CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 10 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

I don't have too much to say here. Check out the rules at the top of this thread to get an idea of what's going on here. Again, I implore you to read these rules thoroughly; we will not hesitate to give out infractions to those who don't follow the rules. Also, recall that both Ice Fang and U-turn are listed as allowed on CAP 5's movepool as a result of the most recent poll. Use this information to further guide the discussion in this thread.

This thread will serve as a continuation for our movepool discussion of CAP 5. The Movepool Leader (capefeather) will post his thoughts momentarily, and the discussion will commence!

CAP 5 so far:

Name: Malaconda




Typing: Grass / Dark
Threats: Link
Primary Ability: Harvest
Secondary Ability: Infiltrator
Stats: 115 HP / 100 Atk / 60 Def / 40 SpA / 130 SpD / 55 Spe

I'll start with a clarification, because some people seemed to be confused at whether VGMs not listed in these lists would be considered competitive and/or allowed. What I meant to do (and I believe one of the rules implies this) was to say that anything not on these lists are not considered competitive, so they will be allowed on movepool submissions using flavour-based justification. This would include stuff like Ghost-type moves. The point is to determine which moves are competitive on Malaconda, not in general. The list I gave in the attacking moves discussion was to exclude moves from the lists of competitive moves. That is, when the lists say that Rock-type attacks are not allowed, that refers only to physical moves at 60 base power or above, so moves like Power Gem are considered non-competitive.

With that out of the way: I anticipate that this discussion will more directly involve arguments concerning whether certain moves are pro-concept or anti-concept (or neither). This would be in addition to determining whether certain moves may make Malaconda too powerful. Pro-concept moves will probably be considered important and highly desirable, so I guess that's more incentive for potential submitters to lurk even if they're not going to participate!

My initial list is mostly based on the VGM list, excluding moves that fit the definition of "attacking move". The following VGMs are also excluded for being deemed non-competitive:

Acid Armor / Barrier / Cotton Guard / Iron Defense
Acid Spray
Amnesia
Calm Mind
Charge Beam
Cosmic Power / Defend Order / Stockpile
Hone Claws / Howl / Meditate / Sharpen
Pain Split
Nasty Plot / Tail Glow
Work Up

Below is the list of competitive moves up for discussion. I've categorized most of them into rough categories, and these categories will be the basis of the flow of discussion.

Pending

Nothing

Need Discussion

Nothing

Required

Sleep Talk
Substitute
Toxic

Allowed

Aromatherapy / Heal Bell / Refresh
Baton Pass
Block / Mean Look / Spider Web
Clear Smog / Haze
Confuse Ray / Teeter Dance
Destiny Bond
Detect / Protect
Encore
Healing Wish
Knock Off
Magic Coat
Magnet Rise
Memento
Moonlight / Morning Sun / Synthesis
Rapid Spin
Rest
Roar / Whirlwind
Sunny Day
Taunt
Torment
Volt Switch
Yawn

Disallowed

Disable
Gravity
Heal Order / Milk Drink / Recover / Roost / Slack Off / Softboiled
Ingrain
Leech Seed
Light Screen / Reflect
Lovely Kiss / Sleep Powder / Spore
Perish Song
Rain Dance
Stealth Rock
Switcheroo / Trick
Toxic Spikes
Trick Room
Will-O-Wisp
Wish
Agility / Autotomize / Rock Polish
Belly Drum
Bulk Up / Coil / Curse
Dragon Dance
Flame Charge
Growth
Shift Gear
Swords Dance
Quiver Dance
Shell Smash

Controversial

Glare
Spikes
Stun Spore
Thunder Wave

As before, if I missed a competitive non-attacking move, then please point it out so that it's not inserted into movepools as non-competitive moves! There is also a chance that a move that is not initially considered competitive is inserted after some existing moves are disallowed.

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I think that the recovery moves are the best way to start off. The nature of Malaconda's recovery options will likely impact most, if not all, of the rest of the discussion. Even the "obvious" Rest and Type-Move requirement Synthesis are in here, though personally, I would consider Rest *the* reason to use Harvest at all. Volt Switch is also around because, uh, because! Seriously, though, no comment on it will make it allowed, considering it has no real advantage over U-turn.

Let's do this!

I'd like to put my support behind Baton Pass. The main reasoning behind my thinking is this; we need Malaconda to not be a deadweight and to provide team support, and thus gain switch advantage due to its low speed. At the same time, U-Turn doesn't really do much for our concept, and it doesn't even 2hko offensive latios when uninvested.

0 Atk (custom) U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 122-144 (40.39 - 47.68%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(from uninvested, neutral-natured malaconda)

Plus, U-Turn opens up a big problem in a way that one is supposed to counter Malaconda - Heatran. This is so due to U-Turn's ability to break Heatran's balloon on the switch, and then go into Dugtrio for insta-ko. Though it is true that not every Heatran will be an Air Balloon variant, it'll be hard enough to get Heatran in when the foe has Dugtrio to begin with; even worse if no balloon.

Plus, I see some interesting sets involving pinch berry boost + Harvest Baton Passing, so Baton Pass isn't necessarily inferior; especially if we give Malaconda Coil or something.

So, if Malaconda does get U-Turn on its final moveset, perhaps we could at least consider giving it Baton Pass, as well?

I think that Will O' Wisp should be allowed on CAP5. Will O' Wisp gives Cap5 a much better match up against physically-oriented dragons, and it doesn't inhibit its counters so much so that they cannot viably counter it. The Fire types that would counter Cap5 are immune to it; no problem there. As for Scizor, I brought a few damage calcs with me:

252+ Atk Choice Band burned Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 372-438 (85.71 - 100.92%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO, 87.5% Probability to KO after Stealth Rock Damage.
40+ Atk Technician burned Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 270-320 (62.21 - 73.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician burned Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 416-491 (95.85 - 113.13%) -- 75% chance to OHKO -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Another thing to note about Scizor is that if it uses Bug Bite, a common move on sets that aren't choice band, it will immediately use the effect of the berry- meaning it will either gain 25% of its health back, or cure its burn.

