-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Breloom (Analysis)
- Thread starter Seven Deadly Sins
- Start date
The Jolly nature is for outrunning all possibly slower Pokemon such as Modest 192 Spe Heatran, and then using Spore to cripple it. Besides, with all the Jolly Scizors going around, I would say this is the primary choice.
there are jolly scizors going around?.... why arent people using adamant? oh well this isnt the right place to talk about scizor so we can leave this here.
and i guess that makes sense also because you can outspeed practically all versions of toed before it ice beams.
I used to utilise a Sigilyph for that express purpose, and also run a Breloom, and in my experience Sigilyph is too conditional a counter. You need to have let Breloom sleep a Pokemon OR be running a Flame Orb/ Psycho Shift set and have the burn activated before switching in, and even then, you can only really counter some standard forms. Sigilyph simply cannot switch into possible Stone Edge swith impunity. The most heavily defensive Sigilyph, the popular Bold Psycho Shift set, gets 2HKOed by Stone Edge, and failing to even outrun Breloom, simply cannot try to PP stall SE with Roost. Other, more offensively orientated Sigilyph, run the risk of being OHKOed upon switching into a Stone Edge. Even Facade affords Breloom the possibility of a 2HKO against all but the most bulky Sigilyph.
Sigilyph can only really take on the less offensive Breloom variants - it simply doesn't have the staying power to switch in to the more offensive variants.
As someone that plays Breloom often, I find Celebi the most threatening counter, followed by Gliscor. Gliscor suffers from needing to activate its Toxic Orb before switching in, and I've been finding LO Seed Bombs becoming increasingly more common with the rise in popularity of Toxic Spikes and the increased usage of Poison Heal Gliscor. It also doesn't really appreciate residual Leech Seed damage. On the other hand, Celebi is immune to Leech Seed, has Natural Cure for Spore, and resists both of Breloom's STAB, allowing it to switch into any move that Breloom uses with impunity. Facade is the best Breloom can manage against Celebi, and it can't even 3HKO when Leftovers are factored in.
Only semi-relevant for the moment, as well, but Celebi does a lot better job of countering DW Breloom, with its massively powerful Bullet Seeds, than does Gliscor. Of course, it's a lot harder to trap and kill Gliscor than it is to trap and kill Celebi, with its pursuit weakness.
I don't know what Sigilyphs are unable to outspeed Breloom. Timid Sigilyph only needs to invest 40 evs in Speed in order to outrun Jolly Breloom.
If I see a Breloom on my opponent's team with team preview I usually try to get Sigilyph burned as soon as possible. If that doesn't happen I still switch in after something has been put to sleep. Personally, I have not run into many Breloom that do not sub directly after they Spore. I could see Sigilyph having problems switching directly into a Stone Edge, but even the Brelooms I have run into that don't sub use Focus Punch and even in this analysis, Stone Edge is never the first option. Furthermore, a Breloom that does use Stone Edge after a Substitute IS PP stalled by a faster Sigilyph with Cosmic Power and Roost, with a +1 Sigilyph taking 61.5% maximum on the first non-Roosting Cosmic Power turn from an Adamant Breloom. From there, Sigilyph can just Roost over and over again, taking a maximum of 30.1%, or risk a Cosmic Power in the face of SE's increased critical hit ratio. Even with a critical hit, Stone Edge fails to OHKO on Roosting turns. In addition, Facade does a maximum of 42.8%, easily Roosted off and set up on. The only way Breloom could possibly get through Sigilyph is by using Stone Edge on the switch in, getting 2 consecutive critical hits, or getting two consecutive max damage rolls with Stone Edge, with one of them being a critical hit.
EDIT: I was using an Adamant max attack Breloom and a Timid 252 HP / 56 Def Sigilyph
If I see a Breloom on my opponent's team with team preview I usually try to get Sigilyph burned as soon as possible. If that doesn't happen I still switch in after something has been put to sleep. Personally, I have not run into many Breloom that do not sub directly after they Spore. I could see Sigilyph having problems switching directly into a Stone Edge, but even the Brelooms I have run into that don't sub use Focus Punch and even in this analysis, Stone Edge is never the first option. Furthermore, a Breloom that does use Stone Edge after a Substitute IS PP stalled by a faster Sigilyph with Cosmic Power and Roost, with a +1 Sigilyph taking 61.5% maximum on the first non-Roosting Cosmic Power turn from an Adamant Breloom. From there, Sigilyph can just Roost over and over again, taking a maximum of 30.1%, or risk a Cosmic Power in the face of SE's increased critical hit ratio. Even with a critical hit, Stone Edge fails to OHKO on Roosting turns. In addition, Facade does a maximum of 42.8%, easily Roosted off and set up on. The only way Breloom could possibly get through Sigilyph is by using Stone Edge on the switch in, getting 2 consecutive critical hits, or getting two consecutive max damage rolls with Stone Edge, with one of them being a critical hit.
