the opportunity to explain myself when the movepool thread opens, never fear.

Well, I think that’s everything. Please feel free to reply.

Deck Knight said:

I think the only way to distinguish this as a core is to deliberately consider checks to similarly benefited Pokemon like Zapdos and Gyarados off the table.

Zapdos Counters:

The analysis says Blissey, Snorlax, Flygon, Gliscor, Swampert, and Tyranitar are the most common counters to Zapdos.

Gyarados Counters:
The analysis says Porygon2, Rotom-A, Celebi, Tangrowth, and Bulky Waters with Hidden Power Electric are the most common counters to Gyarados.

In order to dress some of the core's counters, some of these will also have to be countered. The common vein between the two seems to be Bulky Waters (Swampert specifically) for Zapdos. There's not much based on typing we can do about the Normal types or Tyranitar, they are type-trumped.

Therefore as long as we can't hit Bulky Waters SE outside of Hidden Power, we should be fine. Any move that is NVE against Bulky Waters should be up for consideration. Togekiss is too slow to sweep but it's excellent at clean-up.

Paralysis should also be an important part of CAP11's offensive synergy with Togekiss. If CAP11 has an accurate paralysis attack we can make it so there are fewer counters to the core (though they will remain checks). Reliable paralysis should take care of Zapdos, Crobat, Infernape, and Heracross switchins (despite Guts, but having a superpowered Atk and no Speed isn't that great). The last thing we want is for Zapdos to be a counter to the core, since Zapdos is one of Togekiss' biggest problems.

The core has a lot of redundancy problems, since Flying/Fighting and Fighting/Dark has overlap. While there will be some physical offense, likely in the form of Rock attacks, Rock doesn't have enough special power to really help a focused Special Attacking Core. Here are the types hit for super-effective damage by the combination:

Bug
Dark
Fighting
Ghost
Grass
Ice
Normal
Psychic
Rock
Empoleon/Heatran/Magnezone/Lucario (All other steels are neutral to Fighting in OU)

So we have a functional 9 types hit SE. We don't want CAP to threaten Water types or Swampert, so here's a few types we could add to CAP10's coverage to round this out:

Add Fire: Remaining OU Steels
Add Ground: Electric (sans Zapdos), Poison, Steel (non-Scizor/Forry/Bronzong)
Add Ice: Dragon, Flying (sans Gyarados), Ground (sans Swampert)
Add Water: Ground (sans Swampert, Flygon)

The best way forward seems to be Ground and/or Ice, neither of which addresses Bulky Waters well, but both of which add some more types to Super-Effective coverage. Ground would help solidify Heracross and Breloom as CAP11 counters (unless running 3 Attacks + say T-Wave) while obliterating the Electric types.

Click to expand...

Fixed with Lucario. otherwise, nothing to add to what has been said, though surprised at how well Tentacruel can handle the team.

Here's an import for the damage calculator for running calcs with CAP11:

reachzero said:

Gyarados: even the Resttalk set takes 36.9% - 43.8% from Dark Pulse, putting it at risk of being 2HKOed.

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If you use the more practical Special Defensive RestTalk set (252 HP, 176 SpD with Careful), Gyarados takes max 28.4% to 33.8% from Life Orb 252 SpAtk (neutral nature) CAP11. With Intimidate, physical attacks won't be doing much.

familyguyman said:

If you use the more practical Special Defensive RestTalk set (252 HP, 176 SpD with Careful), Gyarados takes max 28.4% to 33.8% from Life Orb 252 SpAtk (neutral nature) CAP11. With Intimidate, physical attacks won't be doing much.

Click to expand...

Who is going to be using physical attacks though? And Gyarados is still at risk of a 3HKO, ignoring any Nasty Plot passes CAP11 might have received. I think we can call him a check, but not a hard counter.

One unique one I was thinking would giove the pair difficulties would be LO Mamoswine. Ice threat forces Togekiss out and it you Superpower on the predicted switch.

I would comment on others but they are likely to be covered independently.

I just checked how well Aerodactyl could counter CAP 11 - Even with no special defense EVs, Max SpA Modest Life Orb CAP11's Dark Pulse may not OHKO Aerodactyl after Stealth Rock, and Brave Bird always OHKOs (~170% Damage). Likewise, it can also OHKO Togekiss (I checked the Flinch Set) with Stone Edge. That means when SR isn't set up, Aero can OHKO both CAP 11 and Togekiss and still live (The above mentioned attack maxes at ~80%).

Aerodactyl does not learn Brave Bird.

aura sphere VS the standard wish blissy is 37% - 43%
item - life orb: 37% - 43%

Cap 11 is running a timid nature + speed, - att.
maxed special attack and speed.

~

brick break VS the standard wish blissy is
item - life orb: 66% - 78%
item leftovers: 51.3% - 60.5%

Cap 11 is running a lonely nature. +att, -def
maxed attack and speed.

~

super power VS the standard wish blissy is
item - life orb: 106% - 125%
item - leftovers: 81% - 96%

Cap 11 is running a lonely nature. +att, -def
maxed attack and speed.

~

super power VS the standard wish blissy is
item - life orb: 74% - 88%
item - leftovers: 57% - 68%

Cap 11 is running a hasty nature. +spe, -def
maxed special attack and speed, 4 attack ev's


Mixed set looks viable, really wish it had guts now.

