CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 1 - Concept Submissions

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M'yes. The thing is, though, that banning is and always will be very subjective - there is no easy definition. There are plenty of borderline cases - see Garchomp and Excadrill, for example - but I think there are very few absolute clear-cut cases (the only ones I can really think of are RBY Mewtwo and DPP LC Scyther). The idea of "banning because broken" is not necessary synonymous with "banning because we want a balanced metagame". I'm not fond of this concept, not because there's no challenge involved (because there certainly is), but because there's no definite end goal in sight. And that's a problem when everyone has differing ideas about what is too powerful and what isn't. For example, I believe that Garchomp was banned in DPP purely because it was very good, rather than because it was broken. But not everyone would agree with that. "Overcentralising" I believe was phased out a while ago - it was used as justification for Garchomp's ban, and BW is rather alarmingly centralised around only a few playstyles. That doesn't make it bad, of course.

All in all, I think that the concept as it stands has the distinct possibility to cause far too much drama for far too little reward. If you were to change it to emphasise the defensive aspect - it is certainly not known whether it is possible for a Pokemon to be defensively overpowering, as you said - then I would be far more willing to consider it.


Three Ways to Play
Unpredictable Wall
Ugly Duckling
Time Capsule
Dare To Be Different
The Weather Killer
Living On the Edge
One Trick Pony
Weather Equaliser
I'm really disappointed by the lack of Breaking Point on this list. It's my favorite out of every concept here, and it has tons of thought put into it. Also, I would argue that there is definitely a "definitive end point," and that would be a pokemon that helps us define the "line" between OU and Uber. If there is any one concept that can teach us the most about the metagame (seeing as how the whole point of CAP is to learn about the meta,) it is undoubtedly Breaking Point.

On a lighter note, I'm really glad that Deceiver and Dare to be Different are on the slate, they are great concepts and probably my next 2 picks for winner.
Name: Dedicated Lure
General Description: A Pokemon whose typing allows it to lure out a variety of Pokemon with the focus of crippling them rather than defeating them, but its ability to do so is based on its current stats and movepool.
Justification: This concept allows us to explore and understand what it takes to check/defeat current variety of threats and cores in the OU metagame, and to see if said combination required is viable/achievable by current Pokemon in OU.
Questions To Be Answered:
  • Will 'a lure with tools to defeat a variety of threats' turn into 'a sweeper with wide coverage'?
  • Will this 'Dedicated Lure' be built around the team, or have a team built around him?
  • Will this lead to a normally checkable/counterable threat/team turn into an unstoppable force?
  • Will this render some of the current threats/teams completely unusable?
Explanation: This idea stems from reading posts about how some otherwise good teams are very weak against a specific threats (Hail teams that are Volcarona weak), how some Pokemon require teamslots for specific checks/counters which could otherwise be used to bolster their strategy (Terrakion), or how effective a core can be should its main threat be eliminated (DragMag). I believe that this concept will allow us to see exactly how far each team can go should the main threat to their team be crippled/removed by 'Dedicated Lure', and how other teams will react when their reliable check/counter is rendered useless/removed. This will allow us to explore what combination of moves/stats is most effective against current threats. This will also potentially lead to the discovery of new checks/counters that work in different ways as a result of the old ones being targeted by 'Dedicated Lure', as well as effective ways to save the ones targeted.

p.s. Hi Smogon! What a surprise, I never imagined my first post here would be related to CAP at all. I am currently in your care, please look after me!
I've said I wasn't fond of "Break the Mould" style concepts, though this one would promise some interesting discussion. I am still not keen on it purely because it focuses to too great an extent on the ability and moves, and there is no real end goal based on the concept itself.
Legitimate concerns. However, I believe Break the Mold would offer a sizable goal to the project. Let's recap. Break the Mold is set to explore moves and abilities in ways they weren't intended for. In the current metagame, there are few ways to deviate from standard sets.

If you're a sweeper or revenge killer, you have hard hitting, stat boosting, and/or priority moves (pick any two); You hold a Choice item, Life Orb, or Expert Belt, or Air Balloon; You have offensive stats that exceed 80 or will have abilities such as Moxie, Sheer Force, and Technician, or else you will never be considered a viable sweeper in OU.

If you're a wall or tank, you have some form of reliable recovery and Substitute; You hold Leftovers; You have key resistances and one of your defenses is above 90 if you do not have any way increase your defenses even further; Your ability gives you an immunity, gradually heals you, or is Intimidate.

If you're support, you are either extremely fast, bulky, or more often than not, both in an abnormal ratio; You will have Stealth Rock or Rapid Spin in your movepool; Your ability is Magic Bounce, Prankster, Magic Guard, or something that starts weather.

I have just named virtually every single Pokemon in OU. With a few exceptions, essentially every one of the 59 Pokemon in OU heavily match one of those descriptions. Is that not sad to some degree? Obviously they all have those attributes in common because it works, but would deviating from one of those roles into another still be viable?

That's where we explore the concept of breaking the mold, where our main goal comes down to a major question: Could a Pokemon be viable in a specific role if it had very little in common with others of its role? A question like that could never be answered without a CAP specifically designed for it, simply because of how rooted most Pokemon are to being similar to one another. Potentially, a sweeper could also be itself, a supporter, or even both at once, but as it is there haven't been decent attempts at using said sweeper as a wall without having one outright turn it into a tank instead. Unless that Pokemon has universally rounded stats like Jirachi or Celebi, a Pokemon is doomed to falling under only one label based on its stats and typing.

In short, the concept does raise a goal in mind. We'd be discovering if the labels of a Pokemon influence it or are shaped by it, and to what extent they do. Breaking the Mold 2 has plenty to offer in terms of going beyond just seeing what irregular moves and abilities would be like in that it actually explores the role of a Pokemon itself in addition to exploring moves and abilities.

