CAP 13 CAP 2 - Concept Assessment

[bugmaniacbob]

In other words, this concept has intense direction. Whatever we want this CAP to be, we will need to think very, very carefully at each stage about how we intend to get it there.

Pretty sure that most CAPs we've made have been a bit more regimented in terms of direction than "We want a bulky, offensively competent, supporty thing" but I digress.

Okay, I really need to post here so that everyone understands. The most important questions we need to address right now are as follows:

Should CAP 2 be offensively inclined, defensively inclined, or primarily supporting? Keeping that question in mind, what is the best mold for CAP 2 to follow in order to achieve sufficient diversity in the use of Sketch and not heavy bias to one mode of Sketch-use over all others?
​

Please focus on this question. Don't talk about abilities, don't talk about specific stats or how fast/slow/powerful/etc CAP 2 needs to be, and don't talk about special/physical bias. It's inevitable to talk about moves, since CAP 2 can learn any move, and they're relevant to the concept at this level.

I currently believe that bulky offense seems to present the best mold, as I mentioned before because of its versatility in options, but not being too heavily biased offensively or defensively such that it overwhelms OU. Please discuss why you agree or disagree with me, or what other possible molds would work. Also, provide examples and comparisons to other Pokemon so that you can back up your statements; we know how other Pokemon operate, and that can help us understand the eventual CAP 2 better.

I think that at some point we have to accept that a CAPmon is not at any stage going to be given underwhelming offensive stats, not simply because precedent dictates, or because we have seen that every Pokemon in OU at present has some form of offensive capability - the only one who doesn't is probably Blissey (and arguably Forretress/Bronzong). It seems clear to me that at least moderately high offensive stats are going to be present no matter what else we do to this CAP, and thus, I'd say that the "offence" label is both misleading and invalid at present.

If we want some degree of competence in offensive ability, we should either want, as in a bulky attacker, to have high defences coupled with low Speed, or else, as in a frail attacker, to have high Speed coupled with moderate defensive stats. Having both is probably not a good idea in my opinion. We do need to try to limit what this CAP can feasibly pull off, and I'd say that the frail offensive build works better in this regard. However, I am certain that this CAP will turn out an offensive Pokemon regardless, whatever we do to it, as I said above.

To achieve sufficient diversity in terms of Sketch? Personally, I feel that this is most centred around the movepool. No matter what the build is, it will always bias one stat-up move over another (eg. Coil/Calm Mind for slow, defensive CAPmon, Shell Smash or Quiver Dance for bulky offence CAPmon, Tail Glow or similar for hyper offence CAPmon) - but if it doesn't have the coverage moves, it can't be an effective sweeper. Hence the decision between setup, coverage, or even recovery - this, I think, is the crucial point.

So then, I don't honestly think that the build matters much at this stage, if at all. We're pretty much adamant that it should be offensively-inclined, as that's pretty much where all the variety lies; not to mention that support moves are far easier to "tack on" to a Pokemon with a small movepool, yet don't really work that well independently of one another (most support Pokemon need more than one support move). To improve this case later on, the movepool should ideally be support-based.

In conclusion, I'd prefer to see a moderately offensive build with a defensive typing and a support-based movepool. Typing is a primarily defensive boost, but not giving it STAB on something ridiculous like Dragon is probably a good thing. All it needs to use the big moves effectively is a half-decent offensive stat, and limiting the movepool to supporting moves for the most part a) makes supporting sets more viable and b) prevents a single, super-offensive set from becoming standard, to the demise of all other potential sets.

 

[Birkal]

I find arguments like, "If we went with ______ role, then Sketch will be centralized around Shell Smash," to be be a tad invalid. While stats go a long way in deciding what the Pokemon can do, its movepool and abilities will also play a large role in allowing CAP2 to perform many roles (offensive, defensive, and supportive). For example, would Shell Smash really be optimal if it its movepool only consisted of one or two offensive moves that are predictable? A Pokemon's role does not always equate to stats. Consider Espeon. While it has fantastic offensive presence and speed, it can perform defensive roles just as well, perhaps even better. Why? With access to moves like Reflect, Light Screen, and Calm Mind AND a great supportive ability in Magic Bounce, Espeon can fit a variety of roles, despite the one-sided dimensions of its stats.

