About the weather / weatherless issue, I should have mentioned it in my nomination but I obviously come down in favour of allowing weather so long as we aren't actually dependant on it being up. Rather than limiting our choices, I'd argue that having Sand from CBTar actually gives us a lot more viable options because we don't need to stack the team with dedicated anti-Rain / Sun defense like we'd have to on a completely weatherless team.
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OU CCAT - Mark III (Laddering/Discussing - See Post #547)
- Thread starter Electrolyte
- Start date
Yeah, you can nominate a weather Pokemon, we just chose not to make our team dependent on that weather. Also this is kinda a pet peeve but please don't reserve post for Pokemon! You're allowed to nominate as many Pokemon as you'd like, but please post your thoughts immediately. Reserving can lead to clogging and sometimes, these posts get neglected and forgotten. It's like reserving a post to rate a team—it's not that big of a deal. Do what you need, but please do it as soon as the idea comes to your head. Don't worry about not being the first to post the set, bonus points aren't that big of a deal!
PenguinX's metagame analysis is pretty spot-on. Pretty much every team he's listed has been a team I've run into multiple times on the ladder, we definitely need to make sure that we can cover all of these. I'll gather a full checklist of notable Pokemon that we need to deal with and compile a few more teams to add to Peng's checklist.
Going back to my original point, I actually support Tyranitar because it removes a ton of Keldeo's checks / counters. Let's look at the list of notable ones: Latios, Latias, Starmie (to an extent), Celebi, Jellicent. Tyranitar takes care of all of these Pokemon, especially Choice Band or Choice Scarf sets. Specially defensive sets work too, but they cannot rid the field of these problematic Pokemon as easily. So yeah, I definitely support Tyranitar as a teammate, it rocks (no pun intended...) in tandem with Keldeo. It also lets us control weather, as most common sun teams are fairly weak to Tyranitar anyways.
PenguinX's metagame analysis is pretty spot-on. Pretty much every team he's listed has been a team I've run into multiple times on the ladder, we definitely need to make sure that we can cover all of these. I'll gather a full checklist of notable Pokemon that we need to deal with and compile a few more teams to add to Peng's checklist.
Going back to my original point, I actually support Tyranitar because it removes a ton of Keldeo's checks / counters. Let's look at the list of notable ones: Latios, Latias, Starmie (to an extent), Celebi, Jellicent. Tyranitar takes care of all of these Pokemon, especially Choice Band or Choice Scarf sets. Specially defensive sets work too, but they cannot rid the field of these problematic Pokemon as easily. So yeah, I definitely support Tyranitar as a teammate, it rocks (no pun intended...) in tandem with Keldeo. It also lets us control weather, as most common sun teams are fairly weak to Tyranitar anyways.
I wonder, why everyone wants to add the next best offensive 'mon to the team.. Now that we know what we mainly aim to pass Substitute, I don't see any reason not to support the team beforehand with something like this:
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Nature: Sassy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Leech Seed / Thunder Wave
- Protect
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Nature: Sassy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Leech Seed / Thunder Wave
- Protect
- Offers almost perfect typing coverage along with Gliscor and Keldo, leaving only Flying as neutral attacking type
- Stealth Rock is an obligatory move, which certainly should get a spot in the team
- Supportive role with access to Thunder Wave, Leech Seed, and Protect giving Gliscor an easier time to do its work
- Protect to scout for Choice locked moves ('sup Genesect)
- Gyro Ball not to completely be shut down by Taunt
- Power Whip might work as an alternate attacking option, but I'm not a fan of it tbh..
- Fully specially defensive to tank any Dragon-, Water-, Ice-, Psychic-, and Electric-type move the best way possible, Fighting-type moves should be redirected to Gliscor, Fire-type moves to Keldeo
- benefits from Substitute as well, as it is quite annoying along with Protect and Leech Seed
- Rocky Helmet could work too maybe?
To anyone asking why is it so bad to add Tyranitar so early... First of all we always have the option to put him later, so why some of you act as if we don't chose Tyranitar now, it will be lost forever?