Therefore, between the large extend of what we'd learn and a true goal ahead, Breaking the Mold 2 should be slated.
Name: Weather Neutralizer/ Abuser
General Description: The idea behind this is to utilize existing tools and techniques in an environment that is overall focused on weather by being able to take two routes; either make use of the weather at hand and use it against your opponent or to stop it with the idea of stopping weather-reliant strategies.
Weather is prevalent enough within the OverUsed Tier that a battle between two weather teams boils down to domination of weather to ensure victory as apposed to the aim for victory itself, While a battle between a team making use of weather mechanics and a team that isn't is an uphill battle for the team not using weather. Taking into account how commonplace weather based teams are in the current metagame, teams that don't utilize weather are almost deemed "gimmicky". This concept is to take back the playing field to even grounds; by making weather users think twice before setting the stage for a master plan, this pokemon would be able to either get the jump on the pokemon that are commonly seen in weather teams, or all together stop the weather before the enemy has time to set up, making the weather use make the choice between losing momentum in order to set up once again or continue fighting without the core of the team.

Questions To Be Answered:

+ What separates this concept from the plethora of preexisting "Anti-Weather" or "Anti-Field Hazard: Teams?

+ What potential does this have to effect the current metagame when taking into account B2/W2?

+ How would the overall concept be executed gameplay wise?


+ The idea behind the concept is not simply to eliminate weather as an aspect of the current metagame, as that is an unreachable feat, but rather to make use of the opponent's pre-exsisting weather, use it against them, and make them think twice before sending in their weather starter which would give you, or in a polar opposite concept stop the weather cold in an Air Lock-esc fasion which, looking at 3 out of the 4 perma-weather starters alone would render them helpless without any boosting power behind them due to lack of weather. This however has nothing to deal with entry hazards, as their are plenty of manners of dispatching or avoiding said hazards, leaving the duty to another pokemon.

+ This concept if thought out and executed properly has the potential to shift the current metagame from a weather based game of King of the Hill into a race for supremacy basing itself not solely on weather but on raw power as well, while in theory finding a balance to weather and non-weather based combat.

+ My idea behind this Pokemon is to utilize the ability Air Lock or something similar to it, while having the opposite option to use an ability allowing it to abuse any form of weather, without having to use Magic Guard or Magic Bounce so that they may be a safe switch in. The moveset should reflect this by giving access to common powerful moves that would quickly dispatch weather users (I.E. Thunder/Wild Charge for Politoad, Focus Blast/Close Combat for Tyranitar, Hydro Pump/ Waterfall for Ninetails, Fire Blast/Heat Crash for Abomnasnow) or by opposition, have moves using weather (Thunder, Blizzard, Solarbeam) to their advantage against pokemon that aren't the starters.


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Well, now. If I'm understanding this correctly, you are suggesting something like Slowking to check Keldeo, correct? When I read the Description, I immediately thought of Breloom and Scizor, but then again both of these have stand-out single qualities, such as access to both Technician and priority attacks. Regarding your example, it is probably largely Jellicent's unique typing - making it a spinblocker, check to a large number of Pokemon, etc - that makes it OU, although as you say, Scald, Taunt, and Recover all help. If it didn't have its Ghost-typing, it would be a worse Milotic - and bulky Ghosts are hard to come by.

I'm afraid I'm finding it hard to find any really good examples - Donphan is perhaps the only one I can really think of, but you said that you didn't want them to be "filling a role" as it were. I do think that this could merit some very interesting discussion, especially as the end product is not obvious by any stretch - my only qualm, as it were, is that Mollux turned out rather similar to this, in terms of being able to check top-tier threats, so I could see this as being a bit too like what we have just done. That's not grounds for disqualifying it, though.
I don't know if Slowking to check Keldeo is quite applicable, but I guess it's close enough. Of course, I'm not quite confident Slowking really has the potential to be usable in OU in general, but then again I've never tried it. In reality, this is especially so because, well, why would you use Slowking to check Keldeo when you can use Jellicent to do so?

The CAP would be allowed to have good typing like Jellicent's, even combined with as useful of a movepool as Jellicent's. However, if those two elements were the case, I would expect the CAP to have even inferior stats to Jellicent's (though I'm not sure that's doable in the OU environment without being outclassed or pigeon-holed) and possibly a useless/detrimental ability such as Stall. More likely though, I would expect the CAP that fulfills this project to have rather unspectacular (though perhaps versatile) typing and ability that are compensated by a very well targeted movepool and flexible stats. This I think would provide the most challenge to the competitive members of the CAPmmunity to truly build ideal spreads and movepools. It also would give us a very good opportunity to perhaps finally make a Normal or Psychic CAP (as they certainly fit the bill on mediocrity in typing), which could be interesting. Of course though, this concept remains open-ended enough that anything aside from FANTASTIC typing is possible.

I just had to stress the and/or element of my proposal. The CAP can have typing more similar in strength to Jellicent's than to Slowking's. It would simply need to forfeit other strengths in order to truly be an underdog and not a 580 BST STAB Hurricane spamming Regenerating behemoth.
I very much doubt that the concept is that feasible, as even Wobbuffet, a Pokemon with only 8 moves to choose from, can run different sets (yeah I know Ditto exists but). In addition, there isn't really a definable end goal in place, though you could easily make the argument that there is, so I'll be willing to overlook that. That's the only beef I have with it, though - aside from that, the concept is very solid indeed and could merit some interesting discussion.
I've edited my entry with your comments in mind. You're right that any Pokémon with more than four moves is bound to be able to run different movesets. I'm suggesting a Pokémon that is trapped into one role, with moveset, ability, and EV combinations not significantly affecting what our CAP can do. This can happen in a few possible ways (as seen in some examples of real Pokémon in OU):

There are the Pokémon that may be able to change up a move or two, but who essentially can only do one thing/fill one role no matter how they fiddle with EVs or moves. Some examples are the trappers Wobbuffet and Dugtrio. As you pointed out, even Wobbuffet decides between Tickle and Safeguard, but that changes its role very negligibly. No matter what you do, if you try to do anything with Wobbuffet other than trap and revenge something (a choiced mon or a defensive mon that you Tickle) or Encore something to help your team, it won't work. Dugtrio is in the same vein. You can debate between Focus Sash and Choice Band, whether or not to have Stealth Rock, but the fact is, Dugtrio is not going to do anything other than trap and kill a few very specific threats (Heatran, Ninetales, Tyranitar). It simply can't effectively do anything else.