There is much that I wish to discuss, but now is not the time; I have a rather busy day. Keep the discussion up guys =D!

 

[Monstermongler]

Should CAP 2 be offensively inclined, defensively inclined, or primarily supporting? Keeping that question in mind, what is the best mold for CAP 2 to follow in order to achieve sufficient diversity in the use of Sketch and not heavy bias to one mode of Sketch-use over all others?

The idea behind the pokémon is that it has a rather limited movepool and can then add one surprising move. That move will be the core of how it is played. Primarily supportive pokémon (leaders and anooying walls that set up the field for the match) often use a combination of several moves to achieve maximum effect (several terrain hazards for instance, and sometimes a healing move to stay at it longer). Therefor that seems to be less suited for this concept.

For the other two I'm inclined to lean towards offensive. The extra move gets one chance to surprise the opponent, an offensive pokémon could make better use of that opportunity. However, to prevent it from being broken the "real" movepool of this pokémon might have to be limited to not include any really powerfull attacking moves. This in turn would make the pokémon pretty useless when used with a non-attack sketch move (because it has no other good attacks), which limits the use of the concept and how interesting it is.

So basically: offensive if it can stay balanced and interesting.

 

[reachzero]

Should CAP 2 be offensively inclined, defensively inclined, or primarily supporting? Keeping that question in mind, what is the best mold for CAP 2 to follow in order to achieve sufficient diversity in the use of Sketch and not heavy bias to one mode of Sketch-use over all others?
Please focus on this question. Don't talk about abilities, don't talk about specific stats or how fast/slow/powerful/etc CAP 2 needs to be, and don't talk about special/physical bias. It's inevitable to talk about moves, since CAP 2 can learn any move, and they're relevant to the concept at this level.

I currently believe that bulky offense seems to present the best mold

I thought Rising_Dusk made it pretty clear that he was not looking for a discussion of what CAP2's stats should look like, or how big or small its movepool needs to be, or even CAP2's stat bias. Unless I seriously misunderstand him, he is asking us to clarify what we want CAP2's role to be, whether its goal will be killing stuff, or stalling stuff out, or playing pure support. Pokemon that play an offensive role don't always have the most offensively inclined stat bias (look at Scrafty), and Pokemon that seemingly have fairly offensive stats often play a more defensive role if they can do it (Swampert comes to mind). We can worry about the statistical configuration later.

In terms of CAP2's role, I believe that an offensive role is less limiting than a defensive or supportive one. Defensive and supporting Pokemon require a lot of factors to go their way in order to become a strong, OU-viable Pokemon. A defensive Pokemon needs reliable recovery, at least one attack strong enough to keep it from becoming set-up bait, strong typing, and something to do with the free turns it generates (phazing, entry hazards, status attacks, etc.). I am concerned that choosing a defensive role will constrict our options early on--we will need to choose a good defensive typing, we will need to include multiple good moves in the non-Sketch movepool, we will need to slant the stats strongly in a certain direction, etc. A supporting role lessens the dependence on good typing and recovery, but for a supporting Pokemon, having four good moveslots is a huge factor. One big reason why Forretress and Tentacruel are among the best supporters is that they get both Toxic Spikes AND Rapid Spin, maximizing their utility. With only one guaranteed excellent moveslot, I really don't think making CAP2 a dedicated support Pokemon is a good idea. I find it more likely that whatever role we choose, CAP2 will have "semi-support" as a secondary role, since it can always choose to take Spikes or Rapid Spin, etc., no matter what else it is doing.

Offense gives us the most options, hands down. If we choose offense, we could take optimal offensive typing, or we could intentionally choose defensive typing that is less than optimal offensive, and we can still be quite certain that CAP2 will still have significant firepower. Two attack coverage combinations mean that it would be much easier to build a balanced movepool for an offensive Pokemon than a defensive one. Offense can work whether a Pokemon is very slow (Reuniclus) or very fast (Deoxys-e), which is to say that stats are not necessarily an absolute decider of role. We could give CAP2 moderately threatening offenses and still expect it to be a potent offensive Pokemon, we could not expect to give CAP2 moderately bulky defenses and expect it to be a strong defensive Pokemon.

Offense gives us more options at every stage of the process, and is much less difficult to make a Pokemon for without straying from the spirit of the concept, I vote offense.