And the main reason. Non Ground / Steel / Rock Pokemon get hurt by sandstorm. That's the reason that Pokemon such as Life Orb Infernape, non Lefties Dragonite, Life Orb Gyarados, Life Orb Jolteon and some other pokes are not commonly seen on sand teams. So why eliminate the possibility for some of those pokes to make it in the team, just because we want to put Tyranitar so early? In the other hand Tyranitar can be easily get picked as our 4th, 5th, or 6th poke, as long as it doesn't overlap with the roles of other Pokemon (CB Tyranitar is somewhat of a unique Pokemon, and cannot be compared to other CBers easily because of Pursuit and sand). The fact alone that we have Keldeo makes CBTar viable no matter how soon or late he is picked. This doesn't mean that CBTar is a bad choice, as it is a very good one, and has been proven to be one of the best Keldeo partners. I just don't want to limit the possibilities of the potential pokes that could fit in our team, as variety is always appreciated in a CCAT.
@Ginganinja
As i said multiple times, i chose Scizor mainly as an alternate receiver of the Subs that Gliscor can pass, and as an eliminator of problematic pokes for Keldeo. Now if Scizor doesn't receive a Sub, it will not perform as good obviously, but it will still be at least good. My thought process is that if we want to base our team around SubPass Gliscor, then we should give him as much set-up opportunities as possible, so he can in turn be able to pass it to other pokes that will be able to do some serious work and synergise good with Gliscor. So Scizor was chosen because i believed that Gliscor would be the center of the team, and would be able to constantly provide Subs to its teammates (by constantly i mean once or twice in each game, but no less). If the team ends up being less centered around Gliscor, then Scizor loses some of its merit, but if it doesn't then i believe that Scizor is the best choice right now.
Let's see how Scizor fares agains the pokes in my list, assuming that those pokes will come in on Gliscor as he uses Sub.
And the main reason. Non Ground / Steel / Rock Pokemon get hurt by sandstorm. That's the reason that Pokemon such as Life Orb Infernape, non Lefties Dragonite, Life Orb Gyarados, Life Orb Jolteon and some other pokes are not commonly seen on sand teams. So why eliminate the possibility for some of those pokes to make it in the team, just because we want to put Tyranitar so early? In the other hand Tyranitar can be easily get picked as our 4th, 5th, or 6th poke, as long as it doesn't overlap with the roles of other Pokemon (CB Tyranitar is somewhat of a unique Pokemon, and cannot be compared to other CBers easily because of Pursuit and sand). The fact alone that we have Keldeo makes CBTar viable no matter how soon or late he is picked. This doesn't mean that CBTar is a bad choice, as it is a very good one, and has been proven to be one of the best Keldeo partners. I just don't want to limit the possibilities of the potential pokes that could fit in our team, as variety is always appreciated in a CCAT.
@Ginganinja
As i said multiple times, i chose Scizor mainly as an alternate receiver of the Subs that Gliscor can pass, and as an eliminator of problematic pokes for Keldeo. Now if Scizor doesn't receive a Sub, it will not perform as good obviously, but it will still be at least good. My thought process is that if we want to base our team around SubPass Gliscor, then we should give him as much set-up opportunities as possible, so he can in turn be able to pass it to other pokes that will be able to do some serious work and synergise good with Gliscor. So Scizor was chosen because i believed that Gliscor would be the center of the team, and would be able to constantly provide Subs to its teammates (by constantly i mean once or twice in each game, but no less). If the team ends up being less centered around Gliscor, then Scizor loses some of its merit, but if it doesn't then i believe that Scizor is the best choice right now.
Let's see how Scizor fares agains the pokes in my list, assuming that those pokes will come in on Gliscor as he uses Sub.
- Latios: If you see LO recoil switch out, if you don't, stay in and go for the OHKO with Pursuit, as Latios will be choice locked (if Latios uses any move other than HP Fire then Scizor lives it and OHKOes, and if he uses HP Fire as Gliscor passes the Sub, the Sub won't break), as EB Latios is not so common (in the ladder at least).
