np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 8 - Mr. Roboto (SEE POST #240)

Well I'm by no means qualified to vote but I thought I would share my 2 cents.
I agree with the concept that Genesect is overcentralizing the metagame. Every time I'm thinking up a concept for a team at the end I go, can this handle all forms of Genesect? I also have a really strong urge to put Genesect on the team, it's just so good. Not like it's hard to do that it can find a place on pretty much any team.
Also I've seen it effectively used in Ubers a few times, of course it isn't as dominant as a force as in OU, but it's definitely not useless there either.
Lastly I have a question to ask. If it would stay OU would it's usage drop over time with people getting more used to it and with the metagame adapting, or would he stay at the top of the statistics?

Took a while but I got it:

This battle pretty much sums up my ladder experience. 176 turns and the server couldn't add the win. :( (I'll try to talk more latter, right now I got to sleep)



OP doesn't make sense anymore now that the thread title was changed. D:

Chimpakt said:

so dumb how if you dont get people that are high up in the ladder early on you have to win 90% of your battles to get the glicko2 rating.

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Seconding this. I had ~1800 rating after roughly 20 battles and then had a really hard time raising glicko2 to 2000. When you gain like 2-3 points per win and lose like 30 if you lose (hax :O) that kinda screws you.

Anyways i finally got the req's after nearly 100 battles (so it took me ~80 battles to get from 1800 to 2000 - yay):



I have been using an very old (end of 2011) BW1-Sunstallteam (as i did for most of the BW2 era on the ladder) and didnt have much if any problems with Genesect. I have never been swept by Genesect since his introduction and based on my own experiences i deem him NOT Uber.

People claiming that stall is more viable on the suspect-ladder (the one without genesect) are honestly out of their minds. Genesect isnt a huge threat to any well-build stall team more than LO-NP-Thundurus-T, SD-Haxorus, Growth-GigaDrain-Venusaur, Tornadus-T, etc. are. If im using stall im way more scared of these guys than Genesect.
Sure Genesect is a good pivot and his u-turn may enable him to put pressure on me but that is nothing new - we have had to deal with that shit throughout the whole bw1 era (voltturn yay).

I think Genesect fits perfectly fine into the metagame and doesnt put as much as a strain on teambuilding as for example Tornadus-T does because one can check Genesect with having multiple 'checks' to him which also accomplis other roles well (i.e. Terrakion).

I think Genesect is just so versatile that its really easy to fit on teams kinda like Tyranitar in ADV. Almost any team can make use of one of his multitude of sets and Genesect can fulfill multiple roles. So he can sweep (RP), check threats (scarf) or break/weaken certain key mons (cb, ebelt, w.e.) and he does all this well but he cant do it all at once.
Therefore he is versatile and useful but not broken.

I kinda like the Metagame right now to be honest and id rather see us unban stuff (Thundurus-I!!!!) than banning something.

Now onto the suspect-ladder.....

dragonuser said:

I think I only played one well made dragon spam team, and that was Jabba's. It was a pretty effective playstyle/team, and I can see it getting a lot more usage with Gene gone. But to really answer your question, I found that dragons are better/stronger now but aren't really game breaking or anything, especially when compared to Rain.

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Yes as expected they, were not op before and they are not op with out gene, even with garchomp who suffers most at the hands or should i say claws of gene.

golden eagle

Made both reqs, this being the suspect one. Pretty cool metagame if you ask me and it really widens the choices that you can use team wise. Stall is much more viable this metagame and it makes playing more exciting. Will be making a long post probably to sum everything up from both ladders.

Also I am sorry to everybody I flamed on the ladder. I didn't mean and I am sorry if I offended you.

http://puu.sh/1rmIK

Just made both reqs, using very similar sand teams with RP Genesect & defensive Celebi in the current OU and RP Landorus & CB Scizor in the suspect ladder.

