Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Tabuu said:

Ouch. That hurt. Heatran was only good for countering Genesect? I disagree my friend. Heatran had quite the usage statistics before the introduction to Genesect. In the August statistics, Heatran was in fact ranked 5th. After the introduction to Genesect he actually fell down to 6th (not huge but still).
Heatran ,over the generations, has given itself a very good title and has solidified itself well into B2W2 OU, despite all the new Pokemon. For starters, Heatran was blessed with an amazing typing, a great ability, a versatile movepool, a plethora of ways that it could be used, and it was granted the unique fact that it is so easy to throw in Heatran (synergistically speaking). Heatran is part Steel a beautiful typing in terms of defense. Unlike many other Steels, Heatran was given quite a viable alternate STAB. With Fire Blast STAB, or Lava Plume or even Magma Storm, it was granted the ability to roast other Steel types, Grass Types, Ice Types and Bug Types. But there's more. Heatran has Flash Fire. It grants him a beautiful immunity allowing him to check a great number of Pokemon. Heatran has also gained the title of being a problem for Sun teams. Their Fire moves will only benefit Heatran, and with a respectable base Sp.Attk along with Sun+Flash Fire+STAB, Heatran will be doing massive damage to Sun teams. Heatran was not only used for Genesect. Heatran ended up being a pretty decent check to Tornadus-Therian, if it was in a range where Superpower or Focus Blast wouldn't kill. Heatran also gave trouble to Jirachi, Venusaur (w/o EQ), Dragonite (if it hasn't boosted or carries FP), Latios, Latias, so forth. Heatran also has the great ability for being able to trap other weather inducers. I could keep on going and going, but Heatran really is a great Pokemon, that has much more use than checking Genesect.
Dugtrio won't drop much either, if at all. Dugtrio is used to trap and kill other weather inducers along with other troublesome Pokemon. The fact that Heatran will not drop after Genesect is gone, disproves your argument of Dugtrio falling because would fall.
Just understand that Heatran was, is and will be for quite some time, a solid Pokemon in the OU tier.

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i never said heatran was not good.

Another thing that i dont like is that Kyurem is rank B. Kyurem is not used at all these days. He is weak to SR very bad defensive types and movepool. In my opinion he barely deserves C. As we see pokemon such as Haxorus and Infernape unfairly being thrown in rank C Kyurem is in rank B even though he has only 1 viable set which is easily countered by a big portion of the ou metagame.

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This is completely wrong. I was the one who nominated Kyurem for B tier along with Pricess Brii and .....(I forgot). Go back a few pages and find my reasonings for it. I do not feel like repeating myself. Anyways, whose fault is it that Kyurem is not used? It is actually the playerbase's mentality - "Hey, I heard Kyurem is in BL; it sucks! I will not use it and I refuse to try using it ever!" Kyurem's low usage stems from its initial mediocriy. Alot of people arent even aware of the addition of Earth Power and Roost to its movepool. I would actually say that Kyurem is better than Haxorus. Which viable set are you talking about? The subroost set? OK. I hope you can find a counter to it because I couldnt. Just dont bring up Jirachi and Blissey. The former is 2hkoed by Earth Power and the latter is PP stalled. What do you mean by bad movepool? What move does it not have that would otherwise help it beat something it cannot already? It can also use a life orb attacker set with Draco Meteor/Ice Beam/Earth Power and Focus Blast. Only Blissey and Chansey can wall this set. Kyurem also has an Ice-neutrality. Anyway, I feel like I am ranting. I will just leave these following replays:
Watch them if you want to; I am not forcing you.
EDIT: The replay are a bit meesed up for some odd reason. Just follow the actual links. Dont click on the descriptions; they all lead to the same match.

Haxorus is better than Kyurem in every single aspect

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NO it is not! Haxorus doesnt have Kyurem's bulk and recovery or pressure.

Wow I did not realise Scizor was rank B until now. Scizor is definitely A.

CBzor is still a very good check to non-steel members on offensive teams, and the ability to trap Lati@s/ Gengar is huge, especially with Deoxys-D/Gengar everywhere.

I've also been using SDzor as a late game sweeper, and as long as all fire/water types are weakened/ gone, Pinchy Bug Man absolutely rapes face.

So...

