This guy has seven posts to his name and yet one of them puts things way better than anyone else has. Speed is the reason why Lucario doesn't run a mixed set, why people are willing to lock themselves into a single move with a Choice Scarf, and why Salamence's base 100 speed is overwhelming combined with base 135 Attack and 110 Special Attack. And it's not like 95/80/80 is a terrible defensive spread, either.
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Bye bye Latias! Bring in the apes...
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=]. I have been playing Pokemon for years, I just never post on the forums xD. All of this is screaming for me to post however. xD
Skymin also has to deal with a stealth rock weakness, frailty, and a 4x weakness to ice attacks. I'm not saying Jirachi is broken (or even Skymin for that matter), but don't try to pass it off as if Jirachi doesn't have distinct advantages over him either.
I think you guys are missing 1 significant point.
Salamence is not a legendary pokemon.
While legendary pokemon are shifted up and down the tier list at will, non-legendary pokemon must be much more decentralizing than legendary pokemon to even be considered for Uber. There are 3 non-legendary pokemon in Uber, Wobbuffet because it's a guarenteed kill with no counters that can make a match stall for over 100 turns, Wynaut, which I never quite understood, and Garchomp, which previously in suspect literally ran on 70% of teams and was the most popular pokemon in OU for over a year before a ban.
Uber was created specifically for legendaries in the wake of Mewtwo, with all non-legendary pokemon placed their only as a last resort, where it becomes a "use or lose" situation. Unless Salamence is at the very top of the usage list, it shouldn't even be considered for uber, as the entire point of standard is to be able to use pokemon like Salamence. Whether or not it has counters remains a non-issue for all non-legendaries unless the situation becomes so bad that Salamence is the number one used pokemon and makes any team lacking a salamance unviable.
You can not remove a pokemon simply because it has no counters if it's not legendary - it must also destroy the metagame as badly as Garchomp and Wobbuffet, and no less. Otherwise, we lose the purpose of creating OU in the first place, which is to be able to use competitively pokemon that don't have base 680 stats.
Salamence is not a legendary pokemon.
While legendary pokemon are shifted up and down the tier list at will, non-legendary pokemon must be much more decentralizing than legendary pokemon to even be considered for Uber. There are 3 non-legendary pokemon in Uber, Wobbuffet because it's a guarenteed kill with no counters that can make a match stall for over 100 turns, Wynaut, which I never quite understood, and Garchomp, which previously in suspect literally ran on 70% of teams and was the most popular pokemon in OU for over a year before a ban.
Uber was created specifically for legendaries in the wake of Mewtwo, with all non-legendary pokemon placed their only as a last resort, where it becomes a "use or lose" situation. Unless Salamence is at the very top of the usage list, it shouldn't even be considered for uber, as the entire point of standard is to be able to use pokemon like Salamence. Whether or not it has counters remains a non-issue for all non-legendaries unless the situation becomes so bad that Salamence is the number one used pokemon and makes any team lacking a salamance unviable.
You can not remove a pokemon simply because it has no counters if it's not legendary - it must also destroy the metagame as badly as Garchomp and Wobbuffet, and no less. Otherwise, we lose the purpose of creating OU in the first place, which is to be able to use competitively pokemon that don't have base 680 stats.
Whether a Pokemon is 'legendary' or not has literally nothing to do with its tier.
@ Quaily - Ubers was created for a completely different reason than standard tier, which encompasses NU, UU, and OU. Articuno is NU because it isn't very usable/popular. Regular Deoxys, which was 43 place with 1.22% usage last January, remains Uber because in spite of it being unpopular in Uber, it is in the class of pokemon that includes Kyogre and Mewtwo. Deoxys may be moved down if we deem it acceptable for OU. But they are inherently Uber from creation, and thus only move down at our discretion. Latias is in this class of Uber at first, perhaps OU later.
Salamence was always, from the start, 100% OU, as well as Garchomp and Wobbuffet. Wobbuffet destroyed the metagame through it's abilities, and it was moved. Garchomp had the usage lead on every pokemon in OU that Scizor currently has, and was moved to Uber only with a tremendous amount of hesitation. Salamence is not anything like Garchomp yet. It is not the most used standard yet, in that it is not nearly as prevalent as Scizor. It is about as utilized as Tyranitar and Heatran, and is significanlty below Scizor. Salamence is even a Scizor counter, which means that in spite of countering the number one most used pokemon, not enough teams are able to utilize it such that it dominates the metagame.
