1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 1 - Concept Submissions

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by capefeather, Sep 10, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. vroomvroom918

    vroomvroom918

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Messages:
    12
    Name: Taste of Their Own Medicine
    General Description: Many Pokemon are able to counter certain types of opponents with ease (eg ko physical/special walls or act as them), but will be easily ko'ed or walled by many others. The Taste, however, would be able to utilize the opponents' strengths and turn these strengths against them, whatever they may be, to fill many roles.
    Justification: This Pokemon could fill a unique niche as a versatile opponent that could potentially act as both a sweeper and a wall in certain conditions. It could also help us learn more about the metagame and what specifically makes certain pokemon "strong" and others "weak"
    Questions To Be Answered:

    • What can we learn about what makes a Pokemon strong?
    • What can be defined as a "strength"? Are there many aspects to this definition?
    • What strengths or aspects of strength should The Taste be able to utilize from the opponent (eg abilities, stats, stat changes, etc)?
    • Would such a versatile Pokemon be overpowering in the metagame?

    Explanation: There are a few ways in the current metagame that one can utilize the opponent's strengths to take them down. The most prevalent of these measures is the move Foul Play, which attacks the user, but bases the damage on the opponent's attack stat. However, this is useful only against Pokemon with a decently high attack stat or many boosts, and therefore its usefulness is limited mostly to sweepers that are designed to kill you before you can kill them, although the latter can be fairly easily done in certain situations with this move. This attack is near useless against walls or special sweepers though. But what if there was a way to take a special sweeper's SpA or a wall's defenses/HP and somehow use these things against them? Or take any fast sweeper's Spe and give those lightning fast opponents a taste of their own medicine? This will likely involve the creation of new moves or abilities, but the outcome would be a highly versatile Pokemon able to quickly adapt to any situation and take the opponent's momentum from right under their feet.
  2. BlueStar99

    BlueStar99

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2012
    Messages:
    34
    Concept: Playstyle Reviver
    General Description: A Pokemon that can provide support for forgotten or neglected playstyles like hail or gravity.
    Justification: This concept aims to understand playstyles and see why maybe some, even with the right support, fail. For example, Trick Room. It's OK, but it only lasts 5 turns. For example, imagine a Pokemon with an ability like Drizzle, but for Trick Room! Then you can take advantage of it to the fullest.
    Questions to be Answered:
    1. Why are some playstyles just not viable, even with the right support?
    2. How and why do some Pokemon soar to the top with the right field support?
    3. With this Pokemon, will field effects in the metagame be evenly distributed or will it still center around 1 or 2?
    4. Can strength of normally bad Pokemon change when having proper support?
    Explanation: This Pokemon can help us learn about the different now considered "bad" playstyles and field effects, wether they can soar with the right support, or still remain bad.
  3. Jplague

    Jplague

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2012
    Messages:
    8
    Name: Wallshatter-er
    General Description: An absolute monster of a mixed wallbreaker that is so effective at it's job that it forgot to invest in defenses.
    Justification: Built for teams that have trouble taking down defensive cores like Skarmbliss and Ferrocent. Purely an offensive poke.
    Questions To Be Answered:

    Would the community be benefited by a wallbreaker of this calibur?
    Can a pokemon only be a wallbreaker and not a sweeper?
    Can having weak defenses and mediocre speed justify the use of huge mixed offensive stats?
    Could a pokemon overcome having horrendous defenses (and/or typing) and be a great wallbreaker?

    Explanation: Defensive cores exist for one sole purpose: to be an immovable object. So what happens when an unstoppable force and that unmovable object meet? That is what inspired me to create this thought. In my time as a battler I have seen countless teams making full use of well known defensive cores that, for lack of a better term, seemed impossible to beat through conventional means. That's where this fella comes in. Much like Deoxys-A he would have huge attack and SpAtk whereas his defenses are pretty much nil. I'm not saying to just clone deoxys into an OU form, I'm saying to make probably the best wallbreaker known to pokemon. Access to moves such as superpower and overheat to shatter walls but severely limit the ability to sweep. Like I said, this is NOT a sweeper, this is a destroyer. Meant to pick apart an opponent's defensive core and nothing much more. A glass cannon that will blow you away.

    A few factors to consider limiting this monster of a wallbreaker would be to have horrendous defenses (thinking glass cannon again) and/or his speed to where he could either severely wear down walls OR kill them off entirely. He may also have potential as a scarfer or a trapper, but his main job would be to break walls.
  4. kalamadude

    kalamadude

    Joined:
    May 19, 2010
    Messages:
    209
    I'm going to throw my support (aside from my own entry, ha) behind Birkal's Perfect Nemesis. I thought the Voodoom CAP was a really entertaining and enlightening one, and I love the idea of tying ourselves to a specific part of the metagame right from the get-go. It gives a sharp focus to the discussion, so there is little miscommunication, but it can be taken in a wide variety of directions. I'd love to bring up the usage of some favorite Pokémon who doesn't have the niche it needs due to not being that perfect counter to some unavoidable threat (Slowbro comes to mind as a fun candidate).

    If anything, I feel like designing a Pokémon to be perfectly countered by a good not great threat would be more interesting than building a perfect partner to a good not great threat. We can more carefully tailor our CAP so that it will be countered by our chosen counter and ONLY that Pokémon (well). It would be very satisfying to see an underrated threat yanked to the forefront to deal with our creation.

    Though I still firmly believe that we should give a shot at making a non-spectacular CAP Pokémon for once (like my One Trick Pony), if we were to set our sights on building another powerhouse, I think doing so with a perfect real counter in mind would be the most entertaining fashion to do it (not to mention beneficial to the metagame).
  5. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2010
    Messages:
    330
    Well, I guess I’ll take a moment to respond to BMB’s criticisms.