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

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Move Terrakion to A Rank.
Ok, we know Terrakion has a great coverage, excellent speed, ability to bring down by itself some of his worst nemesis like Gliscor, but what are Terrakion flaws?
Weakness to priority, now that Genesect is banned Scizor will once again rise and take it's older position, Breloom is also a terrible problem, and by no means something that should be left unchecked, so exactly, how those flaws are mitigated? You just have to hope Terrakion attacks Scizor or Breloom in the switch in or use Substitute, but in the long run, Scizor and Breloom are troublesome for him, so yeah, this alone makes Terrakion ''not that good'' and I mean, terrakion is good, very good but by no means S Rank.

Also, I would like to propose Jirachi for S Rank.

Yes, you heard that right, Jirachi.
Think about it, Jirachi is perhaps the most unpredictable 'mon in the game, ''sure this Jirachi has Leftovers, it has to be Special Defense, well I'll just send Ferrothorn, in order to set up hazards...'' Ops, too bad it's sub cm and here's gonna make your days a hell lot worse.
''Uhm, so this Jirachi has no Leftovers, it's choice scarf, no doubt'' after you said that you find out that in reality it's just a MixRachi with Thunderbolt/Thunder, so that your Skarmory is easily killed.
Now that Genesect is banned Jirachi is most definitely the scarfed that can patch up Genesect void better than anyone else, Rachi also got trick and better bulkyness (in exchange, the attack is a bit less). Let's not forget that Jirachi is also a fantastic Stealth Rock user.
Probably Jirachi isn't a powerhouse like say... Terrakion or Salamence but Jirachi can surely perform multiple roles effectively, like say, Special Defense, a great glue for many teams, Sub Calm Mind, the worst opponent you would like to face, Wish Calm Mind, a bit less used but completely shits on all Hippowdown- less or Gastrodon- less stall teams in the long run, choice scarf which is also a great glue usable in all kind of teams and MixRachi or whatever you want to call him (superachi?) who acts as a great lurer.
Jirachi flaws? they aren't very much, other than making someone rage at paraflinch, or Dugtrio

Just pointing out that you listed a single flaw Terrakion has. If you want to move it down from S rank, you might need more the one negative, especially as its well known that Terrakion has counters / checks (as do most pokemon in S rank) but regardless, its such a goddamn threat in this metagame its top tier despite being weak to Scizor and Breloom.

Using your own arguement I could claim that Politoed is only A rank for example due to it being weak to Breloom, or Deoxys-D should be A rank because it is weak to Tar / Scizor etc etc. Basically, just because a pokemon is weak to x doesn't always mean that its not suspect material.

Jirachi isn't really S rank, as while its undoubtedly a top tier pokemon, it does suffer a little from 4MSS, as well as not being massively difficult to check. Sure, its unpredictable, and it lucks the shit outta you, but you can usually make an estimate as to what what set it is running, due to having access to Team Preview and scouting during he course of that match. Personally, on the ladder newer players tend to struggle against it (or sometimes newly built teams) so perhapes I can understand why you hype Sub CM as such a threat, but IMO its not quite S Rank.

I think it now seems appropriate that Tornadus-T should be in S-rank. With Genesect out of the way, it has lost one of its most popular checks, plus sun teams have taken quite a big hit with the loss of one of their most useful teammates. The usage statistics of the recent Suspect ladder show Tornadus-T is one of the most dominant threats in a Genesectless OU metagame, so I really don't see any reason why it isn't S-rank already, especially when it's basically the sole reason people even bother to specifically pack at least one bulky Flying resistance on every team.

emirinho said:

You are talking about relevant arguments and you say that gastrodon is ok in B.
Anyways let me explain you why should Slowbro be in rank B in detail:
Everyone knows that Slowbro packs incredible bulk. He can take on many physical attackers and then successfully regain health or cripple with T-wave or Toxic. You say that Slowbro doesnt counter Terrakion well it takes only 40% from CB X-Scissor. It can easily Slack-off the damage. Now lets take some other Pokemon into account. For instance gyarados. +2 Gyarados can not take out Slowbro while slowbro can simply t-wave and recover its health by Slack-off. I simply dont want to give any further arguments. Every reasonable person knows what i am talking about.

Also, you are saying that Haxorus is slow, well there are many other slow pokemon but after +1 it could be gg. Haxorus is better than Kyurem in every single aspect

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Some people answered anyway, but I wanted to make something clear :

First I don't need to tell arguments for Gastrodon. You need to convince us to move it, not the contrary. Check the thread else, there are things that have been said and I don't feel like repeating it.