Another vein is Pokémon who have other possible sets, but those sets are simply outclassed compared to the effective one or outclassed by similar Pokémon that run the same set. Examples are Cloyster and Skarmory. Cloyster, these days, pretty much runs the exact same Shell Smash set no matter what. He doesn't have much choice in coverage, so even the chosen attacking moves rarely vary. Any Rapid Spin sets are utterly overshadowed not only by the Shell Smash set, but also by the many other effective bulky water spinners that do its job so much better (Starmie, Tentacruel, even Blastoise). Skarmory is in the same boat. I've run Skarmory a lot since Stall is my favorite playstyle, and he simply has no effective set outside of Brave Bird / Spikes / Whirlwind / Roost. Taunt may show up once in a while, but with Skarmory's speed, it's very situational. I mention this one because I had the pleasure of facing a Swords Dance Skarmory earlier today and it collapsed against my team like a sack of dead meat. Skarmory just isn't built for doing anything other than Spikes and Phazing. Messing around with EVs may net some novel capabilities, but when you see a Skarmory on the opposing team, there is no doubt what it's planning to do: Phaze, tank, and Spike.

These are examples of Pokémon in our meta who are "One Trick Ponies" and I think it would be informative to try to make one ourselves. Not to mention, it would guarantee a focus on the process rather than the end result, and it would almost certainly not result in a superpowerful CAP that we've made so many times before. Let's try something new!
Name: Two-Turn Specialist
General Description: This Pokemon can utilize two-turn moves to their fullest potential.
Justification: Multi-Turn moves offer a unique twist into the game where they either offer a lot of power (Blast Burn, Frenzy Plant) or an unique utility (Fly, Dive, Dig's 'immunity' from damage). Unfortunately they are over looked for more straight forward moves (use the term losely) such as Scald or Fire Blast.
Questions To Be Answered:
Can moves such as Dive, Fly, Doom Desire, Solar Beam, Blast Burn etc.. be competitively viable
Can 1 Pokemon utilize all these moves effectively

Explanation: It'd be cool to see a Pokemon use Fly tactically.
Name: Let's have a F-... STAKEOUT!!
Description: A Pokemon that effectively uses moves that would otherwise rarely see the light of day in our current metagame... if at all.
Justification: Earthquake. Stealth Rock. 50% recovery moves. These are just a few of the moves that plague today's metagame for whatever reasoning. But there are other options that are left at the bottom of the barrel. Ingrain is an example of this, with its ability to recover HP every so often, and also stops phazing cold. Why does that not see any use? How about Fake Out, with its priority, and its ability to automatically flinch the enemy? And what of Trick? That used to see great usage in DPP, and now in BW, it's almost snuffed out in comparison. Perhaps some of these moves don't have enough good users, or maybe they're not up to par to begin with. Well, by working with this concept and creating the resulting Pokemon, we can unravel these mysteries, and understand the true reasons why some of these moves don't see usage, while things like Earthquake and Stealth Rock practically litter the metagame.
Questions to be Answered:
Does this Pokemon need specific stat, type and ability tailoring to run some of these moves?
Will moves that this Pokemon runs suddenly become a fad?
Should we write the more commonly run moves off this Pokemon's movepool? Or is that just asking for this Pokemon's drop from the OU ladder?
Once this Pokemon is created and playtested successfully, which moves will slowly rise in usage? And which will remain stuck at the bottom of the barrel?
How far down the bottom of the barrel should we try to reach with this concept?
What makes a move usable, and what makes it scream of epic fail?
Explanation: Ever wondered why things like Ingrain, Fake Out and Trick don't see much usage in the BW metagame, even though all 3 could very well be used advantageously? Well sometimes its down to the situation. For example, Machamp and Golurk can use Dynamic Punch just fine with No Guard, but the move has such bad accuracy that it's bound to let anyone else down when they try to use it. It would be the same if they were given things like Zap Cannon and Purgatory, or even things a little more accuracy but still not enough to use effectively, like Dragon Rush. Or maybe a move in question is exclusive to only a few Pokemon, and those Pokemon are either not OU, or have better options at their disposal? Of course, there are always those few moves that are at the bottom of the barrel for good reason, such as Hyper Beam or Giga Impact. But can we really pick all these moves apart, and separate the good ones from the bad? That's what this concept is all about; picking up all those moves that you see in the bottom of the barrel, and seeing what they're made of.


Was fun while it lasted
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Round 2

Stat Down Specialist
This concept is just a tad restrictive, unfortunately, and while it would certainly be interesting to see the effects of a Pokemon that had a lot of stat-down moves, I'm not certain that it would be any more terribly informative than that of CAP3, where we gave Mollux the move Acid Spray. I can't see us going anywhere further with it without a custom ability – there simply isn't sufficient potential in the pool of stat-down moves we currently have.

This is a good concept and one that has many potential applications. All Pokemon in the game, to a greater or lesser extent, limit the opponent's options insofar as the psychological factor that causes pause for thought, so it would be interesting to see the higher applications of this. There's nothing I dislike about this concept save for a likely reliance on a rather small pool of moves – not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.

Gravity Guy
Gravity isn't really something we want to be looking at, to be honest. While yes, it is indeed overlooked as a playstyle as a rule, this is because it, well, isn't actually that good. As far as individual users of the move go, we have Pokemon such as Landorus who make fantastic use of the move, and so we pretty much already know how such a project would go. I can't really see it meriting any fantastic kind of discussion, sorry.

The Hail-Mary Playbook
Hmm, last Pokemon standing? It's an interesting concept, to be sure, though I'm not entirely sure how that would work, or even could work – the only ones that I can really think of are bulky set-up sweepers using Calm Mind, Cosmic Power, or Coil (who thus appreciate the inability of the opponent to phaze them), and yet we have plenty of those already. I suppose Reversal Heracross from older generations might also qualify, but that niche sunk a long time ago. The concept is alright, but I'm struggling to think of ways it could apply in today's metagame.

Utility Counter: Take Two

I adored this concept the first time, and I am adamant that it was one of the best processes that CAP ever had (even if the final product was somewhat out of snuff). I would love to see this come back, as everything is there that we need – the challenges, the many avenues we could take, and the rest of it. The only downside is the fact that we have already done it, but I think that this is a small price to pay for the strength of the concept.

