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CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 10 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by bugmaniacbob, Oct 27, 2012.

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  1. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    And now, the other half of the coin. Please be certain to memorise the lists made in the previous thread so that we know what we're working with when we construct these lists.

    -------

    An "Attacking Move" is a move that deals damage to an opponent as its main purpose. All other moves are considered "Non-Attacking Moves." As a general rule, any move that can be used under Taunt is considered to be an Attacking Move. However, there are a few exceptional moves that deal a small amount of damage, but their primary battle purpose is based on a secondary move effect, and are therefore considered Non-Attacking moves. For example, Rapid Spin and Knock Off are considered to be Non-Attacking Moves, even though they can be used under Taunt. U-turn can be used as an attacking move on Pokemon such as Scizor, which has a high Attack stat and gets STAB on the move; however, on Pokemon such as Fidgit, it is used more as a scouting or support move. The Topic Leader has sole discretion for interpreting which moves are considered Attacking or Non-Attacking Moves for a given Pokemon.

    All moves will be categorized as Competitive, Non-Competitive, or Required.

    • Competitive moves are moves that are viable for use in battle on a given Pokemon. This categorization is applicable depending on the Pokemon. Sometimes a move will be competitive on one Pokemon and non-competitive for another.
    • Required moves are moves that must be included in the final movepool, and are generally not up for discussion. A list of common Required moves can be found on the Movepool Submissions page.

    The Topic Leader will post a list of moves in the OP of the thread. This list will serve as a single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion. The first list of moves should be compiled by the Topic Leader prior to opening the thread, and will serve as the initial list of moves to begin discussion.

    The list should contain all moves that are considered Competitive for the Pokemon being created. The Topic Leader has final say for determining whether a move is Competitive, Non-Competitive, or Required. The TL should use these lists for moves that are generally considered Competitive moves.

    The list of moves will be separated into three sections indicating the "status" of the move in the current discussion -- Allowed, Disallowed, Controversial, or Pending.
    • Allowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be allowed in the Pokemon's final movepool
    • Disallowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to not be allowed in the Pokemon's final movepool
    • Controversial - Moves that did not reach general community consensus, and will require a specific vote.
    • Pending - Moves that have not received enough support or opposition to determine whether they are Allowed, Disallowed, or Controversial

    The community should make posts arguing for moves to be Allowed or Disallowed. The Topic Leader should re-categorize moves as the discussion progresses.

    At the conclusion of the Movepool Discussion, the Topic Leader will make a final update to the OP move list and the thread will be locked.
    Any Controversial Moves will proceed to be voted on in a Move Poll. Any Controversial moves that receive a sufficient majority of votes, will be added to the Allowed moves list.

    Move Discussion Posting Rules

    • The list of moves in this post will serve as the single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion.
    • Post arguments for moves to be Allowed or Disallowed from the Pokemon's final movepool. All posts should be presented with reasoning.
    • Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited. Do not copy the TL's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one. Posts that contain lists of moves will be deleted, even if the post contains additional reasoning and content.
    • The Topic Leader will update the list continuously throughout the discussion, using recent posts to determine changes to the move list. Moves may have a fluctuating status as the community debates for or against the move in response to changes in the OP.
    • Posts should be based on the current state of the list in the OP. It is the responsibility of each member to check the OP before making any post in the thread. Posts that demonstrate lack of familiarity with the current OP will be deleted.
    • The Topic Leader is the sole arbiter for determining "general community consensus". The TL may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if they feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as Controversial.
    • All moves that are considered Competitive for this Pokemon are included in the list in the OP. Non-Competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are incorrectly categorized and should be considered Competitive (see next rule).
    • If you disagree with the TL's categorization of a move as Competitive or Non-Competitive, you can post arguments in this thread, but reasoning must be supplied.

    EIA EIA ALALA SEPHIMOTH

    ------

    Below is CAP 4 so far:

    Name: Aurumoth

    [​IMG]

    Concept (open)

    Typing: Bug / Psychic
    Abilities: Weak Armour / Illusion / No Guard
    Base Stats: 110 HP / 120 Atk / 99 Def / 117 SpA / 60 SpD / 94 Spe
  2. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    And now, the second bit.

    Now then, as for my vision here… Aurumoth should, as per what was decided in Concept Assessment, be capable of functioning as a risky supporter or a risky sweeper. In this case, what we have is more straightforward. Aurumoth is already a pretty risky Pokemon to lug around by virtue of its typing, so most supporting strategies could be considered risky; that said, I'd like to limit said strategies to those that have a genuinely high chance of failing, or those that interact in different manners with different abilities. For example, take Will-O-Wisp. With Weak Armour, you can patch up any Defence drops; with Illusion, you can drop a status ailment on an unsuspecting Terrakion; with No Guard, you can use it in a standard manner, without any fear of missing.

    The other fundamental aspect of this stage refers to set-up moves. As mentioned in the previous threads, Aurumoth should be able to set up and sweep – and more than that, it should either be difficult to set up but easy to sweep with, or difficult to sweep with but easy to set up. Well, that's the ideal, anyway. In reality we have only a small pool of set-up moves to choose from, so we will simply have to choose wisely.