    My concept: Dare to be Different
    I’m not going to pretend. My concept would be tough (not impossible) to execute. Every Pokémon on Smogon has a standard set, even gimmicky stuff like Spinda. As you noted, this concept almost requires us to create a Pokémon with no standard set and comprised almost entirely of gimmicky options. In this respect, we would have no precedent or framework to fall back on. We would have to rely on theories and conjectures to help us create this Pokémon, and even after all of our precautions, there is a chance we may outright fail.

    This concept comes with a huge risk. I will not try to convince you otherwise. However, with this huge risk comes a huge reward. Given we succeed, we will have created a Pokémon unlike any before it. I am not exaggerating here. There are Pokémon who fit the bill of “One Trick Pony” and “Jeckyll and Hyde” reasonably well (Cloyster and Lucario come to mind respectively) but there is no Pokémon that completely lacks a standard, go-to set. I feel like creating such a Pokémon would, if nothing else, be a monument to the CAP community’s ingenuity and adaptability.

    Of course these are high hopes, and hopes don’t amount to much if they do not come to pass; if we attempt this concept and fail, it could still be a valuable addition to the CAP collection, but we would have learned more from most of the other proposed concepts. I have been sitting on this concept for a while and I have waited until now to share it because I feel we may finally be able to do what this CAP concept would ask of us. What makes me believe that? Necturna. When the CAP community attempted to create a Pokémon that could learn any single move in the game, it stepped into uncharted territory. There has never been a Pokémon with that sort of versatility, so when we took on that concept, we had no precedent to fall back on. No reference Point. No North Star. But we did it. I feel the CAP community managed to make a Pokémon with access to any move in the game a balanced OU threat, and that is a huge accomplishment. I feel that since we were able to create Necturna, a Pokémon with nearly unlimited options, we may be able to create a Pokémon without a single “best option”, which I feel is a taller order. Hopefully, by accepting this concept and completing the CAP, we can prove to ourselves that few things are truly out of the CAP community’s reach.

    Now being able to brag about what we accomplished Is fun and dandy, but the learning experience should always take precedence. I feel I did a fair job of explaining the questions that we can answer with this CAP, but so have many other users with their own respective CAP concepts. The reason I feel this concept is superior to all others proposed is because, with this concept, we have a real chance of discovering a new strategy or gimmick which may have a direct and tangible impact on today’s metagame. With concepts like “Time Capsule” and “Risky Business”, all we will probably learn is a theoretical sense of “why certain niche’s disappeared from the metagame” or “how we balance risk in battle”. This is not a knock against these two concepts- they are much in line with past CAP concepts and they pose interesting questions. However, they are restrictive in terms of tangible metagame impact because, like BMB mentioned, they are built with the concept of a Pokémon with certain characteristics in mind, and it is difficult to translate the traits of an entire Pokémon into OU. My concept is more focused on individual sets, which are housed within the shell of a Pokémon. Sets are more easily transferred into different metagames than entire Pokémon for obvious reasons (smaller rocks). During this process, we may discover a new gimmicky strategy. If a currently existing Pokémon has the complementary movepool and the complementary stat spread to run a similar set, it can immediately start utilizing that set and make an impact on, if not the OU, at least the NU, RU, UU, or the Balanced Hackmons metagame. This would mark a notable intersection between the theoretical CAP world and the tangible, competitive metagames of OU Pokémon.

    BMB also raised concerns over poll hopping. Now, if I remember correctly, poll hopping is jumbling up the order of the CAP process, forcing us to work on movepools before typing and Stats before abilities and whatnot. If that is not what poll hopping is, pardon me and ignore this paragraph. Anyways, I can see why this may occur and unfortunately I don’t know how to stop it. I believe that it shouldn’t be a huge issue as long as we iron out what type of sets fit this concept in the concept review part of the process, but none of us can know for sure. However, I think the worst case scenario would be that we would have to agree on some required moves for the CAP before we discuss typing and stats, but I believe that would be the worst case scenario and we probably be able to avoid something like that.

    I may have droned on a bit back there. If so, sorry. In closing, if you feel that this concept is either not feasible or just stupid, don’t support it. However, if you think that we as a community can create a Pokémon that operates under different rules and follows no precedent, this concept is for you. I think we can make something great here, but it will take our collective might to do it.


    PS: BMB and I both seem disposed to long ass posts!! LOL
  6. funerallaughter

    funerallaughter

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Messages:
    17
    Name: Core-Relation

    General Description: A core-pivot: a CAPmon which introduces extra flexibility by bridging multiple cores in-battle.

    Justification: Tried and tested cores have been essential to consider when creating a team. Whether one is up against an offensive or defensive style core, once one understands the core, the proper steps are taken and they can be taken down. What happens, however, when one is able to, mid-battle, change one’s play style and adjust the core? What if one were able to use identical teams with highly differing approaches? This CAPmon would not only help the community to figure how to approach core creation, but it explores a new play-style altogether. In a way, this concept draws from previous concepts, namely Voodoom and Tomohawk; were we able to learn from those experiments?

    Questions To Be Answered:

    • How should a core be defined and to what extent can that definition hold?
    • Are interchangeable cores effective in standard play?
    • Does flexibility equate fluidity?
    • Were we able to effectively utilize lessons learned from the “Perfect Mate” and “Momentum” projects?
    Explanation:

    (I may be shooting myself in the foot.) While I found the concept all novel and hunky-dory in my head, as I wrote out the description, it seemed to me that the idea was an amalgamation of the Voodoom and Tomohawk projects.

    Voodoom, I believe, would share in the idea that this mon should have the “perfect partners” in mind in its design. I suppose this would be the “turned up to 11” version. The way I see to approach this is to define and assign basic cores of which the CAPmon is then suited to fill, not certain pokemon. From specific to general.

