Well, sub pain-split gengar doesn't have the raw power found in DDMence and MixMence. The way I see it, Gengar does get a second hit while he has the sub up, perhaps scoring him a kill, but doesn't have the raw killing power. The fact of the matter is that Gengar doesn't get a powerful enough STAB move, and doesn't do as much damage as Mence does. What mence does with one draco meteor Gengar can do with two shadow balls. Not to mention the lack of bulk and viable stat boosting moves.subpainsplit gengar can switch in more and force more out (can salamence force celebi out? Chances are it'll take the hit and twave. Same with bold blissey) than mence, and yes, can beat pretty much the entire OU, including cresselia, with substitute up. Also, by luring and beating blissey, subpainsplit gengar satisfies clause #3 better than mence as well. Subpainsplit gengar is maybe the only set that can effectively run substitute and life orb and not be gimicky (meaning unexpected) like heatran. Oh, and that's through 2 moves that have perfect coverage, not 3. And yes, despite his frail nature, the 3, read 3 extra immunities give him more situations to switch in (sally can't really switch into stab fire moves or stab fighting moves with ease).
No, it's not easier for him to switch in. Gengar is usually taking a risk regardless of what it tries to switch in on because it has no bulk. If Infernape is in on Lucario, and you want to save his ass, you're either taking a Fire Blast or Close Combat. If you're wrong, Gengar is dead. Gengar would usually prefer coming in on the revenge because anything that has a move it's immune is going to have a move to hit it as well.subpainsplit gengar can switch in more and force more out (can salamence force celebi out? Chances are it'll take the hit and twave. Same with bold blissey) than mence, and yes, can beat pretty much the entire OU, including cresselia, with substitute up. Also, by luring and beating blissey, subpainsplit gengar satisfies clause #3 better than mence as well. Subpainsplit gengar is maybe the only set that can effectively run substitute and life orb and not be gimicky (meaning unexpected) like heatran. Oh, and that's through 2 moves that have perfect coverage, not 3. And yes, despite his frail nature, the 3, read 3 extra immunities give him more situations to switch in (sally can't really switch into stab fire moves or stab fighting moves with ease).
Salamence has Intimidate, which makes it better defensively than Dragonite on the whole. The movepool advantages are why Dragonite is OU, but they are nothing close to letting Dragonite surpass Salamence. Keep in mind, Salamence does not need anything more than it has: Between Outrage/Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/Earthquake everything in the game is hit for a 2HKO at least. Salamence wouldn't really be improved much by getting any of Dragonite's moves, apart from maybe Superpower or Extremespeed.Well, Dragonite does have Extremespeed, Agility, Superpower, Ice Beam, Focus Blast, Focus Punch, etc, and what does Salamence have Dragonite doesnt? Hydro Pump? Salamence has higher special attack and speed but practically the same Attack stat. Dragonite has much higher defence and special defence than Salamence. With this being the case, that 20 stat speed diference must mean alot, because besides that and a little special attack, Dragonite almost completely outclasses Salamence.
None of your moves kill Blissey. You won't beat it. It will PP stall if it has to and win.Um...the whole point of subpainsplit is that it beats blissey 1 on 1.
What part of special tank do you not understand? There is a different spread for specially defensive Zapdos, you know. If I use any special tank at all, I can beat Gengar. Oh, and Tbolt doesn't 2HKO max/max Togekiss. I can Roost stall until I'm at 100% or close, then attack. Not broken, not even close.LO shadowball does 47-57% to physically defensive zapdos
Nope, it works perfectly for what I'm talking about. Salamence can chance a hit it doesn't resist from a slower Pokemon if it has to (and tbh, there's hardly any of those, since its typing gives it so many damn useful resists), while Gengar can't. Coming in on Lucario again might get you Crunched. Those 3 immunities don't give it better switch-in prowess, it just makes it so that it can get in at all.Also your argument for infernape is faulty
Don't talk about pokemon you've never used, or don't know how to use.None of your moves kill Blissey. You won't beat it. It will PP stall if it has to and win.
No one uses Specially Defensive Zapdos in standard OU. Unless Suspect has some I don't know about due to the huge number of Shaymin, even then you're still likely better off physically defensive for fighting Lucario, Gyarados or Scizor.What part of special tank do you not understand? There is a different spread for specially defensive Zapdos, you know. If I use any special tank at all, I can beat Gengar. Oh, and Tbolt doesn't 2HKO max/max Togekiss. I can Roost stall until I'm at 100% or close, then attack. Not broken, not even close.
I don't care what Susie and her friends use. Specially Defensive Zapdos is listed as a Smogon set, so somebody's using it. Anything that can be tailored as a counter and is feasible for other uses should be considered viable. And no, I'm not talking about Shuca Berry Lanturn for DDMence or something equally stupid, just using OUs to counter other OUs. Gengar can be countered if you bother to actually do it, but a lot of people don't because it's probably only going to get one kill before something Pursuits it.No one uses Specially Defensive Zapdos in standard OU. Unless Suspect has some I don't know about due to the huge number of Shaymin, even then you're still likely better off physically defensive for fighting Lucario, Gyarados or Scizor.
35.2% - 41.5%Specially Defensive Zapdos (I'm talking a rediculous max/max spread that no one will run) can be 2HKOed by LO Gengar after Rocks anyhow. Its no Gengar counter.
