Bye bye Latias! Bring in the apes...

[Hcapt]

@khz
Admittedly, I wrote several of those posts a little more tired than I should be. Although I think of shoddy as a pokemon simulator first;

From the shoddy battle website:
"Welcome to the Shoddy Battle web site!
Shoddy Battle is the most popular pokemon simulator, a program that allows you to play pokemon matches with other people over the internet. We are affiliated with Smogon and have a forum there for discussion of the program. Click here for more information about the program, or here for some (outdated) screenshots."

I do think that banning wobbuffet is such an alteration. However, when it comes to how to determine what should be banned, Wobbuffet is a perfect example. Wobbuffet is Uber. It can't be countered, and it guarentees a kill if not more. Everyone needed a wobbuffet to win I've heard. It was highly overcentralizing. And it was banned.

Now, it's also a perfect example of the danger of banning. We started with Wobbuffet, which was banned because it was clearly Uber. Then we moved onto Garchomp, which is not as clearly Uber. Now we are on Salamence, which may or may not be the best pokemon in OU. But it isn't nearly as Uber as garchomp, nor as overcentralizing. You are right to point out how banning even one pokemon outside of that criteria is damaging. If we use the battle tower criteria, at the very least we are consistent, and only fragment it into Uber and standard, as opposed to Uber, standard with Garchomp, standard without Garchomp, Free for all with explosion clause but no evasion clause, etc.

@Binary - a Psuedo-legendary team is not an Uber team, it's a standard team according to the games. Thus the problem with bans, you say Uber, I say no and find someone else who agrees and use that server/ruleset with them, pretty soon we're all fragmented. I've already seen it with Garchomp, which was much more bannable, and I'm sure there will be another drop-off if you get rid of Salamence.

And Garchomp is very popular on the sites I visit. They don't hold standard tournaments without Garchomp explicitly being allowed, even if they do participate in shoddy.

 

[3v3rnoob]

To keep these "fragmentations" and "exceptions" from occurring, we have a ban list that experienced players VOTE on whether or not to ban something. Based on their experience and the cases pleaded by other experienced players, each member of the council makes a decision. Because not everyone is going to agree on every decision, of course there is going to be some opposition to almost every decision. So what? That's called a Democracy. Trying to get every member of a community to agree universally on every decision is either impossible or inefficient. If that were even remotely feasible, everyone would have to be of a similar mindset. That would just be boring.

 

[Lee]

Hcapt - I assume you are aware that we have not banned Salamence; we are merely putting him up for testing to determine if he is uber or not; it is the competitive Pokemon community that will determine whether Salamence is uber or not and everyone, including you, can contribute to the decision. So whilst I appreciate the partially-intelligent discussion you're generating may I suggest that your efforts might be better spent obtaining voting rights?

As many have touched upon, it's legendary/psuedo-legendary/Battle Frontier-permitted or whatever other seemingly arbitrary in-game designation placed upon it has absolutely no influence on our decision. The decision is based upon the fact that, a long time ago and after much discussion, a set of guidelines were laid out that outlined a 'Portrait of an Uber.'

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43566

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Please see this thread - http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64977 - to see how these attributes relate directly to Salamence. (and I won't ask you to read the entire thread but you should know that there was a lot of respectable battlers chiming in with their agreement to the sentiments expressed in that thread).

If you've read that, I'm sure that even you would find it difficult to argue against the fact that Salamence is worthy of 'at least a test.'

Oh, and if you do want to continue this, could you please move it over to the 'The First Smogon Council - Salamence' thread stickied at the top of this forum because this thread really isn't the place for it. Cheers.

 

[akarias]

Yeah and for #1, you notice EVERY team in the archive that tries using a sally sweep uses magnezone, along with scizor BP bait (but can't be uturn bait). That's hardly common battle conditions. Why? Because scizor can come in on 3/4 of sally's moves and ko him after LO recoil. And scizor IS a common battle condition. The site you mentioned keeps talking about outrage, outrage. Well since it LOCKS YOU INTO A MOVE, if you have scizor or a scarf ice attack, killing 1 poke is not a "significant portion of the team".

#3, Mixmence, because of scizor, SR, and vaporeon, can rarely KO more than 2 pokes unless those 2 are removed, mixed or not. My metagross can consistely do the same thing. As can my mixape. As can my breloom. Sure this means you need a mixmence counter, but I need a mixape counter too. You could say starmie and tentacruel are counters, but starmie takes ~45% from CC, same as steels from dracometeor, and tentacruel is never seen, while steels are always present.

