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CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 1 - Concept Submissions

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by capefeather, Sep 10, 2012.

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  1. vonFiedler

    vonFiedler Visualize It
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    Any Mixed wall can put EVs into Physical or Special Defense but still take both sides of the spectrum alright unless SE. Unpredictability exists but in movesets. I'm talking about a mon that could wall either Physical or Special, but not both at the same time.
  2. phoopes

    phoopes The Boss
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    Gonna go with the submission I posted previously, with a few tweaks.

    Name: Hyper Offense Revival

    General Description: Many say that stall is dead. However, another style of play has been dying recently too: Hyper Offense. This CAPmon would attempt to bring back the playability that Hyper Offense once had before the ban of key players in the Hyper Offense playstyle.

    Justification: By making a CAPmon that supports Hyper Offense, we would be bringing a style of play back into the fold. Rather than seeing weather on every other team, more variety would be introduced to the OU metagame. The most used OU Pokemon rarely change. For example, the top eight Pokemon in the month of August were Politoed, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Dragonite, Heatran, Tyranitar, Jirachi, and Gliscor. All of them are consistently used on weather teams, with two even being weather starters. With the reintroduction of a playstlye, this could again add variety to the OU metagame, by changing the types of Pokemon that you would see on a regular basis.

    Questions to be Answered:
    • Can the Hyper Offense playstyle become viable again?
    • Can the dominance of the weather and VolTurn playstyles be usurped?
    • Can the roles of banned Pokemon be played just as well by a new Pokemon?
    • Will there be more variety in the Pokemon that one would see in the OU metagame if Hyper Offense regains popularity?
    • Will other playstyles become more popular as well to act as a counter to Hyper Offense?
    • Which lesser-used Pokemon can benefit from the new buffer to Hyper Offense?
    • Which OU Pokemon can most effectively take advantage of the Hyper Offense playstyle?
    • Can a new threat introduced in Black and White 2 help Hyper Offense teams to be successful?

    Explanation: Ever since the ban of key Hyper Offense Pokemon such as Deoxys-S and Thundurrus, there has been a decline in the use of that playstyle, while other playstyles like weather and VolTurn have gained even more popularity. However, there are still many great offensive Pokemon out there, showing that it wouldn't take much for Hyper Offense to make an effective comeback. It just needs that little nudge to be great again. The goal of this CAPmon would be to create a Pokemon that can effectively bring this style of play back into the fold. With Black and White 2 bringing even more threats such as Keldeo and Genesect to the table, and the possible re-addition of Garchomp to the OU metagame, Hyper Offense is right on the brink of becoming a commonly seen playstyle again.

    What makes this concept even more intriguing is that there are a few different options for what the new Pokemon could become. The new Pokemon could be similar to the great double screens lead that Deoxys-S used to be, or it could be created as the fearsome set-up sweeper that Thundurrus was. As a double screens lead, the CAP could benefit the set-up sweepers that Hyper Offense was renowned for, such as Terrakion or Dragonite. Currently, there are a few Pokemon that can fulfill this role of a Dual Screener, like Deoxys-D and Alakazam. However, none have been as successful as Deoxys-S, one of the reasons why Hyper Offense usage dropped once it was banned. As a set-up sweeper, it could fulfill the roll as a must-have on a Hyper Offense team that Thundurrus was, which nothing has truly replaced since. One of the newer threats from Black and White 2 could fulfill this role on a Hyper Offense team, however none have been used extensively in that playstyle yet, so it would be interesting to see how players tinker with their Hyper Offense teams should a CAPmon with this concept be made.

    If Hyper Offense would return to its former glory, how would that effect the usage of the current most popular playstyles, weather and VolTurn? This is yet another reason why the reintroduction of Hyper Offense could be intriguing. Hyper Offense seeing an upward trend in usage would force players to counter it, and thus a playstyle like stall might be used more often. It would almost certainly create a wider variety in what Pokemon an OU player would normally see. While not used as often, behind the Dual Screens that are a trademark of Hyper Offense some lower tier set up sweepers, like Shell Smash Omastar, could see some usage. A wider variety of Pokemon seen and a shake-up in what playstyles are used are undoubtedly good for the metagame, so a revival in Hyper Offense could potentially help the OU metagame become more diverse.

    Seeing which OU Pokemon can take advantage most, and what lesser-used Pokemon could benefit the most from the Hyper Offense CAP would be interesting as well. If the CAP would be a double screens lead, which would benefit more, Virizion or Cloyster? And would something like Belly Drum Linoone suddenly become viable? A Dual Screens CAP could potentially highlight the strengths of OU Pokemon that are low in usage, and lower tiered Pokemon as well. If the CAP were a set-up sweeper, would Deoxys-D or Alakazam see more use as a double screen lead? Or would Uxie have its time to shine? With the creation of another great offensive Pokemon that would push Hyper Offense over the edge to becoming viable again, which one of the array of Dual Screeners out there that would be most used would be interesting to see as well.

    In conclusion, reviving the Hyper Offense playstyle could teach us so much about the OU metagame. Instead of this CAP being a Pokemon that fulfills a certain role in the current metagame, it could expand the metagame into a larger playing field, where more Pokemon could see consistent use. The very OU metagame itself could be shaken up by the introduction of a Hyper Offense-related CAP. Thank you for the consideration.
  3. GRs Cousin

    GRs Cousin

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    Alright, so with capefeather's permission granted, I'd like to open the table to this concept:
    As said within the concept, there would be a lot of surprising things to explore in the concept. While weather-slayers/rain-counters would be concepts that help to balance the CAP Metagame, having a concept that explores completely untreaded territory like this would actually teach us the most, the whole point of CAP in the first place. Contrary could be explored without spamming Leaf Storm or playing Streetmons. Usually "bad" moves like Bounce or Reflect Type could actually find niches outside of their use if our concept goes their way. Honestly, we could really have a lot of fun in this concept if we look at it objectively and figure out just how unorthodox we're going with this.
  4. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego This is what is technically known as a Firecat
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    Concept: Bringing Back Leads

    Description: A pokemon that has all the tools it needs to help various types of teams get the upper hand of a match

    Justification: Since the BW metagame arrived and team preview was implemented, a large section of competitive pokemon was eschewed: the lead match-up. Leads were mostly forgotten, due to the fact that many traditional setup leads and anti-leads were forgotten once a counter could be sent out in the very beginning of a match. With this pokemon, a team could not use a reliable lead each game, but the opponent could also start carrying counter leads, bringing a fresh start back to the beginning of each match.


    Questions to be Answered:
    -
    What are the qualities of a good lead?
    -Can one pokemon fulfill the opening-game needs of various team archetypes?
    -Can a "perfect lead" pull its weight outside of the opening position?
    -Can one great lead pokemon jump start a whole new metagame based on leads?
    -What abilities and moves are necessary to succeed as a lead?
    -Most importantly, can leads succeed in a metagame filled with team preview?

