Bulky Sweepers = Awesome. RMT!

[Colonel M]

Alright alright, so I've been actually re-attempting to make teams, this time to make it a bit more of my style, except lacking Close Combat, which really makes me iffy. Despite that, this team has done really well, and has only really lost once because a Weavile got a lucky Critical off of me. I'm pretty sure this team has weaknesses and maybe Pokemon that don't look like they are pulling their weight, but otherwise please RMT! Images from Pokebip.com (and I don't really understand Spanish / French real well so I just... yeah).

I'll probably go tl;dr on this, so obviously DON'T quote the entire RMT!

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/152 Atk/8 Def/96 SDef
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Gyro Ball
- Grass Knot
- Stealth Rock
- Hypnosis
---

I think many people will agree with me that Bronzong is a great start on the team. EVs I'm not so sure of, so I kind of just ripped them off from the analysis. Pure and simple, Bronzong is effective to my team. Grass Knot is there to counter Bulky Waters pretty well actually, and Gyro Ball stops the obvious Mamoswine / Tyranitar / Weavile stuff. Hypnosis and Stealth Rock complete the set and make me feel all fuzzy and warm inside when this thing works perfectly.

Tyranitar (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP/40 Atk/216 SDef
Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
---

Jibaku Tyranitar that's a bit more stretched out. This basically spells Bulky Sweeper. Think about it: A Pokemon with 100 / 110 / 100 Defenses with even more Special Defense thanks to the Sandstorm is a Godsend! And being slow isn't a big deal since you want to be slow in a way: Pursuit just hurts! The moveset otherwise is obvious as it seems. It helps tremendously by picking off weaker foes as well as taking out stupid walls like Cresselia. The EVs will survive a Gengar's Focus Blast as far as Timid and a Life Orb attatched, so this basically spells Gengar's death.

Why to choose Tyranitar even if Sandstorm kills off Leftovers for Machamp, Salamence, and Starmie?

First off, let's face reality. You're going to see Sandstorm or Hail sooner or later, so it doesn't really matter to me. Second off, despite the damage that I recieve from it, remember that my opponnent does too. Since I have no Focus Sash strategies, there are no worries about that. This also builds into something else: Tyranitar takes hits very well, even that are Super Effective and STAB. Examples would be Yanmega: without any boost of an item, Modest Yanmega with Bug Buzz is scratching a 3HKO. And believe it or not, not many expect this to happen. There's also the problem of Raikou. Without Tyranitar, I would NEED Swampert on this team just to cover that weakness. Tyranitar, however, doesn't mind Thunderbolts at all.

So in short, why I chose Tyranitar was:

- Sandstorm kills off Focus Sash strategies.
- Pursuit is a great benefit to the team.
- Taking Super Effective Special hits? Amazing.

Machamp (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dynamicpunch
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- Ice Punch
---

Still shaky on using Machamp, however, I did need a Fighting move, and I was blessed with it. The downside is is that I can't take on Gengar as easily as before, so extra percaution will be needed to take him down. Anyways, Machamp is great. DynamicPunch just tears through everything while Ice Punch takes on Gliscor pretty well. Because of Machamp, however, this gives me a bit more solid "counter" to Tyranitar, so it generally works out.

Scizor (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 232 HP/252 Atk/24 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- Quick Attack
- X-Scissor
---

Alright thar! This is the famous (or infamous) DanceOrb! The set, IMO, isn't that bad and takes advantage of many things that Scizor has. First, his general bulkiness allows him to take quite a few hits. Second, his Technician ability makes Quick Attack monstrous combined with Life Orb. Finally, Roost: one of the advantages over Lucario. So yeah, Roost was a reason why I chose him over Lucario. After a Swords Dance, Quick Attack is going to be destroying a lot of Pokemon that don't resist it or aren't bulky, and X-Scissor will decimate anything else if needed. #1 contender against Celebi.

