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Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.
Roserade still can't run Spikes+Sleep Powder by my reckoning...they're still incompatible egg moves.
Too bad roserade didnt get acid spray to abuse technician
The move that does 40 bp poison type damage + lowers foes sp def by 2 stages
And conkeldurr is way better with guts..
Besides iron first doesnt even boost 50% only like 20-30 (correct me if im erong XD)
Iron Fist is only a 20% boost, but it's the most feasible Ability to run for a SubPunch set. Sheer Force would only boost coverage moves and Guts requires you to sacrifice survivability, which obviously isn't an option with a Sub set. And Mach Punch is a guaranteed boost for virtually any move that Conkeldurr would move except Payback.
I would like to ask to you what move is currently the most useful on Jirachi as of now: Body Slam or Thunder Wave.
I generally prefer Thunder Wave because it is guaranteed to paralyze the opponent, as long as it isn't a Ground-type or is named Jolteon or Thundurus-T. The problem is that these threats are actually very relevant, moreso than Ghost-types, and paralyzing Dugtrio is an internal desire that I have to flinch those moles that think that can trap and defeat my Jirachi to death.
However, Body Slam is many times unreliable for me, especially if the opponent is NOT a Ground-type or has Lightingrod/Volt Abosrb. Not being able to paralyze Ghost-types is a shame, but as of now this was only a real problem when fighting against Gengar. If I am giving up the warranty to paralyze the opponent for the ability to paralyze Ground-types or things with Lightingrod/Volt Absorb, I expect Body Slam to not disappoint me most of time, but sadly, it does. Also, while Jirachi can paralyze Ground-types with Body Slam, most of them can still threaten to kill Jirachi with Earthquake, so if Iron Head doesn't flinch (while it's unlikely to occur, but CAN happen), it's destroyed by Earthquake. This doesn't occur with Ghost-types, because most of them are unlikely to defeat Jirachi in one move, except Chandelure and Golurk, and those aren't common. Also, three common Ground-types, Gliscor, Landorus-T and Hippowdon, don't care much about paraflinching, thanks to their high defenses.
To you, what move is currently the better? Body Slam or Thunder Wave?
I prefer Body Slam as it can paralyse a much larger range of Pokémon. Being setup fodder for things like Thundurus-T/Landorus-I just isn't ideal in the current metagame, so make sure you pack solid counters to those if you plan on using Thunder Wave Jirachi. You may not be able to safely paraflinch them, but at least you've crippled them for the rest of the match. Gengar can't really do much to it anyway, outside of getting SDef drops on it with Shadow Ball/disabling Iron Head. As for the other ghosts - they generally pack Will-o-wisp so trying to paraflinch them to death isn't exactly the smartest option.
I run Tinkerbell Celebi alongside Jirachi with Body Slam as a paralysis duo, but when I don't, I use TWave on Jirachi. Both of them have their uses, so I'd just use them depending on your teammates. Like, if you have ways to beat ghosts, Body Slam will be worth it, while if Grounds aren't a problem, Thunder Wave is better option.
I generally run body slam if I'm using the max attack paraflinch variant, plus slowing down RPSF Landorus is nice. However I sometimes run sub cm with thunder and waterpulse in the rain. I only run t-wave if I really have no other answers on my team to venusaur or Rp terrakion.
I use T-Wave. Body Slam is as reliable as Hynomiss, and I like my guarantee paralysis.
Body Slam has always been better in my experience. Its much easier to spam as you don't need to worry about Ground-Types coming in and absorbing your attack. Ghost-Types are also much rarer, and common Ghost-Types like Gengar do not like taking an Iron Head. While Body Slam isn't guaranteed it still has a really high percentage for a secondary effect. Like other users have said, its all based on your team, but Body Slam is usually my goto move for Paralysis.
I personally prefer bodyslam. The chance to mess over poison heal gliscor with paralysis, or to slow down both forms of Lando is really useful. There is no need to worry about ground types coming in and ruining your fun, giving the momentum back to your opponent. Iron head hits Gengar hard, and because I tend to run firepunch on rachi as well the sub disable set isn't really that much of a bother. 60 per cent is a decent percentage to get paralysis, but is by no means perfect. But it all demands on the team so it can be situational. But for me body slam has been more consistent than thunder wave.