EDIT: I was using an Adamant max attack Breloom and a Timid 252 HP / 56 Def Sigilyph
The problem is that, with team preview, your opponent -knows- that you're running a Sigilyph, and can easily predict the switch in. And even if they fail to, at best, you can force them out once before they start expecting the obvious Sigilyph switch in and predicting with Stone Edge. Certainly, if your opponent's Breloom lacks SE, your Sigilyph works like a charm, but if it packs SE, the switch in is simply too risky. Good players adapt to the circumstances, and one who was actually worth anything would not continue to Focus Punch or Substitute when faced by a Sigilyph specifically equipped to take him on.
Let's also remember that if you're running the typical Psycho Shift Sigilyph, you have nothing with which to immediately threaten Breloom. Stored Power is too weak in its original form to force Breloom out. Without any Cosmic Powers to back you up, you're doing 16% at best to a Breloom with no HP or special defense EVs. The fact is, unless you run Psychic or Air Slash (thereby asking for your Sigilyph to be walled even after it has built up its defenses), you can't even effectively switch into Facade. Although Breloom cannot KO, it can significantly weaken Sigilyph and present a team mate with a free switch on the turn where Sigilyph is forced to Roost.
Irrespective, the bottom line is that a 'counter' is, specifically, a Pokemon able to switch into anything a given type can serve up. Sigilyph, plainly, cannot do so to Breloom, and so cannot be regarded as a counter. It can be used successfully, but it in no wise functions with the same efficacy as Gliscor or Celebi. It simply cannot switch in with impunity.
EDIT: I commented that Breloom could outrun Sigilyph because the standard Psychoshifter doesn't run speed EVs OR a Timid nature. It's Bold, with a maxed out HP and defense.
EDIT EDIT: Might help to speed this debate along if you posted the actual Sigilyph set you're using.
That literally makes zero sense. If you take a look at any and all other analyses the Checks and Counters sections usually include pokes that might not be able to switch into the opponent on a certain attack, or only counter a specific set, or may be ONLY able to switch in on a certain attack. If the Checks and Counters section had to only include a pokemon that could counter ALL sets then most, if not all, analyses wouldn't even be able to include such a section. Example from the Volcarona analysis.
In summary, these Pokemon are counters unless they switch into an attack that may or not be carried seeing as how it isn't standard. As for your argument against Sigilyph as a counter in general:
You say yourself that Sigilyph not only counters the standard sets, but works like a charm. Furthermore, your main argument against its inclusion as a counter is that it cannot switch into Stone Edge. What about Xatu? It has poorer stats in every category except attack when compared to Sigilyph while having the same type, and yet there was no argument against it as a counter. The other point you bring up is that Sigilyph must have been previously burned, yet you mention Gliscor as a superior counter that must fulfill the same prerequisites seeing as how it cannot simply switch into a Spore before being poisoned.
Lastly, the standard Sigilyph does run a Timid nature and has enough speed to outrun a Jolly Breloom
[SET]
name: Cosmic Power
move 1: Cosmic Power
move 2: Stored Power
move 3: Roost
move 4: Psycho Shift
item: Flame Orb
ability: Magic Guard
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 200 Def/ 56 Spe
When I did the calculations I accidentally mixed up the Speed and Defense EVs. My bad. Here they are with the corrected values.
Adamant Breloom Stone Edge vs +1 Sigilyph = 44.25 - 52.29%
Adamant Breloom Stone Edge vs +1 Roosting Sigilyph = 22.12 - 26.15%
Adamant Breloom Facade vs Sigilyph = 46.26 - 54.59%
Adamant Breloom Facade vs +1 Sigilyph = 30.74 - 36.49%
While Sigilyph may not be able to switch directly into a Stone Edge, it can still beat a Breloom with it by PP stalling out Stone Edge and then setting up enough Cosmic Powers to decimate it. Furthermore, the rest of the opponent's team is then royally screwed as Sigilyph is then completely set up firing of powerful Stored Powers.
Fuck I had this huge post and then my browser refreshed -_-.