Toxicroak-
252+ Atk Life Orb burned Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 149-177 (34.33 - 40.78%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
132+ Atk burned Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 105-124 (24.19 - 28.57%) -- possible 4HKO
Maybe it's a bit too good against Toxicroak. Combined with Dry Skin, Toxicroak will lose a quarter of its health when under sun and burned.

Breloom-
252 Atk Life Orb Technician burned Breloom Low Sweep vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 188-224 (43.31 - 51.61%) -- 8.98% chance to 2HKO, guaranteed after Stealth Rock.
Other Fighting-type moves Breloom commonly uses do little damage while Breloom is burned, barring Focus Punch

In retrospect, maybe burn is a bit too powerful. I'm thinking it be a little too good against dragons. It cancels out Dragonite's Multiscale to start, and can then tank most of its hits pretty well.
252+ Atk burned Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom) in sun: 136-160 (31.33 - 36.86%) -- 79.32% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom) in sun: 204-240 (47 - 55.29%) -- 72.66% chance to 2HKO

Ok I change my mind. I think Will O' Wisp should be disallowed

Volt Switch is largely redundant now that U-Turn has been allowed. There is no reason to use Volt Switch over U-Turn especially considering Ground types are immune. I guess that means there's no reason not to allow it, but there is absolutely no reason to allow it either.

Instant recovery moves should not be allowed, as Malaconda already has plenty of ways to recover through its ability. I would lump weather-dependent recovery moves in with this as well and disallow all instant recovery moves.

Leech Seed is a move that I think should definitely be allowed. As a defensive Grass type Malaconda deserves to have the option to run a sub-seed set. A set like this gives Malaconda the chance to out-stall Gliscor. Allow Leech Seed.

Pain Split is a terrible move that only becomes more terrible on a Pokemon with an HP as high as Malaconda. I see no benefit to allowing this move so it might as well be disallowed.

Rest needs to be allowed. Pretty much every other Pokemon gets it so it would just be silly to not allow it. I'm not worried about LumRest sets being overpowered as if you happen to lose your berry you become a sitting duck. Allow Rest.

Wish is a move that I really hope gets included. I've seen Wish Jirachi used on a few sun teams with varying success and I think Malaconda could do an even better job of providing Wish support to its team mates. With 115 HP Malaconda's Wishes will be sizeable and very handy for keeping Ninetales and Dugtrio healthy. Allow Wish.

So to start the initial gambit:

Disallow all stat-boosting moves. Malaconda does not need them and all they do is increase its general versatility rather than aiding it in its niche. Even though Growth would encourage sun Malaconda's role is not as a sweeper, it is as support.

Clear Smog and Haze don't fit the stat booster description, so those should be allowed.

Status Moves:
Allow Aromatherapy/Heal Bell
Allow Glare/Stun Spore
Disallow Will-O-Wisp
Disallow Sleep Moves and Yawn

I believe this combination will give Malaconda the tools it needs to avoid being setup bait without being so generically useful that it benefits all teams. LumRest would make an excellent cleric and might even give Leaf Guard Pokemon the ability to actually benefit from it.

Field Effects:
Allow Sunny Day, Disallow Rain Dance

The power of concept compels you!

Recovery:
Allow all Sun-Based Healing moves, Disallow other healing moves.

The power of concept compels you!

Considerations

Stat-modifying moves

For the same reasons, I agree with Deck Knight. Disallow, except for Clear Smog and Haze. If anything, Amnesia, just because it helps Malaconda tank Draco Meteors better, but even that is a little ehh.

Status moves

Allow Aromatherapy and Heal Bell as it enhances Malaconda's ability to provide team support. Confuse Ray and Teeter Dance... it's confusion. Allow or disallow, I really don't think it matters. Allow Glare to deter stat-boosters and ruin Poison Heal Gliscor and Breloom (assuming they don't switch in and activate their Toxic Orbs first). Disallow sleep-inducing moves. Sleep is a powerful status to inflict and I believe that allowing Malaconda to have the ability to put its two biggest counter (Heatran, Scizor) out of commission like this would go against what we've built up to this point. If anything, only Grasswhistle should be allowed simply because of how inaccurate it is. Disallow Will-o'-Wisp as it helps Malaconda to greatly hinder physical attackers that are supposed to counter/check it.

Move limiters

Block/Mean Look/Spier Web...? I don't believe thses work toward fulfilling the concept and it's not like--going with what I have already said concerning stat-boosting moves (disallow)--Malaconda really has something to gain from trapping an enemy except healing through Leech Seed, considering it's allowed, so... allow or disallow, I'm fine with it. Allow Encore, as trapping set-up Pokemon potentially makes way for some of Sun's set-up Pokemon (Venusaur, Volcarona, etc.) the have a chance to execute their strategy. Allow Disable. Along the same lines as Encore, it could potentially allow set-up Pokemon to do their thing. Taunt is... kind of outclassed by Encore, in my opinion, because of Malaconda's low speed, so I don't see a reason to disallow it. Torment is basically the same as Taunt, in my opinion, although it's better on Malaconda because of its slow speed.

Field-altering moves

Only allow Sunny Day. All the other ones detract from the concept.

Hazard moves

It is paramount that we allow Rapid Spin if this is a Pokemon that is built towards supporting the Sunny Day playstyle. Disallow Stealth Rock as it increases the chance that Malaconda may be used to fight against Sun teams. Allow Spikes and Toxic Spikes because Malaconda has spikes, therefore spikes.

Recovery moves

Allow only Sunlight-dependent instant recovery as it discourages Malaconda's use in Rain and makes it a more appealing choice to use in sunlight. Allow Leech Seed because SubSeed can help win a stall match. Allow Rest for Harvest usage, and allow Wish just for generally good support, considering Malaconda's base 115 HP and doesn't risk use on Rain teams because of Vaporeon.