- Latias: Most Latias don't run HP Fire, and even if they do, they can't OHKO Scizor from full health, so Scizor wins.
- Celebi: Gliscor will usually be faster, and Celebi will more often than not use Giga Drain, which means that Scizor will be in with a Sun intact, checkmate for Celebi. Even if he predicts the switch-in and uses HP Fire, Scizor can scout it with the Sub, and try again another time.
- Tornadus-T: Torn-T breaks the Sub with Hurricane as we go to Scizor,, and then he either switches out or dies from BP and 2 LO rounds. Taunt Torn-T is problematic though as he won't let us SubPass
- Reuniclus and Amoonguss: Pretty obvious, no need to explain here
- Gengar: It depends. If Gengar sets up a Sub as we do the pass (which is the most likely scenario), then Scizor breaks it as Gengar makes another one and Disables our move next. So Gengar loses 38% of its health, but he gains a free Sub as we switch out. However if he doesn't use Sub as Scizor comes in, Scizor wins.
- Salamence: If Mence goes for DD as we bring in Scizor, then Scizor wins. If Mence uses Fire Blast against Gliscor as he passes, then BP OHKOes after 1 LO round and SR.
- Starmie: If it is outside of rain you win, as you can tank one water move, after Starmie breaks Gliscor's Sub, and then OHKO with Pursuit. Bulky Starmie has a 30% chance to burn you with Scald, but still the odds are not in its favor.
- Venusaur: Scizor can't beat it alone, but it checks it pretty damn good, as it deals ~67% on average
"Don't use one of the best Keldeo supporters in OU because then we can't use LO Infernape" is a pretty poor argument. We should be trying to make the best team possible around Gliscor + Keldeo, not avoiding using the best pokemon available so we can thrust creativeness down CCATs throat.
Variety is an element of CCAT, yes, but only for the first Pokemon imo. We take an original or rarely seen set and build a solid team around it, not build a team with multiple rare or lower tiered Pokemon for the sake of it.
Variety is an element of CCAT, yes, but only for the first Pokemon imo. We take an original or rarely seen set and build a solid team around it, not build a team with multiple rare or lower tiered Pokemon for the sake of it.
I'm actually tempted to support Tyranitar, the synergy with Gliscor seems interesting, and the fact that most of the checks to our actual threats are covered quite well by CBTar is nice too. I'd consider running enough speed to outpace Jellicent, which is a major annoyance right now, but I guess we can do this kind of fine tuning later in the process.
However for the sake of variety, I'm suggesting Mamoswine.
Mamoswine @ Life Orb | Thick Fat
Jolly | 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Spear
- Superpower / Stone Edge / Stealth Rock
Mamoswine covers most of the threatening pokes that were listed if we decide to go for HP Electric. Salamence, Dragonite suddently aren't an issue anymore, and Lati@s must be very careful to avoid dropping into Ice Shard's KO range. Most Celebi sets are slower, thus gets wrecked by STAB SE Icicle Spear, Venusaur is checked since again LO recoil can quickly drop it into Ice Shard's KO range, and is destroyed by Icicle Spear anyway if we can pass an intact Sub somewhat. Amoonguss is similar to Celebi. While Reuniclus and Gengar can't be defeated directly, they don't like, respectively, strong Earthquakes and priority, thus it's not even that bad in that case, adn we still have half a team to cover those two pokes.
It's also interesting how Gliscor can act as a "safey blanket" for Mamoswine while trying to revenge dangerous physical and faster threats, like DD Mence / ScarfMoxieMence / DD Dragonite. Gliscor can safely switch in those threats, then "dry pass" to Mamoswine while taking the boosted hit (or taking two Outrages, in MoxieMence's case), which can then OHKO with Ice Shard. This reduces the risk of having Mamoswine Koed by an Outrage / Superpower on the switch to zero, and allows us to lose no pokemon while stopping their sweep cold.