"252Atk Choice Band Terrakion (Neutral) X-Scissor vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Slowbro (+Def): 44% - 52% (176 - 208 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Terrakion (Neutral) Stone Edge vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Slowbro (+Def): 41% - 49% (165 - 195 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO."

A counter that is 2HKO on the switch with SR?
Yes there is a big difference between your "40%" and a 44-52.
And anyway even Stone Edge looks threatening. So no it is not a "counter" at all. A counter isn't supposed to lose a 1V1 after a switch.

Any reasonable person can read a damage calculator. I'm not even against Slowbro in B, but well..


Supporting Scizor in A also.
Not thinking Tornadus-T is S worthy given that Rain is pretty needed, I don't like the idea of putting in S a weather pokemon (but under Rain, no doubt it's S).
Supporting Jirachi in S, while ginganinja say many relevant things, when I think the versatility and the ability to go different routes should be more valuated in the ranking. And Jirachi is maybe the best pokemon right now for that.

The Silent Storm said:

So...

Move Terrakion to A Rank.
Ok, we know Terrakion has a great coverage, excellent speed, ability to bring down by itself some of his worst nemesis like Gliscor, but what are Terrakion flaws?
Weakness to priority, now that Genesect is banned Scizor will once again rise and take it's older position, Breloom is also a terrible problem, and by no means something that should be left unchecked, so exactly, how those flaws are mitigated? You just have to hope Terrakion attacks Scizor or Breloom in the switch in or use Substitute, but in the long run, Scizor and Breloom are troublesome for him, so yeah, this alone makes Terrakion ''not that good'' and I mean, terrakion is good, very good but by no means S Rank.

Also, I would like to propose Jirachi for S Rank.

Yes, you heard that right, Jirachi.
Think about it, Jirachi is perhaps the most unpredictable 'mon in the game, ''sure this Jirachi has Leftovers, it has to be Special Defense, well I'll just send Ferrothorn, in order to set up hazards...'' Ops, too bad it's sub cm and here's gonna make your days a hell lot worse.
''Uhm, so this Jirachi has no Leftovers, it's choice scarf, no doubt'' after you said that you find out that in reality it's just a MixRachi with Thunderbolt/Thunder, so that your Skarmory is easily killed.
Now that Genesect is banned Jirachi is most definitely the scarfed that can patch up Genesect void better than anyone else, Rachi also got trick and better bulkyness (in exchange, the attack is a bit less). Let's not forget that Jirachi is also a fantastic Stealth Rock user.
Probably Jirachi isn't a powerhouse like say... Terrakion or Salamence but Jirachi can surely perform multiple roles effectively, like say, Special Defense, a great glue for many teams, Sub Calm Mind, the worst opponent you would like to face, Wish Calm Mind, a bit less used but completely shits on all Hippowdown- less or Gastrodon- less stall teams in the long run, choice scarf which is also a great glue usable in all kind of teams and MixRachi or whatever you want to call him (superachi?) who acts as a great lurer.
Jirachi flaws? they aren't very much, other than making someone rage at paraflinch, or Dugtrio

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lie ginga did, an S rank poke may have some flaws, but usually its pros outmatch its cons by a large margin, and thats Terrakion's case. Yo talked about ''amaing coverage'', man, it 2HKOs EVERY POKEMON IN OU WITH ROCKS UP, so saying not even ''amazing'' fits terakion's STAB. The pokes you mentioned are checks, not counters, since there's no competitive battler in his right mind that dares swtching a breloom into a terrakion, and even if in the off-chance that lives (idk... sash?), then you have a serious problem, since you can predict all you want, but what if you are wrong? because i can switch into latias expecting the mach punch, or i can stay in and cc predicting the spore, you have a 50 50 chance in your hands, thats what i wanted to say (the same goes with scizor if it lives a cc on the switch, if you bp your opponent's switch, youre giving him momentum, if you uturn, your opponent can demolish you with another cc).

Rachi is more of a tricky subject, but the problem is that most of its sets are easily identified just with one turn u see wish: sp def, rachi doesnt get lefties: scarf, u see sub: sub cm (unless its sub para, but u know that by looking at one more move). I mentioned only those sets because i think they are the most usable. Also, rachi is too weak and slow in this metagame, and theres no stall to abuse with the sub cm, usually youre better off with defensive sets, which are hazards fodder and easy to counter.