    Explanation: An "all-hazards" type lead sounds interesting, but is vulnerable unless it caries something like magic coat like deoxys-S...but we all know what happened to that. Magic Bounce or a Ghost-typing could be implemented to prevent its hazards from being spun away or being perfect taunt bait. However, an attacking lead could work as well. These leads were the perfect counters to frail, hazard-stacking leads a generation ago, and could work by blasting powerful moves from the start of a match. Or, a combination of the two could be used, in order to guarantee maximum effectiveness in the opening stages of a match.
  5. Name: Troll Evolution?

    General Description: Remember when we first saw the designs for Alomomola and Bouffalant and swore up and down that they must be evolutions for Luvdisc and Tauros respectively, but then it turns out we were just being trolled? Essentially, we'll be making one of those troll Pokemon, except that the similarity to [insert existing Pokemon X] should extend beyond the mere visual design and into mechanical niche.

    Justification: While there are many ways to succeed in the execution of this concept, I think that the most compelling and rewarding are indeed the possible scenarios where we use it as an opportunity to introduce a new viable niche to the OU metagame by improving, modifying, and/or expanding upon a niche that already exists on a Pokemon that simply cannot compete well enough for it and its niche to already be considered viable in the OU metagame.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    * What are competitive niches that CAP might normally overlook creating, because those niches are already deemed to have failed in existing Pokemon?
    * Which competitively nonviable Pokemon have niches that would be new and desirable to the OU metagame if they could be pulled off by a new, more viable Pokemon?
    * Why does [insert existing Pokemon X] fail to viably bring its niche to OU, and what would it take to bring that unique niche to OU successfully?

    Explanation:
    Okay, so this is actually a synthesis of a bunch of different inspirations. The first major inspiration that this draws from is the EVO Project, a failed CAP project between DPP's CAP4 and CAP5. The second major inspiration that this draws from is the concept of using CAP to improve or "fix" existing Pokemon, an idea which CAP has consistently (and correctly, in my opinion) rejected. Finally, the third major inspiration that this draws from is articles from The Smog like this and this, each written by great CAP contributors.

    Basically, this concept is intended to fulfill part of the purposes of all of those concepts but without any of the baggage. By creating a troll Pokemon, we are free to explore the idea of messing with what existing Pokemon have done without feeling required in any way to adhere to attributes of those Pokemon that do not serve our purposes. For example, one of the major constraints of the EVO Project was that the move-pool of the new evolution would necessarily include all moves in the move-pools of the existing Pokemon, but because the Pokemon here would not actually be related to our base Pokemon in any way, that would not be a concern.

    The interesting thing about this concept, in my opinion, is that it incorporates elements both competitive and flavorful. That is, the members of the community can get excited about it and interested in the project even if they're not yet well versed in some of the competitive aspects of the game, and I think that will be good for participation without compromising the competitive focus that CAP is intended to have.

    There are as many possible avenues to take when exploring this concept as there are existing Pokemon, though I have to stress that the existing base Pokemon we should draw inspiration from (the "existing Pokemon X" referred to above) should be one that we can easily judge to already have a unique niche that just needs to be refined. We could make a Shuckle-like mixed-wall Pokemon with recovery moves and better typing. We could make an Ampharos-like Pokemon, a slow and bulky Electric set-up sweeper. We could even play this backwards and create something like a trolling-not-really-prevo for an Uber Pokemon like Groudon to bring their style down to OU (because I know everybody wants that Drought-CAP). And these are just off of the top of my head.



    EDIT: I just want to call out some of the other concepts most interesting to me.

    Meganium Sulfate's "Alternate Forms" is actually close to something that I was considering submitting myself, and I still think that it'd make a very neat CAP. I even asked some CAP leaders on IRC before if there would be any objection to allowing an ability like Forecast or a move like Relic Song to function for a CAP even though they normally do not function at all except for with their intended Pokemon, and there didn't seem to be any objection.

    forestflamerunner's "Dare To Be Different" sounds very intriguing to me. I'm skeptical that it could be pulled off easily, but a challenge isn't bad.

    Clankenator007's "Taking an Uber Down a Notch" is an interesting and original take on similar concepts. The "Justification" section is going to need to be better developed, though.
  6. Metal Bagon

    Metal Bagon

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    [​IMG]

    Anyway, isn't artwork after typing? If so then I'd be pretty hard to pull this off if we get something like poison/dragon.
  7. Master of the Six Kings

    Master of the Six Kings

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    Name: Dumpster Diver

    General Description: A Pokemon who has all the right tools to thrive with a lackluster or hindering ability.

    Justification: With the advent of Dream World abilities this generation, we have seen Pokemon jump from NU's punching bags to solid members of the OU metagame (Politoed, Ninetales, Gastrodon, Espeon etc) showing how much of an affect a good ability can have on otherwise unusable Pokemon. We've also seen balanced hackmons remove restrictive abilities off of Pokemon like Regigigas and Slaking to become unrivaled threats. Even in all of the current Capmons, the ability is either one of the best in exsistance (or customizied for the same effect) or justification to give it better stats. This concept focuses on taking an underappreciated or unwanted ability to its fullest potential.

    Questions to be answered:
    -Can any ability with an in-battle effect be made usable on the right Pokemon?
    -What tools are needed to overcome an ability that is unfavorable or undesirable to a Pokemon in the CAP meta?
    -Where is the line between compensating for an ability and intigrating an ability into a Pokemon?

    Explination: After 5 generations we still haven't really seen much success out of Pokemon who have been exclusively bad abilities. Slaking and Regigigas are stuck down too far under NU's shoes to ever get out and Archeops, even with an hindering ability that isn't always active only does moderately well in RU. Shedinja on the other hand shows that if you put too much strain on a Pokemon to justify an ability, it can crumble apart just as easily. If there was ever a place to make the Archeops of "OU", CAP is the place for it.

    On the other hand, some abilities are just waiting to be sculpted around. Lopunny and Klutz showed that under the right conditions, a Pokemon can use an awkward ability to form a real niche. Abilities like Stall, Normalize, Own Tempo, Pickpocket, Analytic etc all scream out to be abused in some way. These will help solidify a Pokemon from the pack. Great examples are Dugtrio and Ninjask. These Pokemon have very set roles based and boundries associated with their Abilities, movepools, typing and stats. With the generation change up they have also swapped places from NU and OU, while retaining their same niches in both tiers they entered. This kinda of Pokemon design ensures that even in an ever changing metagame, that a Pokemon who formes a niche can survive falling out of favor and bouncing back (assuming its niche isn't reinvented better by a new threat). Forewarn is currently the worst ability a CAPmon is really pushed into and even then, it is just a sidenote to allow for huge stats and access to Sketch. I think we can dig much lower in the barrel and come out with something much more concrete to the purpose than some of the current results.
  8. Whoops, you're right. Switched Luvdisc and Tauros.

    I don't follow. Artwork would go after typing for this concept as with any other. Either way, while the artwork part of it may be interesting, it'll all go after concept assessment, which is where I'd assume we'd discuss and then select which existing Pokemon we want to troll. I don't see how ending up deciding on something like Poison/Dragon for typing would complicate anything. The typing of our CAP does not have to be identical to the typing of the existing Pokemon that we model it after, so completely new and original typing is still totally doable (and, considering the CAP Project's general track record, likely). That's the beauty of the concept; if we want to, we get to "pretend" we're doing that evolution project or fixing an existing Pokemon, but the reality is that we're making an entirely new Pokemon and thus only really need feel constrained by mimicking intended competitive niche and probably artwork.
  9. kalamadude

    kalamadude

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    Name: One Trick Pony

    General Description: Can we build a Pokémon that would still be OU even though it can only run one possible set?