I enjoyed playing in the suspect ladder far more than the current OU, primarily because it is very refreshing not to encounter a Genesect in >60% of my battles (although I abused it myself). It is insanely easy to sweep with Genesect, and its coverage means that sometimes I don't need a RP boost to flat out sweep teams with a bit of support. Although people argued that there are numerous checks to Genesect, bear in mind that the offensive nature of the metagame means it is very easy to weaken these checks for a late-game sweep, and people just aren't inclined to run stall anymore. Also, as mentioned by Princess Bri, Genesect can also wreck early or mid-game, despite me using Life Orb. I only recall facing one opposing RP Genesect though, which is quite surprising as that thing is everywhere on the PO Ladder.

The fact of the matter is, my experience on the PS Ladder shows how devastating RP Genesect is as people are still surprisingly unprepared for it. I honestly don't know shit about how a ban will affect the metagame, but I imagine it'll encourage diversity as a great portion of teams are built around Genesect at the moment (as it should be, it's fucking amazing). Leaning towards its ban.

nooblikeaboon said:

I have been using an very old (end of 2011) BW1-Sunstallteam (as i did for most of the BW2 era on the ladder) and didnt have much if any problems with Genesect. I have never been swept by Genesect since his introduction and based on my own experiences i deem him NOT Uber.

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But you're using sun stall, which by definition should counter Genesect itself. Ninetales, Heatran, Chansey and Cresselia (which I assume you run) all handle RP Genesect well until you meet that one guy who runs RP Bug Buzz / HP Ground Genesect to screw you over. Then again, there is the U-turning CB/CS Genesect that can then trap your Ninetales and Heatran, but I digress. I can understand how you feel Genesect is not uber material, but just keep in mind that sun stall is probably one of the very rare playstyle that can keep RP Genesect from sweeping.

I've run into my fair share of RP Genesect. I'm beginning to think that perhaps it should be treated as any other borderline offensive Pokémon: assume the sweeper over *insert other role here* because you have more to lose in that case. Notably, though, the argument that you "had" to assume the sweeper and then get owned by the other set was used to ban Pokémon before (like Gen IV Salamence). So...

My full team is something along the lines of Ninetales, Dugtrio, Xatu, Slowbro, Chansey, Volcarona so no Heatran/Cresselia here.

Ive also used an odd Rainstallteam and seen some people use some interesting rainstall-teams (im lookin at you kidogo) and they all handled Genesect well too. Therefore i also do not understand why people assume that Genesect hinders stall in any way and that the suspect-ladder allows stall to flourish more. Stall usually has multiple protect-users making one able to scout Genesects set and therefore able to wall it (send in sdef-wall vs rp, and outpredict scarf, ebelt with u-turn might be the only one creating any form of trouble).

I can see why offensive teams may have trouble vs. RP-Sect but frankly RP-Lando and Agility-Thund-T are also pretty threatening for them.

Melee Mewtwo said:

This battle pretty much sums up my ladder experience. 176 turns and the server couldn't add the win. :( (I'll try to talk more latter, right now I got to sleep)

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Good lord this battle is painful to watch. On another note, I am finding most genesect variants easily countered by Kyurem-B. To the point that I can easily set up a sub and do some hone claws shenanigans

this is for the ou suspect.

Its kinda confusing how stall is more prevalent on the suspect ladder than the current OU one. In BW2, Genesect is really the least of stall's problems and I don't think I've every had a problem with Genesect whilst running defensive teams recently. The only playstyle that should really be getting a boost is offense because it doesn't have to try and tackle RP Genesect, not that offense needs to be any stronger.

Speaking of RP Genesect, I'm kind of disappointed how many people were pro-ban before even going into suspect. The set only gained popularity with the masses less than a month ago but I'm still seeing exactly the same teams all over ladder that I was seeing 4 weeks ago, just with RP Gene over ScarfGene. It looks like very few people have even attempted to adapt to this metagame shift. When a new set becomes popular, we don't just sit around reluctant to adapt to it and ban it at the earliest oppurtunity; we stop using the teams that flat-out lose to said threat. If you continue to use teams that Genesect easily sets-up on and sweeps then of course you are going to be pro-ban. Part of Pokemon is adapting to metagame shifts, and forcing players to take a more defensive approach doesn't make Genesect broken. I'm not necessarily against a Genesect ban but I do think people are being a bit quick to just ban something they don't enjoy facing, rather than actually looking at options to keep RP Genesect at bay. Metagames where there is one clearly dominant threat always favour the best and inventive teambuilders, and I'm pretty disappointed in the community as a whole in the approach to the rise of RP Gene.