We did not ban Garchomp lightly because Garchomp was created an OU non-legendary pokemon, which is our line for determining what Standard is. In fact, Garchomp still has many fans that do not consider the Garchomp ban justified in spite of it's overcentralizing nature because Garchomp is not a legendary pokemon that breaks the 600 net stat rule, and thus Garchomp is classified by many with the other OU pokemon. Garchomp is often legal in tournaments where all legendaries are banned (specifically, some of the Nintendo sponsored ones, such as the one that was held for pokemon battle revolution), and it is legal in the in-game battle frontier, which explicitly lists banned Ubers. It is only because the Garchomp situation led to even higher Garchomp usage than the current Scizor usage that Garchomp was banned.
If the psuedo-legends were banned to Ubers (Garchomp + Tyranitar, Salamence, Dragonite, Metagross), then we subvert the intention of Standard tier, which is not to maintain balance, but to keep Kyogre and the 680+ stat pokemon away from the battles in which we test our skills by using psuedo-legends. If you want to restrict certain pokemon, vote to expand UU to include all Standards that are not Salamence, Grachomp, Scizor, Tyranitar, and Wobbuffet, but standard tier was built for Salamences and Tyranitar users to have a place to show off. Heck, smogon loses it's function as a pokemon battle simulator completely should you ban too many Standard tier pokemon from OU; smogon is the testing grounds for the standard teams we make in game. And in game standard does include Wobbuffet and Garchomp, in addition to sSlamence, whether they are balanced or not.
Salamence was always, from the start, 100% OU, as well as Garchomp and Wobbuffet. Wobbuffet destroyed the metagame through it's abilities, and it was moved. Garchomp had the usage lead on every pokemon in OU that Scizor currently has, and was moved to Uber only with a tremendous amount of hesitation. Salamence is not anything like Garchomp yet. It is not the most used standard yet, in that it is not nearly as prevalent as Scizor. It is about as utilized as Tyranitar and Heatran, and is significanlty below Scizor. Salamence is even a Scizor counter, which means that in spite of countering the number one most used pokemon, not enough teams are able to utilize it such that it dominates the metagame.
We did not ban Garchomp lightly because Garchomp was created an OU non-legendary pokemon, which is our line for determining what Standard is. In fact, Garchomp still has many fans that do not consider the Garchomp ban justified in spite of it's overcentralizing nature because Garchomp is not a legendary pokemon that breaks the 600 net stat rule, and thus Garchomp is classified by many with the other OU pokemon. Garchomp is often legal in tournaments where all legendaries are banned (specifically, some of the Nintendo sponsored ones, such as the one that was held for pokemon battle revolution), and it is legal in the in-game battle frontier, which explicitly lists banned Ubers. It is only because the Garchomp situation led to even higher Garchomp usage than the current Scizor usage that Garchomp was banned.
If the psuedo-legends were banned to Ubers (Garchomp + Tyranitar, Salamence, Dragonite, Metagross), then we subvert the intention of Standard tier, which is not to maintain balance, but to keep Kyogre and the 680+ stat pokemon away from the battles in which we test our skills by using psuedo-legends. If you want to restrict certain pokemon, vote to expand UU to include all Standards that are not Salamence, Grachomp, Scizor, Tyranitar, and Wobbuffet, but standard tier was built for Salamences and Tyranitar users to have a place to show off. Heck, smogon loses it's function as a pokemon battle simulator completely should you ban too many Standard tier pokemon from OU; smogon is the testing grounds for the standard teams we make in game. And in game standard does include Wobbuffet and Garchomp, in addition to sSlamence, whether they are balanced or not.
@ Hcapt: What do you define as a legendary Pokemon then?
Hard to get in game? Same could be said about Feebas, Farfetch'd (in FRLG) amongst others.
600 or more BST? Same with Salamence, Tyranitar, Slaking etc.
In competitive battling, legendary status in game means NOTHING. A "legendary Pokemon" does not exist outside of the RPG, and is essentially a non existant term in the competitive battling arena. The point of standard is to maintain balance, which is non existant if Kyogre, Arceus, Rayquaza and co. were allowed in. And once again, being in OU does not depend on if you are popular/useable in Ubers. If say Mewtwo was completely outclassed by another Pokemon in the next games and his usage in Ubers dropped to 0.01%, would that justify having him in standard? No because it would be unbalanced.