Latias and garchomp are in a completely different league compared to salamence. I honestly think jirachi, with an SR resistance, toxic immunity, 600 BST, and an even bigger movepool, absolutely destroys salamence in the support characteristic. Calm mind jirachi sweeps pretty much as much as ddmence too. I've read the thread, and a lot of it is based on latias being there to counter infernape. What's the argument

 

[Articanus]

If we're talking about sweeping, don't you mean the offensive characteristic? I also think there should be a "luck" characteristic so that we can go ahead and ban Jirachi/ Machamp/ Togekiss, but whatever. =P

I think you're overlooking what it means to always lose a member: sure, you can predict around mence, but the point is that you are still going to lose something to it. By losing 1/6th of your team you may have just lost something that you needed to handle something on the other player's team, allowing them to sweep. And you can't really say "don't let it set up", because if we use Scizor like you mentioned to beat mence then really we open ourselves to letting something like Lucario get an SD, Infernape get a Nasty Plot, or even things like Heatran get a Substitute.

One member and then the ability to set up for free afterwards is just too much power for one pokemon to have. While I originally thought Mence was OU, playing on both of the ladders is slowly pushing me the other direction....

 

[ThirteenOfTwo]

So you can Ice Beam and OHKO? I think that's what you meant to say.

Yeah, sorry. That post was kind of unclear. The jist: The only way to stop Mence is to switch in a Cress as soon as you see it and OHKO with Ice Beam. Otherwise you are guaranteed to lose at least one Poke to the big dragon. As in "dead", not as in "sleeping" like what happens with Breloom.

Jirachi is not Uber, despite its possession of that really annoying set. It just doesn't have the offensive power to make it through steels like Magnezone and Skarmory. Also, to whoever bashed Togekiss, Rachi usage does not make Togekiss obsolete. Kiss gets Encore, which makes it annoying as hell. It actually works best with the ParaFlinch Rachi, because Rachi draws Earthquakes which Kiss can switch in on and Encore.

Whoever brought up Breloom, Breloom is not Uber. Annoying, but not Uber. The issue is that any Phazers, Taunters, or Encorers stop its entire set. Breloom is dangerous, but it's about as qualified to be Uber as Ninjask.

Dragonite is not a replacement for Mence. Despite Extremespeed, it's too slow to do effective damage to the quicker Steel-Types such as Lucario. Dragonite is probably the Pseudo-Legendary in the LEAST danger of being banned this generation.

 

[mtr]

Yeah and for #1, you notice EVERY team in the archive that tries using a sally sweep uses magnezone, along with scizor BP bait (but can't be uturn bait). That's hardly common battle conditions. Why? Because scizor can come in on 3/4 of sally's moves and ko him after LO recoil. And scizor IS a common battle condition. The site you mentioned keeps talking about outrage, outrage. Well since it LOCKS YOU INTO A MOVE, if you have scizor or a scarf ice attack, killing 1 poke is not a "significant portion of the team".

First of all, Scizor can't come in on Salamence directly and kill it unless it DM's first and takes chunks outta Scizor, it needs the LO recoil.

But anyways, CB Scizor is a common battle condition. That also means that any competent Salamence player will be able to take advantage of the incoming Bullet Punch, via something like SubTran or AgiliPoleon or whatever. This means that Salamence can, alongside killing a Pokemon, reliably make it easier for another Pokemon to sweep by giving them a free turn, which fits the support characteristic.

 

[Salem1]

Dragonite is not a replacement for Mence. Despite Extremespeed, it's too slow to do effective damage to the quicker Steel-Types such as Lucario. Dragonite is probably the Pseudo-Legendary in the LEAST danger of being banned this generation.

It's also too slow to effectively run a mixed set the same way Mence can. Dragonite functions as a wallbreaker but not a mixed sweeper. So yeah, people who replace Mence with Nite are just misguided.

 

[3v3rnoob]

Are you kidding? I think that Dragonite can run on par with Mence as far as sweeping ability, albeit requiring more actual skill from the player. When I used nite, by running the lum berry, I was able to get a DD up and then score as many kills as I did with mence by using Nite's considerably better move pool, for instance fire punch aqua tail and outrage (hitting the entire meta for at least neutral, plus the boost from the dragon dance).

On occasion as soon as people see the Nite, they try to paralyze it, thinking that I'm running life orb. They soon get swept because they realize too late that two DDs is more potent than a single DD and a Life orb.

That's not to say that Dragonite can simply replace mence. I said it can be as EFFECTIVE as mence, but not necessarily do the EXACT same job. Just clarifying that before someone comments on it.

 

[akarias]

Scizor can come in on draco meteor, earthquake, and outrage, and force it out. During which time salamence eats 60% damage upon next switching in (2x SR+LO). 72% if there's sandstorm. And even IF sally dd's during the switch, in order to kill scizor it needs to attack, which will kill itself in the process. During which you lost your free turn of set up and a sweeper just to kill 1 revenge killer.

And for saying you can get scizor to BP to set up your next guy, that's like saying my SDluke can force out heatran's fire blast so my gyarados can set up. UBER. All revenge killers can be set up on, that's just how this game works.