 

[MaestroXXVI]

I know it's been mentioned...but as far as I know, if there are 'maxims' in competitive pokemon, unwritten rules that people just don't break, then "If a pokemon can learn Spore, Spore must be in every one of its movesets" is one of the more unbreakable. Unless this pokemon has an annoyingly small movepool (or learns spore naturally...hmmm) then I get the feeling that 9 times out of 10 Spore will be the choice for the sketch move...and even then, what's basically an ohko in gen v is probably too good to pass up...

 

[RotationalBasis]

I thought Rising_Dusk made it pretty clear that he was not looking for a discussion of what CAP2's stats should look like, or how big or small its movepool needs to be, or even CAP2's stat bias. Unless I seriously misunderstand him, he is asking us to clarify what we want CAP2's role to be, whether its goal will be killing stuff, or stalling stuff out, or playing pure support. Pokemon that play an offensive role don't always have the most offensively inclined stat bias (look at Scrafty), and Pokemon that seemingly have fairly offensive stats often play a more defensive role if they can do it (Swampert comes to mind). We can worry about the statistical configuration later.

In that case, because there's nothing more in terms of requirement than Sketch as a move, doesn't the rest of just come down to what we think is 'fun', 'good' or 'appropriate'?

In that case I think something with sweeping potential as well as a decent support capability and longevity (as long as you haven't shell-smashed or belly-drummed) would make a decent foundation.

 

[Gregar]

Not really reacting to anyone yet, just putting in my 2 cents. A lot of this has allready been said, I like to think I´m adding something.

1) Should CAP 2 be primarily offensive or defensive or supporting?

Seeing as Smeargle is mostly used as a BP chain starter or a Sleepinducer in VGC, I like something that goes offensive. It's something Smeargle could never pull off. We allready know what a supportive Sketch looks like. I'd like to see how much impact a wildcard in the moveset would have.

2) How do you balance a single of any move in the game on a Pokemon?

The obvious answer is statwise, but that would make it a second Smeargle. I can't stress enough how much I would like to move away from making a second Smeargle. Maybe a crippling typing or ability. Obviously not as useless as Truant, but maybe some sort of Slow Start might be a cool idea.
Limiting the natural movepool is a given. It gets any move it wants, but nothing too much. I see the movepool as a little of everything, but not the best. An example would be giving it Defense Curl, but not Iron Defense. An offensive example would be giving it Shock Wave, but not Thunderbolt. Sketch could fill one of those moves.


3) What can Smeargle teach us about Sketch that will be relevant to creating CAP 2?

Smeargle teaches us that crappy stats do not have to limit usage. Cap has the goal of making something good, but not something overpowered. I think we should not be afraid to keep some base stats low, because as long as some key moves, abilities or stats are present, the Pokémon will still see usage. Look at Smeargles laughable defenses. Still people will never use it as a tank, but they will use it for what it CAN do, namely ScarfSleeping or Baton Pass chains.


I think with this Cap it's going to be key to ask "Will this break the Pokémon?" at every step of the build. With this I mean breaking both ways, both over- and underpowering is a risk with this one.

 

[jas61292]

I find arguments like, "If we went with ______ role, then Sketch will be centralized around Shell Smash," to be be a tad invalid.

You know, I was just about to post something similar to this, especially with regard to the bulky offense role. The fact is, assuming it does not naturally get Baton Pass, I almost feel that with every option in the game, Shell Smash is almost completely outclassed as a boosting move. Shift Gears makes a physical sweeper nearly as threatening with it's +1 Atk, +2 Spd, and it does not cause a bulky Pokemon to become frail, or using up an item slot on something like White Herb, thus making the Pokemon a lot more threatening in my eyes. Additionally, on the special side, there are moves like Quiver Dance and Tail Glow that, while not as strong for straight sweeping as a Shell Smash, are different enough and are significantly better for any bulk oriented set. And that's only a few boosting moves.

Basically, I feel that my point here is that, while some moves may stick out as amazing at first glance, almost no move will ever completely outclass all others, at least as long as we limit its natural movepool. As such, I will once more state that I believe Bulky Offense is the way to go. Being strong enough to threaten with a big boost or super powerful attack, but not strong enough to sweep without one, and bulky enough to be a tank or supporter with the correct investment, but not so much so that it is impossible to take down.