    So. Here's how we start off.

    Required
    - I'm going to require all those moves that every Pokemon gets, to start off with. Might add more later.
    - Protect, Rain Dance, Rest, Substitute, Toxic.
    - Possibly might consider removing Protect or Substitute as "totally safe" moves, but unlikely because neither is a totally safe option
    - Rest I might remove if we really don't want healing moves but really there is nothing wrong with this at all

    Allowed
    - Here we have strategies that I would like to see
    - Wish is, for me, a must on this CAP. It's a risky strategy, especially on a Pokemon with such a passive damage weakness, and if you try to run Wish + Protect you are severely limiting your attacking options
    - DS + Memento/Healing Wish – everybody likes the suicide set-up (particularly with Illusion)
    - Counter/Mirror Coat – put that HP stat to use
    - …Set-up moves. Where to begin? I've gone with the ones I personally want to see the most on CAP4 – Tail Glow works well with Stored Power (if you can somehow get 2 boosts) and Swords Dance for physical sets. Nasty Plot is there in case you for some reason want a less powerful boosting attack. Agility to emulate RP Genesect, Calm Mind to emulate CM Suicune I guess (and another reason to run Stored Power).

    Currently being discussed
    - The most important moves for this CAP bar what's already allowed are on the table. Please do not mention or try to start a discussion about any others at this time.
    - Will-O-Wisp, Glare, and Thunder Wave are our essential status moves. Bar very good arguments to the contrary I intend to allow Glare and Will-O-Wisp, though I am not currently certain of the value of Thunder Wave.
    - And… Quiver Dance/Dragon Dance. Oh my. I know how many people will be horrified by the very mention of these as they relate to Weak Armour, as well as how many people believe that these moves simply have to be on Aurumoth in order for it to be able to function as a sweeper. We'll see how that goes. For the moment, let's discuss this civilly and try to find all the positives and negatives that including these moves would bring. Please try to avoid insulting opposing sides too. I've decided that I'm not going to come down on either side until I've seen the arguments from both.

    Disallowed
    - Well… inaccurate moves should hopefully be obvious.
    - Removed all the instant-recovery moves to emphasise the "making every switch count" aspect.
    - Also Shell Smash (obligatory SHELL SMASH + STORED POWER)
    - Entry hazards are a bit of a no-go zone. Besides, I think we've explored that avenue quite thoroughly, and there's not much risk to be found there
    - Cleric moves are grouped under healing moves in terms of "If you switch into a Toxic then it was your own fault", but if you want to give arguments to the contrary, feel free, as I'm sort of unsure on this particular subset of moves.

    Required

    Protect
    Rain Dance
    Rest
    Toxic

    Allowed

    Reflect
    Light Screen
    Wish
    Healing Wish
    Memento
    Counter
    Mirror Coat
    Tail Glow
    Nasty Plot
    Swords Dance
    Agility
    Calm Mind
    Will-O-Wisp
    Glare
    Thunder Wave
    Stun Spore
    Cotton Guard
    Cosmic Power
    Stockpile
    Substitute
    Quiver Dance
    Dragon Dance
    Sleep Talk
    Trick / Switcheroo
    Taunt
    Roar / Whirlwind
    Destiny Bond
    Magic Coat
    Iron Defence / Barrier / Acid Armour
    Amnesia
    Flame Charge

    Currently Up For Discussion

    ...

    Pending (that means don't discuss these yet)

    GAME OVER

    Disallowed

    Anything with < 70% accuracy
    All moves that cause sleep (eg. Hypnosis, Spore)
    All reliable-recovery moves (eg. Milk Drink, Recover)
    All weather recovery moves (eg. Moonlight, Synthesis)
    Ingrain / Aqua Ring
    Leech Seed
    Shell Smash
    Spikes
    Toxic Spikes
    Stealth Rock
    Aromatherapy / Heal Bell
    Shift Gear
    Baton Pass
    Belly Drum
    Circle Throw
    Dragon Tail
    Gravity
    Encore
    Block / Mean Look / Spider Web
    Perish Song
    Endeavour
    Rapid Spin
    Knock Off
    Haze
    Trick Room
    Tailwind
    Confuse Ray
    Snatch

    -----

    BMB's obligatory Topic Leader footnote gimmick - My Top 15 Arthropods

    #4 The Wind Scorpion

    [​IMG]

  3. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Photorealistic Seagull (PSG)
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    Glare? Thunder Wave? Moar like Stun Spore. If we're going to go for paralysis, any of these moves would be fine.

    I support Will-O-Wisp as well, it does a great deal to blunt the defensive threats to CAP4, especially Skarmory, which likes its HP, its Sturdy, and the ability to threaten with Brave Bird, all of which go out the window with Will-O-Wisp.

    One move that isn't on our lists is Psycho Shift. I of course brought it up long ago in the context of Flare Boost, but I still like it. The last move I think would be noteworthy, especially for how it interacts with Weak Armor, is Cotton Guard, which makes Aurumoth very physically bulky while also giving it a "stockpile" of Defense boosts to utilize.
  4. nyttyn

    nyttyn Neko Miko Reimu, ai shiteru
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    Ho boy. This will be fun.

