Well, nothing really replaces Latias on a team, the team just changes to a completely new team.
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Bye bye Latias! Bring in the apes...
- Thread starter firecape
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Ice-eyes
Simper Fi
I think Starmie is the best like-for-like replacement - it has a very similar spread of resistances as well as the high speed and good coverage that made Latias so good. However, it doesn't hit quite as hard, doesn't have that excellent Dragon STAB, lacks Levitate and, crucially, has nowhere near as much bulk.
The loss of Scarf Latias isn't going to damage teams too much or affect the viability of certain sweepers - Starmie fills that role equally effectively.
The loss of Scarf Latias isn't going to damage teams too much or affect the viability of certain sweepers - Starmie fills that role equally effectively.
I must say, when i first heard of the possibility of Latias being banned, I was skeptical and heavily in favour of an OU vote- i just didn't understand why it was Ubers when #1 AND #2 seeds both were excellent counters. But now I realize that they were #1 and #2 BECAUSE they countered Latias and that the metagame was heavily centralzied around her.
And that's the reason why banning will help alot in metagames creativity It always happens with major bans. Someone remember what happened after Garchomp ban ? There was time were Nidoqueen started to be popular because she was almost perfect Lucario (and more popular back then) Heracross counter. Also stuff like Salamence and Flygon started to show up. It helped alot in finding new pokemon to use and make metagame more interesting. Here we'll have similar situation.
NPApe is dangerous, but as you said counterable. And heck, some of Apes counters are in... UU. Thick Fat Grumpig & Hariyama and Slowking are examples of this and they may provide you with little unique niche. You just need to lurk more if something is gone. I remember I used in one the stall teams before Latias era specially defensive Dusknoir and it worked really fine being good rapid spin blocker for Starmie and it was my really good Infernape check, as it couldn't OHKO me back and I would do it in return. Cresselia, Mesprit and Uxie may still do the same if EVed right. Vaporeon survives every nasty plotted hit from Infernape except Focus Blast. Situation is identical with Lanturn, which is really light, so it laughs on NP Grass Knot and Lanturn is perfect Starmie check, which may rise now alot after Latias ban. Bulky waters and Ape check in one ? Yes please. ANother interesting example is Dragonite, which check standard NPApe.
About Tentacruel - if you face this SDApe... so what ? Swampert is part of stall teams and he checks SDApe really well. I may say the same about Hippowdon, Donphan, Slowbro (yes, it survives SD Life Orb ThunderPunch), Suicune also survives SD ThunderPunch from SDApe and even... Thick Fat Hariyama (again, but this time physically bulky). And rarely SDApes carry Mach Punch, so ScarfTar may still check it to some extent. Or ScarfRachi with Zen Heabutt or ScarfTran with Earth Power (and I used both on my semi-stall or stall teams). Really, there was time when NPApe and/or SDApe were free from Latias and metagame somehow easily dealt with them. Infernape usage will go up, but it won't change much and stall teams still have their ways to deal with out fire monkey. And Infernape is quit frail, so Infernape users have few problems before using Apes power to maximum.
And why I mention those UU/NU pokemon ? Because they weren't viable before, but NOW they may be. Just to say Hariyama again and not to make it outclassed by Machamp ? Hariyama is perfect Tyranitar counter and unlike Machamp Hariyama may handle Infernape thanks to fire resistance. Heck, Hariyama may check Scizor (if you carry Fire Punch) and take those CB U-Turns all day long with Wish support. And unlike Machamp Hariyama may phaze thanks to Whirlwind. Now I seriously consider Hariyama for stall team as earlier I would hate to use it because it gives Latias free switch. We know how dangerous it was.
And yes, I'm happy with Latias ban as it gives back this creativity which metagames missed after her OU entrance. Also her unpredictibility forced me to some serious specializations, making it just less enjoyable. I honestly don't think that Latias was unstoppable, however it was extremely hard to do it if someone used her right.
I played and yes, you're right that they weren't used. But it doesn't mean you can't use them and still use them in COMPETITIVE way. Sometimes you just need to lurk more to discover something interesting. It took a while for example for Smeargle to be OU and I may the same thing about Tentacruel, which at early D/P was almost non-existant. Maybe my Hariyama mention will help it, as it is much better pokemon then people think.
Man all this theronymon about other pokemon being viable (UUs) makes me think that some ppl haven't played pre-OU-Latias era, I did (though honestly not much) and no actual UU was used back then to counter Ape, just your average Tentacruel/Gyarados/Vaporeon (this one is a little unreliable now because of the "discovered viability" of focus blast) and that was pretty much it.
All in all, Scizors go down a little (not much but some because of the Gyara rise), TTars too by a larger margin, Salamences, Gyarados, Tentacruels and Vaporeons go up IMO.
Oh and Zapdos comes back and obiously, a lot of Apes for the initial "hype" (like the damn thing didn't existed before...) but then it just becomes early-plat OU with everyone claiming for Salamence's head.
