Starmie (Defensive Rapid Spin) [QC 3/3]

[Princess Bri]

Starmie

I got dat superstar swagger.

[SET]
name: Defensive Rapid Spin
move 1: Scald
move 2: Psychic / Ice Beam
move 3: Rapid Spin
move 4: Recover
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 20 Def / 12 SpA / 224 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

• Unlike offensive varients of Starmie, this set can utilized Scald to weaken common checks such as Ferrothorn.
• The HP investment allows Starmie to switch in to many Stealth Rock'rs more easily such as Heatran and Donphan, and it allows it to switch-in to Terrakion more safely.
• Recover allows Starmie to spin repeatedly and is a valuable asset most spinners cannot boast. With this it can PP Stall Blissey.
• Thunderbolt allows you to hit weakened Jellicent along with the Tornado-Bro's and is the ideal coverage move.
• Thunder Wave surprises many sweepers trying to set-up on this defensively-inclined starfish (Salamence, Dragonite, Terrakion in Sand)
• Plays a lot differently due to the bulk and Recover.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• EV's allow it to outspeed Base 111 Pokemon (Tornadus), never be OHKO'd by Band Terrakion's Stone Edge, and to always OHKO Gengar after Stealth Rock with Psychic.
• Ice Beam can be used insteaad of Thunderbolt if you want to hit Dragons.
• Scizor can U-Turn and Pursuit and unless you get luck w/ Scald, Starmie is dead meat, so a Scizor counter is wanted as a teammate (Magnezone, Skarmory..)
• Can't spin on Jellicent, but then again, standard Starmie can't spin either since many are running Special Defense EV's. Band/Scarf Tar is nice for this.
• Spins so reliable Dragonite and Volcarona are good teammates.
• Toxic can be used to stall out Jellicent
• Pro set is prooo.

[NatGeo]

please put timid over naive, your only physical attack is rapid spin for crying out loud. Otherwise from that this set is pretty solid, maybe mention LO + recover in AC?

[Princess Bri]

Originally Posted by Fat NatGeo

please put timid over naive, your only physical attack is rapid spin for crying out loud. Otherwise from that this set is pretty solid, maybe mention LO + recover in AC?

It was a typo. I fixed it before you posted. And I guess... I don't see the value of LO since it has little SpA investment though.

[DDRMaster]

Originally Posted by Fat Princess Bri

Recover allows Starmie to spin repeatedly and is a valuable asset most spinners cannot boast. With this it can PP Stall Blissey.

I don't think you should include this. Most Blissey run Toxic, which will kill you faster than your Scald's Burns kill her and you won't be able to PP stall her if you get hit by it.

[Princess Bri]

Originally Posted by Fat DDRMaster

I don't think you should include this. Most Blissey run Toxic, which will kill you faster than your Scald's Burns kill her and you won't be able to PP stall her if you get hit by it.

Switch out.. Rinse, repeat..

[Pocket]

Starmie had a revamp approximately 2 months ago, and we pretty much left the bulky variant under AC of Starmie's standard set. Granted it's not the same exact EV spread, so a little tweaking of the AC section should be enough, imo. I personally would hate to give up on Starmie's revenge-killing / cleaning / ghost-busting capabilities just for some extra bulk... maybe you can provide some logs / replays to show this set in action.

[undisputed]

i believe that starmie should be max speed regardless of set. it's more important to win speed ties vs. other starmie than have 32 sp atk evs imo

[JellyOs]

Why run this over Standard Starmie with Lefties and Spin/Recover? They don't play terribly differently and you lose an insane amount of offensive power. What I'm trying to say is what doesn't KO you anymore? I feel like this set just kind of sits there and can't do anything but Burn and hit Gyarados. You lose Starmie's revenging capabilities and offensive pressure, a main reason why people switch out, and can't even hit Gengar for a KO. Gengar is THE most common Ghost and unlike other Starmie sets this can't do a thing against it. I feel like by using this you lose your Spinning capabilities because you can't beat spin blockers. Basically, what does this achieve with the extra bulk, how do you propose to reliably hurt an opponent and not kill your momentum, and how can you beat spin blockers?

[Thundur]

I agree with Undisputed. If Thunderbolt is the main slash, Starmie should be running max speed.

@NatGeo: I don't really think getting off heavy hits is the main focus of this set. Especially if Sand/Hail is up, Starmie will not be around long enough to put it's HP EVs to good use.