    I would like to suggest a move that, up until now, has been a signature move for the klink family: Shift Gear.

    Now, you may be asking, Nyt WTF are you suggesting? +2 Speed +1 Attack is way too good! But let's compare it to Quiver Dance, which gives +1 SpAtk / +1 SpDef and +1 Speed: allowing Aurumoth to eat a special attack it otherwise might not be able to eat. The physically attacking side of Aurumoth might need something to make up for this, it might not; the point is, Shift Gear is worth considering if we're considering Quiver Dance and Dragon Dance.
  5. srk1214

    srk1214 The Wuthering Heights of Billionaire Gay Dinosaur Fiction
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    Will-O-Wisp
    Glare
    Thunder Wave
    Quiver Dance
    Dragon Dance

    I am currently of the opinion that Dragon Dance and Quiver Dance should be off limits. Boosting speed and an attacking stat together seems to be the less risky option. Forcing Aurumoth to choose between Agility and Tail Glow/Swords Dance seems much more ideal.

    Personally, I oppose the inclusion of Will-o-Wisp, as it could take away Scizor's ability to Pursuit Trap, or even KO with U-Turn. And remember that No Guard Aurumoth won't be at -1 defense, so it takes only about half from Bullet Punch. Under no circumstances should Aurumoth be able to cripple Scizor with Will-o-Wisp. It should have to run the weakening Overheat or the weak HP Fire, which is survived easily in Rain.

    The paralyzing moves are a little more controversial to me. I don't think Aurumoth should be rewarded on mispredictions and since status is NEVER bad, I'm generally opposed to both. But at the same time 4MSS is a thing, and I don't think either should be too threatening.

    I guess the main question I want to ask about the already decided stuff. Should we consider disallowing Tail Glow, while still allowing Nasty Plot, so that Special/Physical split is more even? Just a thought.
  6. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    Psycho Shift isn't a VGM Deck

    ...but I did add Stun Spore, Cotton Guard, and Shift Gear to the currently discussed moves since they're all kind of in the same ballpark
  7. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    Yeah...so... no Quiver Dance. No Dragon Dance. No, no no. (And no Shift Gear either). There are so many problems with these moves that I hardly know where to start. However, since I think Quiver Dance is the worst of the bunch, I will begin with that.

    So what exactly does Quiver Dance do? Boosts Special Attack power. But we already get that but better with NP or Tail Glow. Honestly, the power boost means nothing to me. Its the other two parts that are bad.

    Lets start with the Special Defense boost. The key idea behind this concept is that Aurumoth will be a pokemon that has sever risk that comes with it, but has enough of a reward to merit using anyways. Honestly though, I am not convinced that it is that risky at all right now. Maybe it is, but not enough so that we can just pile on good stuff with nothing bad coming of it. Not only does QD provide a great offensive boost (which I will talk about in a bit), but it eliminates one of the only real flaws that Aurumoth actually has in Special frailty. The fact is, Aurumoth already has amazing physical bulk for an offensive Pokemon. I was one of the major supporters of special frailty along side that huge physical bulk because it gave a reward on one side with a risk on the other. Quiver Dance takes away the risk, leaving only reward. That is not what we want.

    As for the Speed, the addition of Quiver Dance, or Dragon Dance (or especially Shift Gear) completely destroys the ability triality that we have. Why would you ever use Weak Armor when you can get the exact same boost and much more without and downside? Sure, it uses up a moveslot, but we get such fantastic coverage in 3 moves that that amounts to just about nothing. Sure, I hear people say "But Weak Armor is better with Quiver Dance too." And yes, this is true. But when a simple +1 lets you outspeed everything non scarfed in the tier, the benefits of the other abilities far outshine the possibility of +2, especially when that is already likely with QD making you so bulky, and getting it via Weak Armor comes at the cost of your bulk. Simply put, if you have Quiver Dance, you do not use Weak Armor. Instead, you choose something else and get all the reward, and none of the risk.

    But another point I want to make on Quiver Dance with regards to the concept is that Quiver Dance has been done before. Volcorona is a risky Pokemon that abuses Quiver Dance. And guess what? It is stronger and faster, but also is frailer and has worse coverage. Put that together and what do you find? Aurumoth with QD is a less risky version of Volcarona. Less risk. Less reward. What will that teach us? Nothing at all.

    As for Dragon Dance, the paragraph about speed pretty much holds here too. So while I am not quite as against it, I still think it is a bad idea to allow. (And that goes double for Shift Gear).

    EDIT: I also want to say that I agree with srk's first paragraph. Forcing a choice between speed or power seems much more concept appropriate than the safe route that is getting a bit of both.


    Moving on to the other moves up for discussion, I would like to say yes to Glare and 100% yes to Will-o-Wisp, but no to Thunder Wave. Glare is neat in that it allows you to paralyze any Pokemon type. However, unlike Thunder Wave, it is not 100% accurate. As I have said before, I think the reward No Guard sets should have should be reliability, and I think there is no better way to do that than with Status moves like this. Giving it both status types is good, especially if you need No Guard for them to be reliable.