Salamence (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 224 HP/12 Atk/196 Def/76 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Roost
---

I'm damn impressed with this set for the most part. This is Physical BulkyMence, my answer to, suprisingly, a lot of things that you can name off. Roost gains free acess to recovery: something that Gyarados lacks greatly. Pretty solid spot actually and counters Heracross and Lucario decently (obviously not versus Hidden Power Ice but you get the point).

Starmie @ Expert Belt
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 136 HP/252 Spd/120 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Surf
- Thunderbolt

The "star" of the show I guess? Not really, everyone here is stellar, but Starmie is too, so why not? Starmie picks up what Tyranitar left over, and basically that stands pretty well. CounterStar was something that benefits my team pretty well, since Infernape / Gyarados / Garchomp are hard to stop to begin with, and Starmie can still stop the first two pretty easily, and at least Starmie can stop Garchomp from 6 - 0 my entire team.

I've thought a lot about Expert Belt because with the investment of Special Attack EVs the bar minimum against a 252 HP / 0 SpD Celebi is 200 damage, so it can hit ~50% with general ease. This just puts down Celebi a bit more, but at a cost of suffering Sandstorm damage, so I'm still debating on the item or not. Still, another way to seriously hurt Celebi as well as any other Pokemon in general helps out a lot more than you think, so I'm trying Expert Belt right now.

Threat list (to be updated soon):
Tyranitar: Machamp probably scratches as the best counter in my team to this, with Bronzong in tow of it as well.

Gyarados: Starmie.

Infernape: Starme. Salamence can take on Infernapes lacking Hidden Power Ice.

Azelf: Most of the time, Tyranitar can take on this thing as long as he stays away from Hidden Power Fighting. The only set that probably would scare me would be Nasty Plot / Flamethrower / Hidden Power Fighting / Psychic. Not good against this unfortunately, but I've beaten it left and right for the most part.

Electivire: Bronzong.

Heracross: Salamence does this excellently.

Salamence: Tricky. I can't really say Starmie "stops" Salamence, but can at least scare it off. Bulky variants with Earthquake and Dragon-move are scared off by Bronzong at least.

Togekiss: Technically none, but it's not like it's going to stand up to a whole lot of damage in this team.

Gengar: Any Specs or Scarf variants or those lacking Focus Blast and Focus Punch automatically fall to Tyranitar. Otherwise, Starmie can easily revenge-kill it as well as Bronzong, provided that there is some residual damage.

Garchomp: Starmie scratches off Garchomp for the most part. Scarfed and Banded variants fall to Bronzong.

Lucario: Salamence qualifies as the best counter to this. Unfortunately Hidden Power Ice stops it cold, so provided that Vacuum Wave and Aura Sphere aren't locked on, Tyranitar can handle that. Otherwise, even Stone Edge variants fall on shaky grounds with Salamence.

Starmie: Bronzong stops it for the most part, at least fending him off. Tyranitar takes Surfs still decently and can Pursuit Starmie with little worries. Spinner Starmies fall easily to my Starmie provided it lacks Thunderbolt. Salamence falls in the same category, only if he lacks Ice Beam.

Weavile: Bronzong.

Dugtrio: Well okay, Machamp can still use Ice Punch and Bronzong really has no worries against him. Could we say Salamence falls in this category too?

Porygon-Z: Bronzong.

Machamp: ...Wow, I don't have much of an answer.

Snorlax: Machamp.

Zapdos: Tyranitar.

Suicune: Tyranitar could still dent Suicune provided no Calm Minds have entered yet. Bronzong would do okay if only he faces no Crocunes.

Breloom: Machamp takes the sleeping potion and can still threaten him. Then it goes to switching around Starmie or even Salemence.

Ninjask: To me, this is a joke. Scizor could EASILY set up on this thing.

Metagross: Do my best I guess. Just keep trying to pick him off with Bronzong will do.

Heatran: Starmie.

Celebi: I'd say in this case, Tyranitar would scratch as the best way to stop him, but Grass Knot just hurts. Salamence would follow, allowing easy set-up. Scizor, however, is the best against this thing because he has little worries against it and can just Swords Dance in it's face.