"It's Super Effective!" Huh?
Hmm. Like I said, I'm not fond of concepts where the object of investigation is too, well, prescriptive. It is based entirely around moves, in the vein of "what if X had Y move?" rather than a proper end goal that requires some greater deal of thought to achieve it. As I say, it's not a bad concept in and of itself, but it's not really what I am looking for.

Higher Ground
Quite a basic concept, rather similar to some previous CAPs in many ways, but still a pretty good one, all things considered. It has a scope that can be as broad or as narrow as we demand of it, and it is fairly pertinent to today's metagame in many ways, particularly in its emphasis on entry hazards and weather, two of the biggest parts of competitive battling. It's very ambitious, and I do like it.

Dedicated Lure
Well, for a first concept, and particularly for a first post, I actually really like it. It's quite basic, but still gives plenty of things to discuss and avenues to explore. It's rather similar to Utility Counter, but is distinct enough from it that it stands up on its own. There's not a lot I don't like about it, except that it is a bit more restrictive than other, similar entries, which hurts it a bit.

Weather Neutraliser / Abuser
This is interesting, and very slightly different from the generic "Weather Stopper" type concepts that have already been suggested. It would be interesting to see, but I'm not sure how you can make a Pokemon that takes significant advantage of the opponent's weather without making it a Pokemon that is far more suited to being on weather teams itself – particularly if this significant ability under weather were true of all weathers, as it would be an invaluable weapon for weather teams to use against others, which rather defeats the point. Still, it's a good concept, but similarities to others and inherent logical problems make it less suitable.


And now, to respond to the replies to my earlier comments:

I do agree that it is a robust concept – I believe I have in the past submitted something similar. But I have to go with my gut and say that it is the wrong concept to be pursuing at this time, and that there's too much risk involved for too little reward, and also that the subject matter is somewhat debatable in any case. I can't safely say to myself that I would choose that concept, so I can't in all good conscience slate it.

GRs Cousin
What you are saying is true, but that's not what your concept suggests. The concept states that one is using abilities or moves in unconventional ways. This is both unnecessarily limiting very early on and also focuses our attention on a few of the stages, while also, and this is the key point, immediately enabling us to fulfil the concept through very quick and easy means, so the discussion is more limited than it would be for other concepts. "Discovering if" isn't the goal I have in mind – it's more trying to build something specific, taking every part of the Pokemon into consideration, rather than seeing "what happens if". I'm not denying that it's a good concept that has the potential to teach us a great deal – but that it isn't really what I'm looking for, in the same vein as a lot of excellent concepts here. Thank you for taking the time to reply though, and I definitely see where you are coming from, but I can't really justify to myself putting it on the slate.

Thank you both for replying, and also for clarifying those concepts. They both have potential, and both could make for interesting CAPs.


I have added a few concepts to the short list, as follows:

Three Ways to Play
Unpredictable Wall
Ugly Duckling
Time Capsule
Dare To Be Different
The Weather Killer
Living On the Edge
One Trick Pony
Weather Equaliser
Utility Counter: Take Two
Higher Ground
Dedicated Lure
I will have to cut this list down to make the final slate, but please do note that I am considering everything here. As I have mentioned, even if your concept is not here, do feel free to post and explain again why your concept deserves to be slated - there are only a few that I am adamantly against, and I would like to make clear that I am willing to listen.

We have a large pool of potential concepts now, so I will go ahead and put a 20 hour deadline from the time of this post for this thread to close (20 hours because I am not going to be up at 1am to close the thread, sorry). Make any final changes or entreaties that you need, and very best of luck to you.
Hmm, last Pokemon standing? It's an interesting concept, to be sure, though I'm not entirely sure how that would work, or even could work – the only ones that I can really think of are bulky set-up sweepers using Calm Mind, Cosmic Power, or Coil (who thus appreciate the inability of the opponent to phaze them), and yet we have plenty of those already. I suppose Reversal Heracross from older generations might also qualify, but that niche sunk a long time ago. The concept is alright, but I'm struggling to think of ways it could apply in today's metagame.
The interesting thing is that set-up sweepers were the last things on my mind! My main thought process was a bit more in line with overpowering with offense--mach punching a Terrakion, ice sharding a Salamence or ice beaming a dragonite, rather than bulking up to prepare for an onslaught--or using moves that provide stat-ups such as Flame Charge, Speed Boost or Charge Beam to build up while taking on problems with force. (Granted, their BP isn't terribly strong...) A fast Heart Swap would be interesting as well.

Usually, something that needs time to set up won't stand a chance against something that's already boosted up... tho that's an interesting option, to be sure.
I'd like to do one of the posted concepts that isn't either a weather counter or a poke that can run 15 different sets. (IMO) the idea behind those is to add more originality in to the metagame, but there is already enough variety and creative movesets. Not saying originality is a bad thing, but I'd rather not focus on a poke made just to decentralize. If it does thats fine, but taking a poke and giving it swift swim/hurricane/fire blast/solar beam/arena trap just to try and get rid of some popular ou strategies doesn't sound good to me.

The risk/reward poke is interesting, imo that is the most important part of battling (prediction is for when you can't figure out what has high reward/low risk) so i'd like to do that.


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Name: Dedicated Special Wall

General Description: A Pokemon that can handily defeat or severely mitigate the effects of the new/improved, powerful, Special Attacking Pokemon that currently shape the BW2 metagame.

Justification: It's no secret that Rain Offense has become the defining playstyle of this metagame thanks to the new Special attackers that were recently released. Meanwhile, the best Special walls of the tier such as Blissey, Chansey, and Ferrothorn can no longer take the hits from Pokemon such as Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, and Keldeo. If this concept is selected, we can see what the metagame would be like if the powerful Special attackers of the tier were taken down a peg.

Questions To Be Answered:

-With Pokemon such as the Therians, Keldeo, Politoed, and Latios no longer running rampant throughout the OU tier, which Pokemon and playstyles will emerge as dominant?

-Are the current Special Sweepers in OU so potent that they can't be stopped or even mitigated by a single Pokemon?