    EDIT2: Cotton Guard was added while I was posting, so I'll just briefly comment on it. Its not really a good move. So, sure, why not?
  8. Verminator

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    I hope I'm not choosing to butt in at the wrong time, seeing as I haven't posted so far (or on the forums at all for that matter) but I've lurked the creation process thus far, so I though I'd add my two cents.

    I personally think that Dragon Dance, Quiver Dance, and Shift Gear should all be off limits. Boosting your speed alone is one thing when it requires a turn of setup, but being able to boost attacking stats alongside that (and defensive ones in the case of QD) kind of disincentivises the use of Weak Armor and downplays the risk factor.

    Will-O-Wisp and Cotton Guard I'm also cautious of, as offering such a powerful instant buff to Aurumoth's physical bulk is kind of iffy if you ask me. I kind of think that these wouldn't see too much use on Aurumoth, as it seems kind of a lousy tradeoff for coverage attacks or offensive boosting moves, as Auromoth definitely seems to very much be an offensive-oriented poke, but I'm still inclined to say that they should be disallowed anyway.

    Thunder Wave and Glare I'm all for, however. The high-risk factor of playing Aurumoth is something that I see as also influencing the opponent, as an opposing player will have to play risky to counteract it, seeing as how it's quite an unpredictable poke thanks to its mixed attacking stats. Both T-Wave and Glare can extend that unpredictability and give a huge payoff to anyone brave enough to make a good prediction - catching someone's Terrakion, Heatran, Ninetails, etc on the switch with a paralysis move could potentially be a huge boon for not only Aurumoth but also its teammates, and it would reward a brave Aurumoth user with a big payoff. I think Glare is a criminally under-represented move in the current metagame and especially fits the theme of risk, as you trade T-Wave's perfect accuracy (No Guard, ho!) for the ability to paralyse ground types and Volt Absorb / Lightningrod users - for instance, I can see Gliscor being a common switchin on a predicted Megahorn / Bug Buzz - I think it would be incredibly satisfying to catch it with Glare and paralyse it before its Toxic Orb can activate. However, predict wrong and you might just be in for a world of hurt, so I wouldn't call this a "safe" option. Stun Spore is basically just an inferior Glare, so toss it in I suppose.
  9. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon Switching is a metagame trend
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    OH GOD NO NOT QUIVER DANCE

    600 bst, exceptional SE coverage, and Illusion. i dont see what could go wrong. seriously, please dont allow this move.
  10. Groudon ex

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    I'm worried that Aurumoth will be a failure if it isn't given some very exceptional options that allow it to be a dominating offensive force. It's Speed tier is quite frankly sub-par, especially considering how the most common scarfer, Genesect, can still outspeed and OHKO it after a Weak Armor boost. It also has massive problems switching in due to its vulnerability to all hazards. Though controversial, I wouldn't immediately discount QD/DD as being broken as we need to make sure that Aurumoth is extremely threatening, which was essentially the goal of the initial concept. Agility may be a good alternative though, but I'm wondering how Weak Armor is supposed to get any use that way.
  11. GRs Cousin

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    Will-O-Wisp - Yes
    Simple enough. Adds bulk to our already large physical tankiness, syncs well with all three abilities, and acts as a potential risk with the Guts users and Heatran running around.

    Glare - Yes, Stun Spore - No, Thunder Wave - No
    Thunder Wave is perfectly accurate, which I feel detriments the concept. The only risk with it is if the opponent switches into a Ground-type or Lightningrod Pokemon, which is only seldom risky considering your bulk/ability to merely switch to something else. Glare is the one I suggest of the three, it has imperfect accuracy that allows leanway to be used on more than one set. Stun Spore has very poor accuracy, meaning it would be exclusively used on No Guard sets, which would leave us with less diversity and Illusion support sets. With Glare, it still benefits from No Guard, but it otherwise has enough accuracy to not feel as if it requires No Guard to find use.

    Quiver Dance - No, Dragon Dance - Yes, Shift Gear - No
    Mainly for the same reasons as jas, Quiver Dance negates our Special Tankiness' risk and brings Aurumoth into what could be considered an upgraded, special-variant of Snorlax sets with Curse. Mind you, Snorlax did not have mixed offenses and a boost to its speed with every Curse, so this would end up too rewarding to just slap Quiver Dance on Aurumoth. Dragon Dance is at least feasible in that it can boost stats without being negating any weakness. Considering that there are many scenarios where even Multiscale Dragonite suffer from having to switch or faint after a boost, it would be giving Aurumoth the reward it needs. Shift Gear on the other hand... No. The doubling speed essentially means nobody will seriously consider using Weak Armor in offensive physical sets.