As many people said, I think we need to strike a balance. The fact just is though, that the offensive side is easier to overpower than the defensive side. So, as I said in my first post, something with better bulk that offensive stats, but very good speed would probably be the best rout to take. It would allow the Pokemon to fairly effectively run all kinds of roles, but really forces it to specialize to be effective, and at least provides some basic direction, such that it does not end up broken solely on the account of its unpredictability.

 

[noobiess]

I think it would be the most intresting to make it a bulky sweeper.
It shouldn't be really fast, because then spore would be used too much.
When CAP2 is a slow bulky sweeper it could have supporting moves, but also attacking moves. Therefore the diversity of the chosen sketchmove would be higher.

 

[zarator]

I agree with Reachzero in that this Pokémon should likely be offensive. The reason is very simple, indeed. With just one "Sketch slot" available, not a single support move will be worth it, assuming our "sketchmon" has access to nothing else.

Let's take hazards for example. Will our CAP be able to use Stealth Rock better than Tyranitar? Or Spikes better than Ferrothorn? Or Toxic Spikes better than Tentacruel? Or Wish better than Jirachi? For any single support move out there, chances are there will be an OU Pokémon completely designed for it which will outperform CAP2 completely.

On the offense, though, it gets a lot more interesting. Sure, Volcarona may be able to pull off Quiver Dance better than CAP2. But CAP2 can as well Tail Glow, Coil, Shift Gear, or Dragon Dance. Assuming its stats, typing, ability, and movepool support this kind of diversity, CAP2 won't be outclassed at any single boosting move just because it has access to each one of them, so the opponent is unaware of what CAP2 can do at first (think Swords Dance Lucario vs Nasty Plot Lucario, but worse).

As for status? Spore immediately springs to mind. Will our CAP favor Spore over a boosting move? I'm pretty positive it won't, should we want it to. In other words, if it has a bulky offensive spread (not too bulky, not too offensive), and it lacks any boosting move besides the Sketch slot, chances are CAP2 will give up on Spore most likely. If you don't believe so, ask this to yourselves: how often would you swap Quiver Dance for Spore on Volcarona? Not very often, right?

A similar argument goes for recovery moves. What's the point of using Recover, when you can do jack shit otherwise (i.e. inconsistent offense, non-existent support, insufficient defenses). Even Porygon2, the epitome of "pure Recover + offense bulky Pokémon", struggles to find a place on most teams, because it can't do anything else and is (pun unintended) just a sitting duck.

In the end, the most interesting route for us to pursue, IMO, is: what happens when a Pokémon has access to any single boosting move in the game and has the stats to pull each of them off decently enough to be a legitimate OU threat? Eat your heart out, Mew.


P.S.: If someone suggests Baton Pass as a move along with the Sketch slot somewhere in the process, I will cry.

 

[bananarchy]

We should also look at the possibility of giving it a second egg group - obviously it has to be in Field to be able to breed with Smeargle (the only canon way of learning Sketch once it seems) but we could give it various quality egg moves that aren't available alongside Sketch - this allows us to really tailor the process, allowing move x and move y together, but not move x and move z.

But smeargle can pass down any combination of egg moves. Also, since the point of this CAP is sketch, I can't imagine any scenario in which smeargle wouldn't be the father. A second egg group would be more trouble than it's worth- it isn't necessary for moves, it wouldn't be needed to justify most typings (all types except ghost and dragon appear in field already), and if we did add another egg group for flavor, the CAP would have to be female-only to avoid passing down potentially illegal egg move combinations to other pokemon in that group (if we're worried about that kind of thing)

role-wise, I think clefable is a model worth considering: it can do many things, but really only one thing at a time
For the CAP, though, we'd want better stats (relative to Clefable), especially speed, to compensate for all the power creep since gen 1

 

[Spork]

I don't think you can even begin to say at this point that boosting moves will be more or less the only viable sketch options on a bulky offensive poke, and what's more, I think that kinda defeats the point of having sketch as a concept in the first place. Even if it's purely offensive stat-wise, all-out-attacking sets, hazard-setting sets, and yes, even Spore-sets are going to work just as well. If its offensive STABs are decent enough (and they're going to have to be really bloody good if Tail Glow / Shift Gear etc. are being considered as the Sketch move at all), then Spore is a perfectly viable move, as it's going to let you take out whatever STAB-resisting counter they carry and continue sweeping. Set-up sweepers generally have fairly major flaws.