Other moves

-Baton Pass. Since we've already allowed U-turn, I think there's really no reason to disallow Baton Pass. It allows movepool makers to choose whether or not to include U-turn in their movepools. Baton Pass also has the added benefit of transferring any stat boosts gained form pinch berries if pinch berries are used. Allow.
-Destiny Bond. Malaconda is slow and Destiny Bond really does nothing to move the concept forward. Disallow.
-Detect/Protect. Helps SubSeed and scouting. Allow.
-Healing Wish. Malaconda has a better team-healing option in Wish and it should strive to be alive as much as necessary, anyway. Disallow.
-Ingrain. Provides additional healing and IngrainPass prevents set-up sweepers from being phazed and ruining their set-up. Allow.
-Knock Off. Hmm... I'm not really sure about this move.
-Screens. I hesitantly say allow because screens add general support that, when combined with some other possible support options, could make Malaconda more appealing for use in Rain teams than on Sun teams... I am very open to swaying on this matter.
-Magic Coat. Could be used to prevent hazards like from being set up. Stealth Rock, specifically. Allow.
-Magnet Rise. Hmm... this is interesting. RisePassing can help boost Fire-type Pokemon by removing their Ground weakness momentarily (although most Pokemon that carry Earthquake--which is really the move I'm thinking about--also carry either Rock Slide or Stone Edge). Allow?
-Memento. Ehh. Disallow.
-Perish Song. Kind of a double-edged sword, as it can be used against the Pokemon we're trying to help boost, but also allows Malaconda to stop opposing set-up Pokemon in their tracks. Still, if we can avoid risking Malaconda's "improper" use, then we should avoid it at all costs. Disallow.
-Roar/Whirlwind. Phazing is always great on a Pokemon mostly designed for support, but again, do we want to risk its use against the Pokemon we're trying to boost? I'm on the fence about this.
-Trick/Switcheroo. Along the same lines as the two above, but I believe these actually can help the concept more than hinder it as opposed to the other two. Allow.

Whew... that took forever... anyways, I think when considering support options we should keep in mind that supporting moves are a lot less type-oriented, meaning that it's easier to make a Pokemon that is more of a generic support Pokemon rather than a Sun support Pokemon. If nothing else, a Rain team may end up using Malaconda for its generic support simply because it provides good generic support. ...I'm not sure I got my point across, but...

Tired, so I'll make this quick

I agree with RavensNation on pretty much everything. I'd have to say allow Knock Off, as it's a great utility move and some Sun or all-weather counters are reliant on items (Custap Skarm, non-Balloon Heatran as U-Turn breaks the Balloon anyway, etc.), though its not like I'd be heartbroken if it's disallowed.

Allow Clear Smog, Haze, Amnesia and Stockpile, disallow all others is what I'm going with stat-wise. Amnesia helps us tank Dracos and works well with Baton Pass, though there are better users in dedicated ChainPass teams. Stockpile wouldn't be gamebreaking, as it would only allow you to go to +3, and, as shown below, even +3 doesn't do much against our threats:
Assuming 32 HP EVs (and probaby 252+ SpDef and the rest into Attack), +3 still doesn't do much, if you do get a chance to get it up there. It's not like Stockpile will break us, but it'll have a niche use in dealing with some of our threats, something a Sun team needs.

Disallow all instant recovery other than Sun-based moves is really self-explanitory, helping the concept. I also see no reason to go against allow Rest, and allowing Leech Seed would be a good choice- again, not gamebreaking, but useful for hazard sets; which brings me to my next point.

Allow Rapid Spin. Duh. Sun needs it, let's give Sun it. Allowing Stealth Rocks would also be nice, as, with Leech Seed and Synthesis/whatever, we could successfully have a defensive hazard setter and spinner other than Forretress and dare I say Donphan for Sun teams. Undecided on whether or not to allow Spikes and Toxic Spikes, but I'm leaning towards disallowing Spikes and TSpikes; subject to change, but I don't see why that would be benifitial to Sun; if you want a devoted hazard setter, use Forre. Simple as that. Or Donphan, I guess. Maybe.

Disallow Reflect and Light Screen. Really, though CAP 5 is a gluemon for Sun with a supportive role (Rapid Spin), it isn't purely a support mon. I see no reason why Reflect and Light Screen are benefitial to Sun, other than supporting Venusaur. Like Spikes and TSpikes, however, I may change my mind.

Allow Baton Pass. We have U-Turn, and I made many points in favour of BPass earlier. Allow Magnet Rise as, though it may not seem good at first glance, passing a Ground immunity would be very benifitial to Sun teams, but Rain teams don't really need one on the other hand, except for Tentacruel maybe, who loses his ability to absorb Toxic Spikes in that case.

...Wow, that was a lot longer than I thought it'd be. Anyway, that's my opening thoughts so far. On Wish, I'm kind of undecided; I'll get back to you on that, but I'm more leaning towards disallow Wish at the moment, but just barely.

Vann Accessible said:

Switcheroo / Trick: Well, it encourages a Choice Band set, which everyone seems dead set againstBut most of Malaconda’s switch-ins are physical attackers anyway. So you give a Breloom a Choice Band. That would work against you. I’m on the fence. A compelling argument might sway me, but for now I say Disallow Switcheroo / Trick.

Click to expand...

I think the inclusion of Trick/Switcheroo would have a niche benefit for Malaconda. I have argued before that Trick on the likes of Latios is going to be a significant threat for Malaconda. Say your opponent switches in a Choice Latios on your Ninetales. You switch out to Malaconda (he's your Lati@s counter after all), but your opponent uses Trick in anticipation of the switch. Bye Bye Berry! Having Trick/Switcheroo at least allows you to get rid of the Choice item onto something else and hopefully get Leftovers in the process. I don't expect this strategy to see a lot of use, but I think it is sufficiently pro-concept to see the moves allowed.