    Cotton Guard - Yes
    326 Defense x 2.5 = 815 Defense in a single turn. With Weak Armor, that's like being hit by a physical move and receiving a speed boost the same turn you use Iron Defense. I'd definitely call that a niche nothing else can pull off. Risky and rewarding, it'd make for some really unique wall sets. It'd also make for really good duality with Blissey, switching in on a Fighting-move to become the fastest wall in the game. Finally, a way to add "Risk in bulk". Whether this will actually help or not to the same calibur as a different move altogether, it's definitely risky with potential reward. It's fair enough, in other words. Allow it.
  12. nyttyn

    nyttyn Neko Miko Reimu, ai shiteru
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    Speed AND attack boosting needs to be allowed for one huge, huge reason: Simply boosting speed is no longer worth it in this metagame with very, very few exceptions.

    Sure, maybe in early B/W agility and what have you would've been nice. But not today, not any longer. With heavy offence being king and even pokemon that nearly guarantee you a KO not really being that good anymore, the meta has shifted highly towards power, with insane options such as Tornadus-T and Genesect running absolutely amok. Why would I want to bother setting up Agility when in that same turn my opponent could just flat out KO me, swap out to something that could KO me, get in a hit and then follow up with priority to kill me, or hell just flat out eat the hit after the boost and 2hko me?

    Let us not forget that Aurumoth is already SR weak, has a poor defensive typing, and honestly not great bulk (it's good, but any special attack ever will kill it, and it still suffers from being threatened with a OHKO/2HKO by every single attacking pokemon faster then it). Do we want Aurumoth to be used, or do we want to go so far to defend the concept to death that we will make it unusable, thus making this entire CAP pointless since it won't be good enough to answer the question it set out to make? At some point we need to realize that Aurumoth has risk enough: It needs reward, or it will be like trying to use Gardevoir in OU: Sure, it's risky, but what the hell do you get from it that you wouldn't get from something else? Certainly not enough, which is why Gardevoir is NU and not OU.

    In this meta of fast, bulky offensive options, it is simply no longer enough to have 600 BST and a good movepool if you suffer from 94 speed and a horrid defensive typing plus a horrendous special defense. Please remember that you have to sacrifice a turn to boost up, and in this meta, if ALL you get is more speed, then it is simply not worth a turn when there are so many ways the opponent could capitalize on that turn.
  13. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
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    Let’s talk about our cute baby Aurumoth a little bit. There are a lot of people out there who seem to be under the impression that this Pokemon, as it stands, is too powerful. Otherwise, why would they continue arguing to pile on more and more “risk” (whatever that means, anymore), without mentioning reward hardly at all or even exhibiting the understanding that there ought to be a reward element on the other end of this CAP somewhere? Bug/Psychic has good neutral coverage, perfect for the basic coverage of an offensive sweeper; unfortunately, it has only 94 base Speed, and so there are a bunch of things in OU that can outspeed our CAP naturally AND do 75% or more damage to it (i.e. OHKO 4/0 Aurumoth in a one-on-one scenario, factoring in Stealth Rock):

    Jolteon (LO Shadow Ball: 84.5% - 99.4% ; LO Thunderbolt: 74.9% - 88.7%)
    Tornadus-T (LO Hurricane: 189.5% - 223.8%)
    Alakazam (+0 Shadow Ball: 75.1% - 88.4% ; LO Shadow Ball: 97.2% - 114.9%)
    Starmie (LO Hydro Pump [no Rain]: 89% - 104.7% ; +0 Hydro Pump [no Rain]: 68.2% - 80.7%)
    Latios (+0 Draco Meteor: 95.6% - 112.7%)
    Gengar (+0 Shadow Ball: 109.4% - 129.3%)
    Terrakion (+0 Stone Edge: 91.2% - 107.7%)
    Infernape (+0 Fire Blast: 140.9% - 165.7%)
    Keldeo (+0 Hydro Pump: 81.5% - 96.1%)
    Thundurus-T (+0 Thunder: 74.6% - 87.8% ; LO Thunderbolt: 76.5% - 90.3%)
    Celebi (LO HP-Fire: 69.1% - 81.8%)
    Salamence (+0 Fire Blast: 87.3% - 103.3% ; +1 Outrage: 84.5% - 99.4%)
    Ninetales (+0, 4 SpA Flamethrower [Sun]: 107.7% - 126.5%)
    Volcarona (+0, 0 SpA Fiery Dance: 93.4% - 109.9%)
    Genesect (+1, 0 Atk U-turn: 74.6% - 87.8% ; +0 Bug Buzz: 94.5% - 111.6%)
    Hydreigon (+0 Dark Pulse: 87.8% - 103.3% ; +0 Draco Meteor: 76.2% - 89.8%)

    And here are the 2HKOs:

    Dugtrio (+0 Stone Edge: 43.6% - 51.9%)
    Latias (4 SpA, +0 Dragon Pulse: 44.2% - 52.2%)
    Thundurus-T (+0 Thunderbolt: 58.8% - 69.6%)
    Landorus (+0 Stone Edge: 43.6% - 51.9% ; +0 Sand Force Stone Edge 56.6% - 67.4%)
    Salamence (+0 Outrage: 56.4% - 66.3%)
    Genesect (+0 U-turn: 49.7% - 58.6%)
    Haxorus (+0 Outrage: 59.9% - 70.7%)

    For reference, the Pokes that outspeed Aurumoth but cannot 2HKO it are: Espeon (typically support), Jirachi (typically defensive, although ParaFlinch will most often win because it’s Jirachi), Celebi (oh shit more Paralysis to watch out for), Tentacruel (typically defensive, although offensive variants can do 77.1% - 90.6% with LO Hydro Pump outside of Rain, and defensive ones can do 44.8% - 53% with Scald in Rain), defensive Ninetales (lol), and Gliscor (typically defensive, watch for Toxic stall).