[Ojama]

Psyshock/Psychic > TBolt

[X5Dragon]

I agree, OHKO on non scarfed Gengars is priceless, psyshock not so much seeing how is SPA is pathetic and that secondary Psychic stab can do wonders if you encounter terrakion or conk.

[jc104]

Maybe mention Toxic over Thunderbolt in AC. That way you actually can spin against Jellicent, and generally stall stuff out with Recover.

I'd agree that a set like this does have a place. Standard Starmie is not great when you want to spin more than once, while this set sacrifices offensive ability to come in multiple times. I'd say that given the massive power and bulk difference from the standard set, it needs to be separated.

[Princess Bri]

Okay, I'll change that :)

The focus of this set isn't to have an offensive presence, it's being able to spin reliable and have recovery which is dire to teams that need is (especially hail teams).

EDIT: Bump

[JellyOs]

I just want to reinforce my stance: why is it different than
Starmie@Leftovers
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid
-Surf
-Ice Beam
-Rapid Spin
-Recover

I honestly feel that set has a good deal of longevity and has other options outside of spinning. I fully endorse your set if you can prove what it has over mine, whether it be avoiding key KO's or something else.

[Princess Bri]

Originally Posted by Fat JellyOs

I just want to reinforce my stance: why is it different than
Starmie@Leftovers
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid
-Surf
-Ice Beam
-Rapid Spin
-Recover

I honestly feel that set has a good deal of longevity and has other options outside of spinning. I fully endorse your set if you can prove what it has over mine, whether it be avoiding key KO's or something else.

It has a bunch of "other options" definitely, because it has Ice Beam and Surf it does "a lot of other things".

Without the bulk that Starmie cannot even switch into Standard Offensive Heatran with Stealth Rock up.

252 SpAtk Heatran Fire Blast vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Starmie: 47.13% - 55.56%
2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

Here's how it does versus this Starmie set:

252 SpAtk Heatran Fire Blast vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Starmie: 37.96% - 44.75%
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

Standard Starmie cannot even stand to switch-in to that many Forretress's, as Volt Switch 3HKO's them!

80 SpAtk Forretress Volt Switch vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Starmie: 33.72% - 39.85%
3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

Now versus this Starmie:

80 SpAtk Forretress Volt Switch vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Starmie: 27.16% - 32.1%
4-5 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

There are two of the most common hazard setters in OU, which this Starmie handles betters, and let's not forget Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, and others attempting to switch-in and they get pounded with a Scald burn. Your point is absolutely dumb, the set you posted is never used and is a worser version of this, and this Starmie is a set that deserves to be on the site.

Problem?

EDIT: Editted EV spread, is never OHKO'd by Terrakion's (Band) Stone Edge, and it still OHKO's Gengar with Psychic after Stealth Rock.

[JellyOs]

I'm glad you were able to justify your set, I can see it working very well. My point wasnt to insult your set, but see whatit did differently. * applause*

[Princess Bri]

bump 4 qc

[Jimera0]

Yeah I've seen this before a couple times and been surprised and annoyed by scald (I rely on Ttar to remove Starmie with Pursuit, so a Scald burn just totally fucks me over).

What I really like about this set is two things. 1) It surprises and frequently cripples Starmie's usual counters. 2) It can come in and spin much more reliably than its more offensive bretheren. Being some who uses the more offensive versions quite often, I can say that even with Recover Starmie's longevity left much to be desired.

Oh, it also has something over that other water type spinner Tentacruel in that it actually has a recovery move, allowing it to stall things out outside of rain. It's certainly got potential, and while I don't necessarily want to see more of it (because it'll fuck with my current team), I do believe it deserves to be on site.

A couple things though;
1) Why so many speed EVs? Unless you're running Tbolt or Ice beam (which are currently unslashed) Outrunning Tornadus isn't important since you're not going to be killing it anyway. For once, this set ISN'T relying on its speed to beat things, so I want to know if maybe shifting more to Starmie's bulk might be more optimal. This is ESPECIALLY the case if you're running Thunderwave, for obvious reasons.
2) Toxic should definitely be slashed with Thunderwave, as it can allow Starmie to (very amusingly) Stall things to death. Things like Politoed, Jellicent, Vaporeon and others would usually be able to come in for free... only now they find themselves on the losing end. I know this ends up in a tripple slash, but honestly I find all three options equally viable.