Mamo also adds a degree of flexibility in our future choices, since we're not forced to find a SR setter anymore (if we're starved for team slots, Mamo can set up SR for us).
The bad part is that Mamoswine stacks Water weakness with Gliscor and Grass weakness with Keldeo. This can be an issue to an extent, however with still half of the team to be picked it still can be fixed easily, for example with a Dragon of some sort.
However for the sake of variety, I'm suggesting Mamoswine.
Mamoswine @ Life Orb | Thick Fat
Jolly | 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Spear
- Superpower / Stone Edge / Stealth Rock
Mamoswine covers most of the threatening pokes that were listed if we decide to go for HP Electric. Salamence, Dragonite suddently aren't an issue anymore, and Lati@s must be very careful to avoid dropping into Ice Shard's KO range. Most Celebi sets are slower, thus gets wrecked by STAB SE Icicle Spear, Venusaur is checked since again LO recoil can quickly drop it into Ice Shard's KO range, and is destroyed by Icicle Spear anyway if we can pass an intact Sub somewhat. Amoonguss is similar to Celebi. While Reuniclus and Gengar can't be defeated directly, they don't like, respectively, strong Earthquakes and priority, thus it's not even that bad in that case, adn we still have half a team to cover those two pokes.
It's also interesting how Gliscor can act as a "safey blanket" for Mamoswine while trying to revenge dangerous physical and faster threats, like DD Mence / ScarfMoxieMence / DD Dragonite. Gliscor can safely switch in those threats, then "dry pass" to Mamoswine while taking the boosted hit (or taking two Outrages, in MoxieMence's case), which can then OHKO with Ice Shard. This reduces the risk of having Mamoswine Koed by an Outrage / Superpower on the switch to zero, and allows us to lose no pokemon while stopping their sweep cold.
Mamo also adds a degree of flexibility in our future choices, since we're not forced to find a SR setter anymore (if we're starved for team slots, Mamo can set up SR for us).
The bad part is that Mamoswine stacks Water weakness with Gliscor and Grass weakness with Keldeo. This can be an issue to an extent, however with still half of the team to be picked it still can be fixed easily, for example with a Dragon of some sort.
PenguinX i never said don't pick Ttar, i said it is better to not do so early. We may even want to choose Scarf Politoed later, to fix issues with Chloro and Sand Rush sweepers, but this won't be possible if we chose Ttar now. So let's better let the team take a more concrete form, and then we can chose Ttar. This is my opinion of 'course, and i don't want to enforce it to anyone, so pick whatever you want...
I'll go ahead and nominate Weavile, then.
Weavile @ Choice Band
Trait: Pressure
EVs:
32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
-Ice Shard
-Pursuit
-Low Kick
-Night Slash
Weavile, like CBTar, can pseudo-trap with a strong Pursuit. It's also a strong way to revenge Tornadus-T; Ice Shard deals 74-88%, an easy OHKO after SR. If Tornadus-T switches out, Pursuit deals the same amount of damage. The EVs are enough to outspeed Tornadus-T and below. Night Slash is for dealing with bulky Psychic types like Reuniclus and bulky Starmie; I don't see Ice Punch dealing with anything Keldeo can't handle. Low Kick OHKO's Terrakion, and deals 59-69% to standard Ferrothorn, crippling it.
I went with Choice Band to get the damage up against crucial threats like the aforementioned Tornadus-T; while a choice item is suboptimal on a SR-weak mon, I think the additional power is useful.
So Sand ruins random Life Orb sweepers that aren't even that good (Infernape.. really?) so we shouldn't run Keldeo's best supporter.. ? That doesn't make much since to me.
Anyways, I've always wanted to run Weavile, however it worries me since it cannot really do as much as Tyranitar like switching into Lati@s, but picking off Therians is cool. I just don't see how it's going to be trapping much unless you sacrifice a Pokemon beforehand or U-turn or Volt Switch it in.