    If you noticed, the list of OU Pokemon that can O-2HKO Aurumoth is basically the exact same list of OU Pokemon that have >94 Spe. That’s a full TWENTY Pokemon that can revenge Aurumoth without even needing a single boost to Speed or Atk/SpA (beyond Life Orb, if you want to be specific)! Another point worth referencing is that most of the Pokemon in OU that are threatened by Moth’s Bug/Psychic STABs are on this list. This is going to absolutely kill our setup chances without at least bluffing coverage in order to force switches. How can we toss our beloved CAP into a metagame that is already more-than-ready to destroy it entirely?

    Alright, so it has Weak Armor, and a lot of people think Weak Armor is how we patch up the problem of being textbook-revenged by over a third of OU, which is only half-true. Yes we outspeed those unboosted threats, but let’s not forget that those threats can boost right back, just by switching in. Choice Scarf Latios (2.12%), Terrakion (3.94), Infernape (1.52), Keldeo (0.54), Thundurus-T (2.21), Salamence (3.77), Genesect (10.19), Hydreigon (1.22), Landorus (2.00), and Haxorus (1.11) all together accounted for 28.62% of the entire metagame in September (before Scarf Keldeo became popular, so that number will go up for October and for the playtest). Garchomp won’t be available for the playtest, but if it was, it would be another thing to worry about here. So if one can even manage to get a Speed boost, what good is it if you are still stopped cold by almost a third of OU?

    That’s not even considering how many slower Scarfers can outrun and O-2HKO Aurumoth when it doesn’t have the boost, things like Politoed, Heatran, Landorus-T, etc., many of whom aren’t going to even bother giving CAP a chance at getting to +1. It also doesn’t take into account things like Blissey, SpD Jirachi, or otherwise bulky Pokemon that can take neutral hits with relative ease and cripple Aurumoth with status or a weak neutral hit to finish it off or wear it down (remember that Weak Armor sets have to actually take damage in order to boost). Honestly, +1 Speed offers very little reward on its own, especially when this CAP has only two reliable resistances to switch in on, hazard/weather/status weaknesses everywhere, VoltTurn weakness to boot, and C+ super-effective coverage with three attacks (necessitating a power boost for neutral sweeping). I ask Weak Armor loyalists: where is the reward?

    I say Weak Armor is BETTER with Quiver Dance / Dragon Dance in the arsenal, specifically because both moves completely deal with the problems I just outlined: boosting on the switch puts faster Scarfers on their back foot and bothersome defensive Pokes must face the increased offensive power of a Dancing SuperBug. Otherwise, why bother with Weak Armor at all, when there are great things like DD Gyarados/Salamence/Dragonite or QD Volcarona to give you more consistent results?

    Speed-boosters not only make Weak Armor worth running, it makes the other Abilities worth running as well. While Illusion and No Guard builds will necessarily have to find creative ways past OU’s top Scarfers after only one turn of setup (unlike Weak Armor builds, when set up right), they also have unique traits that present their own brand of setup. Illusion can force a bad switch, giving you a shot at the second Speed boost needed to sweep, while No Guard can threaten bulky opponents with scary coverage moves like Blizzard and Thunder in order to net the free turn (and it can use them, too, while boosted!) The give-and-take of each Ability’s interaction with Speed-boosting moves should be obvious, and I hope people can begin to come around to the thought of a sweeper CAP. There are a lot of non-attacking moves to decide on here and for the final movepool, but when you’re considering the roles you want Aurumoth to play, does “offensive supporter” really come to mind, with all this CAP already has going against it in terms of typing, limiting (but clearly offensive) Abilities, and state of the metagame?

    Oh my god I’m tired. I will respond to responses to this post. I also have thoughts on other moves, so I’ll post about those sometime, too. I also haven’t read the 5 or 6 posts before this one as I post this, so if any of that makes any of this look dumb, please don’t think I’m dumb. I think I’m smart. And right.

    tl;dr Allow Dragon Dance and Quiver Dance because zombies will actually murder you and eat you and your family if you don’t (read the post; it’s in there somewhere).
  14. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    Hold on there. Usage stats are percent of teams, not percent of Pokemon. That means 28.62% of teams have those pokemon MAX. That is only if no team carries more than one. Correct me if I am wrong, but, to be accurate, it is 28.62/6 or 4.77% of Pokemon. Hardly as threatening when you look at it that way. Being stopped cold by a third of OU would be scary. Fortunately, that is only true of less than one twentieth, not one third.
  15. Legend13