[Princess Bri]

Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0

Yeah I've seen this before a couple times and been surprised and annoyed by scald (I rely on Ttar to remove Starmie with Pursuit, so a Scald burn just totally fucks me over).

What I really like about this set is two things. 1) It surprises and frequently cripples Starmie's usual counters. 2) It can come in and spin much more reliably than its more offensive bretheren. Being some who uses the more offensive versions quite often, I can say that even with Recover Starmie's longevity left much to be desired.

Oh, it also has something over that other water type spinner Tentacruel in that it actually has a recovery move, allowing it to stall things out outside of rain. It's certainly got potential, and while I don't necessarily want to see more of it (because it'll fuck with my current team), I do believe it deserves to be on site.

A couple things though;
1) Why so many speed EVs? Unless you're running Tbolt or Ice beam (which are currently unslashed) Outrunning Tornadus isn't important since you're not going to be killing it anyway. For once, this set ISN'T relying on its speed to beat things, so I want to know if maybe shifting more to Starmie's bulk might be more optimal. This is ESPECIALLY the case if you're running Thunderwave, for obvious reasons.
2) Toxic should definitely be slashed with Thunderwave, as it can allow Starmie to (very amusingly) Stall things to death. Things like Politoed, Jellicent, Vaporeon and others would usually be able to come in for free... only now they find themselves on the losing end. I know this ends up in a tripple slash, but honestly I find all three options equally viable.

I see what you mean about Toxic (AC'd atm) and the EV's, however outspeeding Tornadus is actually a valuable asset. Most Tornadus (being in Rain since that's the most common set) won't enjoy a Rain-boosted Scald that 2HKO's and can OHKO after prior damage, though the EV's are up for debate.

[zdrup15]

Ok, I've tested this and talked to SDS about it too and I don't think it deserves to be on-site. I used Starmie as a pivot and I do like the bulk but I had one major problem: Jellicent, the second most common spinblocker completely laughs at it. So that's the main reason why I don't like it because, while it's a better pivot than standard sets, it's a much worse spinner because it can't get past Jellicent. And, if we use Toxic instead of a STAB move, we're missing on important coverage and utility imo.

QC REJECTED 1/3

[Bluewind]

I can personally vouch for this set and say it's very useful. As for other options, Life Orb and Hydro Pump are a nice alternative in case you want some extra kick, especially against these batshit offense teams that autopilot themselves. IIRC you get to OHKO Gengar after SR which is pretty nice. Also Psychic / Ice Beam should be the other, TWave is pretty useless tbh.

[Snunch]

Of course this is a good set. This is pretty much the set you want to use if Starmie is your main Terrakion counter, and scald is such a good move on its own. Yes, it can't beat Jellicent, but a lot of Starmie sets can't, and Jellicent isn't that common anyway.

I don't understand why you'd use Thunder Wave though. Ice Beam can do things like actually hurt Tornadus + dragons and is a much better option imo.

[Princess Bri]

Originally Posted by Fat zdrup15

Ok, I've tested this and talked to SDS about it too and I don't think it deserves to be on-site. I used Starmie as a pivot and I do like the bulk but I had one major problem: Jellicent, the second most common spinblocker completely laughs at it. So that's the main reason why I don't like it because, while it's a better pivot than standard sets, it's a much worse spinner because it can't get past Jellicent. And, if we use Toxic instead of a STAB move, we're missing on important coverage and utility imo.

QC REJECTED 1/3

As seen on Snunch's RMT Jellicent's are running more of a Specially Defensive spread to even get past Starmie. The LO set has horrid survivability, and this set is great for Hail teams and Sand teams needing more of a sturdy spinner. Several Starmie sets can't get past Jellicent. Donphan and Forretress can't beat Jellicent yet they're used. Take a look at Ojama's Sand Semi-Stall RMT, or Aeroemence's recent hail RMT as they both use a bulky Starmie.

[jc104]

Not if Jellicent has Taunt, I believe.

[firecape]

Originally Posted by Fat jc104

Not if Jellicent has Taunt, I believe.

Assuming something along the lines of WoW (24) /Taunt (32) /Scald (24) / Recover (16), with just Rapid Spin (64) alone, Starmie can stall out at least 66% of Jellicent's PP.