Hard to get in game? Same could be said about Feebas, Farfetch'd (in FRLG) amongst others.
600 or more BST? Same with Salamence, Tyranitar, Slaking etc.
In competitive battling, legendary status in game means NOTHING. A "legendary Pokemon" does not exist outside of the RPG, and is essentially a non existant term in the competitive battling arena. The point of standard is to maintain balance, which is non existant if Kyogre, Arceus, Rayquaza and co. were allowed in. And once again, being in OU does not depend on if you are popular/useable in Ubers. If say Mewtwo was completely outclassed by another Pokemon in the next games and his usage in Ubers dropped to 0.01%, would that justify having him in standard? No because it would be unbalanced.
I play smogon's standard tier because I recognize it's validity. The pokemon selected for Uber were initially chosen because they were too powerful. The reason Uber isn't standard tier is because it began with Mewtwo being unbeatable and needing it's own tier, and pokemon with similar power to Mewtwo were placed in that tier as the games proceeded.
Salamence isn't even close to Mewtwo, Lugia, or any of the other Ubers when it comes to the centralizing effect. The only pokemon that did not almost immediately get placed in Ubers to begin with that are there now are Garchomp, which ran on about 40% of teams, and wobbuffet, which became just as powerful as Mewtwo in the third gen when it was given an ability, in it's own way.
I cannot recognie the validity of smogon's standard tier if it removes pokemon by which I define standard tier. Garchomp was one of those pokemon, but I agreed with the decision only because it was so statistically prevalent, and not because on paper it's undefeatable. Salamence is the definitive OU for me. In fact, the entire cast of psuedo-legends is how I define the OU tier - they are the strongest pokemon that still allow for a competitive metagame, and the five psuedo legends, along with all the weak legends, could easily be it's own, Standard tier.
But I cannot recognize a Standard metagame that removes both Salamence and Garchomp, as the pseudo-legendary tier is how I define the line between Uber - pokemon that could individually destroy the standard tier we slowly established by eliminating them from being considered for standard, and standard tier, the pokemon that range from pathetic to powerful, the pinnacle of which being defined by the pseudo legends. Without that boundary between standard and Uber, the line the likes of Salamence and Tyranitar represent, I personally cannot recognize the standard metagame as valid and justified. Perhaps you can, in which case good for you and enjoy your game. But I myself cannot recognize the rules by which you play as valid unless it can be shown such a decision is justified in practice, and not just on paper. And the numbers on the server seem to indicate that the decision to move Salamence to Uber is not justified at this time, seeing as the most likely candidate, the pokemon that centralizes the metagame the most, by definition is the one on the top of the usage list, as it is the most used. And at this time, that pokemon is scizor, not Salamence.
I understand if you don't enjoy playing against Salamence because it has no counters. I simply cannot sympathize with a decision to keep me from using Salamence in Standard tier, and force me into a tier I cannot use Salamence in effectively, when the numbers in practice do not justify such a decision, reguardless of the theory behind the decision.
Salamence isn't even close to Mewtwo, Lugia, or any of the other Ubers when it comes to the centralizing effect. The only pokemon that did not almost immediately get placed in Ubers to begin with that are there now are Garchomp, which ran on about 40% of teams, and wobbuffet, which became just as powerful as Mewtwo in the third gen when it was given an ability, in it's own way.
I cannot recognie the validity of smogon's standard tier if it removes pokemon by which I define standard tier. Garchomp was one of those pokemon, but I agreed with the decision only because it was so statistically prevalent, and not because on paper it's undefeatable. Salamence is the definitive OU for me. In fact, the entire cast of psuedo-legends is how I define the OU tier - they are the strongest pokemon that still allow for a competitive metagame, and the five psuedo legends, along with all the weak legends, could easily be it's own, Standard tier.
But I cannot recognize a Standard metagame that removes both Salamence and Garchomp, as the pseudo-legendary tier is how I define the line between Uber - pokemon that could individually destroy the standard tier we slowly established by eliminating them from being considered for standard, and standard tier, the pokemon that range from pathetic to powerful, the pinnacle of which being defined by the pseudo legends. Without that boundary between standard and Uber, the line the likes of Salamence and Tyranitar represent, I personally cannot recognize the standard metagame as valid and justified. Perhaps you can, in which case good for you and enjoy your game. But I myself cannot recognize the rules by which you play as valid unless it can be shown such a decision is justified in practice, and not just on paper. And the numbers on the server seem to indicate that the decision to move Salamence to Uber is not justified at this time, seeing as the most likely candidate, the pokemon that centralizes the metagame the most, by definition is the one on the top of the usage list, as it is the most used. And at this time, that pokemon is scizor, not Salamence.