Anyways, I've always wanted to run Weavile, however it worries me since it cannot really do as much as Tyranitar like switching into Lati@s, but picking off Therians is cool. I just don't see how it's going to be trapping much unless you sacrifice a Pokemon beforehand or U-turn or Volt Switch it in.
We can always run unnerve on Tyranitar.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 236 HP / 184 SDef / 88 Spd
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Spore
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Drain Punch
Team Latin America used this set in WCoP, and it was reposted by dragonuser just a few weeks ago. I've tested it out and found it extremely to my liking. At the moment, the lineup of Gliscor and Keldeo seems extremely Rotom-W weak, and seeing as the aforementioned threat is on every other team nowadays, it seems fitting that we have a decent check to it. SDef Breloom makes a great recipient of Gliscor's Subs, which allow it to activate its Toxic Orb right away without fear of getting smacked by an untimely Will-O-Wisp. This set in particular focuses on laying down Leech Seed and stalling or switching out for team support; Drain Punch and Protect in tandem with Leech Seed wear the opponent's Pokemon down extremely quickly, and Protect also serves a dual use in scouting out Choice-locked Pokemon such as the omnipresent Genesect.
tl;dr: this set wrecks face and makes a great partner for the current two Pokemon, vote for it
I'm actually tempted to support Tyranitar, the synergy with Gliscor seems interesting, and the fact that most of the checks to our actual threats are covered quite well by CBTar is nice too. I'd consider running enough speed to outpace Jellicent, which is a major annoyance right now, but I guess we can do this kind of fine tuning later in the process.
However for the sake of variety, I'm suggesting Mamoswine.
Mamoswine @ Life Orb | Thick Fat
Jolly | 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Spear
- Superpower / Stone Edge / Stealth Rock
Mamoswine covers most of the threatening pokes that were listed if we decide to go for HP Electric. Salamence, Dragonite suddently aren't an issue anymore, and Lati@s must be very careful to avoid dropping into Ice Shard's KO range. Most Celebi sets are slower, thus gets wrecked by STAB SE Icicle Spear, Venusaur is checked since again LO recoil can quickly drop it into Ice Shard's KO range, and is destroyed by Icicle Spear anyway if we can pass an intact Sub somewhat. Amoonguss is similar to Celebi. While Reuniclus and Gengar can't be defeated directly, they don't like, respectively, strong Earthquakes and priority, thus it's not even that bad in that case, adn we still have half a team to cover those two pokes.
It's also interesting how Gliscor can act as a "safey blanket" for Mamoswine while trying to revenge dangerous physical and faster threats, like DD Mence / ScarfMoxieMence / DD Dragonite. Gliscor can safely switch in those threats, then "dry pass" to Mamoswine while taking the boosted hit (or taking two Outrages, in MoxieMence's case), which can then OHKO with Ice Shard. This reduces the risk of having Mamoswine Koed by an Outrage / Superpower on the switch to zero, and allows us to lose no pokemon while stopping their sweep cold.
Mamo also adds a degree of flexibility in our future choices, since we're not forced to find a SR setter anymore (if we're starved for team slots, Mamo can set up SR for us).
The bad part is that Mamoswine stacks Water weakness with Gliscor and Grass weakness with Keldeo. This can be an issue to an extent, however with still half of the team to be picked it still can be fixed easily, for example with a Dragon of some sort.
Mamoswine could be great, but when I thought about it, I was more like considering an set like this :
Thick Fat
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Endeavor
- Stealth Rock
Wouldn't be this set better? I'm really wondering as I was pondering deeply between Mamoswine and Weavile.. and finally thought of Zapdos as a safe choice. Mamoswine isn't a pokemon that I use alot, so some enlightenments on which set to use would be great =D
I don't like that set, especially if we're going to pass a Sub to it: it's weaker, loses coverage, needs to be at low health to handle certain threats, which may be impossible, and forces us to pick a spinner. Sets like Defensive Celebi wall this thing cold (unless they bring it down to its sash, which may or may not happen, especially if they're carrying Leech Seed), while my own Mamoswine could easily wreck them with STAB Icicle Spear. And, while I already proposed a spinner the last round thus not being against picking it, I was thinking about things that can give us a much bigger payoff in return, like Volcarona or Dragonite. Picking one just to prevent Mamo's sash to break is not really great, and I'd rather keep my options open than do a suboptimal pick just to use that particular set.