Jirachi: Tyranitar still can force him to U-Turn, and Calm Mind variants are a joke against TTar. Scizor can also help add onto the damage as well.

Dragonite: Starmie again, but seriously this thing is hard to stop. Locking itself into Outrage gives Bronzong a chance to fight him.

Mamoswine: Say it with me. BRONZONG!

Gallade: For the most part, this requires prediction. However, Salamence would qualify as a decent switch-in. Starmie still can revenge kill the beast provided it's not locked onto something deadly.

Yanmega: Tyranitar suffers a 3HKO from an unboosted Bug Buzz, but probably does his best here. Without Blissey / Snorlax / Heatran, you have to accept that it will be hard to stop.

Kingdra: I can still kill off the rain with Sandstorm, but I'm probably not scratching this one easily. I'd say for the most part that Starmie might do alright against him and Bronzong would probably follow as well.

Roserade: Not that I see this. Machamp does well against it. Salamence laughs at it for the most part.

Scizor: Not exactly a weaker Lucario so... I'd say Machamp and Salamence would provide me the best against him.

Suprisingly I can't think of a whole lot more on the top of my head. I'm going to say that there probably is a lot more than just Metagross. But still, RMT folks, and thanks for the help if you can!

 

[Urza]

perhaps use a vaporeon as a wish-passer instead of starmie?

vaporeon@leftovers
bold nature (+defense, - attack)
evs: 188 hp, 224 df, 96 spatk (for security purposes)
wish
surf
ice beam
hidden power [electric]

stands up to a lot of the same things starmie does without the combined weakness, hits slightly less hard with hp electric(although he does actually have higher base spatk, so surf and ice beam won't suffer much if at all) and supports the team more since you aren't using rapid spin starmie.

isn't quite as easy to heal, since wish is a two turn move, but has water absorb, and in my experience is much bulkier.





just a possibility.

 

[gorm]

missy and tar is a really bad combination, as missy can't sweep at all in the sand.

maybe jirachi>missy if you want a cm sub sweeper. i can get you my evs if you want

on the other hand, tar doesnt seem to fit this team at all. metagross might work better since you have his weaks well covered and you can still pursuit

 

[Colonel M]

As great as Vaporeon is, the problem is it doesn't add any Speed, I guess, to the team in general. Starmie is fast and can easily pick off Garchomp and Infernape with little problems since Starmie is outspeeding them in the first place while Vaporeon has to be more weary of the situation. In short: I probably don't see a huge reason to use him. It's just, in my opinion, Starmie does a lot of things, with the exception of Wish, better than Vaporeon. To me what hurts it the most is no Natural Cure. If I did really consider Wish, it's possible it might be Jirachi. Thank you for the suggestion however.I'm going to agree Gorm, maybe Jirachi fits better over Mismagius however. I'll look at Vaporeon a bit more tonight and I'll see how Jirachi does (but now I feel like a total copycat). And Metagross? Hm, I can agree with you that Sandstorm does suck in the team. EDIT: Why can't I use the enter key in the post? ;_; Get the EVs I guess Gorm and I'll try Jirachi first, then I'll swap to Metagross if all else fails.

 

[stvn]

Yeah, CM Jirachi would really fit this team. CM, Wish, Psychic and Thunderbolt. I personally use 252 HP, 76 Def, 180 Spd with a Bold Nature. Outspeeds all that damn Adamat SD Lucarios that are everywhere if you need to revenge it. It will also beat whatever Blissey you have to fight.
Wish just because your team can benefit a lot from it. Pass to Zong when the Eq comes or to Tyra when you predict a fire attack. Both will really enjoy regaining health.
Oh and, You could drop Roost on Mece, since him and Jirachi have perfect synergy.

Jirachi will also help against CBded Meteor Mashes and can actually damage Meta with Thunderbolt. Though AgilityGross will continue to totally sweep you... Eq on Bronzong would reeeeally help, maybe over Gyro Ball or even Hypnosis? Or put GK on Jirachi and try someting like Skarm or Gliscor over Bronzong...