@bananarchy Smeargle is almost useless in breeding generally, it rarely gets to pass down anything. If we don't say that Smeargle can pass down anything it wants, then it can't.

 

[Quilph]

As for status? Spore immediately springs to mind. Will our CAP favor Spore over a boosting move? I'm pretty positive it won't, should we want it to. In other words, if it has a bulky offensive spread (not too bulky, not too offensive), and it lacks any boosting move besides the Sketch slot, chances are CAP2 will give up on Spore most likely. If you don't believe so, ask this to yourselves: how often would you swap Quiver Dance for Spore on Volcarona? Not very often, right?

I really, really like the way zarator has tackled the "Spore problem." I was generally uneasy with this concept because I feared that nearly every Sketch move would be Spore, which makes for a very uninteresting concept from which little can be learned. There's no question that Spore, and sleep moves more generally, are coveted like no other. Around 90% of all Parasect, Smeargle, Breloom, and Amoonguss sets have the move. The popularity of Spore is completely undeniable.

Therefore, I think we should think of ways to discourage Spore whenever possible. Besides, we're already very familiar with the impact it has on gameplay, switching, items, etc. Therefore I am strongly in favor of using Volcarona as inspiration for the kind of CAP we want, specifically in the sense that if Volcarona were to get Spore or Quiver Dance but not both, it would go for QD each time. Essentially, if our CAP is more inclined to use anything other than Spore, then we're headed in the right direction. An offensive inclination seems to do this very well.

 

[zarator]

I don't think you can even begin to say at that boosting moves will be more or less the only viable sketch options, and what's more, I think that kinda defeats the point of having sketch as a concept in the first place. Even if it's purely offensive stat-wise, all-out-attacking sets, hazard-setting sets, and yes, even Spore-sets are going to work just as well. If its offensive STABs are decent enough (and they're going to have to be is Tail Glow / Shift Gear etc. are being considered as the Sketch move at all), then Spore is a perfectly viable move, as it's going to let you take out whatever counter they carry and continue sweeping. Set-up sweepers generally have fairly major flaws.

Spork, you clearly haven't get what I meant to say. For support options, you gotta remember you can only run one. Unless we randomly get a very specific design for CAP2, are you really going to get a Pokémon who can use:

Stealth Rock better than Heatran, Tyranitar, or Ferrothorn?
Spikes better than Skarmory or Ferrothorn?
Toxic Spikes better than Tentacruel or Forretress?
etc.

Remember that, most likely, CAP2 will have a very narrow movepool besides the "Sketch slot". It won't have Toxic Spikes AND Rapid Spin like Tentacruel, or Stealth Rock AND Spikes like Ferrothorn. It will probably have the Sketch move, plus some coverage options. This means that, for every single job out there, you will be able to find an OU Pokémon which can do it just better, if only because it has a perfect design for it (Wish Jirachi, for example) and CAP2 won't.

The fact you have not understood me is further reinforced by the fact you say:

If its offensive STABs are decent enough (and they're going to have to be is Tail Glow / Shift Gear etc. are being considered as the Sketch move at all), then Spore is a perfectly viable move, as it's going to let you take out whatever counter they carry and continue sweeping.

You won't be able to Spore and sweep like you say, because then you won't be able to use Quiver Dance, or Tail Glow, or Dragon Dance, etc. Like I said before, would you give up Quiver Dance for Spore on Volcarona, even if you could? If yes, how often?

 

[RotationalBasis]

But at the same time, wouldn't it be awful if every once in a while you came in with your Rock Blast Rhyperior or Water Spout Jellicent expecting to completely wipe out a threat to your team, and Volcarona just Spored you and kept on going. Surely you can't suggest that even if Volcarona had Spore, it would never use it?

Spore Volcarona would still manage to be a threat with either Life Orb or Expert Belt, it's just another approach with a different outcome (ie. more frail, can incapacitate a counter).

In other words, neither Spore nor Quiver Dance alone are so awe inspiring they eclipse every other option. Should we be worried that there is a move out there that will outshine every other when given to CAPmon? If there is one, I'm sure Spore and Quiver Dance are not it.