Also, appreciation for the Breloom set. It looks very interesting especially behind a Sub. There are two or three sets actually that I like, it'll be hard to make a choice.
Also, appreciation for the Breloom set. It looks very interesting especially behind a Sub. There are two or three sets actually that I like, it'll be hard to make a choice.
.
Agreeing with ganj4lF i prefer his mamo set simply because it is a better sub reciever and it makes this ccat more open in terms of choices so we dont need to waste a slot for a rapid spinner just yet. Also that breloom set is quite unorthodox and i saw dragonuser post it in PotW and i have heard great things about it so props to lavos for nomming it!
Agreeing with ganj4lF i prefer his mamo set simply because it is a better sub reciever and it makes this ccat more open in terms of choices so we dont need to waste a slot for a rapid spinner just yet. Also that breloom set is quite unorthodox and i saw dragonuser post it in PotW and i have heard great things about it so props to lavos for nomming it!
Yeah, that Breloom is a boss but I can't see how it fits into this team. It has dual Fighting offensive synergy with Keldeo, but it doesn't have the offensive power to help weaken Keldeo's counters. In addition, it doesn't abuse the Sub Pass all that well, since its fairly easy to force out multiple times for common defensive mons.
How much longer is the nomination stage going to stay open by the way?
How much longer is the nomination stage going to stay open by the way?
I think Latias is a good partner for this team. Pokemon like Breloom (who laugh and bullet seed) are going to be a problem, right next to Keldeo (which breaks Gliscor's sub), Venusaur (who laughs at us), and Tornadus-T (who laughs harder). Latias has the ability to OHKO opposing Breloom / Venusaur (especially with the substitute) / Keldeo (and other common fighting Pokemon), and Torn-T (to an extent). It's only problem is the ice weakness covered by Keldeo, and the U-turn weakness (which Gliscor and Keldeo can eat).
I know Latias is a good partner, but what set should we lean on? That's what puzzles me the most, and the EV spread best possible. I'm going to lean towards the LO bulky attacker set, since this team is meant for offense. If someone (hi Alexwolf) could come up with maybe an EV spread (like 24 sdef or something) that walls certain Pokemon that would be great. I'm actually going to play with calcs myself and edit / post when I have an appropriate EV number. Anyway, the set should look something like this:
@
Trait: Levitate
Nature: Timid (subject to change)
EV's: 252 Hp / 4 SDef / 252 Spe (subject to change)
~ Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
~ Psyshock
~ Surf / Thunder
~ Roost / Substitute
Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse:
While Draco is more powerful, we aren't going to be switching much under a substitute so I would lean on Dragon Pulse. This is Latias's main STAB and will dish out powerful blows of damage. DMeteor can be slashed for those who want to use it for wallbreaking, however, I do not recommend anyone do so.
Psyshock:
Latias's second STAB and most important. It will hit Blissey / Breloom / Keldeo / Terrakion / Ammongus / etc. super hard, especially with LO boosted hits. With CM Keldeo, and sand up with Terrakion, Psychic is out of the question as it won't always OHKO whereas Psyshock can.
Surf / Thunder:
This may seem a bit odd, recommending Thunder. However, it allows us to hit bulky water types and Tornadus-T without having to lose special attack / DPulse won't KO. Surf is just best in general for hitting steel types, although arguably HP Fire does this better, I prefer the speed tier. This is basically a coverage move slot and any other attack, like HP Fire or Ice Beam would work fine, but I choose the one's I would mainly go with. If anyone has good, valid points why it should change then I'm just fine with that.