Now im not saying rachi isnt a good poke, it obviously is, but, as the S-rank says, im not seeing Jirachi being suspect anywhere soon.

I've argued Jarachi for S-Rank 2-3 times during the course of this thread, all before the Gene ban. With Genesect gone, there really isn't much difference though. It's a great poke and deserves S-Rank. I can give reason upon reason for this to anyone interested in arguing. It has taken out 4 Pokemon on an opposing team before going down and it only fell because Protect worked twice in a row two separate times and the Ferro had Leech Seeded it.

I cannot stand that fucking pixie Jirachi. He has to be the most annoying pokemon to deal with in OU. Paraflinch, parafusion, paraflinchusion...whatever set it is, it's nerve-racking. Golurk is possibly the best thing to use to deal with it since it can't be paralyzed due to typing from Jirachi. Even then, since its slower, it doesn't need to be paralyzed to get flinched to death or KO'd by Ice Punch. Lets now break down the definition of S-Rank and see if it fits the description. (My comments are in bold)

S Rank:

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support
Seeing how its specially defensive set walls nearly all special attackers, I would say it fits this part. Physical attackers who lack ground or fire moves can get walled for the most part with the same set.

Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns").
It can set up SR, WishPass, and/or paralyze a pokemon that is your main sweeper's counter. All of this with little to no effort at all.

Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability.
It can run effective sets like Specially Defensive, Choice Scarf, WishPasser, and the infamous Paraflincher/Parafusion/Paraflinchusion. Of course there are other sets but these are just the most common. If you need a pokemon that can be offensive, defensive, or supportive and make people have no idea what it will do when it is first brought out, Jirachi is the one to go to.

If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.
Hmm, common weaknesses to ground and fire attacks? Less than stellar Base 100 Attacks stats? I believe that is completely outmatched by its many positives it brings to the table since 'Rachi can survive SE attacks, support all of its teammates, and get the job done offensively anyway. Hell, its immune to T-Spikes and resistant to Stealth Rock, too.

If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.
As far as I know, it isn't a suspect. I would be in favor of it being tested though.

Well, there is my breakdown of whether Jirachi is worthy of S-Rank by definition or not. By my explanation, I believe it is. Feel free to agree or disagree. I just hope my words actually have an impact on the readers, and PK since he is the one who is leading this thread.

there are way too many pokemon in the A tier. The tier should be pyramid based, but everything is only moving up the tiers.

I'd like to nominate Virizion for B-tier. While it CAN be easily walled, the CM set I use is actually extremely proficient in late game sweeping, if played correctly. It's bulk is quite surprising, and there have been very few moments where I have regretted having it on my team. It also makes for an unusual go-to poke against Sun teams as well, having great matchups against their Chlorophyll sweepers, whilst having Synthesis to use their own sun against them. All in all, definitely not A-tier due to it's crippling flying weakness, and competition with Breloom for a team slot, but very well worth a player's time, imo.

nygerman said:

there are way too many pokemon in the A tier. The tier should be pyramid based, but everything is only moving up the tiers.

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Not with how powerful the metagame has become. To thrive at all a Pokémon HAS to do its job damn well, whether that's offense, defense, or support, or it will fall to the wayside. Logically, there's going to be more top-tier threats in OU that are all equally viable and equally threatening in some way.

Look at Latios, Kyurem-B, and Breloom. They are all incredibly dangerous, but they work in different ways. Latios is extremely fast but also boasts some pretty good fire power that forces you to go on the defensive. Kyurem-B is much slower but also bulkier and much more powerful, which forces an offense/defense mindgame: He can be walled, but letting him in for free is arguably worse than having nothing to wall him because he IS going to tear a hole in something. Breloom is up there with Salamence and Terrakion in terms of how completely fucked you are if he sets up, which forces you to go on the offensive so he doesn't get a chance to do so.

Hiphopanonymous said:

I'd like to nominate Virizion for B-tier. While it CAN be easily walled, the CM set I use is actually extremely proficient in late game sweeping, if played correctly. It's bulk is quite surprising, and there have been very few moments where I have regretted having it on my team. It also makes for an unusual go-to poke against Sun teams as well, having great matchups against their Chlorophyll sweepers, whilst having Synthesis to use their own sun against them. All in all, definitely not A-tier due to it's crippling flying weakness, and competition with Breloom for a team slot, but very well worth a player's time, imo.