 

[Spork]

If yes, how often?

Sometimes. Spore the counter, deal damage with LO Fiery Dance/Bug Buzz/Hidden Power until they bring in someone who can revenge you. Volcarona with Quiver Dance still isn't beating those that hard counter it, so it might as well Spore and Fiery Dance enough boosts to sweep outright. Sweep in the way Mixape/Starmie etc sweep. If the opponent brings in someone who can revenge you, switch out.

Volcarona isn't the best example though, because our CAP is potentially going to have more speed / less staying power / better STABs. Also, please, I understood you perfectly. I'm sorry if I offended you, but I don't much enjoy being patronised.

 

[viol and bass]

No matter what direction we take with CaP2, it's not going to be defined solely by its Sketch slot, because there's no way to allow this and still have a good Pokémon on our hands while also learning about the metagame. You say, Zarator, that it will have an extremely narrow movepool outside of its Sketch slot. And, understandably, the advantage of this is to make it truly unpredictable when it enters the field of battle. But a Pokémon with decent stats and a single move, even it it can be any move at all, is not going to be a good Pokémon. So it will have other moves, and those moves will be useful. So how can you say that it will necessarily be outclassed in a supporting role? There are plenty of ways to avoid this. I would argue that allowing it to be outclassed in any supporting role it attempts would in a way belittle the concept we're working with. We should make it decent enough, of stats, of abilities (could a Prankster Pokémon, for instance, be made to effectively use its Sketch slot for a support move?), and of movepool, to be able to attempt a variety of roles.

Slapping together a generic somewhat bulky Pokémon with essentially nothing outside of its Sketch slot is not the way we're going to go about that, if I understand anything about this concept.

 

[Interrobang]

Should CAP 2 be offensively inclined, defensively inclined, or primarily supporting? Keeping that question in mind, what is the best mold for CAP 2 to follow in order to achieve sufficient diversity in the use of Sketch and not heavy bias to one mode of Sketch-use over all others?

It seems to me that since CAP2 will likely have fairly average stats, a particularly devious player could always use CAP2 in a different role than is expected (with various results), and I feel this should be encouraged. This would simply be done by not over-biasing CAP2 in any of those three directions.

Assuming we do go for a more offensive inclination (as is also my preference), the usage of sketch will surely be determined by the natural movepool more than anything else. If CAP2 naturally learns any great boosting moves, it will likely sketch a strong attack, and if CAP2 naturally learns any great attacks, it will likely sketch a powerful boosting move. I don't want to poll jump by suggesting how we should structure the movepool at this stage, but I think that regardless of what our decision is now, we should realise that whether the different usages of sketch are balanced will most likely be determined at the movepool stage (in my opinion).

 

[Bork]

Should CAP 2 be primarily offensive or defensive or supporting?

Contrsry to the popular belief, apparently, I think that this pokemon should be defensive... I think that's the only way that this pokemon could abuse all of its options. Making it offensive only gives a pokemon with a variety of stat up options.... A defensive pokemon can still abuse those--in fact, it actually could make it more informative as there aren't many defensive pokemon with that kind of offensive ability (Cloyster and Scrafty are the only ones that come to mind) but it also would be able to abuse the support options available to it like Spore or Taunt.

How do you balance a single of any move in the game on a Pokemon?

I'm not sure if this is considered poll jumping, but making this pokemon weak to Stealth Rock might help balance it. Volcarona is the only viable pokemon with Quiver Dance, but it gets massacred by Rocks. I doubt that this will get 135/100 Special Attacking stats but Volcarona also is fairly predictable. I don't think this thing needs a double weakness to be balanced, SR might be a way to limit its ability.

What can Smeargle teach us about Sketch that will be relevant to creating CAP 2?

I think Smeargle teaches us one important thing--you can have all the options in the world but if the stats limit you, you'll still become incredible predictable. Smeargle is going to be Spore+Baton Pass/Shell Smash or Spore+Spikes. With merely an offensive set this will be Killer Stat Up+2 Offensive stats and filler, every single time, except for that random Spore user being a rebel. With a defensive pokemon you could go the stat up roll (Like the above pokemon) and that would still likely by the primary set. But its other options would also be more viable so if you wanted a solid Spikes or Spore or Wish user that can surprise opponents than this pokemon could still do it. I think we inadvertently limit our options when we give this pokemon an offensive spread.