All in all, Scizors go down a little (not much but some because of the Gyara rise), TTars too by a larger margin, Salamences, Gyarados, Tentacruels and Vaporeons go up IMO.
Oh and Zapdos comes back and obiously, a lot of Apes for the initial "hype" (like the damn thing didn't existed before...) but then it just becomes early-plat OU with everyone claiming for Salamence's head.
WECAMEASROMANS
Banned deucer.
Banning Latias will make room for a much more fun, diverse metagame. It will be like right after the Garchomp ban amd before Latias became OU, DPPt was truly fun to play during that period. enough of this dragon/steel and scarftar bullshit.
Oh and btw, Infernape will NOT be broken. It will have its fair checks, but stall teams still need to be prepared. (especially mine since i use a sub/toxic/roost set for latias on my stall team)
Oh and btw, Infernape will NOT be broken. It will have its fair checks, but stall teams still need to be prepared. (especially mine since i use a sub/toxic/roost set for latias on my stall team)
Agreeing with Lucas. Vappy takes on Traditional MixApe, while those with Focus Blast have a hard time with Tenta (honestly, CC versions with more attack investment are what people should use).
Stall teams can use Gyara, Tenta, or even Milotic (yes, it does have its uses).
I expect offensive teams to return to that Heatran/Zapdos/Bulky Water core that seemed so prominent...Suicune or Starmie filling in the last slot.
Speaking of Starmie, it can prove really useful should that be the case. Ice Beam can really put the hurt on Zapdos along with SR, while it gets Thunderbolt and Hydro Pump for the other two. And the Infernape spike could lead to a reasonable Blissey/Lax decline, which makes it all the more easy for it to sweep.
Stall teams can use Gyara, Tenta, or even Milotic (yes, it does have its uses).
I expect offensive teams to return to that Heatran/Zapdos/Bulky Water core that seemed so prominent...Suicune or Starmie filling in the last slot.
Speaking of Starmie, it can prove really useful should that be the case. Ice Beam can really put the hurt on Zapdos along with SR, while it gets Thunderbolt and Hydro Pump for the other two. And the Infernape spike could lead to a reasonable Blissey/Lax decline, which makes it all the more easy for it to sweep.
I also expect Raikou to get some glory. Now that one of the faster special walls has gone to ubers, and with the new moves it'll be getting, it'll be a force to be reckoned with in the new metagame. Considering that it's faster than Mence and Ttar (even after a speed boost), will be getting aura sphere, and with 115 speed and a decent spatk stat, it'll be taken' names.
^Probably has more to do with Aura Sphere than the loss of Latias, tbh. Though word on the street is that Raikou will be Rash. While it is still able to outrun +speed base 100s by a single point, it won't like being slower than Gengar, Infernape, or even Starmie, especially with its lower special defense. Scarftar can come in on anything bar a predicted Aura Sphere, and there's always Blissey.
Raikou will improve, definitely, but it still has its fair share of obstacles, especially if it faces competition from the bulkier Zapdos (who should rise thanks to the lack of Latias).
Raikou will improve, definitely, but it still has its fair share of obstacles, especially if it faces competition from the bulkier Zapdos (who should rise thanks to the lack of Latias).
I can definitely see it functioning in OU, but to what extent I guess we will have to wait and see.
And scarftar can check Zapdos, yes...but only so many times. Timid LO Dos is doing around 37% with Thunderbolt/HP Grass, minimum, and isn't afraid to switch out of Pursuit or the like thanks to Roost.
It combines bulk and power similarly to Latias, the difference being it trades off Fire/Water/Electric resists for a Steel resist and neutrality to Ghost/Pursuit. I think it can do well, especially with something that can deal with ScarfTar waiting in the wings (Lucario would love to come in on anything but predicted EQ...).
And scarftar can check Zapdos, yes...but only so many times. Timid LO Dos is doing around 37% with Thunderbolt/HP Grass, minimum, and isn't afraid to switch out of Pursuit or the like thanks to Roost.
It combines bulk and power similarly to Latias, the difference being it trades off Fire/Water/Electric resists for a Steel resist and neutrality to Ghost/Pursuit. I think it can do well, especially with something that can deal with ScarfTar waiting in the wings (Lucario would love to come in on anything but predicted EQ...).
Way I see it is without Latias as a reliable scarfed revenge killer, something is going to have to take its place. That something is most likely Jirachi. And Scizor since Jirachi isn't 100% capable of checking mence. Jirachi and Scizor up? MAGNEZONE =).
Disclaimer: Keep in mind that the following post is not fact, and is all just my opinion and thoughts on the matter.
If it ain't broke don't fix it.