    Tomohawk’s momentum can be seen in the “play-style shift” aspect of the CAPmon. You would ideally want to hold momentum and fluidity in dramatically shifting from hyper defensive to hyper offensive, for example. Can you shift while holding that surprise value? Can you be able to hold that upper hand? In this case, we want to be able to gain and retain momentum for cores, not for all like Tomohawk. From general to specific.
    To the “utilize lessons learned from the ‘Perfect Mate’ and ‘Momentum’ projects,” we should be able to expand from those experiments and apply them to this one.

    Is the concept still vague? It feels so solid in my head O.O
  7. Delta Nite

    Delta Nite

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2009
    Messages:
    85
    I'd like to express my support to Perfect Nemesis. A lot of Pokémon have the potential to be far more used than they currently are. Don't you ever feel like, let's say, Zapdos is only a tad from being a top notch battler? What if the missing advantage could be being the most reliable counter for a specific threat? Would that be enough to turn Zapdos OU again?
  8. CiteAndPrune

    CiteAndPrune

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    203
    I have some reservations that hopefully will help the others refine and improve their concepts. <.< There's just something I can't ignore with these...


    - "Taste of Their Own Medicine"

    The first thought that came to my mind wasn't Foul Play, but Imposter Ditto. And we know how that works. Then there's also Heart Swap (and maybe Punishment). At any rate, I don't think we want to go the route of Imposter Ditto but I don't see a way we can design this CAP without it being purely outclassed at what it does by the Imposter - in short... there's probably not much to learn from this CAP, sadly.


    - "Dare to Be Different"

    I think you're trying a bit too hard to be different for the sake of being different itself. Also, Pokemon get their classifications from what they are good at, and if we set about making a Pokemon that cannot perform adequately in any of the currently established categories (offense, defense, support, annoyer or any variations) won't uncover a niche we haven't found yet, but rather exclude so many options from the get-go that we cannot make a successful Pokemon at all.

    In fact, there is a number of Pokemon who don't have 'best sets' that Gamefreak already provided us with: Caterpie, Weedle, Magikarp, Wurmple... you know where they hang? Outside the competitive sphere. Without stats or moves to perform in any role, nobody goes through the trouble of finding a use for them. If you are still serious about your concept, you'll have to consider this route and how to avoid it, before anything else.


    - "Jack of All Trades"

    .... and master of none is adequately represented in Smeargle even before Mew. But if you were to give all the movepool options along with stats, ability, and typing to abuse them, you'd get a King of All Trades result. And there is only one Arceus (Multitype notwithstanding). I don't think we stand much to learn from making an Arceus Mk.2 (or even a Mew Mk.2, or Krillo Mk.2, depending on your viewpoint).


    - The plethora of weather-centric and anti-weather concepts

    There's nothing inherently wrong with them as such, but given how Mollux turned out, I would personally prefer to explore other concepts than weather for this upcoming CAP. This is why I'm supporting the non-weather oriented concepts and I'll be voting according to that preference.


    I hope nothing I've just written comes off as too harsh. >.< Once again, good luck to everyone participating.
  9. Toa Tahu

    Toa Tahu

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2011
    Messages:
    257
    Name: Pinch Hitter

    General Description: This Pokemon would be able to use the Pinch Berries effectively in order to garner numerous stat boosts and sweep the opponent.

    Justification: Pinch Berries are interesting item which can quickly turn an otherwise unthreatening sweeper into a monster. However, they are not used very much in OU due to the existence of Choice items and Life Orb. Many of the best abusers of them are not used in OU. OHwever, what if we made an OU-viable Pokemon capable of using the Pinch Berries to its advantage?

    Questions To Be Answered:
    -What is the most ideal Pinch Berry for an offensive or defensive set?
    -What is the best way to take advantage of Pinch Berries?
    -How will this CAP deal with the HP loss required to activate the Pinch Berries?
    -Can this CAP use other non-Pinch Berries effectively?

    Explanation:
    CAP has really done nothing like this before. We haven't had a chance to this gen at least. with the Pinch Berries only being released with BW2. Currently the most viable one of the bunch is Salac, which gives you essentially a Choice Scarf boost with the ability to switch moves. The real reason that the Pinch Berries aren't used is that you essentially need to shoot yourself in the foot to use them, getting yourself down to 25% HP. This leaves you incredibly vulnerable to revenge-killing. If we can find a way around that, I think that this concept can be considered successful.
  10. generic name

    generic name

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    36
    I agree with CiteandPrune about disliking those concepts.
    The trick room/gravity idea sounds interesting, yes we already have reuniclus and landorus, but they are not teams on their own and could use teammates. Those seem like they could be interesting and original without tying too hard to be original and totally shake up ou. CAPA4 should have some effect, and be good (maybe tr/gravity could be a bit gimmicky) but not crazily good or a counter to a play-style. Weather is popular, but that doesn't mean it has to be made worse.
  11. B.Reinquist

    B.Reinquist

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    30
    Concept: To Evolve or not to Evolve? That is the question.

    Description: A pokemon that in it's unevolved stage can compete as a solid wall, but as a sweeper after evolution.

    Justification: With the rare exceptions, Pre-Evo Pokemon do not fare well in the OU environment. This concept would bring 2 new Pokemon into the meta game, both the evolved and unevolved form functioning in different roles. We could potentially learn what constitutes a competitive Pre-Evo and test if there are any ways besides Eviolite to achieve that goal.

    Questions to be Answered:
    • What factors constitute a viable pre-evo form in the OU metagame?
    • Can a pre-evo be more popular than it's fully evolved form?
    • Can defensive Pokemon function effectively in offensive roles?
    • Is using Eviolite the only thing that can make a Pre-Evo form viable?
    • What balance between bulk/power is most suitable for a Pre-Evo Pokemon?
    • If given a choice between a bulky form and a offensive form, which would see more use? Or would one balance out the other?