As a moderator, I want to remind everyone to please read the rules. This is a competitive discussion, so flavor arguments have no place here. Any little bit of flavor that you sneak into your post could result in the entire post being deleted. We worry first and foremost about how our Pokemon performs competitively before we even think about flavor.

If you have any questions on exactly what this entails, shoot me a PM. I merely wanted to post this as a final warning so this conversation can be as effective and efficient as possible.

Disallow Leech Seed

Leech Seed is fricking OP on this CAP if it gets a healing move along side it. Assuming it gets (say) LumRest, it can Leech Seed a switch, tank a hit, and spam Rest all day every day, till said mon dies. Please do, feel free to check out the list of calculations birkal and I provided, for instance, with Leech Seed and Lum Rest, CAP 5 beats SDef Heatran 1v1 under sunlight. Considering that Heatran gets thrown around a bit as the 'counter to CAP 5" id argue that giving it Leech Seed makes it very difficult for Heatran to win :(

Okay, first of all I'd really like to see all those boosting moves disallowed, especially Coil: with Coil, Malaconda becomes incredibly threatening in any weather, and can even think about Baton Passing things away, which is not what we intended to do.

I support Baton Pass to be allowed: at this point it's basically an inferior U-Turn that does not pop Balloons (since there's no boost to be passed, and Pursuit is not an issue; someone could come up with weird sets that abuse pinch berries and pass those boosts, but I don't think that concern is too big). Remember that allowing this kind of moves we're merely giving the submitters the possibility to use them, not forcing them to do so. If they can use U-Turn there's close to no reason to not let them use Baton Pass.

Sunny Day should be allowed, any other weather inducing move should be disallowed. This is self-explanatory if you read the concept at least once...

Allow Rapid Spin. While the main focus of the project was to counter Lati@s while being able to badly injure Water types, it was stated lots of times that Malaconda should help Sun to free up team slots, and giving it Rapid Spin is basically the only way to achieve it, in my eyes.

I don't have a definite opinion on giving it Stealth Rock or some other kind of hazards; I'm strongly leaning towards disallowing those, but I can't come up with any rational reasoning to back this feeling up (maybe because I'm too sleepy at the moment lol). I'll read carefully any opinion on this point.

On the status move department, allow Glare: it is an awesome way to cripple some things that we have no way to hurt without being as dangerous as Ice Fang (Scizor doesn't care, Lum Dragonite or Lum Anything doesn't care, Heatran cares relatively, etc...). Also, disallow Will-O-Wisp. Does nothing for the concept except being able to cripple Steel types not named Heatran, something that Toxic can't do, and also ruin Toxicroak and Breloom's life. On sleep moves, they're kinda debatable as long as they have low accuracy (I'd like to see Spore disallowed, but again, I can't come up with strong reasonings on this). I also see no reason to not allow Leech Seed, that can see nice uses on Substitute sets (like Exeggutor does, I guess).

FOr those recovery moves, the only two things I'm fully convinced are to allow Rest and disallow Recover / Roost / Slack Off / similar. The reasons are quite obvious. On the other Sun based recovery moves, I'm kinda skeptical: I fear a 252 HP / 252+ Def Malaconda in Sun with Sitrus / Enigma + Moonlight will be EXTREMELY hard to take down (maybe coupled with Refresh, which I'm not opposed to allow). Again, this is just a feeling so I'm uncertain here.

That's everything for now.

EDIT: I didn't feel making another post since it's a small modification, but after reading some arguments I think I underestimated the usefulness of Leech Seed. I'm now leaning towards not allowing it, although I don't see it as an extreme danger (however, it's also not really necessary for our concept, so why allowing something potentially harmful?). Sorry for my complete change of ideas, but that's why these discussion threads exist in the first place, right?

Apologies for the flavor. Let me try again without it.


Endure: Here’s one that wasn’t mentioned before. Malaconda could use Endure to great effect in conjunction either Custap Berry or Liechi Berry and Harvest, making for some very amusing late game cleaning flavor sets. By clinging to life with Endure, while under 25% HP and Custap Berry, any of Malaconda’s subsequent moves would have increased priority! With a Liechi Berry, Malaconda’s attack will be boosted a stage each remaining turn it manages to stay alive, which in conjuction with priority moves like Sucker Punch and/or Extremespeed could be frustrating to kill as well.
Assuming you only had 1 HP left. Either of these sets would easily be foiled by a multitude of things like sand/hail, faster priority, Pranksters, substitutes or status. Allow Endure.
____________________________________________________________

Stat-altering moves:
Boosting moves work against our concept of a defensive pivot. I think the most tempting ones are Coil and Growth. Coil would inevitably lead to a set consisting of Harvest, Lum Berry, Rest, Coil, Power Whip and Sucker Punch and would be more than viable in the rain; without a fire weakness, Malaconda would become very difficult to take down after a single boost. Growth, while despite being tied to sun, leads to attacking sets, and with priority moves bypassing its low speed, Growth Malaconda could be very lethal as well. Furthermore, if Baton Pass is allowed, this would also make Malaconda a very bulky boost passer, which I don’t think we want either. Furthermore, I am against anything that let's Malaconda boost it's defense, like Iron Defense or Stockpile, as it could be become broken with a boosted defense stat. Unless we see some very compelling arugments otherwise, I say Disallow Stat-altering moves.
Clear Smog / Haze: I feel these are unnecessary, as we gave him Dragon Tail, and these moves are inferior to good ole fashioned phasing moves. But I don’t see why he couldn’t have them. I’m indifferent to these.

Status moves:
Aromatherapy / Heal Bell / Refresh: Hells yeah. Malaconda would make a damn good cleric, not unlike Blissey or Celebi. With the great synergy of Intimidate Gyarados/Tentacruel to absorb fire, fighting and bug attacks, as well as Rest on either of them, you could potentially make one awesome defensive core. Furthermore, the possibility of Rest Ninetales definitely lessens its debilitating weakness to stealth rock considerably. Allow cleric moves.