Anyway, you can't use prediction as an argument. What if you predict your opponent to predict you to switch in your Sigilyph so he'll use Stone Edge instead but then what if he predicts that? It's a never ending cycle, which is why prediction is a poor argument. Also, I don't know how you did your damage calculation because 0 SpA Sigilyph always breaks 0/0 Breloom's Substitutes.
Besides, that section is called "Checks and Counters". It involves Pokemon that can come in but not on every move also. If you look at any other Pokemon analysis, such as Scizor, Heatran can come in on any move except for Brick Break/Superpower. Is it still considered a check/counter? Yes because it can switch in and immediately threaten the opposing Pokemon.
Anyway, I'd like to see a mention of Calm Mind Reuniclus (or at least bulky Reuniclus). It's immune to Leech Seed and only takes 30-35% from a 252 Adamant Seed Bomb vs 252/252+ Bold Reuniclus. Of course, you'd have to let something get put to sleep first, but that's how we've always dealt with Breloom in the past.
Anyway, you can't use prediction as an argument. What if you predict your opponent to predict you to switch in your Sigilyph so he'll use Stone Edge instead but then what if he predicts that? It's a never ending cycle, which is why prediction is a poor argument. Also, I don't know how you did your damage calculation because 0 SpA Sigilyph always breaks 0/0 Breloom's Substitutes.
Besides, that section is called "Checks and Counters". It involves Pokemon that can come in but not on every move also. If you look at any other Pokemon analysis, such as Scizor, Heatran can come in on any move except for Brick Break/Superpower. Is it still considered a check/counter? Yes because it can switch in and immediately threaten the opposing Pokemon.
Anyway, I'd like to see a mention of Calm Mind Reuniclus (or at least bulky Reuniclus). It's immune to Leech Seed and only takes 30-35% from a 252 Adamant Seed Bomb vs 252/252+ Bold Reuniclus. Of course, you'd have to let something get put to sleep first, but that's how we've always dealt with Breloom in the past.
... because Xatu wasn't mentioned as a counter in the OP. Why would I argue against Xatu being mentioned as a counter to Breloom, when it wasn't mentioned as a counter?
If you read my earlier post, I comment that I regard Celebi to be a better counter to Breloom than Gliscor specifically because Gliscor needs to activate its Toxic Orb before being able to switch in.
Lastly, a small distinction but an important one: I commented that PS Sigilyph counters the standard Leech Seed Breloom, not the standard Breloom period. Whilst LS Breloom does not run SE, a good portion of the more offensive variants do.
In that sense, your Volcarona analogy is simply not apt - none of Volcarona's standard sets utilise HP ground or rock, whereas 2 of Breloom's 4 sets utilise Stone Edge.
From my experience, most Psycho Shift Sigilyphs run a Bold or Calm nature. The OP of the Sigilyph thread (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79322&page=5) lists Timid as the preferred option over Calm, but similarly does not suggest any speed investment. It's fairly academic, though, and I'll respond specifically to the set you mentioned:
Problem is that the setting up will never happen against any experienced Breloom player, because they will know to switch out Breloom if they fail to get in the initial Stone Edge or Facade on the switch. They aren't going to engage you in a PP war, and they aren't going to stick around once you start building up your defenses. Assuming your opponent has let you stall out the PP of Stone Edge and build up your Cosmic Powers, yes he is royally screwed, but this has more to do with the fact that he is either a terrible player or has never encountered PS Sigilyph before.
Even in the case where you do not carry Stone Edge, but prefer Facade, if Breloom Facades the incoming Sigilyph, Breloom can afford another Facade before retreating, presenting whatever your opponent has to answer Sigilyph with a free switch in on the inevitable Roost and a ~65% HP Sigilyph to deal with.
I am NOT saying that Sigilyph is a poor Pokemon to switch in to Breloom, but that you depend too highly on your opponent adhering to patterns when playing Breloom to manage the feat. There is no assurance that you will come out on top whatsoever. This is simply not the case with Gliscor and Celebi.
@Supermarth - Thus the distinction then arising between a check and a counter. The 'never ending argument' never occurs when it comes to Gliscor and Celebi, because even if you know they're coming, you can't do anything with Breloom to prepare for it. They 'counter' Breloom by stopping it from doing its job, regardless of how good the Breloom player is. In order to effectively utilise Breloom, the Breloom player must remove them from their opponent's line up first.
Sigilyph does not perform the same function. It stops Breloom from performing its job IF the opponent does not wise up to the tactic, plain and simple.