-It's no secret that many of the Special attackers in OU abuse Rain to some extent. If a Pokemon is introduced into the metagame that can actually handle these attackers, will it re-balance the weather situation in OU?

-What Physical attacking Pokemon will become even more crucial to the OU metagame if the Physical-Special balance is restored?

-ADV OU and DPP OU were reasonably balanced between offense and stall. BW2 OU is very biased towards offense, largely because many of the walls have serious problems such as limited bulk, a Fighting weakness, or no recovery combined with a hazard weakness. Will a wall that can handily defeat the top tier Special attackers be able to revitalize stall in OU, especially if partnered with a dominant Physical wall?

-In ADV OU it was possible to cover nearly every Special attacker with one Pokemon. In DPP OU it was possible to cover many Special attackers with one Pokemon. If a Pokemon that can handle nearly every Special attacker is added to OU, will the metagame start to become like ADV OU or DPP OU? What similarities will we recognize?

-Do walls need a solid attacking option? What kind of offensive stats elevate a wall from being a "sitting duck" to being a "momentum killer"?

-Is it possible to design a wall to combat Special attackers in any weather? Since Sun sweepers, Rain sweepers, and Hail sweepers (Sand uses few Special attackers) all tend to run many Special attacks, is it possible to cover all of them with one Pokemon? If not, how many can we cover and how effectively can we cover them?

Explanation: This concept may seem off-putting because of its specificity. I assure you that if this concept is successfully implemented, it will answer numerous questions about the metagame such as the relationship between the Physical/Special split and weather, the relationship between weather and offense/stall, and the relationship between offense and stall between the generations. This is the first generation without a Special wall that can take down nearly any attacker. This is the first generation where people don't need to ask themselves: "How do I beat the pink blob?", because nearly every Special sweeper does that already and no successor to the blobs has emerged. Consequently, the metagame has shifted towards offense because of the availability of 120-140 Base Power, 80-100% accuracy moves with fantastic typing, most of which are Special (Hydro Pump, Thunder, Hurricane, Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Blizzard). Bloated attacking stats have also contributed to the eventual conquering of stall by Special attackers. The ease of setting up hazards hasn't hurt, either, and it's no coincidence that stall's fallen out of favor when the walls became Spikes weak (I'm not saying that Spikes resistance needs to be on this CAP, it's just an observation correlating the demise of stall with the accessibility of hazards).

This CAP would strive to restore balance between Physcial and Special, Sand and Rain, and Offense and Stall by creating a dedicated Special wall to counteract the gradual progression towards Special-based Rain Offense. It provokes numerous questions such as, "Is it possible to create a SkarmBliss of the 5th Generation", and "How has the increasing popularity of Special attacks contributed to the metagame becoming more offensive?". This concept, even though it is rather focused, lets us learn a lot about almost every facet of competitive Pokemon such as playstyle, attack selection, Pokemon throughout the generations, and weather.
I'd like to explain why I don't think we've really seen an exploration of a true jack-of-all-trades.

Mew is the closest thing, yes - but, while it can do just about everything, it's not effective enough at a lot of those jobs for it to be worthwhile, largely due to its mediocre typing. Having Psychic for its only STAB is a major blow to Mew's offensive capabilities, especially when its base 100 offenses are at the lower bound of usable. Pokémon with similar offensive stats (for instance, Infernape or Victini) rely on high-power moves from great STAB types to be real offensive threats, which Mew can't do - hurting its ability to truly fill any role that's desired.

Mew can run a Swords Dance set, but it's all-around less effective than Nasty Plot as a simple wallbreaker; Zen Headbutt gives you similarly mediocre power with the addition of slightly questionable accuracy, and your coverage options aren't nearly as good. Choice Specs or Choice Band just don't do enough damage; your power is an issue even with Nasty Plot. Forget about a Choice Scarf set, for much the same reason. And a dedicated defensive set? Psychic typing is... problematic. Yeah, it gives you a Fighting resistance, which is neat - but not at the cost of being weak to Pursuit and the ubiquitous U-turn. Mew's best bet defensively is the support set on site right now; that's good at its job, mind you, but it can't really stay in and wall a lot of dangerous threats. Will-O-Wisp is the best thing it has going for it, so Special offense can tear through Mew and its lacking set of resistances, while faster U-turners can take a huge chunk out of its HP. Mew has unlimited options, but it struggles to exploit a lot of them. The goal of this concept would be to make a Pokémon that can fully utilize every tool we give it - becoming a threat because of sheer unpredictability and the element of surprise. I'd imagine lure sets would be very common; if the common physical tank is checked by CB Terrakion, you might run a physically offensive Scarf variant with Close Combat on what is otherwise a more defensive team that would be expected to run the tank, if that team has problems with Terrakion. Terrakion comes in and is cleanly 2HKO'd; you retain a serviceable revenge killer and have eliminated a major threat to your team as a whole.

It would be very hard to come closer to the concept than Mew, mind you; you're walking a fine line, making a Pokémon that can do everything, can do it well enough to be dangerous in that role, but isn't overpowered. That being said - I think that we could pull it off, as long as we were cautious. The importance of a good typing to this concept really can't be overstated; the wrong typing will shut the CAP out of potential roles regardless of its stats and movepool.
As AG said, the concept is really limiting - there are so few ways to take advantage of gender that there really isn't much point in trying to make a Pokemon that will base its existence on gender, without creating a custom ability or otherwise.
I will not argue that it is a limiting concept. Looking back, it was a foolish suggestion as a main concept for a pokemon. However, it would be wise to keep in mind what is commonly considered flavor would affect the metagame.


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Hmm. The difficulty with unpredictability in walls is that they are primarily designed to switch into something, which rather diminishes the whole surprise aspect - if, say, you have switched in an Alakazam, and your opponent switches in said unpredictable wall, you are within your rights to bet that it will be a special wall. Of course, you could bluff, that's true, but I'd have thought that the risk involved would make something like Chansey more worthwhile in that situation. Another concern is that the typing, whatever it might be, will almost always favour one of special or physical defence over the other - this is not guaranteed, I grant, but it is a problem nevertheless.
Hmm, perhaps I've been too narrow in the wish that even switching in the opponent might not know what you are walling. In this generation of knowing what your opponent has on their team before hand, even then the unpredictable wall could pose a mind game element.