I understand if you don't enjoy playing against Salamence because it has no counters. I simply cannot sympathize with a decision to keep me from using Salamence in Standard tier, and force me into a tier I cannot use Salamence in effectively, when the numbers in practice do not justify such a decision, reguardless of the theory behind the decision.
I do admit that Salamence does not dominate the metagame to the extent that Mewtwo or Lugia would if they were in standard but I do think there is a limit which Salamence has crossed. It is unreasonable to only ban Pokemon from the standard tier if they "totally dominate" the metagame because that would lead to definite imbalance. Whilst I do also admit that the line between what is standard and what is Uber is not clearly defined I feel that Salamence transgresses this line based on its dominance and it defining characteristic on a tier.
It is also impractical to impose a blanket ban in which everything (including pseudo legendaries) is standard except for legendaries and something EXTREMELY broken because the upper levels of each tier, or in this case the pseudo legendaries, are not uniform in levels of "value" but quite staggered. You can't ban Pokemon based on whether it is in a legendary, pseuodo legendary or normal group because the best ten Pokemon of each group are at different levels, with some of the best of the best even being superior to the lowest of the higher tier.
It is also impractical to impose a blanket ban in which everything (including pseudo legendaries) is standard except for legendaries and something EXTREMELY broken because the upper levels of each tier, or in this case the pseudo legendaries, are not uniform in levels of "value" but quite staggered. You can't ban Pokemon based on whether it is in a legendary, pseuodo legendary or normal group because the best ten Pokemon of each group are at different levels, with some of the best of the best even being superior to the lowest of the higher tier.
@khz - that's easy
I would be fine with an OU tier that included everything with less than 650 base stats, plus Regigigas and Slaking, was allowed. And no soul dew. That divide of 70 base stats between psuedolegend and Kyogre level is pretty easy to spot. Wobbuffet might still have to stay Uber though - I don't know much about it, but I hear it's ability is strong enough to make up the difference. Also, no soul dew, that item lets Latias and latios cross the 70 point divide.
Although Ironically, declaring all pokemon including Ubers as Standard would also create balance. Ubers are relatively balanced, although not as much as standard, and it was by an arbitrary distinction between two tiers of Standard and Uber that we got to a sence of balance is standards. But the standard tier itself is artificial, while only Ubers is natural to the games. If we had not determined that the 80 point gap between mewtwo and dragonite was too wide in red and blue, then I highly doubt there would be any standard tier at all. Since I think under the assumption that the distinction between Uber is Standard is artificial, it makes sence to me that the lines between the two be determined in a straightforward manner rather than by balance. Since smogon is a pokemon simulator, the most natural way to mark the divide appears to be either by the very obvious stats divide or in the same manner as the games do when placing restrictions on things like the battle frontier. The latter would be best, as it would be the most useful in creating a team that everyone could consider fair and standard, with no Ubers. In the current system, one player could criticize me for using Latios because it's uber, while another recognize it as justifiable because the game itself allows you to use it in the battle facilities, which make for a good benchmark of what is standard by design and thus universally standard. That would also optomize shoddy's usefulness in preparing a team, as the more shoddy's ruleset has in common with the games, the better shoddy can make me at pokemon with my friends and at tournaments.
I would be fine with an OU tier that included everything with less than 650 base stats, plus Regigigas and Slaking, was allowed. And no soul dew. That divide of 70 base stats between psuedolegend and Kyogre level is pretty easy to spot. Wobbuffet might still have to stay Uber though - I don't know much about it, but I hear it's ability is strong enough to make up the difference. Also, no soul dew, that item lets Latias and latios cross the 70 point divide.