 

[Colonel M]

To me Roost is mandatory on 'Mence for the sake of "I can still recover freely without little worries." Stealth Rock is a pain in the ass, and it really helps him stay bulky even if Jirachi dies. On the other hand I'm going to attempt to try Jirachi I guess and see how it works. And I guess I can see how Earthquake works on 'Zong over Gyro Ball, though I want to guess it won't help against Garchomp so much anymore.

 

[junior]

Just rebutting what Stvn said, you should make sure it outspeeds Mamoswine, a big threat to Jirachi. In doing this, assuming you have set a sub up and have a couple of CMs, you can either OHKO it before it breaks your sub or hit it twice before it can do some direct damage to you. It's only an extra 20 EVs into speed so it won't hurt your defensive capabilities much.

Your Starmie really wants max EVs Special attack. This allows you to deal with the common YacheChomps much better. Putting Life Orb on it will render Yache Berry useless more than half of the time seing how it does a minimum of 72% to it and an average of 79%.

This will allow you to revenge kill Garchomp a lot easier, seeing as none of your pokemons can do it anyway. If you don't do this, Garchomp will take your team down quite easily.

Oh and one more thing, TTar doesn't fit in this team very well. You should look for a better physical attacker that doesn't cripple some of your own pokemons, i.e. Garchomp.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

If you use Jirachi, you almost 100% have to use Reflect on it. Fuck sweeping, I'd be more worried about CBTar, who can simply just pick anything off one by one. Hell it can even stay in and take a little abuse and continue picking things off. Jirachi wouldn't sweep as a CM'er anyways with Tyranitar around as it is.

But if you must use it as a sweeper, you'd almost have to put Heatran in over Snorlax as something to just resist Crunch, other than the no recovery Tyranitar. I'd personally put Machamp in there for fun sake, but it probably isn't bulky enough for what you're trying to do.

 

[davesoultra]

i just got done with a new snorlax, i used to use a curselax and i dunno it just wasnt what i was looking for but now i use this moveset and these evs

Snorlax
nature - impish up def down speA
item - lum berry
moveset - body slam
rest
recycle
stockpile

HP - 200
Def - 110
SpeD - 200

... i start off with a stockpile and just try to build them up for the full 3, if my hp gets low, i do rest, then lum berry kicks in, follow that up with recycle to get the berry back, and body slam away until the hp drops again and i just repeat the process... i battled a few people over the last few days and this idea has been pretty dominant and im gonna stick with it

 

[Colonel M]

I stayed up for a bit and I tested a few things.

First off, I want to agree that a Support Jirachi might do better here. Mismagius did pretty well for me I guess, but I'm thinking Jirachi could prove better, being a sweeper or not. However, I don't think if I use Support Jirachi that outspeeding Mamoswine is necessary, or is at all in the first place seeing I have Bronzong, Mamoswine's most feared counter.

I can argue that Machamp would benefit the team greatly over Snorlax, since Dynamicpunch is so damn sexy and all, and Ice Punch could help give me a slighly easier time with Garchomp if needed (not that he's going to take extreme hits from Garchomp anyways).

I guess to me I did see Sandstream hurting the team but not a whole lot for some reason, but perhaps it was of my preference. I tried out Metagross and didn't exactly get "stellar" results, maybe it's because I'm not extremely interested in using a 3rd Steel-type on this team, which would be really bad from my experience.

I guess I'll play around with the team a bit more today. Despite it not being edited up top, I'm planning to test and possibly add Machamp and Jirachi onto the team over Mismagius and Snorlax.

I also want to put more input on why I put Tyranitar on the team. I was aware that Sandstorm caused some problems for the team, however, I wanted Pursuit in general since Metagross didn't cut it as well as expected. Tyranitar easily picks off Cresselia and Blissey, and unless the guy was using shitty EVs, Yanmega Bug Buzz is like a 3HKO on that Tyranitar even. Starmie's Surfs would generally do a lot less than it would normally and such. I guess it may be a shitty reason why I put him in, but I want to try out Tyranitar a bit more before I charge toward another sweeper.