    Justification: This, I think, would be an excellent opportunity to study the process of CAP, rather than just the end result. Take a look at our past CAPs. They're good. They're really good. Many of them can run hugely different movesets, can fill multiple niches, can wreck from both sides of the spectrum. They are enormously versatile. In fact, most real OU Pokémon have multiple possible sets they can run reasonable well. If we make something can only do one thing, even if it does it exceptionally well, will that be enough? Or will it just be tossed aside? I think this is a good time to find out.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    • What sorts of sets are useful even if the opponent knows full well what the set is?
    • How will Team Preview affect our CAP, when your opponent can look at your team and know with certainty the moveset, ability, and role of one of your teammates?
    • If the set our CAP runs has traditionally been used by another Pokémon, will that Pokémon decline in usage in the presence of something that does its old job perfectly? Or will this old Pokémon resort to it's other sets that may have been less popular in the past?
    • Are we capable, as a community, of making a CAP that can only do one thing and yet still get that balance between overpowered uber and useless trash?
    • How good does a set have to be to single-handedly drag a Pokémon into OU? How good does it have to be to put it over the edge into uber?
    • Exactly how important is surprise in Pokémon battling? We can tackle this from the opposite direction - by making something that is completely predictable.

    Explanation: I've sensed some interest in approaching a CAP with the goal of restraining ourselves a bit. We caught a smidge of that with Mollux, since we saddled ourselves with a concept necessitating a bad typing, but then we proceeded to take the bad typing, remove most of the bad stuff about it, and make yet another superpowerful CAP. For God's sake, look at how many CAPs have Rapid Spin, a move that is very very scarcely handed out to real Pokémon. Now the important thing to do is to make sure that our CAP's set is so good as to still make it worthwhile. Some possible examples I can think of are:

    • Make it a surefire 100% counter to a few incredibly common Pokémon
    • Make a perfect Rapid Spinner that can deal with every single spinblocker (I'm not a huge fan of this - like I said, we are too triggerhappy with Rapid Spin as it is)
    • Make a tremendously powerful set-up sweeper with only three good moves and a set-up move (with the rest of the movelist being garbage)
    Another issue is the feasibility of a Pokémon who can only do one thing. Perhaps being completely limited to one set is unreasonable. Our CAP may be able to run other sets, but they would all be completely and utterly outclassed by other Pokémon, meaning only the one set is even worth attempting. I can think of a few examples in OU at the moment. Wobbuffet, of course, can have very slightly different movesets, but it can only do one thing: trap. Your opponent will have no doubt what its purpose is upon seeing the Team Preview. Dugtrio, similarly, can do very little other than trap a handful of specific Pokémon and, sometimes, put up Stealth Rock. Again, very predictable. In the same vein, Cloyster follows the "sweeper" version I mentioned above. Sure, there is the odd Rapid Spin version, but they are exceptionally rare compared to the Shell Smash sweeper with Icicle Spear / Rock Blast / Water move. Completely predictable, while the Rapid Spinner set is completely outclassed by Starmie (offensively) and Tentacruel / Blastoise (defensively). I feel like this concept is both open-ended, as well as severely limiting, which I think is the way to go with this CAP. We don't want our Concept to be too specific and give us no say in the development, but we don't want it to be open ended enough to allow us to make our usual jack-of-all-trades. I am genuinely interested in seeing what sort of set we would decide to approach, how that would impact current users of that set/that niche, and whether something that is only good for one thing could ever be a viable threat in the fast-paced world of BW2 OU.
  10. MysticNova

    MysticNova

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    Concept: Trick Typing

    General Description: A Pokemon that uses the weaknesses of its typing as resists, and its resists as weaknesses in order to create a unique combination of defense and offense that wouldn't be able to be seen anywhere else.

    Justification: Such a Pokemon would be able to counter top threats without having to resort the the same typings over and over. You would also be able to have powerful offensive STABs without having a horrible typing. This would increase diversity in the amount of choices and what each choice offers when teambuilding. A lot of things can threaten or OHKO another Pokemon, but can't switch in to do it. This would allow you to have the same offensive STAB's that can defeat the same Pokemon, but you can now switch into such Pokemon. Once again, this creates a unique combination of offense and defense that wouldn't be able to be seen anywhere else, while allowing horrible typings defensively, but good offensively, such as Ice or Fire, shine.

    Questions to be Answered:
    • How would a Pokemon activate this ability/trait?
    • What threats can and should be covered by the Pokemon utilizing its ability/trait?
    • What sort of typings would be best suited for the metagame?
    • Should a field effect be created?
    • What is an ideal balance between defensive and offensive capabilities?
    • Should the Pokemon be focused towards either defensive or offensive?
    • How would immunities play into this?
    • Can the Pokemon still use its original typing effectively (defensively)?
    • How would this influence the way this Pokemon is played or played against?
    • Can the Pokemon offer a unique niche that nothing else can offer without its special ability/trait?
    • Will it be difficult to find a counter for this Pokemon?
    • Should this Pokemon be related to weather-either for or against it?

    Explanation: Typing has always been one of the most deciding factors in determining the viability of a Pokemon. Just look at the Rotom formes. Especially Rotom-F. BoltBeam STAB should make it a top tier Pokemon right? Nope barely gets any usage even in NU, simply because its typing sucks (and Blizzard over Ice Beam, but not really, probably would still be NU). But what if we could turn that typing right around, and create something with amazing STAB's, while having a great and unique set of resists. The one thing that I would say that is most similar to this concept that already exists would be Heatran. Nothing takes on Sun like it does, and all of its resists/immunites are unique and something only it can offer. I want to take this one step further, and see if an even greater level of uniqueness can be achieved.

    Obviously, it will take some time to go through multiple type combinations to find an ideal type, but something that has really caught my eye in this concept is the possibility of the unpredictability of what said Pokemon's resists actually are. For this unpredictability factor to work, said Pokemon must have a fast "type changing move" or have multiple abilities. This doesn't really have to be implemented, since its probably too complex to incorporate all of that in and might take away from what the Pokemon does, but its just something that I think would be cool to have incorporated.
  11. Scoopapa

    Scoopapa
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    Name: Weather Equalizer

    General Description: This Pokemon's existence would give a large buff to one of the lesser-used weathers, such that weather teams with CAP4 could compete with established Rain and Sand teams.