Although Ironically, declaring all pokemon including Ubers as Standard would also create balance. Ubers are relatively balanced, although not as much as standard, and it was by an arbitrary distinction between two tiers of Standard and Uber that we got to a sence of balance is standards. But the standard tier itself is artificial, while only Ubers is natural to the games. If we had not determined that the 80 point gap between mewtwo and dragonite was too wide in red and blue, then I highly doubt there would be any standard tier at all. Since I think under the assumption that the distinction between Uber is Standard is artificial, it makes sence to me that the lines between the two be determined in a straightforward manner rather than by balance. Since smogon is a pokemon simulator, the most natural way to mark the divide appears to be either by the very obvious stats divide or in the same manner as the games do when placing restrictions on things like the battle frontier. The latter would be best, as it would be the most useful in creating a team that everyone could consider fair and standard, with no Ubers. In the current system, one player could criticize me for using Latios because it's uber, while another recognize it as justifiable because the game itself allows you to use it in the battle facilities, which make for a good benchmark of what is standard by design and thus universally standard. That would also optomize shoddy's usefulness in preparing a team, as the more shoddy's ruleset has in common with the games, the better shoddy can make me at pokemon with my friends and at tournaments.
Stop complaining and deal with it. I cannot fathom why you would not consider Garchomp to be OU given your blind and arbitrary criterion of "all 600 BST Pokemon must be OU." Whatever the case, creating a healthy competitive metagame transcends those arbitrary labels that you hold so dear.
The most used Pokemon is not necessarily the most centralizing. Scizor fills a very unique, sought after niche given his ability, typing, and movepool, and that is why he is #1 on the usage stats. He is still hard countered by a plethora of Pokemon that would be used in a Scizor-less metagame.
Truth be told, the scrub in me doesn't personally mind Latias' banning that much, and doesn't like legendaries in general. But I would greatly mind a second psuedo-legendary banning, as I love the psuedo-legendaries and they are the favorite part of every pokemon game for me. I want to make myself a pseudo-legendary team next gen, that has base-600 evolved pokemon. Garchomp I could understand, but Salamence I can never accept as banned; it strays too far from the in-game defacto rule-set for standard and my final, idealized (although probably terribly weak to infernape) team for me to follow along without evidence that Salamence is as much trouble as the last pseudo-legend we banned. The last banning was very difficult, and the usage divide between Garchomp and the rest of the game was huge before the ban was implemented. By comparison, Salamence is just an infernape - a great revenge killer with no safe switch-ins, but not something I need another Salamence to handle.
How can I prepare my next psuedo-legendary team if all the members get banned one by one?
How can I prepare my next psuedo-legendary team if all the members get banned one by one?
@ Hcapt: I'm all for the creation of a boundary that clearly states what is standard and that everything above it is Uber. But I'm also realistic; I know it doesn't exist. Comparing two different Pokemon is almost impossible, since a Pokemon's competitive value is a combination of its type, stats, moveset, item, ability, and moveset-stat synergy. That's six different variables, but there are around 50 different current type combinations, 100's of abilities and items and 300 different stat combinations. It's just implausible to make a boundary of what is standard and what is not. Even comparing one Pokemon to another is almost impossible due to different combinations and sets.
So I've established that a perfect definition of what is standard, Uber, UU or NU is impossible, how do we group decide what is what? Well we implement arbitrary measures. Saying everything above 600 BST is Uber is perfectly acceptable, but with any measure you have to accept that there will be exceptions. The fact that you gave a 650+ BST limit as the cut off is fine, but you then listed some exceptions. That's the entire point. No matter how you define tiers there will always be exceptions and that has to be accepted. So under the current tier definitions, which are in no way perfect, there will be exceptions. In my opinion Salamence has reached the point where it is Uber.
So I've established that a perfect definition of what is standard, Uber, UU or NU is impossible, how do we group decide what is what? Well we implement arbitrary measures. Saying everything above 600 BST is Uber is perfectly acceptable, but with any measure you have to accept that there will be exceptions. The fact that you gave a 650+ BST limit as the cut off is fine, but you then listed some exceptions. That's the entire point. No matter how you define tiers there will always be exceptions and that has to be accepted. So under the current tier definitions, which are in no way perfect, there will be exceptions. In my opinion Salamence has reached the point where it is Uber.
A healthy competitive metagame can only be established with universal standards across all communities. The more alterations you make to the rules, the more fragmented the community becomes. That is why bannings are a last resort.