Confuse Ray / Teeter Dance: Sure. Why not? Parafusion is fun. Allow confusion moves.
Glare: I decided early on, Glare on Malaconda was going to be my baby.
Glare is the best paralysis move in the game, and probably the best move Malaconda could have in terms of total team support, besides Rapid Spin. This move would give Malaconda a great niche at stunning the ground types and electric Volt Absorbers immune to Thunder Wave it is supposed to counter, and ease its slow speed stat considerably. Paralyzing Jolteon and Landorous is something not many mons can do. It would also synergize well with Dragon Tail and other phasing moves in a parashuffle set. Furthermore, most stunners fear Xatu and Espeon hopping in and bouncing back its paralysis, but not Malaconda. With Lum Berry, it’d be immune to its own rebounded status, and with access to dark STABs, could easily kill the Magic Bouncers. It also would really inhibit set up sweepers setting up in front of it, unless you happen to be the almighty Swords Dance Scizor, Conkedurr, Lum variants of Volcorona or Dragonite, or more commonly than all of these put together, a fast substitute user.
Glare also doesn’t really damage Malaconda’s tired and true counters that badly. Assuming its orb is already active, Toxic Heal Breloom is immune to Glare. Techniloom doesn’t really care about stunning since it has Mach Punch, and the same is true with Scizor, who is already slow, and often relies on Bullet Punch for quick kills. Conkledurr would actually love to be stunned, boosting its attack power with guts. Glare could potentially screw over a lot of fire types however, like Infernape and Scarftran. Allow Glare.
Lovely Kiss / Sleep Powder / Spore/Yawn: One thing Rain and Sand teams have always had over Sun is that they are more typical to use Parasect, Breloom and Amoongus, the Spore users. Typically, when a Sun team wants to use a grass type, they use something with a sun ability, and thus they need to use the less accurate Sleep Powder, and I think it should stay that way. At first, I thinking with the idea that if Malaconda got Spore, that would free up a move slot on Venusaur to have Earthquake more consistently to get past fire, and would eliminate Dugtrio as a necessity, and I still think that’s a discussion worth having. But my fear is that if Malaconda does get Spore, that basically allows Malaconda to sleep one of its few counters on the switch and bypass them completely. Hypnosis could provide a decent flavor alternative, given its low accuracy. For right now, I don’t support Malaconda getting Spore, as sun teams are over saturated with sleep moves already, but we should definitely discuss the merit/dangers of sleeping moves on Malaconda. Disallow sleep moves.

Will-O-Wisp:
No. Malaconda’s low physical defense its Achilles heel. Will-O-Wisp makes it waaay to hard to kill. Will-O-Wisping switch ins like Breloom and Scizor and Toxicroak makes them non-switch ins. Finally, Ninetales often runs Will-O-Wisp anyway. It’s redundant on a sun team. Disallow Will-O-Wisp.

Move limiters:
Block / Mean Look / Spider Web: Don’t see why these help, unless Baton Passing Mean Look comes back in Gen 6. Indifferent.
Encore: I’m indifferent. Deter setup? There are plenty of better moves including phasing and Glare.
Taunt: He’s kinda slow to make good use of it. I’m indifferent.

Disable/Torment:
Sub Disable Gengar and Tormentran Malaconda is not, and never will be. The beauty of Tormentran is his few weaknesses. Malaconda has many more. Breloom, Volcorona, Ice Punch Toxicroak and Superpower Scizor all continue to hit Malaconda for supereffective damage even when Tormented. Torment would be more of an annoyance than really screwing its counters. Disallow Disable/Torment.

Field effects:
Gravity: Could be interesting in conjunction with Dugtrio. Maybe. I’m indifferent
Rain Dance: No Rain synergy. Disallow Rain Dance.
Sunny Day: Definitely. Allows him to back up Ninetales with weather support. Allow Sunny Day.
Trick Room: Eh, I think Xatu or Espeon or Chandelure would be better at setting up Trick Room for sun.

Hazards:
Rapid Spin: A given. There’s no better move for sun support than Rapid Spin, as Ninetales is weak to it. Malaconda will be very difficult to spin block with ghost types, given its STAB dark type moves. Personally I think Malaconda will still be inferior to Espeon and Xatu in terms of total hazard defense, since stopping to use Rapid Spin wastes valuable momentum. Still. Allow Rapid Spin.
Spikes/Toxic Spikes: Who’s got time for these on a sun team? Don’t care.
Stealth Rock: I guess the only consistent Stealth Rockers on sun teams are Heatran and Dugtrio. Malaconda having it could be useful. Allow Stealth Rock.

Other:
Baton Pass: Malaconda’s a pivot poke, so Baton Pass would go great on him and give him all sorts of versatility supporting his team. Being used in conjuction with other moves, Malaconda could use Glare on a switch in (who does not have priority or U-Turn), and then outspeed its opponent and use substitute. In conjuction with Sitrus berry, you could actually continue to use Substitute indefinitely until your opponent is stunned! This would make Malaconda a Sub Passer to rival Vaporeon and Gliscor. Easy Taunt bait though. Allow Baton Pass.