    Justification: It is no secret that Rain and Sand dominate OU in terms of usage, but they also exhibit a very wide variety of team types and playstyles. Hail and Sun, on the other hand, are limited in viability to certain niches, and tend to have to devote lots of resources to anti-metagame considerations (i.e. Dugtrio) in order to be successful. This concept would aim to expand Hail or Sun beyond its current niche to a point where it can influence the metagame as much as it responds to it.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    - What are the challenges faced by Sun or Hail teams in the current meta?
    - Which of these will need to be overcome, and to what extent, in order to make the weather in question more viable?
    - Is Sun/Hail inherently worse than Rain or Sand, (taking combo bans into account) or is it simply a matter of what pokemon exist to be supported by them?
    - Is one pokemon enough to affect the desired change to a weather? How strong does such a pokemon need to be in order to accomplish this goal?

    Explanation:

    The purpose of this concept would be to strengthen an underused weather condition to the point where it is competitive with the ubiquitous Rain and Sand. This isn't meant to hone in on a particular playstyle from the outset; it is meant to expand the weather enough that more than one playstyle is doable. Inevitably, a CAP4 that succeeds in this will also succeed in simply improving the niche that currently dominates that particular weather. It would also be foolish not to consider specific teammates and synergy that would be helpful. Still, I think it is important not to turn this concept into a something that fits in a slot on a certain team.

    The goal of the concept as stated is very ambitious, and an absolute equalizing of weathers based on a single pokemon may not even be possible. However, just moving in the direction of the stated goal would give us insight into the questions raised by the concept. This concept would give us a very interesting playtest, as we see what ramifications the new pokemon has not only on the matchups involving our chosen weather but also on the Sand-Rain matchup, as old teams are forced to change to deal with the new weather threat.
  12. akela

    akela

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    Name: Battle of the Sexes
    General Description: A pokemon that gives purpose to choosing its sex and/or other pokemons' sex.
    Justification: Sex is nearly meaningless in today's metagame, despite it being able to be traced back to Generation 1 with Nidoking and Nidoqueen. Many simulators give an option to choose the sex of the pokemon, but most players prefer the default setting. This concept could define the importance of choosing Tornadus over Blissey, Nidoqueen over Nidoking, or Cloyster over Celebi. We will learn what role male, female, and gender/sexless plays in the metagame.
    Questions to be Answered:
    • What role do pokemon with fixed genders play in the metagame?
    • Would existing moves and abilities that are affected by gender rise in usage?
    • How important is the lack of a gender to a pokemon?
    • What differences would there need to be between male and female to keep them distinctly playable but balanced and 1 pokemon?
    • Should genderless be considered a gender option?

    Explanation: The role of a pokemon's gender is rarely thought of in most games. Is there a way to make it impact the metagame? Looking at CAP3, which is a 100% female pokemon. Does that effect its playability? Landorus, Tornadus, and Thundurus are all male. Does that effect their playability? Starmie is genderless. Does that impact its playability? Gender might just be seen as flavor for some, but there are moves and abilities that are affected by it.

    A good portion of this concept is to examine how gender impacts the metagame and pokemon as a whole. When you remove typing, stats, moveset, ability from the list, is there any incentive to choose male, female, or genderless over the other options, or is the gender of your pokemon meaningless flavor?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Feedback is greatly appreciated.
  13. akela, I actually submitted that exact same concept for CAP3, same name even. Long story short, pretty much all of the more competitively-minded people hated it because there are only a small handful of gender-based mechanics, and not even all of them are reliable enough to exploit consistently. In the end, it came down to a single-sex Pokemon with the Rivalry ability, which was just too narrow considering how few single-sex Pokemon there are in OU to try to build it around.
  14. ShinyDreamer

    ShinyDreamer

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    Name: Status-Stat Nightmare
    General Description: A Pokemon that can abuse status conditions and stat drops to torture enemies while probably being immune to a lot of them.
    Justification: I don't remember the phrasing of the rules (been reading other people's submissions), but I think this could be a stall-support. Do any stall-supports exist that can't be taken out by a move that it has access to? This would be that.


    Questions To Be Answered:
    • Would this Pokemon be more offensive or defensive?
    • Would it only have non-damaging moves and moves with special effects?
    • Would it be a counter to a Sheer Force Pokemon - or would the Sheer Force be the nemesis?
    Explanation: We see a lot of problems floating around. Taunt, Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes...not to mention the stat-changing/status-inducing moves, with or without direct damage attached. This would be the Pokemon that has opponents tearing their hair out in frustration while it, I don't know, poisons their Blissey or burns their best sweeper. I wish I knew enough to use better examples, but regardless. The obvious problem with this idea is that it might restrict typing down to two of the types immune to status (fire/ice/poison-or-steel) with an ability like Clear Body, White Smoke or Hyper Cutter...but that's certainly not the only way to go. We could focus on countering one status problem with type and one status problem with ability, or even take advantage of the opponent trying to shut it down with status or stat drops (that would only be for ability, of course: Guts, Marvel Scale, Quick Feet, Tangled Feet, Defiant, Poison Rampage...there was another one that I'm not thinking of...). If we go for alternate forms, that would make for even more possibilities (switching types when the opponent slaps a status on you!).
  15. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    2,293
    Well, now... that's a lot of concepts, and no mistake. Quite a few of them have caught my eye, and annoyingly these may turn out to be harder to choose from than I first thought. Anyway:

    This is certainly an interesting concept, and it has a lot of different avenues that we could explore. Truth be told, I'm not particularly fond of it because of its somewhat heavy reliance on abilities, and I'm always rather wary of any concept that prioritises any part of the process over the others. Still, as you have said, it is a challenge in itself to provide three isolated roles within fixed stats and movepool. My one concern is that most good abilities - those that would make a set - are not as specific to each role as would be ideal. As you said, Gyarados can use either Intimidate or Moxie on similar sets - and defensive abilities such as Natural Cure or Regenerator are just as viable on offensive as they are on defensive Pokemon. Having said that, this could be an opportunity to investigate less obvious abilities, and I can see plenty of ways this can work - I'd say that this is a solid concept at present.

    Hmm. The difficulty with unpredictability in walls is that they are primarily designed to switch into something, which rather diminishes the whole surprise aspect - if, say, you have switched in an Alakazam, and your opponent switches in said unpredictable wall, you are within your rights to bet that it will be a special wall. Of course, you could bluff, that's true, but I'd have thought that the risk involved would make something like Chansey more worthwhile in that situation. Another concern is that the typing, whatever it might be, will almost always favour one of special or physical defence over the other - this is not guaranteed, I grant, but it is a problem nevertheless.

    The thing is that I don't see how this can be achieved without custom abilities - this may be a good thing, as it really is forcing us to think creatively, and I'm not going to discount it purely because I can't see how it will work. Perhaps I'm just paranoid after what happened with Krilowatt - but then, that was quite a good process on the face of it.

    Well, now. If I'm understanding this correctly, you are suggesting something like Slowking to check Keldeo, correct? When I read the Description, I immediately thought of Breloom and Scizor, but then again both of these have stand-out single qualities, such as access to both Technician and priority attacks. Regarding your example, it is probably largely Jellicent's unique typing - making it a spinblocker, check to a large number of Pokemon, etc - that makes it OU, although as you say, Scald, Taunt, and Recover all help. If it didn't have its Ghost-typing, it would be a worse Milotic - and bulky Ghosts are hard to come by.