 

[smallvizier]

A defensive Pokemon needs reliable recovery, at least one attack strong enough to keep it from becoming set-up bait, strong typing, and something to do with the free turns it generates (phazing, entry hazards, status attacks, etc.).

We're already really close to this.

• strong typing would be a good way of differentiating CaP2 from Smeargle. It's also more interesting than another 'Normal.'
• if we're taking a wholly or partially offensive route, CaP2 will already have some decent attacks (BP 60-90) to allow it to make use of Shell Smash and Quiver Dance.
• Recovery can come from Sketch.

That leaves 'something to do.' There are plenty of moves which would be useful on a defensive set (with Recover), but wouldn't effect the balance of other strategies. Toxic, Protect, Substitute; perhaps even Light Screen and Reflect.

I believe a mix of attacking and defensive strategies is both achieveable and interesting. It would certainly stay true to a concept which is meant to have variability and creativity at its heart.

if it has a bulky offensive spread (not too bulky, not too offensive), and it lacks any boosting move besides the Sketch slot, chances are CAP2 will give up on Spore most likely.

You see this as a reason to give up on Spore. I see it as a reason to include some minor boosting moves in its set (Hone Claws?) - then it would have to choose between

• hitting hard straight away with V-create/Sacred Fire
• boosting really quickly with Shell Smash/Quiver Dance and its movepool attacks
• using Spore, boosting more conservatively and using its movepool attacks.

What's the point of using Recover, when you can do jack shit otherwise (i.e. inconsistent offense, non-existent support, insufficient defenses).

As above - be brave! Give it support moves, make specifically chosen defense and support roles possible (Baton passing weak boosting moves, setting up screens). As I pointed out in my 'lessons from Smeargle' above, the key reason that Smeargle isn't used more is that we already have specialists for many of the roles it might take on. I think the threat of making a broken 'mon is actually a lot lower than some here think -

As long as we control the movepool - which is not the same as keeping it completely empty - we can select which roles it will potentially excel in. Where we don't specifically aid it, it will be outclassed and thus unused.

 

[Wichu]

also: who cares if this Pokemon only learns Sketch once? Hearts Scales exist. we obviously account for this info by allowing Wood Hammer Torterra to be used.

Make Sketch an egg move. Problem solved.

 

[Adamnsm1]

Something that people are saying quite a lot is that offensive is inevitable/has more options, and I just don't see this. Sure, a lot of support roles need help in making them viable, but isnt that just as true for offensive roles? If CAPmon gets horrible STAB(s), and few coverage moves, will Shell Smash or similar boosting moves really be able to do anything? Think Volcorona at +6 lacking HP ground: Heatran completely walls it, despite all its boosts. Similarly, if because of this lack of coverage moves, CAPmon uses its sketch towards that purpose, will it be able to sweep without the stat boost? Unlikely. However, there are an incredible number of different support strategies, each of which is played vary differently from each other. There's wishpassing, subseeding, dual screens, hazarding, spinning, etc etc, and hence more options of what to use as your Sketch rather than a few boosting moves and likely one of 2 moves, one for physical and one for special.

Support roles are actually much more varied than sweeper ones. Sweepers all tend to run the same sets: Choice item/Stat upper + 3/4 Attacks dictated around STAB coverage. The only exception to this is some bulky sweepers that run 2 attacks and some form of recovery in that extra moveslot. Support roles, however, have many different tactics to choose from. Yes, CAPmon will probably never be able to set up entry hazards as well as Forretress or Tentacruel, but does it need to? When CAPmon comes in, ideally, you dont know what it can do. Will it set up a Shell Smash or will it set up a screen? A Shell Smash would be far more deadly to your team: If you predict wrong and he smashes then he gets the opportuninty to set up ANOTHER smash, which no matter what other factors is deadly. However, if he does something like set up a screen, thats not as immediately threatening. So, you send in your Smash counter. But wait, he set up spikes instead. Thats now a guaranteed 2 layers of spikes, or a guaranteed Subseed, or whatever other set hes running. Which links back to my previous point about support diversity.