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out of all the concepts so far i think the one that jumps out at me the most is the weather equalizer for a few reasons. First of all there are many different directions this cap could go. Also this is the biggest part of the metagame right now yet two weathers have gone relatively unexplored due to the lack of benefits compared to other weathers.

this would allow us to find the most effective way to incorporate hail and sun into threatening forces in the ou metagame rather than them mainly being an easy way to take the weather advantage away from a weather team.

this cap could either look to develop a monster hail or sun threat like tornadus-t in the rain or life orb sheer force landorus in the sand. this would show us what makes a threatening poke that much more effective in a certain weather- whether its the ability, moveset, typing or a perfect combination of all 3 that is just tailor- made for that weather.

another way this could go is a poke that could function well in hail or sun and totally check and ko opposing weather starters. this would make hail and sun more useable simply by having an extremely good strategy of winning the weather war. one example that comes to mind is a scarf genesect+focus sash dugtrio combo on a rain team. genesect's u turn threatens tyranitar and abomasnow and dugtrio can trap and ko ttar and ninetales no problem. some sort of way to give sun and hail starters a better chance at outlasting politoed or ttar would solve a major problem as to why they aren't used more in the first place.

anyways this is mostly looking ahead but i think it shows how this topic could lead to many interesting opportunities and how it really applies well to the current ou metagame
bugmaniacbob said:
Now this is nifty. I heard a lot of talk on IRC about stuff like Perish Song Trappers, Wrap, and the like - while these would be a bit too limiting for my tastes, there is no doubt that this would make for a goodish Project with plenty of interesting discussion and dare I say not an undue number of avenues that could be explored. The possibilities are quite endless - my only moderate gripe is that, very possibly, whatever we decide to do will be very limiting, as we are going to have to restrict it to very definite roles, such as "Normal-type offence" or "Bulky Trapper" that aren't particularly deep concepts in and of themselves. On the other hand, the sheer number of ancient niches that exist - Parafusion, bulky set-up (Curselax and CroCune spring to mind), Toxic-stallers, pure support, even Trick Room to an extent - not to mention the revival of some old niches already in BW (Reuniclus with bulky set-up alongside Psychic-type offence). I really like this, but at the same time I'm wary of how many directions it could go in.

I felt like replying to some of the criticisims. While most avenues are seemingly shallow, there's quite a bit more to be looked at. "Normal type offence," for instance, seems basic. And then you look at the logistics. There are many excellent possible normal attackers available to OU, but none are popular. How would RBY-style normal offence even work without slash and hyper beam? How could it bypass the typical counters to it without being shut down to the point of not being viable? Questions like these make the process a bit less limiting than it would initially appear. Even the most limiting roles possible (Wrap/PerishTrapping/Bulky set up) still would require discussion and creativity to make the role work in a metagame that is not kind to the playstyle, and there is certainly more than one viable way to approach almost any past niche.

The sheer number of avenues is certainly a big factor in this project. It would probably make the initial discussions a bit different than normal, but if anything it gives us a chance to look at how many possibilites there are, and select one that is limiting enough to provide direction, but not excessively so.
Name: Matchmaker

General Description: This Pokemon can bring two other Pokemon together as a team.

Justification: With how much the metagame changes from game to game with new Pokemon, Moves, Abilities, and type combinations, it is difficult for Pokemon to remain a team, as one may receive far better boosts and upgrades than than the other. This CAP should be designed in a way that each Pokemon can form new teammates with wholly different Pokemon so it can remain part of a dynamic duo.

Questions To Be Answered

- In general, how would you prepare two Pokemon for a team in the midst of battle, where a wrong move could cost you the match?
- What OU Pokemon were able to find a partner with the assistance of CAP 4?
- What were common techniques that caused two Pokemon to adhere to each other?
- Could CAP 4 be able to form a mate for itself in the OU metagame as well as others?
- How has CAP 4 influenced the OU metagame due to new companionships being formed?

Explanation: The real inspiration for this concept when I remembered, "Oh yeah, Voodoom exists." So many Pokemon have fallen from grace since 5th gen came around, and Voodoom is living proof. It's common teammates for it's concept, (Perfect Mate, for those who don't recall) namely Zapdos and Togekiss, have been outclassed and have since been banished to the UU tier, where they likely shall remain. So I thought, why can't another Pokemon be it's mate? How would you shape a Pokemon to fill such a dynamic role? HOWEVER this does not necessarily mean they have to be a perfect two like SkarmBliss CeleTran and FerroCent, but they can give much needed assistance in areas only one Pokemon cannot provide. CAP 4 could be defensive to do things like set up and eliminate common barriers that prevent adhesion, or be offensive and do the same. This could mean a versatile Pokemon, that can adapt to fit the needs of those who need it's assistance. However this does not mean these are the only roles it can fulfill when making two Pokemon a team.

Rethinking the way we look at the OU metagame is part of this CAP, because giving someone the right help they need, can send it soaring into greatness.


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Name: Decentralizing the Metagame (Playstyle Addition)

General Description: A pokemon who's presence reduces the effectiveness of game defining moves or abilities to the point that things hard countered by said moves or abilities are once again usable in the Overused Metagame, and that pokemon who's usability in the Overused Metagame is 100% dependent on said move, type, or ability are not able to hold onto their popularity.

Justification: Game changing moves/abilities have, apart from changing how we play the game, changed who we play it with. With the inclusion of Stealth Rock once prominent pokemon have fallen to the depths of Neverused. Charizard is the quintessential characteristic of a bad ubers player, while Articuno's only real relevance in the current metagame is explaining to newcomers that legendaries aren't automatically good. Many pokemon, such as Lilligant, Kabutops, and any weather starter not named Tyranitar (and possibly Hippowdon) owe their tier almost solely to their ability to benefit from, or provide a battlefield effect through the use of their ability.