    Legend13

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    Allow Will-O-Wisp.
    Will-O-Wisp would work well with Illusion sets, as your opponent might not be expecting it. But with Flash Fire and Guts users, it very well could backfire, which balances it all out.
    Allow Thunder Wave, Disallow Glare and Stun Spore.
    Thunder Wave has perfect accuracy, but using it risks a free switch in for any ground-types your opponent might have, which makes it perfectly fine for CAP4. On the other hand, Glare has 90% (which is pretty good) but nothing is immune to it, meaning that not much risk is involved. As for Stun Spore, it's too inaccurate, and would only be used on No Guard sets.
    Disallow Quiver Dance, Dragon Dance, and Shift Gear.
    All these moves boost an offensive stat and speed, which might seem fine. However, if you wanted CAP4 to have speed, you'd use Weak Armor! Boosting speed is usually the "safe option" when it comes to sweeping, and I'm not sure if CAP4 should have these moves, especially combined with it's already high stats.
    Allow Cotton Guard.
    Actually, this is a very interesting move when paired with CAP4, as it might just make it possible for CAP 4 to survive a multitude of physical attacks with the 2.5x defense boost. However, it still retains its weakness to Special attackers, meaning it can still be easily KO'd. Interesting...
  16. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
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    So let's look at what bugmaniacbob says for what he has in mind:

    With this in mind, to me, it's not so much about how risky the speed boosters are in a vacuum. It's about how difficult it would be to grab the setup turn necessary to get going. In this respect, the speed boosters will mostly be in the same boat as the other boosting moves. Will it be sufficient for CAP 4 to be able to sweep with Tail Glow or Swords Dance or whatever we're going to be giving Aurumoth in the non-speed-boosting department, or will those not be enough to make up for the setup opportunity that Aurumoth has to get? As of now, I can see the argument going either way, but at any rate, the focus should, I think, be on answering this question rather than the relatively useless one of how "risky" these moves are.

    I like Thunder Wave a bit because it's something that Illusion and Weak Armour can use in lieu of (possibly) No Guard Stun Spore or Glare, at the cost of having it not work against Ground-types. Landorus and Gliscor are particularly appealing for this dynamic. That said, I'm not sure I like the paralysis status itself for the risk-reward concept due to its turn-skipping shenanigans. The speed cut was enough, Game Freak. It really was... :(
  17. Mdevil

    Mdevil

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    Please, dear Arceus, do not allow quiver dance, dragon dance, or shift gear. This cap should not have any move boosting speed as well as any attacking stat. Boosting an attacking stat alone is fine; boosting speed stat alone is fine, but the two together would eliminate alot of the risk this pokemon should have.

    I, however, am in favor of boosting defenses. Cotton guard should be allowed as it could be very useful with weak armor Arumoth. The way I see it being used is Arumoth comes in to force a switch (say on Arghonaut) and goes for the cotton guard on the switch giving it a substantial boost. The problem with this however is the fact that the pokemon switched in could be a special attacker; risk. I wish there was a similar move for boosting spdef for the same reason but that is not currently up for discussion.

    I also support will-o-wisp and glare being allowed. The fact that I support glare over the other paralyzing moves is mainly for flavor reasons (those eyes...) but I strongly feel this poke should have some status inducing moves as I can see this poke being forced to switch easily (looking at Prankster Tomohawk) and having a lasting advantage would be useful. Also, as Aurumoth has near perfect coverage when using 3 moves, it won't be running 2 status moves. Will-o-wisp could be used to stop physical attackers but not special giving it a bit of risk in just bringing it and glare can be a bit safer option by weakening either special or phyiscal attackers. btw I feel these are the only status moves Aurumoth should have but I know most would disagree.

    Tl;Dr just read the bold... duh...
  18. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked

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    In my mind, two things make this Pokémon risky: its low special defense and its lackluster typing; its speed was designed to be lackluster, but very useable. Furthermore, we wanted to make this equally powerful on both ends of the spectrum, and we wanted to maintain a sort of triality between Auromoth’s three abilities. For those reasons, I favor allowing Dragon Dance and not allowing Quiver Dance and Gear Shift.

    At the moment, I think Auromoth is a lot stronger on the special side than the physical. It has access to diverse coverage options like Thunderbolt, Aura Sphere, and Hydro Pump, has attacks that can be abused by No Guard such Focus Blast, Thunder, and Blizzard, and, most importantly, it has Tail Glow. Given our CAP’s superb special coverage, access to Psyshock, and a +3 special attack boosting move, it seems to me that physical sets would be far less effective than special sets due to the lack of equivalent power/versatility on the physical side. I’d rather not have this thing end up like Lucario which is mostly a physical attacker despite its superb special attack, and the only way I see this happening is if we give Auramoth’s offensive sets extra sweeping potential in exchange for a significant drop in pure power. I don’t feel that Dragon Dance would make Weak Armor because, as Korski explained, Auramoth is nowhere near supersonic with one Dragon Dance boost, and would definitely appreciate the security it obtains at +2.