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Virizion's real claim to fame was beating Rain Stall, and with that play style being very rare in the current OU it lost one of its main niches. Combine this with the fact that Techiloom was released, which pretty much outclasses its Swords Dance set, and Virizion's use in the current OU isn't great enough for it to be B tier. Even the CM variant has been dealt a blow with rains biggest new addition in Torn-T being able to swat it away with ease, and everyone's new favorite special fighting type with CM is keldeo. Virizion is definitely at home in C considering nearly everything BW2 has brought has made it harder to use on teams.

Speaking of other fighting types, I would like to nominate Lucario for A tier. With Genesect gone he lost one of his best check's, and without gene around to do the job, very few hard counters/checks exist to beat lucario. He still has horrible 4MSS syndrome, but until you know what that move is your pretty much left in the dark with what to use to beat him, unless you have a Scarf Magnezone (lol), a Healthy Landorus-T or some other obscure set. He can definitly sweep the vast majority of the metagame with little support being necessary, and can fit onto a wide variety of teams. As a sweeper he is very hard to stop, and he has ample set up oppurtunties with his cool set of resistances. Great set up oppurtunitites include Choice Latios after a Draco Metoer, and Scizor's bullet punch, both being common sights in OU. A very big and hard to counter / check threat in OU, and is definitely up there with the other A tier mons.

EDIT: Agreeing with scizor for A tier because of afore mentioned reasons + the fact SD scor is so much better with gene gone

The difference is that Loom is surprisingly self-sufficient. If played correctly, it will almost always net you 2 kills factoring in Spore as a kill. Lucario needs alot of support; there is always 1 and usually 2 pokes that can completely stop a Luke sweep.

Toxicroak to C. Its too frail, as fast as rotom-wash but it is never scarfed, and its offenses are outclassed by infernape.
Infenape to B. Top 5 pokes, even without genesect, contains scizor (OHKo'd, cant OHKO with bp) ferro (ohkod without rain and heatran (ohko'd unless scarfed).
It also gets lovely priority, allowing it to pick off weakened breloom, it can straight up kill mamo, the anti meta poke, and life orb overheat can one shot gliscor. Also, it speedd ties with pony and terrakion, so if it is scarfed, it can do some late game clean up.

I am enjoying my sun team with specs gothitelle for politoed.

Rayquaza_ said:

Breloom's Spore definitely doesn't count as a kill.
It's one of the most predictable and telegraphed moves in the entire metagame, so everyone who faces a Breloom will always send their designed sleep absorber the turn it gets in.
And if you lack a sleep absorber, well, it's like lacking a phazer or a SR user in this metagame: your team won't go too far without one.

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Sleep absorber? Gliscor, Espeon, Xatu, Toxic Orb Breloom and Conkeldurr, Dragonite with a Lum Berry, and that's it(unless you count crap like Shed Shell Resttalk Heatran as a sleep absorber). Half of these pokes can't switch into Loom without dying. Natural Cure pokes aren't sleep absorbers, Breloom hits the switch-in with Low Sweep, and uses Spore again if it can't beat it.

Plenty of teams don't run or need these pokemon to succeed. Plenty of teams don't run or need a phazer to succeed also.

Toxicroak: SD is good but the set I've had success with is SubPunch LO. The combination of Sub/Focus Punch/Sucker Punch can always be a huge pain to deal with for offensive teams, and under rain Toxicroak can run LO for extra power and still be healing every turn. Ice Punch is also pretty good in situations where Focus Punch is walled and Sucker is inadvisable, so if you get the sub up its likely you're going to cause some trouble with this set.

Pros: 2 great sets (SD/SubPunch), good against offensive teams, sets up on most Keldeo, pretty good vs Ttar
Cons: Needs rain, sort of bad against the Hippo

I think B tier is perfect for it.

Kyurem-Black: This thing is stupidly bulky and its defensive typing is terribad physically but pretty good specially (Focus Blast and nonChoice Keldeo are the only problems). I think the key to using a more defensive set with him is Sub+Lefties (Sub is really good if Focus Miss is coming at you frequently), and either good hazard control or Roost to keep him healthy. Also this thing has Dragon Tail if it wants it which is an interesting option.