Also yeah this centralizing argument is terrible. If being centralising was a reason to ban something then Politoed and Ninetales would have been on the chopping block a long time ago.

Stall is greatly affected by Genesect, because a standard EB or Scarf set with U-turn / Ice Beam / Tbolt / Flamethrower usually threatens at least half the members of a stall team, easily forcing those pokes out and starting gaining momentum which is very difficult to reclaim with your stall team. I don't believe there is another poke in the meta that can force out such large amount of pokes as Genesect atm, and this in itself is pretty disturbing.

In my experience genesect was never a problem for stall teams. The majority of people run choice set, so you can just check its move with protect and send out a pokemon that resists its move. Speaking of Rock polish genesect, it cant touch chansey, so its not that problematic.

PenguinX said:

Also yeah this centralizing argument is terrible. If being centralising was a reason to ban something then Politoed and Ninetales would have been on the chopping block a long time ago.

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On the suspect ladder: Genesect 53%, all 5 weather starters combined 58%. In other words, Genesect alone is nearly as common as all 4 different types of weather. And it's possible to beat weather teams by outplaying them, as long as your team isn't overly weak to what that weather is doing. To beat Genesect, you have to carry specific counters, and hope that your opponent isn't running a set you can't counter. There's a difference between something being common and powerful, and something being so overpowering you have to change multiple team members just to have a chance.

Well, since I doubt I could ever meet the requirements to vote, I wanted to post my thoughts on Genesect.

In all honesty, I don't think Genesect is really broken. True, it has fantastic coverage, a great ability, and can be very threatening, but I feel that one thing holds it back from being completely broken: that 99 base speed.

If Genesect was just a bit faster, then yes, I feel that it probably would be broken. But because of that speed, it suddenly becomes threatened by a whole slew of things. The common Scarf set is out sped by several common other scarfers, such as MoxieMence, Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Keldeo, Jirachi (and to that extent, any of the other 100-across-the-board pixies, should they use a scarf), not to mention threats such as Chlorophyll sweepers like Venusaur. Also, once it locks itself into one move, it's pretty easy to come in and do whatever you want.

Any non-scarf set suffers similar problems. Although it has the freedom of choosing moves, that speed just isn't quite enough in this metagame. The notable exception to this is RP Genesect, but even with its great coverage, there are still solid answers to it, such as Heatran, Rotom-W (if not running Giga Drain), Rotom-H, and Chansey. These pokemon aren't totally useless outside of checking Genesect, either.

This is just my opinion, but I think Genesect is a bit overhyped. That speed stat just really hurts it, no matter what it tries to do. I can see why people think its overpowered or over centralizing, but it's just not perfect.

In every battle I have had with Genesect, which has been since August, I only saw ONE E- Belt one, Hundreds of scarfers, about 60 RPs, and around a dozen Life Orb 4 Atks ones. Scarf, as many have said, is annoyed by 4 Moveslot Syndrome, as it has to choose between HP Ground, Giga Drain, Bug Buzz, T-Blot,Flamethrower, and Ice Beam. Any wrong choice forces Genesect to switch out.


Genesects Flaws.

-Fire Types are a huge thorn in its side.
-99 speed is easily outsped by faster scarfers and a strong fire attack will OHKO Genesect.
-4 moveslot syndrome
-Tends to be a bit frail


These things combined makes Genesect NOT BROKEN IMO.

That's for the OU Current ladder. I'll post my thoughts later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Melee Mewtwo
This battle pretty much sums up my ladder experience. 176 turns and the server couldn't add the win. :( (I'll try to talk more latter, right now I got to sleep)

Hey, your opponent is using my stall team! He played very strangely though...what in the world was he doing keeping tenta in against taunt jellicent? PP stall I guess...