I used to play smash bros. brawl, and those guys will openly mock the pokemon community for it's fragmentation, and don't really care about balance to the point where the character Metaknight has a 50% usage, and does not qualify for a ban. That is because nothing is worse for a competitive community than disagreement on tournament rules, and they do not want to ban anything in the event that other tactics are found in the future on other characters that will nullify that advantage, leading to an entire tier of banned pokemon. In other words, the Uber tier is what they want to avoid at all costs, as it is the worst possible thing for the competitive community, resulting in arbitrary determinations of balance.
The standard tier of the games has the creators intent behind it, meaning if we banned only the pokemon and items you can't take into the battle tower, you could distinguish between Uber and standard with a universal ruleset in mind. But every change in tier confuses the matter of what the standard will be. Currently, we have an evasion clause, a sleep clause, a 1hko clause, and a completely different line between standard and Uber than the games. This leads to situations where some teams are illegal in one standard tournament (a gamestop Pokemon battle revolution tournament allowed for no legendaries, while shoddy rules place Articuno in NU), some tournaments explicitly ignore shoddy standard tier in favor of their own (this happens on smahsboards concerning garchomp a lot) and a situation where shoddy becomes a less and less sufficient simulator for how to design in-game teams, as these teams will not be under the same ruleset they were tested in.
The pokemon metagame is not healthy; and I have seen first hand the damage this rebalancing and inconsistency. That is why bans are a last resort, and not done simply to improve balance.
I used to play smash bros. brawl, and those guys will openly mock the pokemon community for it's fragmentation, and don't really care about balance to the point where the character Metaknight has a 50% usage, and does not qualify for a ban. That is because nothing is worse for a competitive community than disagreement on tournament rules, and they do not want to ban anything in the event that other tactics are found in the future on other characters that will nullify that advantage, leading to an entire tier of banned pokemon. In other words, the Uber tier is what they want to avoid at all costs, as it is the worst possible thing for the competitive community, resulting in arbitrary determinations of balance.
The standard tier of the games has the creators intent behind it, meaning if we banned only the pokemon and items you can't take into the battle tower, you could distinguish between Uber and standard with a universal ruleset in mind. But every change in tier confuses the matter of what the standard will be. Currently, we have an evasion clause, a sleep clause, a 1hko clause, and a completely different line between standard and Uber than the games. This leads to situations where some teams are illegal in one standard tournament (a gamestop Pokemon battle revolution tournament allowed for no legendaries, while shoddy rules place Articuno in NU), some tournaments explicitly ignore shoddy standard tier in favor of their own (this happens on smahsboards concerning garchomp a lot) and a situation where shoddy becomes a less and less sufficient simulator for how to design in-game teams, as these teams will not be under the same ruleset they were tested in.
The pokemon metagame is not healthy; and I have seen first hand the damage this rebalancing and inconsistency. That is why bans are a last resort, and not done simply to improve balance.
Hcapt, what you said three posts above me has almost nothing to do with competitive Pokemon. The only relevant thing you're talking about is the banning of pseudo-legendary Pokemon, and you even screwed that up, since whether a Pokemon is pseudo-legendary or not has nothing to do with competitive Pokemon.
As for your team, a) it's irrelevant and b) use it in Ubers if you must.
As for your team, a) it's irrelevant and b) use it in Ubers if you must.
I think you're confusing Shoddy Battle as a simulator and Shoddy Battle as a way of battling competitively. If you want to design your next Battle Tower team on Shoddy, then that's fine, but don't expect the Smogon server to give an accurate representation of how your team will perform. By its nature, competitive battling is about winning and as a result any oversights by the game designers in "balancing" will be thoroughly abused, regardless of whether Battle Tower bans it or not.
And in my opinion "arbitrary" determinations of what is standard for balance occurs if we just say "anything with a BST higher than XXX is banned." Now let's assume that the 650+ BST is the Uber benchmark, as you proposed a few posts back. However, you also said that Wobuffet/ Garchomp should probably also be Uber. Is this not an "alteration" that will cause "fragmentation" within the community? By your definition it is. Like I said before, propose as many kinds of benchmarks as you want, just prepare for exceptions to occur.
And in my opinion "arbitrary" determinations of what is standard for balance occurs if we just say "anything with a BST higher than XXX is banned." Now let's assume that the 650+ BST is the Uber benchmark, as you proposed a few posts back. However, you also said that Wobuffet/ Garchomp should probably also be Uber. Is this not an "alteration" that will cause "fragmentation" within the community? By your definition it is. Like I said before, propose as many kinds of benchmarks as you want, just prepare for exceptions to occur.