Pros: Excellent wallbreaker, good against rain and water types in general, basically its like a Hax with the option to go bulky
Cons: Ugly defensive typing physically, speed too slow to actually outspeed things

I think it should stay in A tier for now, it's more versatile than it gets credit for.

Skarmory: This guy seems pretty great, supposedly Genesect was shitting all over it when I was gone but with the rocket bug banned it feels like it might be able to go A tier to me. Its notable that if you use a specially defensive set it might be able to wall Tornadus-T in most situations (Heat Wave is a problem). I'm less confident with this than the other two though and should probably test it more.

READ THIS PLEASE AND AGREE!

I would like Hydreigon to become A Rank

That amazing movepool and coverage lets it break through evry wall. With Choice Scarf, he can be the best revnge killer out there becaus eof his fantastic coverage. Genesect is similiar to him because of his amazing coverage. Life Oeb doesn't waste his amazing coverage and allows him to kill everything like a boss.

Amazing defenses and being completely unpredictable is a major pro. So, I want many to go with A Rank because of its scarfing and wallbreaking capibilties.

TheStriker said:

READ THIS PLEASE AND AGREE!

I would like Hydreigon to become A Rank

That amazing movepool and coverage lets it break through evry wall. With Choice Scarf, he can be the best revnge killer out there becaus eof his fantastic coverage. Genesect is similiar to him because of his amazing coverage.

Amazing defenses and being completely unpredictable is a major pro. So, I want many to go with A Rank because of its scarfing and wallbreaking capibilties.

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Maybe seconding this? Hydreigon is definitely an underrated threat and he hurts everything like hell. I wouldn't call him the best scarfer, however. His odd speed hurts him, making him weak to faster revenge killers who have a type advantage over him (Salamence, the Lati twins, Terrakion and Keldeo being the major threats), and I personally feel that not allowing Hydreigon to switch moves is a waste of his fantastic coverage.

Is he A-tier material, though? Eh, maybe. I wouldn't complain if he was moved, that's for sure.

Ok now that Genesect is gone time to go through some Pokemon:

Skarmory

I am really torn about Skarmory right now. On the bright side, Genesect's recent banning made Skarmory much more viable, as Skarmory was pure set-up bait for RP Genesect, and in general hated Genesect. Skarmory was and still is one of the best physical walls in the game, with awesome bulk, resistances, reliable healing, Spikes and SR, and phazing (it can even use Taunt). This allows it to wall or check some prominent physical attackers such as Scarf Salamence, DD Mence locked into Outrage, any DDNite and CBNite locked into Outrage, choice Kyurem-B locked into anything bar Fusion Bolt, Scarf Terrakion, Mamoswine, physical Landorus, and Garchomp.

However, the fact that Skarmory is a purely defensive Pokemon that slows down the pace of the game does not help it in such a fast paced meta, especially when many of the special attackers that easily force it out can easily switch into it, namely Thund-T (with SR off), SubCM Jirachi, SubToxic Tentacruel, Specs Politoed, LO Latias, Rotom-W, Starmie, Magnezone, and Ninetales (with SR off). And giving a free switch in to those Pokemon is never a good thing, as most of them are quite difficult to wall, while the others are annoying to deal with due to particular reasons (Volt Switch and WoW on Rotom-W, Scald on Starmie, and SubToxic on Tenta). Also when using Skarmory, if one wants to really abuse its Spkiking ability, then he must dedicate a slot to a spin-blocker, as Skarmory is Rapid Spin bait, slowing down the team even more as more Ghosts are defensive Pokemon (except when running Gengar, but Gengar is usually seen on offensive teams, where Skarmory doesn't fit), which again is not such a good thing atm. Finally, while Skarmory certainly checks a lot of physical attackers, it cannot wall most S and A rank physical Pokemon as a whole, meaning that you cannot deal with them solely with Skarmory. For example, Skarmory can easily switch into ScarfMence and Scarf Terrakion, but not against DDMence and any other Terrakion, meaning that you must use more checks for those Pokemon. In fact Skarmory completely walls very few Pokemon in S and A rank, mainly Garchomp, who can still get past it if run on a sun team, Dragonite, and Breloom after Sleep Clause is activated. Against all other Pokemon Skarmory has to scout sets first, limiting its ability to freely switch in early game against Pokemon that it is supposed to handle, such as physical Landorus, physical Kyurem-B, and SpD Jirachi.