Additionally, offensive sets are more easily broken. Moves like shell smash and tail glow turn a mediocre offense into sweeping material, so if its sweeping material BEFORE the boosting move, it becomes insane afterwards. Support has no similar move, possibly other than spore, that can turn a good support pokemon into a ridiculous game-breaker.

This all means that we need to limit offensive ability and increase support ability, to get the most different uses out of sketch possible. And, even with a limited offensive ability, still leave the possibility for an offensive CAPmon if it wishes to dedicate itself down that path.

 

[Theorymon]

Okay, I really need to post here so that everyone understands. The most important questions we need to address right now are as follows:

Should CAP 2 be offensively inclined, defensively inclined, or primarily supporting? Keeping that question in mind, what is the best mold for CAP 2 to follow in order to achieve sufficient diversity in the use of Sketch and not heavy bias to one mode of Sketch-use over all others?
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Please focus on this question. Don't talk about abilities, don't talk about specific stats or how fast/slow/powerful/etc CAP 2 needs to be, and don't talk about special/physical bias. It's inevitable to talk about moves, since CAP 2 can learn any move, and they're relevant to the concept at this level.

I currently believe that bulky offense seems to present the best mold, as I mentioned before because of its versatility in options, but not being too heavily biased offensively or defensively such that it overwhelms OU. Please discuss why you agree or disagree with me, or what other possible molds would work. Also, provide examples and comparisons to other Pokemon so that you can back up your statements; we know how other Pokemon operate, and that can help us understand the eventual CAP 2 better.

At the moment, I think CAP 2 should lean towards bulky offense as Rising Dusk said. My main reasoning for this is that I think leaning towards bulky offense allows this CAP to be at its most versatile. Now while I say "Bulky Offense", I'm really imagining something whos offenses aren't great persay, but with the help of a set up move, it can sweep. At the same time, if we go the "bulky offense" route, then there can still be room for more supportive roles like setting up certain hazards if the user chooses to, leaving room for people to mold CAP 2 to fit their team. I think this CAP really needs to focus on making the move it chooses with Sketch Define the set. With a focus on bulky offense, we can easily do this with the many set up moves it can choose from, while at the same time giving it plenty of support options to help out more defensive teams. I'm not really fond of making CAP 2 defensive mostly because I think that may limit its amount of roles CAP 2 can pull off (this is assuming no major abilities because its pretty early!).

 

[smallvizier]

PS - I think there's an important question which has been asked by neither Korski nor Rising Dusk. Which direction for CaP2 will allow us to learn the most about pokemon, and about the metagame?

For me this is a direction where we balance fundamentally different sets. This will require an understanding (and discussion, and exploration) of the competitive value of each.

They do not all need to be equally powerful, equally popular, or equally successful. But they do all need to be viable, and they need to be different.

Making a sweeper is easy. Making a sweeper who is also a viable screener or sporeshuffler or dual screener - with the same stats - is hard and would make us look at the pokemon already performing these roles, then tailor CaP2 to fill the niches that remain.

Conclusion - bulky offense is indeed a nice sensible 'main role' for CaP2. But let's not close our mind to the beauty of this concept in the first place... we can only meet its vision (and its potential) if we allow some other movesets to be used on a frequent basis as well.

 

[LouisCyphre]

I'm just going to analyze a couple of common moves that people have mentioned for Sketching.

V-Create/Sacred Fire: By selecting a ridiculous offensive move, the CAP elects to assemble a Choice set, using STAB moves and what coverage its movepool provides.

Extremespeed/Mach Punch: The CAP elects to assemble a Choice or slow boosting set with priority, serving as either a priority revenge killer or toolbox as needed.

Shell Smash/Tail Glow/Gear Shift: The CAP assembles a "fast" boosting set, transforming into an offensive threat after a turn of setup.

Quiver Dance/Dragon Dance/Coil: The CAP creates a "slow" boosting set, maintaining bulk while accumulating offensive boosts.

Cosmic Power/Acupressure: The CAP creates a defensive boosting set, becoming significantly more difficult to bring down while also becoming more dangerous offensively. (Stored Power/Lucky Chant may be considered if this option is to become viable.)

Spore: The CAP incapacitates a key foe, and uses other, movepool setup moves or support moves on the free turn.

Anything I'm missing?