Ah Body Slam vs Thunder Wave. I've pondered this problem so many times. Generally, the things that Thunder Wave can't paralyze can threaten Jirachi out (Landorus[-T], Gliscor, Garchomp), so you wouldn't want to stay in and Body Slam them anyway. However, that's on paper. In an actual battle, Body Slam can be a lifesaver. These things can also switch into Jirachi as well, so that's a good opportunity to paralyze said ground types. Similarly, if you're forced to Body Slam in a certain scenario, like stopping a Rock Polish Landorus as it sets up, it can be millions of times better than Thunder Wave. Oh and Thunder Wave is just asking ground types to come in once they see your set. Garchomp, Landorus, Gliscor, Dugtrio, Mamoswine, and bulky grounds like Hippowdown, Gastrodon, and Donphan (that's every ground type in OU, by the way), can all come in on the Thunder Wave set extremely easily and without risk. However, of course, Body Slam is inconsistent and only paralyzes 60% of the time. Fun Fact: There's a 4.6% chance that you paralyze all 6 of your opponent's Pokemon with only 6 Body Slams. If your team depends on paralyzation, I'd probably go with Thunder Wave.
Actually, this makes me think about SDefRainRachi with Thunder. It has the negatives of both Thunder Wave (can't hit grounds) AND Body Slam (inconsistent) all to deal damage. Body Slam is less powerful, but it still hits grounds that can generally come in for free on SDefRainRachi. Why exactly should Thunder be used? It hits Tentacruel, Gyarados, Tornadus-T, Skarmory (thanks Baka Ki Eru Dogura for reminding me) and other bulky waters I suppose; but it still has both negatives. It also loses its 100% accuracy if Rain isn't up, which is even more inconsistent. Jirachi is also forced to use a -Spe nature so Thunder and Iron Head don't lose power. Is the damage output enough to justify using Thunder (on Defensive Jirachi)?
Thunder can hit Skarmory also..
but with Thunder Rachi should use a Sassy nature...
BSlam, Twave, Thunder... all of them have drawbacks, but have their advantages, it depends on the needs of the team i think
Don't forget that without Body Slam you can't paralyze Thundurus-T, which is a pretty big deal seeing as SpDef Jirachi is one of the closest things to a counter for it. You miss out on Ghost-types but you're not going to beat Jellicent anyway and you still beat Gengar so it's all good.
I use Thunder on Jirachi only when I'm using calm mind. It allows you to constantly boost your attacking prowess without giving up a slot for a seperate paralyzing move. I run 252hp/252def/4spdef Bold Jirachi with Sub, Cm, Thunder and water pulse. Aside from that Thunder is garbage, having both the negatives of the two options as said above.
Choice Scarf is the least of this metagame's worries.
Just wondering, what is a good physical attacker in ou? (other than scizor)
I suggest Loopy, that you learn how to effectively scout the sets and items of your opponents in order to avoid having an unexpected scarf set sprung on you. It's no big deal. The only thing about scarves is that the boost is so big it's almost suicide not to have one, they're an amazing way to cut a sweep short.
I understand that Choice Scarf makes for some frustrating situations, but the lack of Choice Scarf limits the answers to your common set up sweepers quite a lot. Choice item users are already limited by the fact they are locked in a single movement and can also let the opponent set up, they have to switch out often and get hazards damage for their trouble. The strategy has an important niche in the meta, and I hardly think just removing the item from the format would make it really better, it would just stick closer to the regular speed tiers.
The thing is that Choice Scarf limits setup sweepers TOO MUCH. It limits sweepers in general actually. We need to stick closer to the speed tier so that having a high base speed stat can actually matter again.
So I know that the general consensus is that Metagross is pretty shitty but I thought I'd bring him up because I've seen him on the ladder quite a bit today. He's actually Bern a bit of a hassle because of his typing and defensive stat spread. Often I'd be up against a fellow HO team and I think I can sweep with rock polish Terrakion, get a kill Metagross comes in at like 67% and lives, KOing me back with Meteor mash then sets up an agility. He isn't versatile or even good by any stretch of the imagination but it's a little vexing when he puts an end to your sweep with his great defences and huge attack. He's kind of a physically defensive Jirachi but with an offensive presence. I'm considering using him for a dual screen lead in place of Deoxys-D as a hazard setting lead.