So even though Skarmory is still a very good poke, and it is the best all around Dragon-type counter ever if you use a SpD set in rain, it kind of struggles in this fast paced meta, or at least struggles enough to not be in A Rank. That's why i believe that Skarmory should remain in B Rank.

Breloom

Even though the banning of Genesect had little influence over Breloom, i think we should really consider putting Breloom in S Rank. Breloom's versatility, ability to sweep, and threat level were never this high. Breloom can run 4 different but all very destructive sets, namely SD, CB, SubPunch, and SpD with Leech Seed, which often have different check and counters. After sacrificing something to sleep, you bring in Latios thinking you will be able to revenge kill the SD set? Bam Breloom threatens for a 2HKO with LO Low Sweep or sets up a Sub proceeding to scout for your move and then smack you around with Focus Punch. You bring in Skarmory after Sleep Clause is activated? Bam CB Low Sweep 2HKOes with very little prior damage. But Breloom is not only versatile, it is also powerful, has Spore which often equals to a free kill, has good resistances to switch in against many defensive Pokemon, and finally has Mach Punch to serve as a very good revenge killer. It does so many things, and it does them so good, making it a huge influence in OU. I could say more but we all know how good Breloom is, and most of you have already a solid opinion about Breloom's ranking so i will stop here.

I dunno alexwolf, I can't see Breloom being S Rank. As in, if anything faster that is resistant to Mach Punch is still alive and healthy, Breloom will seriously struggle to sweep. Are you going to switch these Mach Punch resists in on Spore? Hell no, that's beyond stupidity. Unless your name is Xatu, that is.

Let's look at what's in S rank already. Well, the only true sweeper there is Terrakion. Terrakion has much greater dual-STAB coverage than Breloom (have I mentioned how terrible Grass/Fighting coverage is?). Can anything switch in on Terrakion? I mean stuff that's relevant, so no Golurk. Anyway, the answer to that is no. On the other hand, looking at Breloom, a ton of crap can switch in given that Sleep Clause is activated, as in most Pokemon that resist both of its STAB moves, which is really a lot. There are two foolproof revenge killers to Terrakion: Scizor and Breloom. On the other hand, if you're faster than Breloom and resistant/immune to Mach Punch (or even just bulky enough to take one), odds are you can revenge kill it. These Pokemon resistant/immune to Mach Punch are so commonplace that teams often have at least two of them by default. So, Breloom S-rank? I don't think so.

The thing is that Breloom is not only a sweeper. Breloom can put one Pokemon out of the game with Spore, except from a few select cases, has strong priority, and is very versatile as he can run sets that all require different counter and/or checks. Terrakion has none of those. Sure it can sweep better, but Breloom can do things other than sweeping, which is where its value lies. If only the SD set existed i wouldn't propose Breloom for S rank, but with all the different and effective sets he has, he is quite a force and is one of the best Pokemon i have used the past months.

Waking up is hard to do...

But seriously in many mus a sleeping pokmon might as well be dead. So if breloom gets off a spore whatever else it does feels "free."

I'm just going to split parts of this up...

alexwolf said:

The thing is that Breloom is not only a sweeper. Breloom can put one Pokemon out of the game with Spore, except from a few select cases, has strong priority, and is very versatile as he can run sets that all require different counter and/or checks.

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The last part of this is false. Breloom's sets all have that awful Grass/Fighting coverage in common, so they actually very frequently share the same checks and counters (removing Gliscor and Gengar for Technician sets since they don't like taking Bullet Seeds).

Terrakion has none of those. Sure it can sweep better, but Breloom can do things other than sweeping, which is where its value lies. If only the SD set existed i wouldn't propose Breloom for S rank, but with all the different and effective sets he has, he is quite a force and is one of the best Pokemon i have used the past months.

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"Sweeping better" is all that matters, really. Let's look at Breloom's sets: Physical attacker with Life Orb/Choice Band, Swords Dance, Choice Scarf, and Sub sets with Poison Heal. And once again, all of these sets have many checks/counters in common, and it's not like Scarf Breloom is common at all. Often times the Pokemon that actually gets put to sleep is that Pokemon that won't end up doing much for the rest of the battle anyway (I switch in the least useful member of my team into Spore a lot, why wouldn't I?) As for Sporing something.... Breloom's slow and frail, man. Not really a good combo. Best you can do is force out something weak to Mach Punch or choice-locked, but in the former case they may just end up predicting you to go for Spore and simply kill you.