    Explanation: Pre-Evolution Pokemon have very rarely been used in standard play before 5th Gen. The introduction of Eviolite gave hope to some that their Wartortle could actually be used, but unfortunately none really lived up to this hype. The Eviolite item sees a lot of use in the LC metagame, but there are few viable users in OU, with Porygon2 and Dusclops being among the few seen, but they lack several key features that really give them purpose on teams (ie. others do it better). As such I propose a CAP project that focuses more on the 1st (or 2nd) form of a Pokemon, in an attempt to bring a Pre-Evo Pokemon to competitive play. Secondly, the final evolution would juxtapose it's first form by acting as a potent sweeper, with a set of skills that allowed it to partially function as a check for some aspects of it's pre-evolved form. As such, my concept would look at the Pre-Evolution form as well as it's final stage to see which would become more competitively viable. Unevolved Defensive or Evolved Offensive? There's the rub.
  12. srk1214

    srk1214 is a giant squid of anger
    is a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2010
    Messages:
    1,994
    While Perfect Nemesis certainly seems to have clear outlines combined with the flexibility of choosing what we will be "nemesis"-izing, I am not entirely sold. Birkal points out it is largely derived from Voodoom's Perfect Mate concept, and all I can remember from Voodoom is how we failed to make the Perfect Mate for what we were actually intending to help. I'm not sure we can avoid the same fate again. Say we were out to get Politoed as Birkal suggested, and we made Gastrodon. We'd have made the "fatal" error in concept of having actually failed in multiple ways. First, Gastrodon fails to counter Defensive Politoed as it gets Toxic-ed, and second obviously HP Grass is an issue on Offensive sets (mostly Specs.) Beyond that however, Gastrodon actually does it's job of being a nemesis much better to Rotom-W than it does to Politoed. I just don't want to repeat the drawbacks of Perfect Mate.
  13. ShinyDreamer

    ShinyDreamer

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2012
    Messages:
    53
    Ok, so it doesn't have to be immune to everything. I'll go back and edit so that it suits its name a bit better. In the meantime, I support LatiasInDisguise's idea, the high-risk-high-reward idea, and the last-ditch idea (don't remember who posted those).

    Done! I am now also supporting my own idea! Reread!
  14. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2010
    Messages:
    330
    Well, actually, caterpie, wurmple, and those other Pokémon you named do have a “best set”. Its just that the best set isn’t very good. There is a difference. For example, a Wurmple’s best set would be Bug Bite/ Poison Sting/ String Shot/ Tackle, which would be strictly superior to a set of Poison Sting/ String Shot/ Tackle. Both of these sets are terrible, which is why wurmple sees no competitive use. However if you were forced to use a Wurmple, it does have a best, standard set. My concept wants to create a Pokémon without such a standard set by making it such that if one of the Pokémon’s sets becomes standard, it will become less useful because it loses a surprise factor or some other variable. My concept is basically a play on the classic versatility mon but with a better defined end product. Yes there are simpler ways of doing a versatility mon, and I think that is where you get the feeling that I’m “trying to be different for the sake of being different”. I can understand that position, but I actually made my concept different because there is a very specific thing I want to investigate. In my opinion, Necturna is and always will be the epitome of a versatilitymon/lure. I feel that if we are going to make another Pokémon under the versatility/surprise umbrella, it needs to be more specific and directioned than it would have needed to be pre-Necturna. My concept simply focuses in on one possible way to do this.

    As for the question of “is this even doable”, I maintain that I believe so, but I don’t know for sure. We know that there Pokémon have sets that would be less effective if they were extremely common (expert belt Latios, Magma Storm Heatran), but no Pokémon is entirely composed of these sort of “Gimmicky strategies”. Gimmicks can’t stand on their own, and rely heavily on the opponent’s perceptions and preconceived notions to succeed. These preconceived notions generally come from their knowledge of the Pokémon and its perceived “standard sets”. But what I wonder is could you replace this one standard set with five, six, or seven gimmicks to get a similar result? Could a Pokémon comprised of enough of these gimmicky strategies stand on its own? I think those are fair questions, and I hope they show that this concept isn’t trying to be different for the sake of being different.

    Outside of my own concept, my favorites right now are Utility Counter Take 2 and Dedicated Lure. Either way, I hope everyone the best and I hope we have an interesting process ahead of us.
  15. Spork

    Spork

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2011
    Messages:
    409
    @Dare to Be Different: you know, an OU capable "gimmick" strategy is enough of a unique selling point on its own. We could create a usable shell bell aron or power trick shuckle type pokemon, and it could also have access to various other gimmicks, but a standard set like that doesn't mean it hasn't dared to be different.


    Time for a late entry! Here's a fun twist on a CAP classic:

    Name: Centraliser (or, the Pro-Metagame Pokemon)

    General Description: A pokemon whose existence allows for the solidification and reinforcement of the current top 10 most used pokemon.

    Justification: Many proposals for CAP concepts follow the trend of attempting to support far-out niches. I propose that we drop the niches altogether, and create a pokemon that simply helps reinforce the metagame we already have. The philosophy of this proposal is not chaos, but placidity; we must attempt to create a metagame that is extremely stable. The potential reasons for this are manifold. A metagame with a centralised, uncontested core allows teams to be more predictable, placing a greater focus on in-battle strategy and prediction. In a metagame where niche team archetypes exists, battle matchups can often be case of rock-paper-scissors, depending on the appearance of certain threats. This concept would hopefully attempt to remove that element, and reduce the number of viable team archetypes. This concept can also allow for the further development of the metagame and the central pokemon as they already exist. In the created metagame, pokemon will hopefully be less likely to waste moveslots in order to deal with obscure threats, and can instead optimise EVs and movepools to simply focus on the most common threats only, perhaps allowing for more creative choices as each pokemon is less bound by needing to be prepared for 50+ threats.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    Is a more centralised metagame more conducive to competitiveness than a less centralised metagame?
    Is it possible to introduce a powerful new pokemon without greatly altering the spread of usage?
    Is it possible to make a centralising pokemon that is not broken?
    Is a metagame with less variety less enjoyable?