Roost / Substitute:
I'm actually going to go with Roost here to maximize it's bulky sweeping capabilities. Substitute is fine too, but we already have Gliscor and I feel it's more of a liability. Roost helps take sand damage / LO recoil much better, though if I'm missing something please point it out for me ^^
tl;tr:
Latias is a great member for it's bulk and ability to fend of Breloom / Amo / Keldeo / Sun and should be considered as a partner. Also, note that I am playing with EV's as we speak. (Like how much investment needed to make Torn-T easier to manage).
I know Latias is a good partner, but what set should we lean on? That's what puzzles me the most, and the EV spread best possible. I'm going to lean towards the LO bulky attacker set, since this team is meant for offense. If someone (hi Alexwolf) could come up with maybe an EV spread (like 24 sdef or something) that walls certain Pokemon that would be great. I'm actually going to play with calcs myself and edit / post when I have an appropriate EV number. Anyway, the set should look something like this:
Trait: Levitate
Nature: Timid (subject to change)
EV's: 252 Hp / 4 SDef / 252 Spe (subject to change)
~ Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
~ Psyshock
~ Surf / Thunder
~ Roost / Substitute
Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse:
While Draco is more powerful, we aren't going to be switching much under a substitute so I would lean on Dragon Pulse. This is Latias's main STAB and will dish out powerful blows of damage. DMeteor can be slashed for those who want to use it for wallbreaking, however, I do not recommend anyone do so.
Psyshock:
Latias's second STAB and most important. It will hit Blissey / Breloom / Keldeo / Terrakion / Ammongus / etc. super hard, especially with LO boosted hits. With CM Keldeo, and sand up with Terrakion, Psychic is out of the question as it won't always OHKO whereas Psyshock can.
Surf / Thunder:
This may seem a bit odd, recommending Thunder. However, it allows us to hit bulky water types and Tornadus-T without having to lose special attack / DPulse won't KO. Surf is just best in general for hitting steel types, although arguably HP Fire does this better, I prefer the speed tier. This is basically a coverage move slot and any other attack, like HP Fire or Ice Beam would work fine, but I choose the one's I would mainly go with. If anyone has good, valid points why it should change then I'm just fine with that.
Roost / Substitute:
I'm actually going to go with Roost here to maximize it's bulky sweeping capabilities. Substitute is fine too, but we already have Gliscor and I feel it's more of a liability. Roost helps take sand damage / LO recoil much better, though if I'm missing something please point it out for me ^^
tl;tr:
Latias is a great member for it's bulk and ability to fend of Breloom / Amo / Keldeo / Sun and should be considered as a partner. Also, note that I am playing with EV's as we speak. (Like how much investment needed to make Torn-T easier to manage).
Well, Gliscor's baton pass lets us get it in, and we can emphasize other nominations with uturn/volt switch/baton pass.
Edit: apologies for spelling/grammar, on phone.
Latias fix many issues, but not the Ghost (Jellicent/Gengar, even if Gengar wont come in when Latias is there) and not the Dragon (looking a your Dragonite) issue.
I feel like it's impossible to cover everything with one pokemon.. maybe we could really be thinking by now for a great duo in the future (and by the way Mamoswine/weavile + Latios seems quite sexy to me.. or Zapdos + Steel/Ttar [Breloom not so sweet here at second glance] :D ).
I feel like it's impossible to cover everything with one pokemon.. maybe we could really be thinking by now for a great duo in the future (and by the way Mamoswine/weavile + Latios seems quite sexy to me.. or Zapdos + Steel/Ttar [Breloom not so sweet here at second glance] :D ).
I meant to say checks Dragonite after rocks (since +1 is still a problem). Jellicent is major set up bait for Keldeo since we run HP Electric. Gengar is also checked by Latias. As you said yourself, it fixes many issues. Latios can't function as well as Latias can for this team because of loss in bulk. We can obviously fix the dragon issue with another teammate, but it's nice to have a check like Latias who outpaces most non-scarf variants.