[EDIT]: I put Machamp and Jirachi in and kept Tyranitar. Sorry guys, but seriously Tyranitar seems to belong in this team too well. Still, I'll try not to be too arrogant about this. Skarmory sucks, I hate that metal bird so damn much.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

If Skarmory is -that- annoying, you could make the team a bit more anti Skarmory. Obviously it's not going to dare switch into Machamp or Tyranitar or Salamence (at first) or Starmie. Bronzong we really can't fit anything, so Jirachi is going to be the reoccuring entry point. So if you need paralysis, and scare of Skarmory, why not just use Thunder there. Still the 60% Paralyzing rate, trading 30% accuracy for the chance to do roughly 70% more to Skarm then BS would've!

 

[Colonel M]

It's not Skarmory alone that's annoying, it's when Skarmory is combined with Blissey so damn much, because I'm not breaking it that quickly. I guess however Thunder would do well over... U-Turn perhaps, so I'll just slap it there. At least this gives a little bit of assurance against Metagross. Not much, but some. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Peanut-Lover]

Solely going on the fact that Salamence is frail, Dragon rush is not the best option - 20 base power for 25% accuracy drop is not good, imo. I believe chaos said that one screw up could decide the fate of the battle, and if that screw up comes in with sala, well...

Seeing as there is a T-tar, why not run Garchomp? You lose out on roost, but you get better HP, Def, and SpDef. You get Sand veil, and can easily set up a swords dance with a brightpowder set.


I also want to make a comment about Jirachi and Thunder - Thunder has pretty bad accuracy without Sandstorm, let alone with. 60% para hax is sweet, but that only happens if it hits, which is 50% in sandstorm.
Also, you lower its power using an impish nature - either use Psychic > Zen Headbutt, or get a better skarm counter, like fire blast sala or garchomp.

 

[Colonel M]

Forgot about Thunder. Added Body Slam possibly, but still won't let Thunder slip out of my head yet.

Why use Garchomp? Okay, I understand, I get the Sand Veil boost as well as the immunity to Sandstorm but seriously, is it an absolute must on a team with Tyranitar? Doesn't Salamence fit in this team fine? And how is Salamence "frail"? Give me a break, he can take a Stone Edge from Heracross and still recover. Garchomp doesn't have Roost on the other hand and obviously I need Sala to fend off Fighting-types, which otherwise trample a lot of this team in general. I don't like Brightpowder because it's quite gimmicky, since you're relying on hax to get the best of things, and not even the most reliable hax either.

As far as Dragon Rush versus Dragon Claw: I've missed with Dragon Rush once or twice, and the reason I use it is for the sole purpose of OHKOing more efficienty against Heracross (without taking into account of Stealth Rock). Though I do like Dragon Claw's accuracy, Dragon Rush missing hasn't exactly cost me a huge loss yet. This is just saying that I'm tossing around Dragon Claw and Dragon Rush, but otherwise I've stuck with Dragon Rush and it still has done fine for me.

Sorry, but it kind of pisses me off when I see "why not just add Garchomp in here when you have Tyranitar?"

 

[L E A V E1]

Not that you will ever see any, but lanturn really counters this team O_O.

 

[stvn]

the only pokemon lanturn is countering is Starmie, so... no.

 

[Colonel M]

Yeah, I just got swept by Metagross, Agility one nevertheless. I guess I'm going to slap Earthquake on Bronzong, but this brings me back in trouble against Swampert. Sorry to ask this but... any ideas? ;_;...

 

[ToF]

Yeah, I just got swept by Metagross, Agility one nevertheless. I guess I'm going to slap Earthquake on Bronzong, but this brings me back in trouble against Swampert. Sorry to ask this but... any ideas? ;_;...

Machamp covers Swampert to an extent. Also, Im wondering how you were swept by Agiligross, unless it carried Thunderpunch. Doesn't Starmie deal fine with it to an extent, or did it get MM boosts?

 

[Force]

hey, what exactly are you scared of from dragonite/salamence. Agility Dragonite?