    Explanation:
    The keyword here is reinforcement; the metagame is already centralised and so we must simply, as designers, play into that as much as possible. CAP4 will not act as an insurmountable threat to niche pokemon and playstyles - it will merely contribute to the many pokemon that already make these niches less usable. In theory, a successful Centraliser would actually be less powerful than a successful Decentraliser, as reinforcing pre-existing structures is significantly easier than destroying them altogether. Admittedly, the "current top 10" choice is somewhat arbitrary. I don't think it's important for every pokemon in the top 10 to be benefited by CAP4, and I would say that we are still helping the concept if we are positively affecting the usage of pokemon in the top 20 or so. We'd have to judge it on a case-by-case basis. I would say that the best idea is to focus on solidifying the usage of the pokemon towards the very top end of usage; Politoed, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Dragonite etc. should be be priorities.

    There are many ways we can go about this. We can positively affect pokemon in the top ten by making CAP4 a great teammate to them, or by making it so it is checked by them. For example, we could make a pokemon that is a great rain attacker and Scizor partner, but is easily countered by Ferrothorn and Tyranitar. We can also negatively affect pokemon outside of the top ten by making CAP4 either a great check to them, or a pokemon that simply outclasses them. For example, we could make a pokemon that easily crushes sun teams, or a pokemon that outclasses Jolteon in every feasible way. In the end, however, these are the only limits; we can make any crazy pokemon with any mad ability, stat spread or typing that we want, as long as it fulfils the concept. We do not necessarily have to build off of pre-existing pokemon in order to be pro-metagame, and we can be pro-metagame in whatever creative way we like.

    We must tread a very fine line between making a pokemon that does not directly threaten the currently centralised core, and yet is still usable enough that its presence alone will solidify centralisation. It is important, therefore, that the created pokemon is a major threat in itself, which means it will have to check several of the top threats. This doesn't have to negatively affect their usage, however; we could create a pokemon that is a great check to Dragonite, yet conversely is optimally effective when used in a team alongside Dragonite.

    Admittedly, it is more than likely that research WILL be hampered by the inevitably disproportionate usage of CAP4 in playtesting. However, it should follow that, were we to succeed, no pokemon would be knocked (far) from the top 10, and no obscure niche pokemon would jump in usage. CAP4 must widen the gap between the best of OU and the blurst of OU.
  16. Raikoben

    Raikoben

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Messages:
    49
    Name: 0 Damage
    General Description: A Pokemon with a combination of types and abilities that provides a lot of inmunities to other types
    Justification: We need a Pokemon that can switch into the battle without risk.
    Questions To Be Answered:
    • It's inmune to some tipes but has a good Def and S.Def that make it a total wall?
    • Can it be beat easily by neutral damage?
    • Theese inmunities cover neutral moves or super efectives moves?

    Explanation: There are some tipes (steel, ghost, flying, dark...) inmune to other types and some abilities with the same efect (levitate, Lightningrod, Sap sipper...) and the idea is combine them. Then, our Pokemon will have a lot of chances to enter the battle taking no damage or little bit and play its rol (sweeper, support...)



    English is not my main language. Hope you understand and I write all this rightly.
  17. CiteAndPrune

    CiteAndPrune

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    203
    @ForestFlameRunner: That's a nice reply. How would players respond to a CAP that can equally run any of a number of gimmicky sets? I think Fidgit already gave us some experience in this matter, although his core utility as a wall/supporter is far heavier established than what Dare to Be Different aims at. As such I wish your entry best of luck. ^_^

    @Spork: Centralizer?

    Do we REALLY need to buff Rain offense any more than it already is? Helping them remove their checks/counters/rival playstyles and develop 'double rain sweeper' in the same vein as previously 'double dragon'?

    I don't think we stand much to learn from a CAP aiming to Centralize the metagame as opposed to Decentralize it. Any game designer knows that centralization leads to stagnation and it takes the skill out of games, as over time everybody starts running the agreed-upon best team with the agreed-on best moves, that's powerful enough to blast through its checks. Last time I saw a Pokemon doing that kind of centralization, all of Garchomp, Excadrill, and Speed Boost Blaziken got the ticket to Ubers.

    There'd be prediction-mindgames still. But that's it. And even that would be up to individual players' ingenuity, not through any merit of the game itself. A balanced metagame but one that's not strongly centralized and allowing multiple viable playstyles to flourish - now that's a goal worth pursuing.

    .... so in short, you might want to rethink your Concept, Spork. It's not too late to try something different, isn't it?


    @Raikoben: Ghost/Dark + Wonderguard. There, done. Next please.
    On a more serious note... the real question is not whether we could make that kind of CAP (we sure would if we chose to) but whether or not unleashing that kind of immune-heavy wall into the metagame would be good. Or would it get instantly banned? That's not a career I'd wish for any CAP...


    ....... I must have too much time on my hands or something, replying to all submissions like this. XD But for what it's worth, and for the benefit of CAP (hopefully) more activity is better than less, isn't it?
  18. Birkal

    Birkal Caw.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris an Artistis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    CAP Head Mod

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2010
    Messages:
    3,702
    First of all, you read the concept incorrectly; we'd be creating the Perfect Nemesis, not the base Pokemon. We'd essentially create something like Politoed or Scizor that threatens OU in an attempt to raise usage of a specific, chosen, low Overused Pokemon. Also, the example you gave also fits in with the concept. Gastrodon certainly can't stop all of Politoed's sets, but it is generally regarded as one of the best Politoed counters. Its ability to counter Rotom-W actually supports this even further, since it shows that Gastrodon also has the ability to hinder the teammates of its Perfect Nemesis.