Destiny Bond: Custap Berry suicide Malaconda could be a thing, I guess. Allow Destiny Bond.
Detect / Protect: Well duh. Who doesn’t get Protect? Subseed needs it. Allow Detect/Protect.
Healing Wish
Ingrain: I’d like to see Ingrain as an option. Ingrain Pass Smeargle is a nice niche Malaconda could duplicate, becoming a link in Baton Pass chains. Allow Ingrain.
Knock Off: This is an underrated move. Nothing is sweeter than knocking away Chansey or Porygon 2’s Evolite. Allow Knock Off.
Light Screen/ Reflect: Eh, Xatu and Espeon both do these better for sun. Disallow screens.
Magic Coat: Sure. Rebound dem rocks and Taunt. Allow Magic Coat.
Magnet Rise: Eh, I guess you could pass it to fire types. I don’t feel overly passionate about it though.
Memento: Helps set up sweepers. Allow Memento.
Perish Song / Roar / Whirlwind: I’d be down for one of these. I dislike Dragon Tail. Things behind subs don’t care about DT, especially steel types. Allow traditional phasing moves.
Switcheroo / Trick: Well, it encourages a Choice Band set, which everyone seems dead set against but most of Malaconda’s switch-ins are physical attackers anyway. So you give a Breloom a Choice Band. That would work against you. I’m on the fence. A compelling argument might sway me, but for now I say Disallow Switcheroo / Trick.

Volt Switch: Vastly inferior to U-Turn, which we decided would be allowed. Disallow Volt Switch.

Recovery:
Heal Order / Milk Drink / Recover / Roost / Slack Off / Softboiled/ Pain Split: No to nonweather reliant heal moves. It makes Malaconda viable in rain. Dissallow non-sun dependent heal moves.
Leech Seed: On second though, no. No to outstalling Heatran. Disallow Leech Seed.
Moonlight / Morning Sun / Synthesis: Heals massive damage in the sun, and without the need of a Lum Berry, but is also dependant on sun for decent healing. Gives Malaconda an option outside of Lum+Rest while still tying him to sun. Allow sun dependent heal moves.
Rest: Sun’s answer to Hydration Rest Vaporeon = Harvest+Lum+Rest. Allow Rest.
Wish: I’m torn here. I used to think Wish would be great on Malaconda. But his grass typing really synergizes to Politoed too. And with Wish+Protect acting as a decent form of self-healing, what’s to stop him from becoming a rain wish passer too? True, rain teams still have Vaporeon with a bigger HP stat for Wish passing, but Nakaconda has so much better defense synergy with Politoed than Vaporeon. Malaconda resists both of Politoed's weaknesses while Vaporeon shares both those weaknesses.
I’d rather have the combination of Rest Ninetales with Heal Bell on Malaconda than Wish. You could still opt to do Rest Politoed, but at least it comes at the cost of a moveslot on the frog. Besides, rain can already do that with Aromatherapy Celebi or Heal Bell Vaporeon. Disallow Wish.

Just a quick post because I'm on my phone, but here are my thoughts on hazards:

Stealth Rock should be disallowed. It does too much damage to some of the important things we want to counter 'conda. Yes, I know that teams will run it any way, but I think forcing a teammate to set the rocks up could help to keep 'conda balanced.

Spikes should be allowed. This is mainly because if we want to free teams lots for Sun, it may help if 'condo can set some kind of hazard. Spikes is nicely balanced and does consistent damage to rain and sand teams that can be easily packed with SR resists.

I'm really split on Toxic Spikes. On the one hand, a lot of 'conda's counters don't care about it, and it could be a neat way to encourage the use of Poison-types. On the other hand, Fire-type counters that aren't Heatran do care about TS, and I think it's important that we make them viable counters to help encourage the use of sun. Also, I suspect that people won't use poison-types to counter TS, but rather their own Lum 'conda, assuming Rapid Spin is allowed. I'm leaning toward disallowing TS right now, but I've already changed my mind a couple of times in the last few minutes. Question for someone good at this game: would TS be outclassed by Spikes if both were allowed?

Maybe I'll add my thoughts on other moves later, but I really like where this discussion is going so far.

Edit: not such a quick post after all

Edit 2: Maybe this stage has changed more than I realised, but I'm puzzled by the people arguing to disallow moves that aren't useful to this CAP. What reason is there not to allow something we think it won't use anyway?

Recovery moves that distract people from Harvest should not be allowed, since it takes away the shine of being able to recover from pinch berries. Either that, or it will be an unbreakable wall with unlimited recovery. Thus, all recovery moves that have nothing to do with Harvest should be banned. This includes Wish and Synthesis, but not Rest because LumRest with Harvest is very valid.

In a similar vein, ban Leech Seed.

Volt Switch is stupid because it is outclassed by U-Turn and does even more pitiful damage to Latias. Ban Volt Switch.

Okay, let's go.


Like everyone said before, we should disallow any stat-boosting moves, because are really unnecessary for a niche pokemon designed for a supporting and tanking role. Moreover, a Malaconda with boosted defenses (and maybe with Ingrain) would be really really too hard to take down.
However, we should allow Clear Smog/Haze, because they can really helpful against some boosting-threats like Thundurus-T and Gyarados, pokes that Malaconda should threaten; furthermore, but maybe i'm delirious, I think these moves can help so much more than phazing (Roar/Whirlwind) moves, simply because we can't control the effect provided by these moves while haze paired with u-turn/baton pass on a predicted switch can really help to gain momentum. So, we should disallow Roar/Whirlwind.

On Perish Song i'm really undecided, but I strongly disapprove the three-turns-chance this move give to the opponent: a bad predicted Malaconda's U-turn or a well predicted switch-in of the opponent can really break the momentum...maybe i'm too tragic but i'm inclined to disallow Perish Song.

I'll post other impressions later.

ginganinja said:

Disallow Leech Seed

Leech Seed is fricking OP on this CAP if it gets a healing move along side it. Assuming it gets (say) LumRest, it can Leech Seed a switch, tank a hit, and spam Rest all day every day, till said mon dies. Please do, feel free to check out the list of calculations birkal and I provided, for instance, with Leech Seed and Lum Rest, CAP 5 beats SDef Heatran 1v1 under sunlight. Considering that Heatran gets thrown around a bit as the 'counter to CAP 5" id argue that giving it Leech Seed makes it very difficult for Heatran to win :(

Click to expand...

This and this alone proves that Leech Seed would be grossly overpowered on CAP 5, disallow Leech Seed.