 

[mtr]

The difference is that SDLuke has a litany of reliable counters, whereas Salamence has no counters, only (frequently choiced) checks, many of whom fail to check other Salamence sets.

SD Luke is checked or countered by:

Gliscor, Hippowdon, Jirachi, Gyarados, Salamence, Zapdos, Gengar, etc.

I didn't even use any Choice users.

Many of these sets are valid for other Lucario sets, such as SpecsLuke as well.

 

[Ice-eyes]

How many teams carry a Sand Streamer? How often is that revealed before Mence? Yes, Sandstorm is around, but TTar's usage is set to drop considerably and Hippowdon's has been pretty low for some time. At 65%, Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch isn't going to take Mence down guaranteed, and it's a huge risk to switch Scizor directly into Mence anyway - if they Fire Blast on the switch, there goes your way of taking it out safely.

Therefore, the only way to 'reliably' deal with Mence without completely disrupting your team is to lock yourself into a Steel-type move. It doesn't even need to switch out - the amount of stuff that can set up on a Bullet Punch is huge, and enough threatening sweepers can do so that it's easily worth sacking Mence. Oh, and that's not to mention that, if Mence isn't carrying Life Orb, your Scizor is never going to be able to take it down and it's going to take out 2-3 pokes on your team.

I think the main thing is that, bar huge gimmick sets, stuff like Lucario is never going to beat common switch-ins like Gyarados. The best option for switching into both common Mence variants is Cresselia - how far down the ladder is that? And still slightly gimmicky sets like bulky Roosting Mences are going to laugh in the face of weak Ice Beams.

 

[akarias]

Stone edge is not rare on lucario....and beats all gyarados with SR down.

Mence without life orb is walled completely by bulky waters. That's why virtually every single one you see carries it. Lol at taking down 2-3 members of the team without +30% dmg...

Ttar is the second most used pokemon, you're going to face it 1/5 battles.

If there were better rapid spinners or if stealth rock wasn't so ubiquitous maybe salamence would warrant testing, but the fact that it has difficulty switching into attacks besides earthquake, unlike latias and garchomp who can reliably wall the attacks they resist and more, make him balanced enough for OU.

I mean, why do you think almost all salamence carry life orb, compared to gyarados, who carries lefties a vast majority of the time? Do you think gyarados doesn't appreciate the extra damage? No. It's because gyarados is not so easily revenge killed so it can switch in multiple times.

Besides, you guys keep using luke for an example, even though he's not similar to salamence at all. I bring up infernape and jirachi and no one has said why salamence is so much over the top compared to infernape and jirachi who along with highly effective wallbreaking and sweeping sets can actually use choice items since they don't take 25% a switch in. And we haven't even touched upon subpainsplit gengar...who reliably lures and beats blissey and scizor, is able to switch in more because of its extra 2 immunities (fighting being the most important), and also as perfect type coverage with moves that don't lock him into place.

 

[Airfoil]

If Breloom gets a Sub up, it becomes an endless loop of re-sporing you whenever you switch to a counter, and nobody is going to ban him.

 

[3v3rnoob]

If Breloom gets a Sub up, it becomes an endless loop of re-sporing you whenever you switch to a counter, and nobody is going to ban him.

THANK YOU! That's why I think that at the very least the combination of sub, spore, and toxic orb should be banned. But meh, can't have everything.

And yes, many many many teams carry Tyranitar. They just do. Especially after you get abou 1300 CRE +.

 

[JonTheRed]

If Breloom gets a Sub up, it becomes an endless loop of re-sporing you whenever you switch to a counter, and nobody is going to ban him.

Breloom already has one of the lowest BSTs in OU, balanced only by decent typing, the right moves for the job, and great ability. SubSpore works well, but Sleep Clause prevents it from being the gamebreaker you make it sound like. Hell, things like Breloom are the reason Sleep Clause exists. He's easily beaten by his low speed and so-so defenses, unlike Latias or Salamence; I don't see him going Uber.

 

[Airfoil]

Breloom already has one of the lowest BSTs in OU, balanced only by decent typing, the right moves for the job, and great ability. SubSpore works well, but Sleep Clause prevents it from being the gamebreaker you make it sound like. Hell, things like Breloom are the reason Sleep Clause exists. He's easily beaten by his low speed and so-so defenses, unlike Latias or Salamence; I don't see him going Uber.

BST doesn't really matter since he doesn't use his Sp Attack and Defenses. Mence has a high BST, but his HP/Defense/SpDefense can be removed seeing he isn't used Bulky too often, significantly lowering it. The point is he can't be countered easily once he sets up, guaranteeing a KO, yet he isn't going Uber.

Another thing I'm worried about is Latias was just banned, and many changes are being made to accommodate that. Many people are blaming the idea of Salamence being banned for the shift in the metagame, where most of the changes are more related to Latias than Salamence.