I think that the tiers were fine the way they were before, and Latias was fine in OU. I never really used Latias, nor did I find her to be particularly useful to any of my teams (keep in mind this just for me, I know that Latias was extremely effective and an amazing special attacker). It's just how much the metagame will change without her. Tyranitar usage will drop, Infernape usage will (most likely) go up...and it all seems rather pointless to me, I mean why was she even on the suspect list on the first place? I mean she wasn't dominating the metagame or anything (I'm looking at you Garchomp.)
Anyways I'm not too upset by this, but I do believe that the move was rather pointless.
If it ain't broke don't fix it.
I think that the tiers were fine the way they were before, and Latias was fine in OU. I never really used Latias, nor did I find her to be particularly useful to any of my teams (keep in mind this just for me, I know that Latias was extremely effective and an amazing special attacker). It's just how much the metagame will change without her. Tyranitar usage will drop, Infernape usage will (most likely) go up...and it all seems rather pointless to me, I mean why was she even on the suspect list on the first place? I mean she wasn't dominating the metagame or anything (I'm looking at you Garchomp.)
Anyways I'm not too upset by this, but I do believe that the move was rather pointless.
I expect Magnezone to actually go down. Lucario was a good partner with Latias, and was checked to some extent by Magnezone. Metagross was sometimes used as a Latias counter, and if it were locked into Pursuit or a Steel move, Magnezone could trap and KO it. Scizor and Jirachi were both commonly used as Latias checks and were both handled by Magnezone. Specially defensive Skarmory was switched into Latias sometimes. And all these Steel types made good partners with Latias due to them and Latias covering each others' weaknesses. So Steel types overall will decrease, leading to Magnezone going down.
It's no surprise that Heatran will rise due to the loss of its most important counter, but its rise will not be as large as some are predicting. While Heatran was countered by Latias in the past, the loss of Latias will bring up Salamence and Gyarados, two Pokemon that also counter Heatran. Heatran also has to deal with Infernape switching in on Choiced Fire moves.
Rapid Spinners such as Tentacruel and Starmie will increase to fill Latias's roles, and this in turn will cause an increase in Ghost types. Ghosts also have fewer Choiced Pursuiters to worry about, and are immune to one of Infernape's STABs. Spiritomb and Dusknoir might even make a comeback to deal with Starmie and Infernape respectively.
It's no surprise that Heatran will rise due to the loss of its most important counter, but its rise will not be as large as some are predicting. While Heatran was countered by Latias in the past, the loss of Latias will bring up Salamence and Gyarados, two Pokemon that also counter Heatran. Heatran also has to deal with Infernape switching in on Choiced Fire moves.
Rapid Spinners such as Tentacruel and Starmie will increase to fill Latias's roles, and this in turn will cause an increase in Ghost types. Ghosts also have fewer Choiced Pursuiters to worry about, and are immune to one of Infernape's STABs. Spiritomb and Dusknoir might even make a comeback to deal with Starmie and Infernape respectively.
By this logic Latias should never have come down to OU. The metagame was fine, even relatively stable, before her fall into the OU tier.
While everyone is theorizing how MixApe will return, I see a rise in stall teams on the horizon. Without the damned TrickSpecs Latias ruining everything stall could throw at it, pokemon like Blissey will finally be able to wall effectively. Infernape is no issue for stall teams and will remain pretty level in usage as people overreact and throw Tentacruel and Starmie onto every team.
Standard Spiritomb (252/116 Calm) is 2HKOd by LO Starmie's Hydro Pump, regardless of Stealth Rock, though it ensures that Starmie 2HKOs even max/max Calm Spiritomb. In other words, it has to tread carefully against the Sea Star.
Dusknoir, however, I think could make a comback to counter those two. Rotom-A can't deal with the two unless it holds a Scarf, while Dusk can run a defensive set and deal with the two semi-comfortably.
Dusknoir, however, I think could make a comback to counter those two. Rotom-A can't deal with the two unless it holds a Scarf, while Dusk can run a defensive set and deal with the two semi-comfortably.
It seems that many people don't realize that Latias was perhaps the centerpiece of the previous Metagame. Tyranitar is the #2 pokemon solely because of Latias. Scizor may have very well held onto his #1 spot because influences on the Metagame by Latias. I think the Metagame will have to re-stabilize. Of course, Infernape will rise, Tyranitar will drop, and Salamence will retake the #2 spot. Mence may even take the #1 spot, considering the fact that the heavy burden of stopping Latias was lifted off of Scizor's shoulders and one more of Mence's most common checks is removed. It seems that Mence my be up for grabs by Uber's next. Gyarados, Dragonite, Starmie, Jolteon and Heatran will also see increases in usage.
Latias was capable of stopping Skarm/Bliss/[Insert Wall Here]. I think stall will see a nice increase in usage as well.
I personally think the tiers were fine as they were.
Latias was capable of stopping Skarm/Bliss/[Insert Wall Here]. I think stall will see a nice increase in usage as well.
I personally think the tiers were fine as they were.