    Furthermore, your recollection of the Voodoom process seems to be biased with your own opinion. From the conversations I've had with multiple CAP members, Voodoom seems to have had one of the best concepts, where we ended up with a lot of knowledge. Although they failed at partnering Voodoom with Togekiss, they did succeed in matching it up in a great core with Zapdos. Even the CAP 11 Report praised the concept, despite it not doing the way everyone thought it would. Its those kind of surprises that interest me greatly. This concept is filled with them; it might not go the way we specifically plan it to go, but is that a bad thing? Humans learn through mistakes, and CAP is no different. We might end up nailing the Perfect Nemesis concept, or we might end up with something completely unexpected. Either way, we'll have had intelligent discussions on the current threats in OU, what it means to be a counter/check, and why certain Pokemon are currently out of favor.

    Anyways, I'm going to go back and finish up some revising before the deadline.
  19. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    2,277
    Ugh I have actually spent the entire day composing this reply

    How is that even possible

    If even Kyurem-B can't use two-turn moves effectively... I don't see that anything we can do could beat it. Gyarados uses Bounce purely because it has no better Flying STAB. I think all the questions that this concept brings up have been answered.

    Hm. I'm not the biggest fan of "use underused moves more" because generally their lack of usage can be attributed either to simply a low distribution or their not being as effective in a more fast-paced metagame. There isn't really an end goal either, except to make a Pokemon that happens to have X, Y, and Z moves, so there is no challenge involved in fulfilling the concept.

    I'll admit that I'm not very keen on this concept, to be honest - it doesn't seem like there's a lot of room to manoeuvre with it. The stats necessitate colossal HP and SpD while the typing necessitates a way to bypass Secret Sword and Psyshock while giving few if any weaknesses (this basically limits us to Dark/Ghost) - I don't see any other way of making a new universal special wall. While I agree that seeing what it could do in the metagame would be an interesting proposition, it isn't really conducive to the most inspired of processes. Of course, if you did not mean a universal special wall and merely meant a special wall that could take on the current biggest special attackers, that's slightly different, but it still seems to be too limiting in the process to be a good idea overall.

    I am somewhat confused by this concept - is the idea behind the concept to force two other Pokemon to form a core through the mere presence of CAP 4 in the metagame? If so, I'm not entirely sure how you would start - and I'm not entirely certain that the presence of one Pokemon even can force a core of two Pokemon to form. I assume that it's a challenge and a half, but I think there's a limit to how complex a concept can be. Possibly we could accomplish it, but it's a logistical nightmare that I could do without.

    This is another concept that confuses me. When you say "reduce centralisation around moves and abilities", how would that work? Is this solely about weather and entry hazards, or would it include stuff like a strong Fake Out + Ice Beam user to force Dragonite to run Inner Focus? Certainly the former is the only real set of moves or abilities that can really be described as game-defining. It certainly covers a great deal of ground though, and it does cover everything I asked of a concept, but if I am understanding it correctly, it seems a bit too similar to other, simpler concepts. Feel free to correct me if I have misunderstood.

    I'm detecting a slight logical flaw with this idea - how would both formes be able to counter each other at the same time? Unless I am misunderstanding, and one of them is designed to counter the other but not vice versa. I'd like to see this hopefully explained a bit more clearly before I go so far as to pass a judgement.

    Firstly, you are not allowed to specify that CAP4, by this concept, would have high Speed and offensive stats, but assuming that you take that out, the concept looks a little more interesting. If you look at it sideways, it's a bit like a Decentraliser-style concept. My biggest problem with it is that, well, it is not only very prescriptive, but also somewhat, well, over the top. Something that counters or checks a large list of very prominent OU threats and also happens to be an effective attacker as well? That sounds very slightly broken as a rule - and if it's toned down a bit, well, it becomes not terribly different to a lot of other stuff in the metagame. In short, then, I don't feel that it's quite appropriate for this CAP, though I like the idea behind it.

    The thing is, if something is standard then it isn't really a gimmick any longer. We would simply have to think of an interesting combination and build a Pokemon around it. Now, there's nothing wrong with this per se, but it's not really what I'm looking for, as the end goal is not particularly defined, since, well, the only requirement to define the concept is for CAP4 to make use of lesser-used options.

    Well, that's a very descriptive title. However, we are not building a Pokemon for the CAP metagame - and we are not to even acknowledge the existence of the CAP metagame in the building process. Hence, your concept as it stands is illegal. If you remove the mentions of the CAP metagame, I'm still not particularly keen, as bulky pivots already exist and we have built a good few of them, but I'd be at least willing to consider it further.

    Ugh I really really want to like this one but I find myself shrinking away from it for some reason. Voodoom was an excellent concept, to be sure, but aside from the information about cores that it gave us, we also learned that it's almost impossible to design a concept with a single Pokemon in mind - especially when said Pokemon is less usable already. Of course, you would probably say that there's still a lot that we can learn, and I would agree. The concept ticks all the boxes, but I am still wary of it. In any case, I can't in all good conscience reject it based on a whim, and I suppose that the challenge that this offers would be worth any incidental struggles with the idea.

    The applications of this concept, custom elements aside, are basically limited to Foul Play and Imposter, unfortunately. As such, this concept is rather limited in its applications in its current state, so it isn't really worthwhile.

    The concept is alright, but it's unnecessarily vague - it's similar to a lot of other, previously posted concepts that go into more detail and are more clear about what exactly they are going to achieve. You have also specified a custom ability in your justification - this would be illegal, I'm afraid.