Seriously, Azelf, one of the most prominent leads from gen 4, has fallen out of favor recently for reasons I can't imagine. If your team needs Stealth rock up + prevented, there's no one better. With a fast taunt, Rocks, and the often forgotten Magic Coat, Azelf consistently does work as a lead. He has Dual Screens too. If that's what you need, try this set:
@ Light Clay
Trait: Levitate Evs: 252 Hp / 4 Atk / 252 Spe Nature: Jolly
Light Screen | Reflect | Magic Coat / Stealth Rock | Explosion
Simple set, but it does what it needs to. Max Speed to Screen things before they can take you out, and the Screens because that's the point of the set. Magic Coat if you want to stop Hazards, Stealth Rock if you want your own. Explosion hits hard even nerfed and is good to not waste any of your Screens to go into a sweeper who doesn't want to take a hit. Try it
Azelf dropped hugely in popularity mainly because of Deoxys-D being brought down to OU from Uber in the transition to B/W, which I'd argue Deoxys-D is a much better and more consistent suicide lead that Azelf. Given how offensive the metagame is, Azelf is getting one move off before it dies with that set, maybe two if you're lucky. Deoxys-D on the other hand can get Stealth Rock up in literally 95% of matches, and the matches it doesn't is when your opponent changes their lead to something to specifically beat Deoxys-D, meaning you've got a good switch when Deoxys-D dies or you switch out. Main point I'm trying to make here is that Deoxys-D has the bulk to provide more than just Stealth Rock. Access to Spikes too make Deoxys much better as a suicide lead, as it just makes it that much easier for you to sweep with your supporting sweepers.
This bulk becomes so much more important when you really need to predict with that Azelf set. If you Magic Coat predicting a hazard and your opponent attacks, you're at risk of losing Azelf. If you don't Magic Coat as your opponent uses Stealth Rock, then you're opponent gets up Stealth Rock, something that a suicide lead should try to prevent. Deoxys-D not only gets Stealth Rock up in most situations, but also does a great job of preventing it, not to mention Deoxys-D can run offensive sets to beat spinners while still retaining good bulk. Honestly, I don't know why you've slashed Magic Coat over Stealth Rock. You'd be better replacing Explosion, especially given you're running mininal attack investment and not using Normal Gem either.
I haven't seen much of Azelf in this meta, mainly because it's really outclassed. Mew and Deoxys-D are much more consistent suicide leads thanks to their extra bulk, and that extra bulk really eases prediction as you don't have to compromise your defenses while posing some sort of offensive presence.
See the frailness of azelf is why I wanted to try out Metagross in place of Deoxys-D. Without the shitty typing of mono-psychic I could get up rocks, 1 or both screens and either die or explode. The speed and power of the metagame means you can't run fast and frail leads as well, you need something with the bulk to survive all the constant attacks and get everything up.
I will agree that the best metagross sets to use would be supportive, since steel is a poor offensive type. But metagross is weak to ground and fire and neutral to fighting and water, so it really doesn't pack resistances to common attacking types (except dragon).
Dual screens or stealth rock seems nice, but where does metsgross get a free turn to set that up? What does it force out?
Just thought of this though,
Maybe you could try trick-band set? Enough offensive power to really pose a threat, with trick as a team support move when you need it. Metagross gets trick right?
Metagross does get trick and can run it on a band set to both devastate and cripple opponents. The main draw would be Meteor mash possibly getting you an attack boost which is bigger than normal because choice items and boosts are multiplicative.
I recently tried out Leadgross with 252hp/252atk sr dual screens and normal gem explosion. It failed to set up against opponents with taunt however always secured q kill against said taunters. It's great at setting up rocks then screens then dying and bringing in a sweeper but it can't effectively stop other leads making it wasteful. So it's great if you're up against a team without a dedicated lead but pretty inconsistent against fellow leads because 4move slot syndrome + low speed. If it had sturdy as a dw ability maybe it would be slightly better with a custap berry but alas no such luck for the super computer.