    I'm afraid I'm finding it hard to find any really good examples - Donphan is perhaps the only one I can really think of, but you said that you didn't want them to be "filling a role" as it were. I do think that this could merit some very interesting discussion, especially as the end product is not obvious by any stretch - my only qualm, as it were, is that Mollux turned out rather similar to this, in terms of being able to check top-tier threats, so I could see this as being a bit too like what we have just done. That's not grounds for disqualifying it, though.

    I'm pretty sure that, um, most of the general attackers in OU are there because they function in all weathers - if any is severely compromised, it's likely not worth the bother in OU (obviously, stuff like Starmie is less effective in sun, but even so, most Dragons find it fairly easy to work in any weather). The only real way to make this interesting, as it were, would be to find some way of making a Pokemon that actually took advantage of all weathers, rather than just being good under them, but this may well be somewhat difficult, given that we only have 4 moveslots to work with.

    I'm slightly confused by your explanation, as that seems to suggest a concept more orientated towards countering weather than towards being a part of it. Perhaps you could clarify that a tad.

    An old but good idea. I'm not terribly keen on it myself, as I rather think that any Pokemon that isn't excellent at any one role is rather unlikely to succeed in the metagame - after all, Mew has 600 BST and can perform nearly every trick there is, yet is only barely OU. Jirachi, on the other hand, has roles that it can fill that no other Pokemon can. In any case, it's been well documented that this is a concept with a good deal of promise, and it's already very well fleshed out, so there's not much I can say beyond my usual reservations.

    Well, this is new. I must say, this is a pretty interesting idea, and no mistake - particularly as it gives us leave to make that Forecast Pokemon we've always dreamed of. I can't say that I agree with your explanation where you necessitate the creation of new game mechanics to make this worthwhile - although if we do not, then our only ways of fulfilling this concept would be Forecast and Relic Song. This is unfortunate, and makes me not quite like this concept as much as I could do. There is very little challenge involved - we make a Pokemon with some means of changing forme in-battle and be done with it.

    Now this is nifty. I heard a lot of talk on IRC about stuff like Perish Song Trappers, Wrap, and the like - while these would be a bit too limiting for my tastes, there is no doubt that this would make for a goodish Project with plenty of interesting discussion and dare I say not an undue number of avenues that could be explored. The possibilities are quite endless - my only moderate gripe is that, very possibly, whatever we decide to do will be very limiting, as we are going to have to restrict it to very definite roles, such as "Normal-type offence" or "Bulky Trapper" that aren't particularly deep concepts in and of themselves. On the other hand, the sheer number of ancient niches that exist - Parafusion, bulky set-up (Curselax and CroCune spring to mind), Toxic-stallers, pure support, even Trick Room to an extent - not to mention the revival of some old niches already in BW (Reuniclus with bulky set-up alongside Psychic-type offence). I really like this, but at the same time I'm wary of how many directions it could go in.

    M'yes. The thing is, though, that banning is and always will be very subjective - there is no easy definition. There are plenty of borderline cases - see Garchomp and Excadrill, for example - but I think there are very few absolute clear-cut cases (the only ones I can really think of are RBY Mewtwo and DPP LC Scyther). The idea of "banning because broken" is not necessary synonymous with "banning because we want a balanced metagame". I'm not fond of this concept, not because there's no challenge involved (because there certainly is), but because there's no definite end goal in sight. And that's a problem when everyone has differing ideas about what is too powerful and what isn't. For example, I believe that Garchomp was banned in DPP purely because it was very good, rather than because it was broken. But not everyone would agree with that. "Overcentralising" I believe was phased out a while ago - it was used as justification for Garchomp's ban, and BW is rather alarmingly centralised around only a few playstyles. That doesn't make it bad, of course.

    All in all, I think that the concept as it stands has the distinct possibility to cause far too much drama for far too little reward. If you were to change it to emphasise the defensive aspect - it is certainly not known whether it is possible for a Pokemon to be defensively overpowering, as you said - then I would be far more willing to consider it.

    Fidgit MkII, if I'm not mistaken. We haven't tried our hand at a primarily support-based or defensive Pokemon for a while now, so I'm rather interested in this concept. The offensive bias you mentioned is an interesting touch, although that would make it rather similar to most of our recent Pokemon - on the plus side, though, a truly flexible supporter would be a goodish challenge, so that's something.

    Rather bare-bones concept, but even so, it's a very imaginative idea, especially for the purpose in investigating the psychological aspect of Pokemon, which I have always been rather interested in. The downside is, though, that the concept isn't really challenging enough for my taste - the end product is almost defined by the concept itself ("different formes with different stats that look alike") so as far as achieving the concept goes, there's not much to do. I do very much like the idea, though.

    Interestingly, the first thing I thought when I saw your concept was "150 base HP Final Gambit". I can see this working as the sort of Pokemon that has a dozen effective but gimmicky sets, which would work sometimes but not always. Lures are another good example you gave - I do indeed like this idea, as there are indeed very many ways you could go with this and the build would be pretty challenging, especially as you would have to ensure that there would be no clear-cut standard sets all the way through. I fear, though, that having to keep our eyes on potential sets for the entirety of the Project would give way to poll-jumping, and that building a Pokemon around sets rather than sets around a Pokemon would rather jeopardise the process. In any case, though, I do like it.

    Quickstall, eh? Can't say I've ever used it myself, but it sounds like an intriguing prospect. The difficulty I have with these "playstyle in one Pokemon" concepts is that they very rarely seem to, well, account for the other team members. I'm not sure what one Pokemon can do to make this playstyle viable and in any case I'm not sure how many people in the CAP community would be acquainted with the playstyle in any case. On the other hand, I suppose that Whimsicott and Jumpluff still exist, and there's no shortage of bulky fast stuff here and there. I'd like to see some of your own ideas for how this could work in the "Explanation" section before I pass any sort of judgement.

    Direct and to the point, I see. The difficulty with your idea is that, well, the sweepers on rain teams (that is to say, the Water-types) will typically have great difficulty with other rain teams, meaning that anything that can single-handedly dismantle an opposing rain team is pretty, well, greatly sought-after, assuming of course that there are no custom abilities or moves involved. Mollux was a little too close to this concept for me, unfortunately. It's an interesting idea, though.

    Here's a concept that I think a lot of people have been going after. It's certainly a challenge to build and I think it's safe to say that it would be a pretty huge discussion topic, especially as this Pokemon would be designed to single-handedly turn the BW2 metagame on its head, effectively. The idea itself is good, and pertinent to today's metagame, certainly.

    Another variant on the unpredictability and mindgames theme. I do have a soft spot for these, I must admit; I also think this is one of the less complex and therefore more easily approached concepts that I have seen. I'm not sure I'm quite as fond of this as I am of other concepts of a similar ilk, since there are very few ways you can take this concept - you could have two separate abilities, perhaps an imaginative set of egg move illegalities, but what apart from that? I feel like the scope of this concept is just a bit too narrow, unfortunately.