Are you reading the figures you just posted? Really, something that has >50% of being KOed by LO Shadow Ball after SR and Leftovers outwith sandstorm and with no prior damage is a counter?35.2% - 41.5%
Nope. Gengar counter.
I don't care what Susie and her friends use. Specially Defensive Zapdos is listed as a Smogon set, so somebody's using it.
Yeah, somebody's using it. But not as much as, huh, the other sets.| Zapdos | Nature | Bold | 37.7 |
| Zapdos | Nature | Timid | 30.8 |
| Zapdos | Nature | Modest | 16.9 |
| Zapdos | Nature | Calm | 11.6 |
| Zapdos | SpDefense EV | None | 78.3 |
| Zapdos | SpDefense EV | Very High (200+) | 8.6 |
| Zapdos | SpDefense EV | Other (5) | < 6.1 |
Actually I've played a test battle vs Philip7086 with my Wish + Softboiled Blissey (to fully test it) and he managed to get down all 32 of my healing PP. This did leave him with 0 Pain Split PP as well, but it effectively neutered my Blissey to make it death fodder.None of your moves kill Blissey. You won't beat it. It will PP stall if it has to and win.
This means 0.79% of teams run Specially Defensive Zapdos.Yeah, somebody's using it. But not as much as, huh, the other sets.
According to Libelldra's damage calc, that's a .07% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers recovery. So if Gengar gets a critical hit, then yeah, Zapdos is not a counter.Are you reading the figures you just posted? Really, something that has >50% of being KOed by LO Shadow Ball after SR and Leftovers outwith sandstorm and with no prior damage is a counter?
I didn't say "if you have any Zapdos on your team, you can counter Gengar" or, "if your opponent has a Zapdos, it is likely to wall Gengar". The point is that Zapdos, if it invests in special defense, can counter Gengar. Period. If it's causing enough problems for my teams, I have the option to use Zapdos to counter it.Yeah, somebody's using it. But not as much as, huh, the other sets.
I've played actual battles vs. Sub + Pain Split Gengar where Gengar would win each time to a lucky crit. But most of the time, Gengar would refrain from attacking because my Blissey carries Shadow Ball to beat it (useful for Rotom and Dusknoir too). If Blissey doesn't run a move to beat Gengar, then I suppose Gengar wins, but then really, why are you using it for comparison if you're not running it with the intention of beating it?Actually I've played a test battle vs Philip7086 with my Wish + Softboiled Blissey (to fully test it) and he managed to get down all 32 of my healing PP. This did leave him with 0 Pain Split PP as well, but it effectively neutered my Blissey to make it death fodder.
Latias was never a problem for Raikou lol. My Raikou wins practically every time when Latias switches in against it (unless trick scarf). it usually goes sub, CM, latias breaks sub, 2HKO with hp ice. Even if its a CM latias raikou still usually wins because of the simple fact that its faster (it also pwns wish+cm jirachi). its always been an underrated threat capable of decimating most teams with the right support (toxic spikes mainly). aura sphere sounds cool for hitting ttar and those annoying sp def heatran I sometimes come across, too bad its rash though because getting outsped by ape, gengar, and not being able to tie with starmie sucks.I also expect Raikou to get some glory. Now that one of the faster special walls has gone to ubers, and with the new moves it'll be getting, it'll be a force to be reckoned with in the new metagame. Considering that it's faster than Mence and Ttar (even after a speed boost), will be getting aura sphere, and with 115 speed and a decent spatk stat, it'll be taken' names.
A Stealth Rock weak poke that has to switch in at 100% (75% after rocks) and STILL have around a 25% chance of being 2HKOed (SP defense drop from Shadow Ball) is nowhere near a reliable counter.According to Libelldra's damage calc, that's a .07% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers recovery. So if Gengar gets a critical hit, then yeah, Zapdos is not a counter.
Thunderbolt doesn't even kill Gengar in one hit.I didn't say "if you have any Zapdos on your team, you can counter Gengar" or, "if your opponent has a Zapdos, it is likely to wall Gengar". The point is that Zapdos, if it invests in special defense, can counter Gengar. Period. If it's causing enough problems for my teams, I have the option to use Zapdos to counter it.
I would make an argument to how stupid it is to run Shadow Ball on Blissey (I see its benefits, but its a huge waste of a moveslot) just keep in mind Shadow Ball is only doing..I've played actual battles vs. Sub + Pain Split Gengar where Gengar would win each time to a lucky crit. But most of the time, Gengar would refrain from attacking because my Blissey carries Shadow Ball to beat it (useful for Rotom and Dusknoir too). If Blissey doesn't run a move to beat Gengar, then I suppose Gengar wins, but then really, why are you using it for comparison if you're not running it with the intention of beating it?
Keep in mind that you cannot beat a Blissey using Flamethrower or Ice Beam because those do break Subs, however you can cripple it by making it run out of Softboiled/Wish PP.Focus Blast deals 200 - 236 meaning Gengar can easily Sub stall as non-Shadow Ball moves often do not break a Sub, and if Gengar uses Pain Split after taking a direct hit from Shadow Ball Blissey will take heavy damage.
If you run Bold Blissey you will easily be 2HKOed after a Pain Split. Scizor does not beat Gengar as Pain Split + LO Focus Blast is a guarenteed KO on 252 HP Scizor.