 

[Colonel M]

@Twist of Fate: Hm, I did forget about that. Maybe I'll sneak Earthquake on Bronzong then and just try Machamp to counteract it. Meh, usually Agiligrosses (that I've seen anyways) carry Thunderpunch on their moveset, so I've been considering Eq for a while...

@Force: It's not that I'm holy hell scared of them, it's actually the Yache DDance sets that would be the most intimidating. Dragonite's can be easier to stop since once he's locked into Outrage Bronzong can just Gyro Ball or put it to sleep. DDance Sala on the other can lack a bit a power at first but I guess can still put a tear here and there on the team provided I lose a team member or two.

 

[Force]

Well, the major problem I see with this team is that you are convinced on running T-tar, which in turn, causes you to give a majority of your pokemon leftovers to counteract ttar.

iMo you are better off running some other type of physical sweeper; that way, you can give your other pokemon other items to hold that could essentially benefit your team against the likes of metagross, salamence, etc. Also, I would give jirachi thunderbolt over body slam.

 

[Dangerous]

It only has 1 Sp Atker? THAT's weird imo...

 

[Colonel M]

Alright, if I do have to go a bit more into why I chose Tyranitar.

Look guys, you have to understand the main reason why I chose him: Pursuit. He gets STAB off it, something that Heracross and Metagross lack. So what if Weavile can Pursuit, he's frail as hell, and I need something that takes hits. I've found that Sandstorm will bring a disadvantage to recovery, but remember: I don't switch in Tyranitar as quickly as you think I do. I only switch in Tyranitar if Tyranitar has the advantage, so sometimes there isn't even a bit of Sandstorm present when I trample a team.

Also understand that he handles Cresselia like no other and can still take down a weakened Celebi (note: I'm not switching 'Tar into Celebi). His Pursuit is his most valuable asset to him: it's what helps the team because Tyranitar picks off the weakened foes with Pursuit.

I know where you guys are going with the whole "it hurts my team" comment, but you realize that if I replace him a lot of the bulk is lost in the team. It's handed me a shitload of wins and the Sandstorm not even being cared about. Remember: Salamence, Machamp, and Starmie still have recovery moves, so there's nothing to seriously worry about. And even so, Jirachi can pass Wish here and there if it's in an emergency. Not that I have a whole lot of references, but you can ask many people that I've faced against and I have barely lost. Hell if anything, the Sandstorm helped me WIN some of the battles.

I guess I'll be honest: I don't know how to make people feel more comfortable with Tyranitar being in this team, but ask yourself which would be better: slapping Heracross and a RestTalk DDance Gyara (which were originally thought in this team) or Tyranitar and Machamp, who take on a lot more threats? And trust me, I intended Leftovers for Machamp, Starmie, and even Salamence, so Sandstorm or not the items wouldn't have mattered!

Seriously, I don't mean to sound arrogant or an ass, but the team has worked with Tyranitar in it just fine.

 

[Phadunk]

Heracross would be a good substitute instead of Tyranitar.

You could make it a choice band. Or even..

EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/6 Def
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge

Your "sweepers" seem slow anyways.. so you could use this "bulky" Heracross, and be able to do some nice things.

Jirachi and Body Slam can give you some para support, for Machamp and Heracross.

And maybe switch out Starmie and/or Bronzong for another para supporter, who can also do some damage. Just an idea. I've tried that Heracross set, and it survives shit.


Edit:// nvm.. looks like you have your mind made up..

 

[ToF]

Colonel, at your Metagross comment, I assume more Agiligross pack Ice punch because of the dragons, so Starmie is a perfectly viable counter. If it does pack Thunderpunch, than Bronzong walls it hard. I think the Metagross problem was exaggerated. As for YacheChomp, its all gonna come down to prediction, though you have no true switch into it. Personally, I feel that Jirachi is the weak link in the team. Wishpassing is useful for Bronzong and Tyranitar, but the rest don't need it. I find that inserting something like Skarmory or Gliscor will really help with the Garchomp issue.