    I liked this last CAP and I still like it a lot. Of course, it's not the same as last time (concealed information over surprise), but it's still a worthwhile subject. Suffice to say that the element of surprise is something that we have never really explored terribly in CAP (as opposed to "unpredictability"), there are plenty of ways to achieve it, and that there is plenty of discussion to be had and obstacles to overcome. I would emphasise the idea of surprise over unpredictability, perhaps, but other than that I really like this concept.

    I very much doubt that one, probably very specialised Pokemon would be sufficient to make an Uber no longer broken (after all, Gastrodon is a pretty good Kyogre check). This is certainly an interesting idea, but I'm not exactly sure how it would work in practice. I'll grant that I would like to try it out, though.

    /Voodoom

    In all seriousness, a Pokemon that makes more than one core is certainly an interesting prospect, but I do wonder how different it would really be to what we have already done. Cores are all very well, but they are either very hard or very easy to deliberately design a Pokemon for, depending on the approach taken. I'm not fond of this concept, sorry.

    Aha, high-risk-high-reward. This is a very deep concept, I think - and for that reason, I like it rather more than I have similar concepts in the past, particularly because of the emphasis on the user rather than on the Pokemon. There are plenty of avenues to explore, too - whether we decide to go for a Stealth Rock weak monster like Volcarona or a glass cannon like Alakazam. All in all, there's not much I don't like about this.

    Well, given the addition of new offensive threats to the metagame, I'd say that of all the different "playstyle" concepts, this is the most realistic. I'm still not sure about this concept, largely because there isn't really a distinct end goal in sight beyond "something that works in hyper offence", and hence a large part of the challenge of the process is removed entirely.

    I've said I wasn't fond of "Break the Mould" style concepts, though this one would promise some interesting discussion. I am still not keen on it purely because it focuses to too great an extent on the ability and moves, and there is no real end goal based on the concept itself.

    As the lead metagame goes, any sort of lead has to be able to give its user a very definite advantage over the opponent. This means that, well, an offensive lead is almost entirely ruled out given the capacity of the opponent to choose their lead, which only leaves hazard leads, which Deoxys-D already does pretty well. I can't see this being a particularly interesting process, sorry - there are far too few avenues we could potentially go down.

    Mmm. EVO wasn't exactly a rousing success and there are many reasons why we have never tried to "update" the CAPs - although, your idea is rather intriguing, I have to say. I'm not sure what unique niches we could get from this that we couldn't get from elsewhere, and I'm not sure where the challenge comes from without a definite end-goal, once we have picked whatever Pokemon we want to be recreating.

    This concept confuses me. On the one hand, we have "A Pokemon who has all the right tools to thrive with a lackluster or hindering ability", the classic Skill Swap Slaking affair. On the other hand, you then go on to say that "This concept focuses on taking an underappreciated or unwanted ability to its fullest potential", which is much closer to Cyclohm. I'm not sure I see the potential of either of these at present, so I'd like to ask you to clarify exactly what your concept is proposing.

    I very much doubt that the concept is that feasible, as even Wobbuffet, a Pokemon with only 8 moves to choose from, can run different sets (yeah I know Ditto exists but). In addition, there isn't really a definable end goal in place, though you could easily make the argument that there is, so I'll be willing to overlook that. That's the only beef I have with it, though - aside from that, the concept is very solid indeed and could merit some interesting discussion.

    Uhh I'm pretty sure this concept is illegal as it sort of necessitates a custom move, ability, etc. - unless of course I am misunderstanding this, in which case feel free to correct me.

    Sun bunching in on Hail's monopoly, I see. I like how many ways this could go, in that this Pokemon could purely be a counter to rain or sand teams, or be a huge player on sun or hail teams, or even all of these at the same time. Either way, there are a lot of ways to go about this, and I like it more than most of the other weather concepts.

    As AG said, the concept is really limiting - there are so few ways to take advantage of gender that there really isn't much point in trying to make a Pokemon that will base its existence on gender, without creating a custom ability or otherwise.

    To address your question, yes, we have created custom moves in the past (never items) but we will ONLY ever do it as a last resort, or when there are no other options (or if enough people vote for it, as we are a democratic institution).

    TO address your concept, it seems rather similar to that of Colossoil, but you've been a bit too specific with it. There's no possible way to make it immune to all indirect damage without Magic Guard, and no way to make it immune to all stat drops without Clear Body/White Smoke, and no way to make it immune to all status conditions without... well, you get the idea. Essentially your concept is too prescriptive in its current form.

    -----------------------

    Those are my current thoughts on all posted concepts. I have tried to be as fair and objective as possible in evaluating them for potential, and you may well disagree with me - in fact I invite you to address any criticisms I may have made and convince me that my fears are unfounded and your concept is the best thing since sliced bread. I am, as they say, all ears, and my slate is not nearly set in stone yet.

    Speaking of the slate, I'd like to get a good number of different options on the table for the first poll. In any case, of the thirty or so concepts currently submitted, I have whittled them down to 10 for the my first shortlist. Feel free to comment on the list or explain why you should be on it, but kindly do not disparage the submissions of others.

    Code:
    Three Ways to Play
    Unpredictable Wall
    Ugly Duckling
    Time Capsule
    Dare To Be Different
    The Weather Killer
    Deceiver
    Living On the Edge
    One Trick Pony
    Weather Equaliser
    ----------------

    Well, that took a lot more time than I would have expected, so I'm going to go rest my arms for a bit. Cheerio.
  16. Toby jug

    Toby jug

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Messages:
    3
    Long time lurker here, enjoyed Mollux so looking forward to wherever this leads us.
    Concept: "stat down specialist"
    Description: A pokemon who succeeds not through high powered moves, but through a range of low/mediocre power moves with stat down effects.

    Justification: Stat down effects have never really had a chance to shine. Moves like metal sound/screech have shoddy accuracy, no damage and simply force a switch and moves like Bulldoze/icy wind and rock tomb are generally ignored for moves with a higher BP than 60. However, these moves do have their merits and damaging while lowering a stat does have a niche. This concept looks at making a pokemon that can abuse these moves fully, being able to lower the defenses of slower pokemon and slow down and outspeed faster 'mons, consequently forcing a lot of switches. A -1 in speed/defense or a -2 in special defence can often mean checks aren't checks anymore, if only temporarily.


    Questions To Be Answered:
    • Can a pokemon excel with mostly low/mediocre powered moves without technician or monstrous attacking stats?
    • Most reliable added effect moves lower speed. As a physical/mixed threat will the only moves that lower defense fairly reliably (Shell blade/crush claw) prove reliable enough for CAP4 to excel or work as a concept?
    • Will the previous two issues necessitate the use of powerful abilities such as serene grace/technician for this CAP to be viable?
    • Will the necessity of using a turn to lower stats make CAP too weak to revenge killing and make it hard to regain momentum?
    • Will CAP be able to force the switches it needs to fully take advantage of its abilities?
    Explanation: Whenever a stat down effect is seen in standard play it is generally only from an unlucky switch into crunch or shadow ball with the very occasional icy wind Gengar, Keldeo or Tentacruel. The idea behind this pokemon is to utilize multiple moves with stat down effects, and make switching in to this pokemon difficult, but not as potentially game breaking as an unlucky scald burn.
    After swapping into an icy wind or rock tomb a pokemon may no longer be a check but they won't be crippled if they swap out, but who's to say that CAP won't go for another speed down or defense down and force another switch?
    I think if done right this concept could bring new mind games and prediction into the metagame.
  17. zyrefredric

    zyrefredric

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    524
    Name: RESTRICTOR

    General Description: A pokemon that directly or indirectly limits the opponent's move options, through a combination of abilities, typings, items, etc.