 

[kokoloko]

Another thing I'm worried about is Latias was just banned, and many changes are being made to accommodate that. Many people are blaming the idea of Salamence being banned for the shift in the metagame, where most of the changes are more related to Latias than Salamence.

Not really, you can still use Salamence in the regular ladder for at least another month. Besides, does it really matter?

 

[JonTheRed]

BST doesn't really matter since he doesn't use his Sp Attack and Defenses. Mence has a high BST, but his HP/Defense/SpDefense can be removed seeing he isn't used Bulky too often, significantly lowering it. The point is he can't be countered easily once he sets up, guaranteeing a KO, yet he isn't going Uber.

Oh man, you make Breloom sound like Garchomp. Of course he's hard to stop once he sets up; that's the entire point of setting up. Salamence is such a problem because it has base 130 Attack, base 110 Special Attack, and base 100 Speed before it's even done anything; after Breloom has done all of its setting up, one of your Pokemon is asleep, and he might be behind a Substitute. The main thing, though, is that when you see Breloom, you know what's going to happen since its high Attack, Spore, and Poison Heal are about all it has going for it (although Spore is probably one of the best moves in the game, that I will give you).

 

[Banryu]

What?! D: You guys banned Lati!? Gahhhh... noooo... =___= My Aggron team is ruined.

 

[Airfoil]

Not really, you can still use Salamence in the regular ladder for at least another month. Besides, does it really matter?

Yes but many people are testing Salamence's banning on teams that are heavily affected by Latias' banning, assuming it's Salamence's doing. So some of the testing is bound to be inaccurate.

 

[kokoloko]

Yes but many people are testing Salamence's banning on teams that are heavily affected by Latias' banning, assuming it's Salamence's doing. So some of the testing is bound to be inaccurate.

So then we take the results of the suspect ladder and compare them to the regular ladder. That way we can tell which pokemon did what. On top of that, it doesn't matter that the results get mixed because Latias is gone regardless of what happens. The suspect ladder is meant to test the metagame as it would be without Salamence, which it is doing. It doesn't matter how long Latias is gone, it would all boil down to the same metagame. Worrying about which pokemon caused what is pointless since it wouldn't affect the results.

 

[MissGreen]

If you guys want to discuss Salamence, then do it in the Salamence thread. This is the Infernape and Latias thread.

Breloom is quite easy to beat, but you really are forced to sacrifice a Pokemon to sleep.

 

[ThirteenOfTwo]

THANK YOU! That's why I think that at the very least the combination of sub, spore, and toxic orb should be banned. But meh, can't have everything.

And yes, many many many teams carry Tyranitar. They just do. Especially after you get abou 1300 CRE +.

Breloom's just not good enough to warrant a ban. Take it from someone who's used one: All it takes is one Taunt (from something carrying a move not named Earthquake), or one Encore, and it's instantly forced out. Something with a Lum Berry and base speed over 70 with speed EVs takes it out. Something faster than it with Sub is a guaranteed revenge kill. Hell, all it takes is an opponent who's willing to let you put something to sleep and switch it out and has something that can OHKO Breloom (read: any Ice, Psychic, Flying or Fire move) or even just Whirlwind it and you're gone. Breloom isn't as broken as people think; it's just that it requires a different method of planning and thought in order to beat.

And with regards to your earlier post, I agree that DNite can be as effective as Mence, but I also agree that it will never be a replacement for it and is in no danger of a ban.

 

[Airfoil]

Breloom is quite easy to beat, but you really are forced to sacrifice a Pokemon to sleep.

Mence is the same way. It can be revenge killed, but obviously, that requires a sacrifice. That Guaranteed KO the main reason people want to send him to uber. You know what set it's running depending on the attack used, and can be revenge killed.

I don't think there is a thread like this for Mence. There is one where you post the results of play testing, but not this.

Breloom's just not good enough to warrant a ban. Take it from someone who's used one: All it takes is one Taunt (from something carrying a move not named Earthquake), or one Encore, and it's instantly forced out. Something with a Lum Berry and base speed over 70 with speed EVs takes it out. Something faster than it with Sub is a guaranteed revenge kill. Hell, all it takes is an opponent who's willing to let you put something to sleep and switch it out and has something that can OHKO Breloom (read: any Ice, Psychic, Flying or Fire move) or even just Whirlwind it and you're gone. Breloom isn't as broken as people think; it's just that it requires a different method of planning and thought in order to beat.

And if Breloom is behind a sub, then what? What you just said applies to Mence as well. It can be KOd, but requires a different method from the norm. And apparently, no one is willing to stray from the norm, which is why everyone wants him and DNite banned. Because they require using Pokemon besides the standard Pert, Scizor, etc. is why nobody wants them around.