EDIT: And missed the earlier posts calling for Espeon and Xatu's inclusions as counters. Obviously, I object as well - what on earth is the point of listing something as a counter when it's just as likely to be mangled by the switch in than to actually do something to the Pokemon in question? You might as well list Heatran as a counter to itself, since the standard sets tend to run Choice items, and the thing is immune to its own STAB attack.
First of all, stop bringing up Facade. It is irrelevant:
Adamant Breloom Facade vs. +0 Sigilyph = 46.26 - 54.59%
Sigilyph is more than able to switch in on a Facade, use Cosmic Power, and Roost up. Even with two max damage rolls you can't KO it. Facade is useless.
As for Stone Edge:
Adamant Breloom Stone Edge vs. +0 Sigilyph = 66.09 - 78.16%
Far from "mangled" considering that you can Roost, taking:
Adamant Breloom Stone Edge vs. +0 Roosting Sigilyph = 33.04 - 39.08%
From there, Roost again, and then proceed to Cosmic Power. Again, barring critical hits, Sigilyph wins. EVEN IF IT SWITCHES INTO STONE EDGE. It's a counter.
Oh, and why did you link me to the Sigilyph thread that is not part of 5th Gen OU Analyses queue? The set I posted has been QC checked and everything. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86878
But the bigger issue here is your concept of what qualities a Pokemon needs to have in order to be considered a counter in an analysis.
Since my Volcarona example wasn't applicable enough to get my idea across (I have no idea why, the main standard set does run either HP Ground or HP Rock http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83015) what about Starmie? Blissey comes first to mind as a counter, and surely is, but what if Starmie carries Trick, like on the standard Choice set? Blissey is owned. The Rapid Spin set is completely walled by Ferrothorn, and is also mentioned as a counter, but is also crippled by Trick and furthermore, Hidden Power fire, which is standard on the Life Orb set, which is in turn, countered by the previously mentioned Blissey. So, in other words, a Pokemon does not need to counter every set another Pokemon commonly runs in order to be considered a counter. In fact most Checks and Counters sections say that so in so Pokemon counters such in such a set.
Weird.
Adamant Breloom Facade vs. +0 Sigilyph = 46.26 - 54.59%
Sigilyph is more than able to switch in on a Facade, use Cosmic Power, and Roost up. Even with two max damage rolls you can't KO it. Facade is useless.
As for Stone Edge:
Adamant Breloom Stone Edge vs. +0 Sigilyph = 66.09 - 78.16%
Far from "mangled" considering that you can Roost, taking:
Adamant Breloom Stone Edge vs. +0 Roosting Sigilyph = 33.04 - 39.08%
From there, Roost again, and then proceed to Cosmic Power. Again, barring critical hits, Sigilyph wins. EVEN IF IT SWITCHES INTO STONE EDGE. It's a counter.
Oh, and why did you link me to the Sigilyph thread that is not part of 5th Gen OU Analyses queue? The set I posted has been QC checked and everything. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86878
But the bigger issue here is your concept of what qualities a Pokemon needs to have in order to be considered a counter in an analysis.
Since my Volcarona example wasn't applicable enough to get my idea across (I have no idea why, the main standard set does run either HP Ground or HP Rock http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83015) what about Starmie? Blissey comes first to mind as a counter, and surely is, but what if Starmie carries Trick, like on the standard Choice set? Blissey is owned. The Rapid Spin set is completely walled by Ferrothorn, and is also mentioned as a counter, but is also crippled by Trick and furthermore, Hidden Power fire, which is standard on the Life Orb set, which is in turn, countered by the previously mentioned Blissey. So, in other words, a Pokemon does not need to counter every set another Pokemon commonly runs in order to be considered a counter. In fact most Checks and Counters sections say that so in so Pokemon counters such in such a set.
Weird.
Okay, we can put the discussion to an end by saying: without Stone Edge, any boosted neutral Attack, or Spore unaffected by the Sleep clause, Breloom is countered by Sigilyph. Even in some situations, Sigilyph can be counted as a good "check" due to being able to set up Cosmic Power on Facade.
In fact, we can probably say for each set that if Breloom lacks an option, such as a SuperPower or Stone Edge, it gets singled out by some things, thus pointing to "checks and counters". There's no need to play "smart player" and "bad player" here. We list Breloom's checks and counters and how he should handle them, simple.
In fact, we can probably say for each set that if Breloom lacks an option, such as a SuperPower or Stone Edge, it gets singled out by some things, thus pointing to "checks and counters". There's no need to play "smart player" and "bad player" here. We list Breloom's checks and counters and how he should handle them, simple.