Questions To Be Answered: (See rules below.)
  • Can a single pokemon limit a move or ability to the point of helping or hindering a pokemon being drastically affected by said move or ability?
  • In addition to reducing the impact of the move/ability of our choice, will our choices also impact other moves, abilities, or even pokemon?
  • Can we make a pokemon built to handle a specific move/ability that will be able to function normally without the presence of said move/ability on the opposing team. or will its success be just as tied to the ability/move as the pokemon we're attempting to help/hinder through Decentralizing the Metagame?
Explanation: When writing this, I wanted to cover enough ground, but not cover too much ground. This is about moves and abilities only, Decentralizing niches of pokemon has already been done before (Arghonaut). Furthermore, this should not be about signaling out a single pokemon, we shouldn't be trying to create a pokemon that hurts Multiscale because we hate Dragonite. We should be applying the concept to a wider spectrum of things then that. Prominent examples include reducing the viability of hazards to enable pokemon hampered by typing relative to Stealth Rock damage and wether or not they are affected by Spikes, as well as reducing the clout of weather in OU to lower down pokemon that would not be there without it.
Name: Ultimate Counter

General Description: A Pokemon that, by any means, can counter a large portion of the common threats in OU, with its offenses and Speed being high enough and its movepool wide enough to not have the typical syndrome that walls have of being unable to hit the things it counters back. This Pokemon will be one of the few of its kind that will not be troubled with stall.

Justification: With the advent of BW2, there are many threats that can be extremely hard to counter, or even impossible, such as SubSD Rock Gem Terrakion, Substitute + NP Thundurus-T, LO Tornadus-T, and CB Dragonite, just to name a few. Stall teams often have trouble fitting Pokemon to cover threats and still have the utilities they need to function, such as Rapid Spin, hazards, cleric support, etc. This can also apply to balance teams as well, which, as they are a mixture of offense and defense, need to have each Pokemon to deal with the maximum amount of threats possible. Even bulky offense teams could profit, as the ideal realization of this CAP in my mind is one that has offenses, Speed, and bulk, which is pretty much god for bulky offense teams. With this CAP, we will hopefully be able to have a Pokemon that can counter a variety of threats on its own and be quite the threat on its own.

Questions To Be Answered:

  • How can a Pokemon counter a large amount of threats and also be powerful as well as fast but not be overpowered?
  • How will different types of teams profit from this CAP's presence?
  • What roles can this CAP fill while still being able to counter a large amount of threats?
  • What tools do we need to give a Pokemon in order to be able to counter a large amount of threats?
  • In what ways will different teams be able to deal with a Pokemon that might just be able to take on by a large amount of their team?
  • Obviously this CAP would take diversity to the next level. How is it possible to limit the effectiveness of this CAP in order for it to not be completely impossible to guess its set?
  • Would this CAP completely centralize the metagame? How would we stop this decentralization?

    Explanation: While this CAP may seem set to be perfect, there are many ways that we can limit it. This CAP should be able to function on any kind of team and do so well, but we can easily make it not overpowered, whether it be by virtue of stats, ability, typing, or anything else. This CAP would ideally be able to take on many of the most powerful attackers in the game and retaliate, but keeping it out of being broken should not be terribly difficult. One of the major goals I think that this CAP can achieve is how a completely optimized Pokemon can be not broken, in a similar vein to Garchomp without Sand Veil might be. While it may seem like a far-fetched goal, this CAP will not only be among the best of the best but will also have weaknesses like the best of the best. Whatever its more technical features may be, this Pokemon will make it easier for teams that need, say, a counter to Terrakion that doesn't falter against most special attackers, or something to that effect.
So far, from my ignorant perspective, I've liked several of these:

Three Ways to Play
Alternate Formes
Time Capsule
Breaking Point (overpowered defense though, not offense)
Dare to be Different

And here's my awkward concept idea:
Name: Gimmicks Galore

General Description: This CAP would attempt to use abilities or moves which are generally considered useless and turn them into powerful advantages over 'better equipped' pokemon.

Justification: CAP4 would show us how the metagame reacts to uncommon or virtually non-existant variables, as well as potentially adding new ones through generally unused pokemon or items.

Questions To Be Answered:
-What does it take to make gimmick abilities or moves viable in standard play?
-How does the presence of gimmicks affect more common, 'good' abilities and moves?
-Despite our hard work, would CAP4 be able to shine? or would it be overshadowed by another, existing pokemon?
-What roles would CAP4 be best suited for?
-Which pokemon are best countered by CAP4? Which best counter it?
-Which pokemon synergize well with CAP4? Which pokemon do not?
-Could CAP4 allow other relatively unused pokemon to become viable through virtue of its gimmicks?

Explanation: This concept is heavily influenced by the Balanced Hackmons teir, which is almost entirely based on using gimmicks to your advantage. Contrary users boost their stats while dealing out massive damage with Draco Meteor, V-Create and other such ilk. Imposter Blissey becomes your pokemon, but with more staying power. Harvester Lum Berry Rest pokemon can sweep your entire team while remaining immune to status and having reliable recovery. Shadow Tag and Perish Song become a deadly combination in the right hands. I could go on forever, but I'll get to the point. If CAP4 were to harness these moves and abilities to their full potential, it might be just the step up that some other pokemon need to become viable, or it might just fit into niche already occupied, or currently vacant. Any direction this goes however, will be sure to yield interesting results.
Concept: "Versatile Anti-Meta Bulky Pivot"

Description: A very bulky pokemon whose typeage, abilities, and movepool allow it to switch into and take on a variety of both CAP and OU threats.

Justification: There are numerous threats in both the OU and CAP metagame that are very difficult to switch into and beat one on one, especially when used in tandem and or if they have set-up already. These include: Tomohawk, Mollusk, Krillowatt, Syclant, Tornadus-T, Keldeo, Terrakion, Conkelldurr, Mamoswine, Gothitelle and Dugtrio (trapping abilities are annoying when paired with some of the other mons), Salamence, Haxorus, and others. These pokemon ravage the CAP and OU metagame and the tiers need something that can act as a stop to multiple pokemon to create a more balanced and fun metagame.

Questions To Be Answered:
How would it compare to other bulky pivots?
How would it compare to other anti-meta pokemon?
Which OU/CAP pokemon are countered by this pokemon?
How would this pokemon be able to effectively get over trapping strategies such as dragmag?
What ability would it use to help it out in countering threats?
What typeage would it use to help it out in countering threats?
How would this pokemon be able to stop set up sweepers if they come in on it?