Seeing how I might not have time to stay here for the entire discussion, here's my best analysis of Non-Attacking moves we could give Malaconda. It's all my opinion, but I see in the comments above it's rather in line with what others have been saying, so perhaps I am doing something right.

On Volt Switch:

On the Recovery options:

On the stat-altering moves:

On Status moves:

On Move limiters:

On Field effects:

On Hazards:

On Baton Pass and Ingrain:

On Detect / Protect:

On Destiny Bond, Healing Wish and Memento:

On Knock Off:

On Light Screen and Reflect:

On Magic Coat, Magnet Rise and Perish Song:

On Roar / Whirlwind:

On Switcheroo / Trick:


.... and it seems that's all. Hope I didn't bore you guys too much.

Stat Alteration
First off, no speed boosting moves; if Malaconda is going to have any stat alteration, it is still too slow too sweep, and we are going to keep it that way. Now that that is out of the way, there are some moves I'd like to highlight here:
Belly Drum: Because of the IVs, Belly Drum puts Malaconda 1 point under half, triggering sitrus berry, which will promptly gring it back up to 75%, with maxed out attack. I'm not sure wether or not to allow this, but i wanted to point this out anyone who hasnt noticed it or cared to find it.
Coil: After a Coil boost, Malaconda can start lashing out with Power Whip with a respectable attack and accuracy. Defense isn't so much an issue until two Coil boosts, at which point Malaconda has 120 defense, at which point we can start wondering if this move is too powerful. Disallowing Coil.
Growth/Swords Dance: In this form with a Sitrus berry, Malaconda would be described as a bulky Swords Dance sweeper, who would then proceed to sweep, patching up its subpar speed with Sitrus. As there are too powerful and diverting, These two moves are disallowed.

Status Moves:
Sleep moves are a little controversial, so I'll skip them for now.
Aromatherapy: Hypnosis and Toxic are annoying for Sun Teams (or any team for that matter), and Aromatherapy allows Malaconda to fix that, at the cost of a moveslot and turn. Allowing Aromatherapy.
Glare: With Glare, Malaconda can reliably paralyze anything without magic bounce, Including ground types, which can give its teammate, Heatran an edge in battle. Allowing Glare
Will-O-Wisp: Since Malaconda is designated as weak to physical attacks, Will-O-Wisp does nothing for our design. Disallowing Will-O-Wisp.

Move Limiters
Both Taunt and Torment are moves that allow Malaconda to shut down opposing Support, Assuming they don't get behind a substitute first. Also, with Torment, Protect, Sitrus, and Substitute, we theoretically have another TormenTran! Allowing both Taunt and Torment.

Field Effect Moves
For the benifit of our concept, all but Sunny Day are disallowed.

Hazards
All Setting moves are disallowed, due to their lack of use against Rain or Sand teams. On the other hand, Rapid Spin provides sun with a reliable spinner, so I'm leaning towards allowing Rapid Spin.

Other
Protect: Is an absolute must, as almost every pokemon in existence, with the exception of four learn protect.
Screens: I'm really not sure about these, as Malaconda itself does not need them, but the rest of its team might. At this point, I would only allow Light Screen.
Roar: Malaconda could use this in phasing, but the only thing roar has over Dragon Tail is the ability to bypass substitutes. That said, Roar is allowed.
Switcheroo: Because of Malaconda's abilities, I don't see any competitive situation where this would be used.

Volt Switch: Capefeather said it himself, Volt Switch won't make it, and I see no reason for it to.

Leech Seed

ginganinja said:

Disallow Leech Seed

Leech Seed is fricking OP on this CAP if it gets a healing move along side it. Assuming it gets (say) LumRest, it can Leech Seed a switch, tank a hit, and spam Rest all day every day, till said mon dies. Please do, feel free to check out the list of calculations birkal and I provided, for instance, with Leech Seed and Lum Rest, CAP 5 beats SDef Heatran 1v1 under sunlight. Considering that Heatran gets thrown around a bit as the 'counter to CAP 5" id argue that giving it Leech Seed makes it very difficult for Heatran to win :(

Click to expand...

Just wondering, is there any reason that you specified SDef Heatran, and not just Heatran in general?

Synthesis: Synthesis is a wonderful Recovery that lets us Recover 2/3rds of our hp in sun. That said, Rain will dampen it to 1/4th, keeping it from being too powerful. Allowing Synthesis.

Rest: In almost all stages since ability discussions, we have always brought up the subject of LumRest, so by all means, Rest should be allowed.

Wish: With Wish and a respectable HP stat, Malaconda can keep its sun abusing teammates alive, including but not limited to Ninetails, who will appreciate the survivability. Allowing Wish.

Ok time for some "Needs Discussion"

Volt Switch - Allow. U-turn has been allowed. Volt Switch should be as an alternative for those who dislike U-turn. Baton Pass should be Allowed too as an even weaker option that fails to pop balloons.

Recovery:
Heal Order / Milk Drink / Recover / Roost / Slack Off / Softboiled
Leech Seed
Moonlight / Morning Sun / Synthesis
Pain Split
Rest
Wish

Rest and Pain Split can definitely both be allowed.

Leech Seed for reasons mentioned above should be disallowed.

Reliable 1-turn recovery should not be allowed. So disallow Heal Order / Milk Drink / Recover / Roost / Slack Off / Softboiled.

Unfortunately, I think that group includes the sun-dependent recovery too. While not normally considered reliable, I think it might be on Malaconda as neither Tyranitar/Hippowdon nor Politoed can come in to ruin Malaconda's day. So disallow Moonlight / Morning Sun / Synthesis.

That just leaves Wish... which I'm not quite sure what to do with. I'm leaning towards disallow and leaving only Rest and Pain Split as healing options, but I haven't heard enough either way to convince me.

First off people, please do not post on every single non-attacking move in a single post. capefeather put things in the Needs Discussion category for a reason, and ignoring it completely makes the thread cluttered and makes it hard to read and make decisions based on.