    The Ultimate Wallbreaker is certainly an interesting concept, not to mention focused and simple, although it is significantly less ambitious than a lot of the other Projects here, as the end result will simply be, alas, a very strong wallbreaker. As such, I don't particularly favour the concept, even though it is an objectively good one.

    The concept seems solid, but the main issue that I have at present with it is that it seems quite restrictive as far as the Pokemon itself is concerned; or, more accurately, I'm not entirely certain how you can specifically design a Pokemon to pivot only between members of cores. Of course, you could always design it as a bulky pivot between specific members of well-know cores, but then it's only really one more bulky pivot of many.

    This would appear to be something of a sub-set of the "Time Capsule" concept, as Pinch Berry Pokemon definitely are a niche that died with the past - only Petaya Empoleon in DPP, and not even that in BW. The difficulty with this concept is really the whole "death of a niche" thing - it really can't cope with widespread priority moves. As such, although it would be a fun thing to pursue, it doesn't really seem very feasible to be honest.

    Kopaka > Tahu

    This is sort of similar to Porygon2 -> Porygon-Z, wouldn't you say? In addition, while it certainly isn't straightforward, the individual results of each Pokemon created are, well, rather generic. "A wall" and "a sweeper" aren't great in terms of direction.

    Mmm. Well, it has an end goal, but that's really all I can honestly say for this concept. The current Top Ten are all largely based around Sand or Rain teams (or, to a lesser extent, purely being strong), and they aren't particularly difficult to design Pokemon for. It's just a little too simple in terms of the building process, and we already know a lot about how those Top Ten Pokemon operate within their playstyles.

    While the Pokemon itself would be interesting, there is nothing inherently interesting about building the Pokemon - we'd just make a Pokemon with lots of immunities, and be done with it.

    --------------

    I would reply to other people, but the above took far longer than I had expected - and far longer than it should by rights have taken, so please believe me when I say I am considering everything that you are saying, even if I am not replying directly.

    The following represent my final short list:

    Code:
    Three Ways to Play
    Unpredictable Wall
    Ugly Duckling
    Time Capsule
    Dare To Be Different
    Quickstaller
    The Weather Killer
    Deceiver
    Risky Business
    One Trick Pony
    Weather Equaliser
    Utility Counter: Take Two
    Higher Ground
    Dedicated Lure
    Perfect Nemesis
    That's 15 concepts, which is too many for a final slate, much as I would like to put them all up - I'd like to think that this is indicative of the overall quality we've had this time around. The thread will close in roughly 2 hours, so please make any final edits you need while I work on the final slate.
  20. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    2,884
    I want to post some support for a pair of concepts that I really like.

    First off is capefeather's Risky Business. I think this concept incredibly interesting because it forces us to focus on a type of risk we don't normally think about. Most of the Pokemon we make in CAP are fairly safe. While, like any Pokemon, the have counters and checks and the like, there is nothing inherently risky about using them. A concept like this will lets CAP have its usual fun making something incredibly good in some dimensions, while at the same time making us contemplate how to not just make it not broken, but actually a risk to even put on your team. It would be incredibly interesting, and, in my opinion, a ton of fun.

    The other one I really like is Birkal's Perfect Nemisis. Now, what I really like about this is that it is essentially the antithesis of Voodoom's concept, Perfect Mate. It aims for a similar goal (increasing the usage of a lesser used OU mon), but in a very different fashion. While I was not around for the Voodoom process, much of what I have heard about it were good things. The process seems incredibly interesting, and outside of making sure the CAP is being countered by a low OU mon, it is a very open concept. But most importantly, it will tell us a lot about what really makes a counter, and I think that will be very informative. Sure, we have had discussions and made definitions of what a counter is, but we have never really explored why. This will help teach us, not just how to define a good counter, but what makes it what it is.

    There are plenty of other good concepts out there, and I'm sure we will have a fantastic slate to choose from, but I feel that these two would lead to the most interesting processes of the bunch.
  21. Heroes and Cons

    Heroes and Cons

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2012
    Messages:
    161
    I know this is late, but I hope it is still in time to be considered!

    Concept: Metabooster

    General Description: A Pokemon that, while at first glance mediocre or even terrible, has access to the right combination of moves and abilities to become a veritable OU threat in just one or two turns.

    Justification: It is a well-known fact that boosting sweepers are hard to stop for their combinations of high attacking stats, great move options and powerful abilities, and a lot of walls, tanks and stallers such as Vaporeon boast great HP and/or Defensive stats. However, not one pokemon so far can claim to be both a veritable OU threat AND viable OU wall, all while holding mediocre attacking and defensive stats.

    Questions to be Answered:
    Can a Pokemon become a viable threat as a sweeper with mediocre offensive stats, purely thanks to its ability and movepool?
    Can that same Pokemon, also with average defensive stats, perform very well as a wall or staller purely thanks to a good ability and powerful defensive movepool?

    Explanation: While many Pokemon have access to stat-boosting moves to boost their power, defenses or speed, my idea is to create a Pokemon that - while having mediocre base stats than most would consider approximately RU standard - its combination of typing, ability (Simple would be the obvious choice, but other ones are possible) and access to a wide array of attacking and boosting moves allows it to quickly change from a terrible pokemon to a veritable nightmare either as a dangerous sweeper, wall, or tank.
    While some pokemon are shown to be able to do one of these roles in a lower tie (such as BellySpeed Linoone or CurseLax), not one Pokemon - with mediocre stats - can do both, as well as being a threat all players prepare for you in OU. Ideas such as Prankster Heart Swap, Prankster Dual Screens, or Simple + (large boosting movepool), come to the forefront here.
  22. toshimelonhead

    toshimelonhead Raising Whitney's Miltank

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,046
    Not finished yet but with the deadline looming wanted a rough draft to finish tonight.