Playing off the Substitute switch in I propose
Chandelure @ Life Orb
Nature: Modest
Ability: Flash Fire
252 SpA/220 Spe/ 36 HP
Flame Charge
Heat Wave
Shadow Ball
Hidden Power Fighting
+ 1 Speed from Flame charge puts Chandelure at enough speed that allows it to outspeed Life Orb Tornadus-T and Venusaur if Speed isn't heavily invested
Suppose you switch into Tornadus-T
Flame Charge + Heat wave is a Kill on Tornadus-T outside of weather, Within Rain Shadow ball has a slight chance to OHKO after Flame Charge (Guaranteed if you have stealth rocks)
Meanwhile if you are in rain there's a 68.75% chance for Tornadus-T to OHKO you with Hurricane in the chance that he's even able to attack you.
But anyway yeah, you have your check to that entire list, and HP Ground for Heatran and Tyranitar
You have fire immunity and Fighting immunity, and good offense
Chandelure @ Life Orb
Nature: Modest
Ability: Flash Fire
252 SpA/220 Spe/ 36 HP
Flame Charge
Heat Wave
Shadow Ball
Hidden Power Fighting
+ 1 Speed from Flame charge puts Chandelure at enough speed that allows it to outspeed Life Orb Tornadus-T and Venusaur if Speed isn't heavily invested
Suppose you switch into Tornadus-T
Flame Charge + Heat wave is a Kill on Tornadus-T outside of weather, Within Rain Shadow ball has a slight chance to OHKO after Flame Charge (Guaranteed if you have stealth rocks)
Meanwhile if you are in rain there's a 68.75% chance for Tornadus-T to OHKO you with Hurricane in the chance that he's even able to attack you.
But anyway yeah, you have your check to that entire list, and HP Ground for Heatran and Tyranitar
You have fire immunity and Fighting immunity, and good offense
Oh my bad, I totally forgot Keldeo was meant to carry HP Electric.
Minus the ice weakness (well Zapdos is not better on this point..) and the dragon weakness (that can be fixed anyway as you said) it seems to be a solid pick...
Ok this is my last time I'm quoting instantly after the response, next time it will appear in an edit on my previous post (for those mods getting mad xD).
Keldeo resist ice, so I don't see your point there ;] We'd just pass into Keldeo if we thought an Ice attack was comming. I already covered the dragon weakness concern in my previous post.
May I ask why attack should be boosted? This set is similar to ChargeTran- but Chanelure has about 20 attack less, so there is no point in investing in attack, because the move is only really supposed to be used as a way to boost speed, and not actually deal damage. Your spread is inefficient.Playing off the Substitute switch in I propose
Chandelure @ Life Orb
Nature: Hasty
Ability: Flash Fire
252 SpA/ 252 Spe/ 4 Atk or 98 Atk/252 SpA/160 Spe
Flame Charge
Heat Wave
Shadow Ball
Hidden Power (Ice)
+ 1 Speed from Flame charge puts Chandelure at roughly 398 Speed (if 252 is invested), which allows it to outspeed Life Orb Tornadus-T and Venusaur if Speed isn't heavily invested
Suppose you switch into Tornadus-T
Flame Charge + Heat wave is a Kill on Tornadus-T outside of weather, Within Rain Shadow ball has a slight chance to OHKO after Flame Charge (Guaranteed if you have stealth rocks)
Meanwhile if you are in rain there's a 68.75% chance for Tornadus-T to OHKO you with Hurricane in the chance that he's even able to attack you.
But anyway yeah, you have your check to Venusaur and Breloom, and you can wreck some dragons with HP ice
You have fire immunity and Fighting immunity, and good offense
Speed can be lowered some for more EV's into attack
I would use 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe Modest- which outspeeds max speed Tornadus-T after a Flame Charge, hits with maximum power, with the rest stashed into HP for bulk. Outspeeding Venasaur is pointless, because unless it has EQ it's not touching you anyway, nor will it dare switch in on you in the Sun. Even if you wanted to outspeed Venasaur, the only set you're outspeeding is the SubSeed set- which is uncommon.
@Bubbly I swear the last time I checked it said HP Ground @.@ Either way, that should be fixed as well