Secondly, I know Birkal already posted on flavor reasoning, but I want to just expand a bit by saying that our type is not a reason for allowing a move unless our type has something to do with how the move will actually function. Already in this thread, along with many times on IRC, posts, either directly or implied, have said that we should have something like Leech Seed for little more reason than that we are a Grass type. I just want to make sure this is out there so that people know that reasoning such as that is simply not acceptable. Leech Seed doesn't function differently because we are a Grass type, so the fact that we are is completely irrelevant. All moves should be disallowed until argued otherwise for competitive reasons. Being associated with a type does not reverse this to allowed unless proved otherwise. For this or any other move for which type does not have an important effect, if you find that you could not use the exact same argument were we (all else equal) a pure dark type, a pure grass type, a fire/ice type, or whatever, you need to rethink that argument before you post it. This is obviously true of any non-type element too, especially flavor ones. It is not always obvious, even to yourself, but, for example, if you feel you would not be defending Glare if we were not a snake, then don't defend it at all.

With that said, I just want to start off my own opinions by throwing my support with ginganinja and the disallow Leech Seed camp. Honestly, Leech Seed does about nothing we need, and threatens to beat back a ton of pokemon that we have no business beating. If something switches in on a Leech Seed and can't OHKO, it loses. Doesn't matter what it is. It is completely unrelated to the concept, and doesn't deserves a spot here at all.

Sun Recovery moves on the other hand do a great job of tying us to our weather while providing decent healing for sets that choose not to run LumRest. I think allowing other kinds of sets to heal is important, but we should not be allowing them to heal outside of sun any better than LumRest Harvest already does, meaning that I think Wish and normal recovery moves should not be allowed.

Oh, and in case it wasn't clear, Rest should be allowed. I am not a fan of allowing things simply because people assumed we would have it, but so much of what we do is based around our ability to utilize this move that I feel disallowing it would do way too much harm to the project.

Last of the healing moves is Pain Split, and honestly, I don't care about it. It should definitely be allowed though. It is unrelaible, not a good way of doing damage, and strictly inferior to other healing moves. There is really no reason not to allow it, assuming any of the other healing moves are also allowed.

Finally, to touch on Volt Switch, the move is a strictly inferior version of U-Turn. We allowed the former, so we have absolutely no reason not to allow the latter. The only argument I have seen so far against it, that it is irrelevant and unnecessary now that we have U-Turn, are things that should apply to movepool submissions, not allowed moves.

The reason Baton Pass is going to be considered separate from U-turn and Volt Switch is its potential to do its actual intended purpose: pass boosts. So I find it kind of pointless to talk about it by itself, before we're even really getting into stat boosters.

People who want to post in support of Leech Seed should read ginganinja's post because it's potentially a large factor in Malaconda's ability to get past arbitrary checks and counters!

Inre jas on Leech Seed flavor:

It's not even a requirement on all Grass types. Leafeon, Rotom-C, Virizion, Cradily, and Wormadam-G cannot learn Leech Seed.

And before you say, "Oh but those are 'unique' grass types..." neither can Bellsprout's or Sewaddle's evolutionary lines.

Chill it with the "it's required" bullcrap.

On Volt Switch: This is, in my opinion, an inferior U-turn - it works of Malaconda's weaker attacking side (not that Malaconda should be dealing any decent damage with VoltTurn), and does not work against Ground-types. If Malaconda is to be a defensive pivot that uses self-switch moves to maintain momentum on sun teams, then allowing U-turn would mean that Volt Switch should be allowed. That two self-switching move is pretty much outclassed by U-turn, so there's no harm in allowing it, since it allows for variation come movepool submissions, yet helps to achieve the role we intend Malaconda to play.

On recovery moves:
Supporting ginganinja and jas about disallowing Leech Seed - even if that is Malaconda's only recovery move, it does nothing but turns it into a generic good special wall, and does nothing to help our concept.

Without Rest, Lum Harvest is less of an aid to Malaconda, and becomes an inferior option to Sitrus. It would've deter the concept as Malaconda loses one of its 2 primary tactics to aid sun, so I'm leaning towards allowing Rest. I'm also in agreement with jas about Sun-dependent recovery moves - allowing Morning Sun, Synthesis or Moonlight intrinsically encourages usage of Malaconda in Sun teams, which would aid us in studying the concept. But if the above 2 categories of recovery moves are allowed, I'd say disallow non-Sun-dependent recovery moves, which includes Wish, Recover, Roost, etc.

Also, people often read between the lines too much - that a move is Allowed means that move must, and will be, in Malaconda's movepool. That category is Required, actually, not Allowed.

Stat-Altering Moves-Disallow all except Clear Smog, Haze, and Stockpile (Maybe?) mostly because the others simply make Malaconda too much of a sweeper.

Status Moves- Disallow most of them. The only moves even close to being considered are probably Glare and Mean Look, because the other moves either can't be put to good use by Malaconda, or they are simply bad moves for him to use.

Move Limiting Moves- Allow Mean Look and maybe consider Taunt, but the other moves drive Malaconda away from its goals as CAP5.

Field Effect Moves- Only consider putting Sunny Day on Malaconda's moveset.

Hazards- I'm pending on Rapid Spin, but the other hazard moves cannot be properly utilized by our snake friend.

Recovery Moves- Oh boy, here come the recovery moves. Anyways, the recovery moves, in my opinion, really shouldn't be considered except for Rest ( that's why Harvest is there in the first place), Leech Seed ( in my opinion, a most must-have move for grass-types and has reliable recovery), and Wish, due to the decent amount of hp passed on, which is, of course inferior to Blissey, but it is better than most pokemon with wish.

And finally, Other Move- Disallow all except for baton pass (maybe?) and dual screens. The one reason why I'm mentioning dual screens is not because of Reflect, but because of Light Screen, which raises Malaconda's already high special defense, and helps it tank even more Draco Meteors from the Latis.