Facade is relevant because whilst you might force Breloom out, you can't do so without presenting whatever Pokemon your opponent has to switch in with a free switch against a greatly weakened Pokemon. Most players would welcome the opportunity, rather than feeling that their strategy had been foiled.
Irrespective, I'm getting a bit tired of this, and AccidentalGreed is right. The point in any case is Gliscor and Celebi are infinitely better at it than Sigilyph, and that's the end of the story.
Irrespective, I'm getting a bit tired of this, and AccidentalGreed is right. The point in any case is Gliscor and Celebi are infinitely better at it than Sigilyph, and that's the end of the story.
For the SubSeed set, leftovers is also viable I think, as since this set is a stall set really, it allows you to switch in on a toxic. Lefties + leech seed is already decent recovery, and if you get the toxic boost, recovery is almost 33%.
Lefties = 6.25%
Leech seed = 12.5%
Toxic heal = 12.5%
Without toxic heal = 18.75% -> 6.25% loss after a sub
With toxic heal = 31.25% -> 6.25% gain after sub
And given that the metagame is dominated by weather, but mainly sand, you get neutral recovery w/ sand in play (though sand stall isnt as common as sand offense)
Lastly, I think changing Def EVs to Spe EVs might work better, breloom isn't exactly made for tanking hits, and outspeeding you opponent would allow you to tank using a sub/get a spore off.
Lefties = 6.25%
Leech seed = 12.5%
Toxic heal = 12.5%
Without toxic heal = 18.75% -> 6.25% loss after a sub
With toxic heal = 31.25% -> 6.25% gain after sub
And given that the metagame is dominated by weather, but mainly sand, you get neutral recovery w/ sand in play (though sand stall isnt as common as sand offense)
Lastly, I think changing Def EVs to Spe EVs might work better, breloom isn't exactly made for tanking hits, and outspeeding you opponent would allow you to tank using a sub/get a spore off.
It's AC or OC at best, since, like Gliscor, there are only a few, situational opportunities where a foe would use Toxic (not that many do anyway). Also, both Gliscor and Breloom recover sufficient damage with just a Toxic Orb, so Leftovers is best left as an OO.
Hmm... Makes sense, although in stall vs stall, toxic does get thrown about a lot. You would have to switch in on a predicted toxic, which I guess doesnt make it entirely reliable (especially since sub blocks toxic).
I do still think speed investment works better, since breloom's defensive stats are pretty mediocre, outspeeding opponents to get a spore/sub off first is more invaluable imo.
I do still think speed investment works better, since breloom's defensive stats are pretty mediocre, outspeeding opponents to get a spore/sub off first is more invaluable imo.
Looks good, just make sure to mention Espeon, Reuniclus, Xatu, and Sigilyph (they do well against non-Stone Edge Breloom) as ways to handle Breloom as mentioned by previous posters. I also agree with Delta's post about Offensive SubPunch to an extent; Breloom doesn't need to outpace much, but the 244 Spe EVs do let him get the jump on Rotom-A. A mention of a bulkier spread is worth mentioning imo (236 HP, 252 Atk, 20 Spe).
QC APPROVED (2/3)
QC APPROVED (2/3)
the all-out attacking set is awesome if u use toxic orb + stone edge + mach punch + poisen heal
Adamant should be slashed with Impish on the SubSeed set (or at least mentioned in AC). It gives you more stat points overall and the difference in power is pretty noticeable. 0 Atk 0 Speed IV Relaxed Ferrothorn still breaks Impish Breloom's substitute with Gyro Ball...
[SET]
name: SubDrain
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Drain Punch
move 3: Spore
move 4: Stone Edge
item: Toxic Orb
nature: Adamant
ability: Poison Heal
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
I've had a LOT of success with this set. Drain Punch + Poison Heal recovers insane amounts of HP, and it has enough power to pose a threat without Life Orb. You can bluff a Sporepuncher, then catch would be counters with Stone Edge.
Alternatively, slash Drain Punch with Focus Punch on the Offensive SubPunch set. It should be mentioned somewhere.
name: SubDrain
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Drain Punch
move 3: Spore
move 4: Stone Edge
item: Toxic Orb
nature: Adamant
ability: Poison Heal
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
I've had a LOT of success with this set. Drain Punch + Poison Heal recovers insane amounts of HP, and it has enough power to pose a threat without Life Orb. You can bluff a Sporepuncher, then catch would be counters with Stone Edge.
Alternatively, slash Drain Punch with Focus Punch on the Offensive SubPunch set. It should be mentioned somewhere.