Explanation: This would be a rather fun pokemon to do for CAP because it can essentially be many different type combos, movepools, etc. It would really be a breath of fresh air for the CAP metagame because, due to its success in checking the metagame, it would limit high powered pokemon and let new, fun teams shine through. Any good types defensively, such as steel, ghost, poison, ground, and defensive abilities could work for it and could be about supporting its team via wish, rapid spin, hazards, etc. or abusing its typeage and abilities affect on the meta to set up itself; adding to its versatility. On many teams I've built, I have needed the last pokemon to counter two giant threats to my team and this pokemon would be the perfect pokemon to fill that role and make teambuilding much easier and effective.


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Final Submission

Name: Perfect Nemesis

General Description: Pick a good-but-not-great OU Pokemon, and then concoct a Pokemon that threats the majority of Overused tier, but is hard countered by the base Pokemon we previously selected. This is similar to the way Gastrodon's usage rose dramatically due to its ability to counter to its Perfect Nemesis: Politoed.


This concept would give us the chance to discuss a plethora of aspects that define competitive Pokemon as we know it. First, we'd discover how exactly counters work, from deciding what makes a good counter to discussing the tools Pokemon use to counter and check threats. There is confusion between what exactly is the difference between a check and a counter; this concept also aims to clear up that confusion with in-depth discussion on specific defensive and offensive strategies that are used in the Overused tier to both stop and dethrone threats. In fact, it aims to dive even further into our current understanding of these terms to give us more knowledge.

Through this concept, we'd also perform an in-depth analysis on the current composition of the Overused metagame, similar to the "decentralizer" concepts. Which strategies dominate it, and how can we threaten those strategies? The Perfect Nemesis would need to make a statement in the tier, so we'd need to discuss how to create a Pokemon that can make a splash in OU.

Finally, we would get the chance to discuss outclassed Pokemon. When selecting our currently existing base Pokemon, we'd consider which advantages that Pokemon has that sets it apart from the others. Getting to dissect the positives of an often overlooked group of Pokemon could be fascinating. Furthermore, it would be certainly exciting to breathe some life into that Pokemon by giving it a brand new role and purpose in the Overused tier!

Questions To Be Answered:
  • In order to create the Perfect Nemesis, we need to make a Pokemon that threatens the Overused tier. What strategies, moves, and abilities can be introduced to threaten OU as a whole? What are the tiers "weak points", so to speak?
  • What exactly is a counter? What is a check? How does the good-but-not-great Pokemon use these definitions to take on the Perfect Nemesis?
  • What are the current positives to the base Pokemon we select? What unique niches does it hold over other Pokemon that currently outclass it?
  • What strategies are more effective for the base pokemon we choose, as a result of having a Perfect Nemesis? Can it run more than one effective set to defeat our creation? Does it also do well as a check or counter against the Perfect Nemesis' regular teammates?
  • How does the base Pokemon fare in Overused with the introduction of its Perfect Nemesis? Does it counter or check other Pokemon besides the Perfect Nemesis? How?


This concept might have given you a bit of déjà vu. The fact is, this concept submission is based heavily off of the winning concept of CAP11 (Voodoom), which was Perfect Mate (much of the credit for this concept belongs to DougJustDoug). However, it is the inverse of that concept; instead of making a partner to raise a base Pokemon's usage, we'll be making a nemesis to raise a base Pokemon's usage. I feel that Perfect Nemeses are something that occurs often in our tiers. Gastrodon is a prime example of this, thanks to its fantastic ability to counter Politoed, and by extension, rain. Dugtrio is another great example of this since it could take out many of the newly introduced BW threats with ease. Many of these Perfect Nemeses are created when a new Pokemon is introduced. In the case of Dugtrio and Gastrodon, Generation 5 occurred. So in our case, the base Pokemon we select will rise in usage and viability when its Perfect Nemesis that we create is introduced. Simply put, our goal would be to create a threat that opens a gap for a currently outclassed Pokemon to shine brightly in Overused.

The Pokemon that we choose as our base Pokemon could represent a host of traits. Perhaps it is a fantastic bulky, defensive Pokemon that has an unfortunate Achilles' heel, like a x4 weakness or a lackluster movepool. On the other hand, maybe we choose a fast and frail Pokemon that could come to defeat the Perfect Nemesis that we create. That Pokemon might not shine at the moment because of being outclassed by others that currently do its job better. There are a lot of directions in which we could take this; the concept is flexible.

Also, know that I am completely aware of the Counters page on the CAP site. While I think it is a fantastic source of information, I am not overly convinced that every kind of Pokemon can be defined by its rules. Remember, that page gives guidelines for what makes a hard counter, not a simple counter or check. Furthermore, it doesn't dig down to discuss the variability of being a counter or a check; I'd argue that is a bit of an unexplored area of competitive Pokemon in general. With this concept, however, we'd get to talk openly about all of the blurry generalizations about checks and counters, which would certainly be beneficial for all of us. I hope we can refer to that page when discussing this CAP's counters, absolutely. I am simply stating that I am skeptical if we have truly learned everything there is to know about counters and checks just yet, so why not push for even more understanding?

As you can probably tell, this concept is a bit of a complete package. We get to have some in-depth discussion on which strategies are the best against the Overused tier, and then create a Pokemon that takes full advantage of those weaknesses. Also, we'd get to have some fun with picking a base Pokemon to the ranks of OU, which would teach us about how outclassing works. Along with that, we'd talk about why the base Pokemon we select doesn't currently thrive in OU; what holds it back? We'd even get the chance to discuss what makes a counter and what makes a check when deciding our base Pokemon. Finally, this concept would allow us to explore how to take out threats in Overused. There's a lot for us to learn with this concept; if you vote for this, then I hope that you are hungry for knowledge!
I'd just want to throw in my support behind a few of the currently slated concepts that catch my eye, namely Unpredictable Wall, Deceiver, Living On the Edge and possibly Higher Ground.... oh and Perfect Nemesis (that just got posted as I was writing this). I'm really curious what directions the discussion of these concepts would go, and hold high hopes of them. Still, best of luck to everyone participating.
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