CAP11 is easily it's own check. The winner comes down to the speed tie of who Aura Spheres first, and the winner can pick off the Togekiss with Dark Pulse. similarly, ScarfedKiss air Slash will beat CAP11 due to flinchax alone.

Crobat is a very good counter as it can easily switch into CAP11 and retaliate with any of Brave Bird or Air Slash. The NP set can set up and just sweep whereas the BBird set has Taunt to deal with TIgekiss respectively.


I thnk people need to look at the bigger picture here and consider that this time, the counter wimll need to Reliably take down the WHOLE CORE as opposed to CAP11 alone. Just because something can switch in and threaten CAp11, it is also likely to take damage as well, meaning it can be picked off by Togekiss. I don't think the likes of Crocune or Heracross are effective counters as in the case of Crocune, I would be willing to let CAP11 die just so I could Air Slash it to death with more ease.

Something that may quite possibly check the Togekiss/CAP11 core well is Crobat; if it has Taunt, it doesn't fear any of the standard moves on Togekiss's movepool, and CAP11 won't like taking its STAB flying attacks. Paraflinching Togekiss also looks like a good check, being able to paralyze both CAP11 and Togekiss into near-uselessness with Body Slam. Of course, it doesn't really matter if the two Pokémon in the core have common checks; one will be able to weaken the check for the other to take down. (In this sense, much more dangerous to the core are Pokémon which handle half the core well and can badly injure the other half on the switch, like Drill Peck Zapdos walling Togekiss and injuring CAP11 when it switches; nothing that we put in CAP11's movepool will be able to avoid that, so Zapdos is a great Pokémon against the core no matter what we do from now on.)

As for Pokémon that counter CAP11 itself, in order to really help out Togekiss rather than, say, Gyarados or Celebi, they should ideally be things that Togekiss doesn't mind but that similar Pokémon do. Heracross makes an excellent CAP11 (only) counter for this reason; Togekiss has no problems with an enemy Heracross, but Celebi (probably the best Nasty Plot passer in OU) hates it.

Scizor is a Pokémon that should be carefully considered; it can't do much to Togekiss but a neutral Superpower, but CB Superpower from Scizor is enough to 2HKO Togekiss easily (even taking into account the Atk drop), and CAP11 won't like taking it either. I'm not sure whether we should let Scizor be a check to the core, or not; having such a common check may well make the core fail, after all. (Probably not, as Gyarados has no issues with Scizor, so there's no real reason to allow it to threaten CAP11.) There are similar considerations on Forretress; it's bulky enough to survive two or maybe three turns against Togekiss builds without Flamethrower, long enough to set up a layer or two of hazards then explode, and it can do the same thing to a CAP11 that lacks Fire moves. However, ideally CAP11 should be able to take care of those two Pokémon but not Heracross; thus, ideally it should be able to take advantage of a 4x fire weakness but not a 2x fire weakness. (That, or Togekiss will be forced into running Flamethrower to make the core work.)

Dragonite (lacking Heal Bell) dislikes Togekiss paralyzing it, but can still defeat some Togekiss builds, and is relatively bulky and neutral/resistant to CAP11's STAB. It may work as a check to the core if CAP11 is missing Ice moves.

Overall, for CAP 11 and Togekiss, I do not think they should have many common Counters since the whole point is that they form a decent core.

I propose Lanturn. Lanturn is not too common in OU, but resists the Flying-type STAB of Togekiss, and with decent investment into HP and Special Defense, it rarely takes over 30% damage from CAP 11's Aura Spheres. With a Modest nature and as little as 140 EVs in Special Attack, Lanturn gets a guaranteed 2HKO with Hydro Pump. It is also immune to Thunder Wave which is sometimes seen on Togekiss. Please consider this.

Dr. Reid said:

Overall, for CAP 11 and Togekiss, I do not think they should have many common Counters since the whole point is that they form a decent core.

I propose Lanturn. Lanturn is not too common in OU, but resists the Flying-type STAB of Togekiss, and with decent investment into HP and Special Defense, it rarely takes over 30% damage from CAP 11's Aura Spheres. With a Modest nature and as little as 140 EVs in Special Attack, Lanturn gets a guaranteed 2HKO with Hydro Pump. It is also immune to Thunder Wave which is sometimes seen on Togekiss. Please consider this.

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Eh, with SR, 401 HP/276 Sp. Def Lanturn (standard) is 3HKOed by LO Aura Sphere (takes 35% min). You could invest more EVs in HP to prevent a 3HKO, but you'll lose either needed Firepower (Without Sp. Atk EVs you do 32% tops with Surf), or the ability to take some physical attacks (Its defense is crap after all). So It's a flimsy counter at best.

Not much to add, but if CAP11 lacks fighting priority, Weavile can be a threat to the core with Ice punch dealing heavy damage to both and low kick potentially OHKOing the CAP based on weight. He also outspeeds both and can come in on (only) dark pulse/nasty plot, but is more of a revenger. 110 base speed is probably enough to let CAP11 drop priority on some sets even if he gets it. Gengar is in a similar position, although it only speed ties with CAP11. These are checks to the core.

Heracross and Zapdos are among the most threatening, as already stated. Bronzong is tough and standard Gyro Ball easily 2HKOes max speed CAP11, dealing 49.5% minimum against a completely neutral nature. The bell takes 34% - 40.2% from an adamant LO close combat, the most it will ever recieve, making it a decent counter for CAP11.