    Justification: The outcome of a Pokemon match depends on the skills (sometimes luck) of the trainers. Usually the one that could better predict the opponent's moves is the victor. A single mispredict can cost anybody a match. Great skills in prediction comes with experience. However, one way of increasing your chances of predicting correctly would be by limiting the options the opponent could do. If you can control the situation in such a way that he is restricted to a single option, what's there to predict? That's what this concept is all about.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    • How much of the metagame is susceptible to move restriction?
    • To what degree can a certain Pokemon affect the options of an opponent?
    • Would the opponent choose the less ideal option, knowing that the option he has been restricted to is what you chose?
    • How do other Pokemon adjust their movesets and strategies with the Restrictor Pokemon around?

    Explanation:
    To better understand what I'm trying to say, take a look at this Move Restriction Guide onsite. The article "takes a close look at the workings of moves, items, and abilities that restrict the move options available to Pokémon". There's a multitude of ways that this can be accomplished, so we don't even have to be restricted by this article. It is possible for the Concept to go for an offensive route, using its threat as a restricting factor as well. However, a more defensive approach may be better suited for it. For example, when pulled off right, a Pokemon with enough defenses to take a hit with the moveset of Spider Web / Substitute / Disable / Encore with Prankster completely restricts the opponent's option to Struggle!
  18. Eagle4

    Eagle4

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    1,609
    Concept: Gravity Guy
    Description: A Pokemon which can introduce Gravity into the OU, by means of manipulating the move in an effective manner.

    Justification: Gravity is almost never used in the current metagame, unless serving in a niche or gimmick role. This concept aims to introduce Gravity into common ground, so more professional players can use the move with less difficulty.

    Questions To Be Answered:

    • Is Gravity a good enough move to be introduced to the OU, even with this Pokemon?
    • Is this Pokemon viable in OU when not included in a Gravity Team?
    • Can this Pokemon introduce other less-common Pokemon into OU?
    • Are brilliant stats, new moves or amazing abilities needed for this Pokemon to serve its role?
    • Which battle strategies will be fundamental with the use of this Pokemon?
    • Which OU-based Pokemon will sink to a lesser stage of use once this Pokemon is introduced?
    Explanation: I think this concept shows a real challenge when creating this Pokemon, yet the options or roads this Pokemon could take is endless. The typing can be almost anything, and can be used to provide a counter for Pokemon which can stall Gravity Teams, yet can also serve as a guidance towards Gravity-based Pokemon, such as Clefable, Dusknoir and Metagross. Art designs are, one again, limitless. One road I don't want this Pokemon to take is the weather/wonder guard path, as they often limit creation, or are too commonly talked about in CAP.
  19. Orivexes

    Orivexes

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2012
    Messages:
    42
    I'd like to submit a concept I thought of this morning. I don't really like my explanation for it, so if anyone could suggest any ways to get my concept explained better, I'd really appreciate it!

    Concept:
    The "Hail-Mary Playbook"

    Description:
    An above-average pokemon that does its best work as your last pokemon that works to turn the tide in your favor.

    Justification:
    If leads used to play such an important part of the metagame, why can't a last-ditch effort Pokemon make a solid impact? This new niche pokemon would excel at taking down huge, specific chunks of teams with proper prediction--otherwise, all hope would still be lost. The Hail-Mary Playbook would require opponents to plan despite a growing fear that something is lurking late in the match, and that a few lucky breaks may not help them survive.

    Questions to be Answered:

    • Would it be worthwhile to save a slot on your team for a "failsafe" pokemon? Is this niche worthwhile?
    • What qualifies an end-game pokemon? Will it have any other uses?
    • Can a single, well-planned pokemon turn the tide of a battle against multiple opponents? How much skill is needed to do so?
    Explanation:
    I guess this whole idea came about due to a few things I've experienced in games--namely, Moxie abusers, scarfers, and CB Terrakion. Many games reach the point where one player sees an opening for a sweeper and rushes in for the kill, and, well, it's scary! Apart from a few stray priority moves, it's hard to stop a straight-up sweep, especially if it's from a boosted sweeper.

    It's more common in lower tiers, but more defensive teams can corner people as well. They'll take out your one counter to their subseeder or wall or tank, and then you're stuck banging your head against recovers, or getting mauled by flinch-hax by some upstart young 'rachi!

    With that in mind, I think a pokemon niche could be created that, if properly played, would allow a flailing expert to recover and wreck up a team. Sturdy is the first ability that comes to mind, and has a variety of fun options--can you imagine the existence of a good Sturdy+Shell Smash user? Counter/Mirror Coat + Sturdy would be a fun combo for taking down one nasty sweeper (for a short-term solution), and Icicle spear would be a fun tool to whip out against those nasty dragon-dancers. Jirachi was mentioned above--Flinch protection could be an option as an ability as well, and a ground-typing would be great to prevent t-waves from ruining your comeback.

    Making a defensive "Hail Mary Playbook" would be much more difficult--today's pokes are more aggressive than ever. Still, something like Will-o-Wisp and defense boosting would make for an interesting set, and a high speed stat would ensure that you get to set up for it.

    Of course, a late game 'mon would have no need for things like Stealth Rocks, Rapid spin, or any of that stuff--you'd need to balance out your team if you want that stuff out of your way. Hazards might wreck him too--especially if Sturdy is involved, as brought up like mentioned above.

    I also like the idea of high-risk, high-reward with this 'mon. Imagine something very Yanmega-esque, but with supportable typing--tinted lens and powerful attacks that get decent coverage, but maybe a tad frail.

    Welp, there are my ideas. Any thoughts?
  20. DarkSlay

    DarkSlay This Wouldn't Have Happened In Romney's Smogon
    is a CAP Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    1,414
    Well, my original "Lead" concept seems to have been already submitted, but no worries. I was talking with some of the users in IRC and came up with the conclusion that an old friend of ours should make a return for Generation V CAP. I believe that this concept, although explored in a different time, has a lot of merit, and with the process we now have, can be achieved successfully rather than inadequately. Credit for the base of this concept goes to reachzero, as he submitted this for CAP10 in Generation IV. I have merely adjusted the concept to fit Generation V topics.

  21. Pokethan

    Pokethan

    Joined:
    May 4, 2009
    Messages:
    529
    Name: "Its Super Effective..." Huh?

    General Description: A Pokemon that has nearly unmatched type coverage in terms of moves but also has only the most poorly distributed moves and moves that aren't overpowered and are given to only a few pokemon.

    Justification: This pokemon would give us the ability to test moves that are good but just aren't given to a lot of pokemon, (Aeroblast, Searing Shot, Attack Order, Night Daze, etc.) and see if they would be usable competitively if they weren't stuck on only their current users and would allow to see just how important move distribution is in the current metagame.