    Concept: Freshman Hazer

    Description: A pokemon designed to specifically counter the new additions of BW/2 (Keldeo, Therians, Genesect, etc.)

    Justification: Black and White 2 added a number of new threats to the OU metagame, some of which are challenging to check/counter on their own. This CAP would take on the challenge of trying to counter a specific set of pokemon without being able to take on the entire metagame as a whole.

    Questions (to be done later):

    Explanation (to be done later):
  23. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Site Staff Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    7,742
    Gonna throw my support behind Perfect Nemesis even if that loser berkle or whatever his name is is the one that came up with it.

    I want to post about comparisons to Voodoom as far as "Voodoom's flaws" go. As a Perfect Mate, Voodoom's major critique is that the concept succeeded... just not with Togekiss. Instead, it was the perfect mate to Zapdos, a much 'better' OU Pokemon. A major thing we learned from that concept is that when if you try to create a Pokemon with another specific Pokemon in mind, you need to keep in mind that the Pokemon you create affects the relative power levels of other Pokemon as well, not just the intended target. Looking at that through the lens of a Perfect Nemesis, what does this mean? That we design a top tier OU Pokemon that was meant to be hard countered by a specific (and slightly inferior) current OU Pokemon, however instead of just being countered by that Pokemon, it is also solidly countered by a better existing Pokemon. Thus, instead of boosting the target Pokemon's usage, we boost the usage of the other existing Pokemon.

    That's a valid point I suppose. However, my belief is that we 'failed' in our attempt with Voodoom because a) we didn't keep this idea in mind at all, and more importantly b) designing a teammate is MUCH harder than designing something to be countered. The former is highly a subjective concept, because its next to impossible to take into account the surrounding metagame. Designing a counter (or in this case, designing something to be hard countered by a single Pokemon), is comparatively objective. We already know the stats and movepools of each Pokemon that is relevant in the metagame, and of our target Pokemon (the counter). I feel it's reasonable to assume that we can create a Pokemon that fulfills the concept without being hard countered by one single Pokemon and no others given that we know all these things and more importantly, the objective ways they interact (ie, my special attack against the counter does y damage, and if it does less than 'whatever' the counter can switch in and avoid a #HKO). Basically, IMO, the main difference between this concept and Perfect Mate is that this has a more objective endpoint (and is thus easier to reach). Countering isn't really something that's completely objective itself, but it is when compared to the concept of teammates.

    My real concern is that we'd be deliberately be creating another 'Politoed.' Given this communities propensity to create unintentionally strong Pokemon, this does worry me a bit. Hopefully the fact that we'd be designing something with a counter in mind (I mean we also have the counters stage or whatever to iron out other checks and stuff) mitigates this, but one common argument to ban something is "I have to run X on every team to stop it," and that's not something I really want to get into, even if "it is just CAP so whatever."

    Either way, this concept is still a favorite of mine. I do like others but I really like this one as a concept. Fuckin berkle, must we agree on everything..?
  24. srk1214

    srk1214 is a giant squid of anger
    is a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2010
    Messages:
    1,994
    Thank you for clarifying, Birkal. I don't think I am a poor reader, though I did read your concept submission quickly. I am much more liable to support your concept now that I see I had misunderstood it. Still, I am a little wary for the same reasons as bmb, but I look forward to seeing it as a slated option as I certainly find it interesting.
  25. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Doubles Co-Lead

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Messages:
    3,477
    Okay time to be a buzzkill...

    There's a lot of really good concepts this time around. A ton. There's probably six or seven that I wouldn't mind pursuing. Unfortunately, there's one that I've been seeing get a lot of traction that i just can't imagine being worthwhile, and I feel like I need to post in opposition to it (sorry Birkal D:)

    Perfect Nemesis, at first glance, seems like the antithesis of Voodoom's concept, which was a great project. Voodoom made something good by working together with it; this would make something good by working against it. But it's not that simple.

    See, the problem with Perfect Nemesis is I don't really see how much we could truly learn from it. Birkal's justification lists three main points that we would explore with this concept:

    1) How to threaten the tier as a whole. Now, every offensive Pokemon that is good threatens most of the tier. If a Pokemon wants to be OU, it has to threaten the tier. "how to threaten a tier" is hardly a concept that is unique to a "Perfect Nemesis;" furthermore, if we make a pokemon that can attack a tier's weak points and has only one dedicated counter, it will easily risk being broken. If it is not, there are two paths i see: a) better pokemon will adapt to counter CAP4, thus making it fail in its goal because the pokemon that it was supposed to rise in usage didn't ride in usage or b) the pokemon it was supposed to make rise in usage becomes necessary on every team, therefore making a centralized and bland meta. I see no middle ground.

    2) To explore what makes a counter a counter. The thing is, unlike with Voodoom's "core" idea, a counter is one of the most exact, most explored, most defined sciences in all of Pokemon. It's well known what makes a counter; in fact, CAP has six rules for just that in its Counters Discussion. Quoted from the page in the Process guide:
    I challenge you to find a flaw in this definition of a "counter." It will be very difficult, because countering is quite airtight. By definition, being a counter leaves no room for uncertainty, and without uncertainty to the nature of a counter, i fail to see what can be learned by doing a Perfect Nemesis.

    3) Discussion of the merits of Low OU Pokemon. While i'll admit this would be fun, we don't need a CAP for that: head on over to the OU Subforum and start a thread (or, more likely, post in an existing one) if you want to do this!


    So, in summary, I don't think that a Perfect Nemesis can teach us much about how counters work because there's nothing left to be learned, and either the Perfect Counter will fall by the wayside to the likes of more generally useful pokemon who can counter or strongly check CAP4, or else the meta will revolve around cap4 and its counter and become quite centralized and repetitive.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)