Oh nooblikeababoon, you're pleasure!
My rain stall team does not have chansey, so I'd be a bit weaker to RPsect, right? Well, as it happens, SpD jirachi (which I included not for genesect, but for tornadus-t and lati@s), tentacruel (physically defensive), and politoed (physically defensive) just about check every RPsect. Yes, a +1 LO thunder / ice beam / flamethrower set might be able to sweep me if jirachi was very weakened, but I included all these pokes for non-genesect reasons and I have very little trouble with him. In fact, I'm kinda thinking that getting rid of genesect would take away one reason to use stall--it's the only playstyle in which you can reliably check something as versatile as sect.

IMO the genesect set that is very dangerous for stall is the 4 attacks LO set, since I don't carry more than 1 poke faster than it and I can't switch in. However, this set is kinda impractical against anything other than stall, as it can't boost or scout.

I'm #1 in a bunch of pictures above (iambic) but I need to lower deviation--I'm going to be off PS for a while, so I may not be able to get reqs for this one.

Neliel Tu Oderschvank said:

In my experience genesect was never a problem for stall teams. The majority of people run choice set, so you can just check its move with protect and send out a pokemon that resists its move. Speaking of Rock polish genesect, it cant touch chansey, so its not that problematic.

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The problem isn't walling Genesect's choice set, but just being a victim to the switches it causes, which racks up hazard damage, and puts you in a disadvantageous match-up where you'll probably have to switch out and rack up hazard damage again. Scizor does the same thing, but unlike Scizor, Genesect runs a scarf set, allowing it to outspeed, force out, AND favorably pivot against important walls that would outspeed Scizor such as Latias, Hydreigon, Roserade, etc. Not to mention due to it being a scarf set, you can actually pull off an end-game sweep using more than one move (unlike CB Scizor, which can pretty much only sweep with Bullet Punch)

Also, not every stall team carries Blissey/Chansey, so it's very possible that RP Genesect can still threaten well-made stall teams.

Like most of the stall players have attested, Genesect is the least of stall's problems. Stall usually has at least 1 hard counter to RP Genesect and a few more checks. Scarf Genesect is just like any other fast U-turner (ie Scarf Landorus in BW1) - being choice locked and switching often, Genesect gets worn down by hazards FAST.

You can't compare weather abilities to a single pokemon like Genesect. (Which was a major point in justifing the Drizzle+SS complex ban) Although I do kind of agree with you that overcentralization =/= bad. Kyogre definitely centralizes the Ubers metagame but that doesn't stop it from being diverse and balanced. However, it can be a symptom of something ban-worthy (such as Drizzle+SS).


Meru got it right. Genesect's Scarf and coverage is what makes it more threatening than Scizor and Download plus STAB U-Turn makes it scarier than Scarf Landorus.



I want to make post to talk about my ladder experiences but my DSi has a character limit. Can I bother you mods with mergeing multiple posts or would you prefer I wait?

Just posting my ou suspect test ladder for now will do get ou ladder next week or whenever.

Dont know how to add image so here is the link.

http://imgur.com/MbyE8

My name is Whales in that screen shot. And my experience with no gene ladder is similar to others and that it diversifies the OU ladder a shit ton more.

How do I make these screenshots? Getting close to oucurrent reqs and I wanna get a pic as soon as I make them.

Pocket EDIT: Do the following:

1) Have your ladder rank showing on the screen
2) Press PrtSc or Print Screen on your keyboard (this will copy whatever is on your computer screen)
3) Paste it on Paint and Save it
4) You may crop out the surrounding to simply display your screenshot
5) upload it on photobucket.com or other image hosting sites (register an account if you haven't)

Joeyboy said:

How do I make these screenshots? Getting close to oucurrent reqs and I wanna get a pic as soon as I make them.

Pocket EDIT: Do the following:

1) Have your ladder rank showing on the screen
2) Press PrtSc or Print Screen on your keyboard (this will copy whatever is on your computer screen)
3) Paste it on Paint and Save it
4) You may crop out the surrounding to simply display your screenshot
5) upload it on photobucket.com or other image hosting sites (register an account if you haven't)

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Easier way: Go to puush.me, download sofware and make an account (it's worth it, really). Use the capture area option and it'll immediately upload

:)