    Questions to be Answered:

    • Would these moves be useful if they were distributed more?
    • How good are these moves at their core?
    • Are any of these moves relatively overpowered just by themselves?
    • Can a pokemon be great based upon its moveset alone?

    Explanation:
    This is an idea I submitted for the last CAP but I wasn't able to define it as well as I can now and I hope even here I defined it well enough that you guys will be able to get what I am aiming for with this.

    I have wanted to see for a while what all these under-appreciated and niche moves could do on a pokemon that could use them properly such as the Shift Gear move on something other than KlingKlang.

    The move itself raises Atk +1 and Spd +2 an agility with an attack boost and of course the only thing that gets it is a pokemon that has a movepool of like 12 bad moves.

    There are plenty of other examples I could give for almost every type which is why this pokemon will have a weirdly rounded moveset that has great coverage but its awkward as it doesn't have the tradition BoltBeam or Flamethrower and EQ.

    Any comments?
  22. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
    is a member of the Site Staffis an Artistis a Programmeris a CAP Contributoris an Administratoris a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    CAP Leader

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    3,058
    I think more people should focus on commenting on concepts and making their case to the TL for their favorites to make the slate. Because right now, it seems almost everyone is piling on new concepts (most of them are not very good), instead of discussing what is already out there.

    The concept I like most so far is already on BMB's short list, so I'll make a case that I hope it stays there --

    Capefeather's Living On The Edge
    (which I would have called "High Risk, High Reward", but that's just me)

    I read the concept and loved it from the start. And just in case you think I was biased to support a mod's submission, I actually did not notice that it was Capefeather's submission until I started typing this reply. I'm not surprised though, because CAP mods have lots of experience with the project and they know the difference between a "good pokemon" and a "good concept". And there *IS* a difference.

    A good pokemon benefits the player or the metagame, while a good concept benefits the CAP project and CAP process. Keep that in mind for some of you newer participants out there. We are looking for a concept that will serve as the basis for an interesting project over the next two months or so. That means the concept needs to be focused enough to keep us from wandering all over the map and arguing over a bazillion viable choices on every step. Concepts like that are just too broad. On the other hand, the concept can't be so tightly focused that there is little room to actually debate about anything. With a narrow concept, the pokemon is pretty much pre-built as soon as the concept is chosen, and that sucks. So we need a concept in that middle ground between narrow and broad. And I think Capefeather has made a good one.

    What I like about Living On The Edge is that it is explicitly designed to have something really powerful or effective (the high reward part) offset by something that makes it bad or ineffective (the high risk part). Because CAP projects tend to amplify every concept to its most powerful level (see just about every CAP ever made in the past), I like the idea of having a concept-level weakness virtually guaranteed from the start. I have no idea what we'll do to make this powerful, and I have no idea what we'll do to cripple it -- and *that's* what makes this concept appealing to me.

    Living On The Edge is a bit broad, in that it could go a million different directions at the start. But I think if BMB does a good job during the Concept Evaluation stage, we can get out of the gate in a reasonably focused fashion and not wander too much along the way.

    I love high-risk gambits in Pokemon, and even pure gimmick Pokemon are fun to play, just to see if you can pull it off. I love the idea of making a pokemon that is somewhat of a gambit play from the start. My mind is racing thinking of different ways to make it work, and I'm sure many of you creative thinkers are doing the same.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating a gimmick luck-mon, and if you read Capefeather's concept, he isn't advocating that either. The concept is emphasizing risk management, and is encouraging us to examine the concept of risk in Pokemon. I think we could learn a lot, and it's an area of the metagame that is often mentioned but rarely understood. That is perfect fodder for a CAP project.

    This could be fun.
  23. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
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    2,077
    Name: Higher Ground

    General Description: A Pokemon which prevents or punishes the creation of field effects which disadvantage its user, while facilitating or preserving beneficial field effects.

    Justification: Gen V's OU metagame heavily revolves around field modifications, primarily entry hazards and weather. By creating a Pokemon that specializes in control over the field at any given time, we can learn about what kind of threats are more / less viable if you / the opponent could "guarantee" that the field be clear of hazards. Similarly, we can learn about what kind of pokemon would be more / less viable if they had a teammate that could ensure that their weather of choice would always be present, or if they had an opponent that ensured it wouldn't be. Essentially, field effects affect the tiering and usage status of enough Pokemon that a Pokemon which could play with the entire concept in any direction could be a very valuable tool for learning.

    Questions To Be Answered:

    • How will the metagame be shaped by the potentially greater control over the field this Pokemon would afford to players?
    • Will previously forgotten threats find a place in OU if their environment could be free of hazards or detrimental weather?
    • If teams are unable to use field effects to gain an advantage, what other tactics will they resort to? Will the metagame begin revolving around synergy-driven balance?
    • Would it be possible to for one Pokemon to simultaneously fill so many potential roles while not causing excessive centralization in the metagame?
    Explanation: A few notes:

    I consider Trick Room, Gravity, Tailwind, Reflect, Light Screen, and (maybe) Intimidate to also be "field effects".

    This is different from an "anti-hazards" concept because that's not its entire job - it should also be able to preserve your own hazards through a variety of means.

    And, this is different from weather support pokemon / anti-weather pokemon because, if we build it right, it should be able to preserve, or fight against, any form of weather. Additionally, it should be able to preserve Clear Skies for your team if you need it to.

    There could be a variety of ways we could approach this Pokemon. Rapid Spin, Taunt, Magic Bounce, Air Lock, Trace, and Magic Guard are just a few of the obvious ways in which we could begin to fulfill this concept, but there are cleverer ways that I encourage the community to explore (for example, consider a tankish physical ghost type which severely threatens every weather starter and has regenerator as an ability).

    The capacity to be either for or against contentious pillars of the metagame, like hazards and weather, is what will make this Pokemon so intriguing...while also being very challenging to create. But I am confident that we can do it!
  24. Pokethan

    Pokethan

    Joined:
    May 4, 2009
    Messages:
    529
    I don't mean to ruin the flow of the thread so far but when I saw this concept the idea that immediately popped into to my head as part of the concept was "Scrappy Rapid Spin."

    Just wanted to give some input because while weather control is always a thing people have to deal with in OU right now having an unblockable rapid spinner would just destroy hazards and really make an idea like this function really well.
  25. phoopes

    phoopes The Boss
    is a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,044
    Ah, got my concept shortlisted last time 'round, so I thought with appropriate edits for B/W2 it would get a little more consideration. However, I can definitely see where you're coming from. I do realize that the concept would be either "create supah powerful offensive Pokemon" or "create fast bulky dual screener," though I do think the benefits of having another viable playstyle to pick from would do wonders for not only the OU, but the CAP metagame as well.

    Anyway, as for the shortlisted concepts, I'd have to say that I am in favor of the Three Ways to Play concept. A Pokemon that has three vastly different sets it could run based off its three abilities seems like it would create both a challenge and a fun experience for everyone working on it. Not only that, but it would be fun to play with as well, keeping your opponent guessing more than they normally would once they see it on team preview.
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