    With that being said, I fear Gear Shift would make Weak Armor obsolete because there are very few threats you outspeed at +3 that you wouldn’t at +2, and I really want to preserve the triality our abilities create. I don’t like Quiver Dance at all because it patches up the special defense weakness, and I feel that dilutes the concept. If there was a move that just raised SPA and Speed, I'd consider it, but the Special Defense Boost just kills it for me.

    tl;dr- Allow Dragon Dance, Disallow Quiver Dance and Gear Shift

    Oh yeah, on a completely unrelated note, what do you guys think about Belly Drum? I didn’t see it in the pending category or the discussion category. It is a very risky move that invokes a very risky strategy but with extremespeed and sucker punch, it just might be worth it. Thoughts?
  19. CiteAndPrune

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    *sees all the sleep-moves disallowed* ....... huh. And here I thought abusing those with No Guard would've been the obvious way to take. But I don't mind - I'm glad we're not giving Aurumoth a better Spore.

    On the status moves:
    -Will-o'-Wisp is okay. Aurumoth needs some kind of answer to Pursuit/priority users and burn is alright for this reason. It would work differently depending on which ability Aurumoth runs (faster WoW with WA, surprise WoW with Illusion, no-miss WoW with No Guard). I don't agree with srk that Aurumoth should Overheat the hell out of Scizor as the only answer, as opposed to cripple with burn - I think the burn is a valuable answer to not just Scizor but non-Fire weak Pursuiters (like Ttar, although our Bug STAB covers him) that Aurumoth should have available. Therefore allow WoW.
    -Glare is also good. We need more Glare in this metagame. (And by extension, Stun Spore, although that'd need No Guard very much). I like paralysis on Aurumoth because it's the only status with which it can address faster special attackers that'd normally murder it. With Tail Glow allowed, I can see Aurumoth functioning almost like Paradancer Groudon in Ubers (except Groudon has a way better typing + ability when it comes to passive damage), if care is taken to keep hazards off the field (and thankfully Wish is allowed), Aurumoth could proceed to paralyze every threatening Pokemon on the enemy team, then pull out Tail Glow and sweep everyone with the remaining two moves. I think it's fine to allow Glare.
    -Because of the above also allow ThunderWave. I think Aurumoth needs the reliable paralysis for non-NG sets, although even those can opt for Glare's accuracy to not gamble vs the Ground types (who might already want to jump in on our Electric coverage sometimes anyhow).

    On the boosting moves:
    -Disallow Quiver Dance. I generally agree with jas here; we know how Volcarona works and we've built Aurumoth to have a weakness in SDF that, at most, is okay if it tried to address with Calm Mind. Fixing its speed and special bulk in one turn of setup... I won't say it would be too easy. I'll rather say, that the decision between Speed and the +1 SAT/+1 SDF can be meaningful to Aurumoth's gameplay, and encourage WA to cover up and provide that +1 SPD through other means, as its bulk is decent (if you come in on a Fighting contact move and Calm Mind on the switch your net result is +1 SAT/SDF/SPD anyway).
    -Allow Dragon Dance. This one I was on the fence about, but in short, Aurumoth's strengths in coverage lie on the special side (it doesn't even get awesome physical STAB, and Psyshock lets it hit physical without splitting EVs) so having DD in its arsenal would allow it to differentiate between its physical and special sets more meaningfully. There is still merit to running WA with DD because of all the things you can do at +1 ATK/+2 SPD. Also, unlike QD boosting SDF, Dragon Dance is full out offensive, so I'm in favor.
    -Disallow Shift Gear. For all the good things DD brings, we don't need Shift Gear packing that in one move. Let it be incentive for players to choose WA for DD sweepers to get the upper hand on all the Scarfed revengers supposed to bring it down to its knees.
    -Allow Cotton Spore. This is a no-brainer, but as an alternative to Pursuiters/Priority users, and with burn as another answer (or Reflect), standing there to boost DEF on the switch is risky in all kinds of ways. However, in combination with WA giving it expendable DEF boosts it can raise again whenever dropping too low, it has the chance to be the fastest and riskiest Wish-passer/offensive wall in the metagame. Even if that doesn't happen, it's a new niche I'd love to give a chance to.

    ..... and since forestflamerunner mentioned it, about Belly Drum - with Aurumoth's weaknesses to all sorts of passive damage, from hazards, and weather, and having to probably take a hit coming in, cutting your HP by half max and leaving yourself wide open for a second hit.....

    It doesn't seem like it'd ever work. Even with some DS+Memento support, I just don't see it. Belly Drum is not the kind of risk-reward we want on Aurumoth, I feel.
  20. samtheman

    samtheman

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    I think Belly Drum should definitely be included/allowed. Even if it might be seen as too risky compared to Swords Dance, that should be up to the movepool creators/users of Aurumoth to choose.

    As far as Dragon Dance, Quiver Dance, and Shift Gear are concerned, I think that Aurumoth should have to decide between boosting an attacking stat and being too slow (Tail Glow, Swords Dance, Belly Drum, Nasty Plot, etc.), or boosting speed and not hitting hard enough (Agility). The middle ground that DD, QD, and SG provide are just too safe.
  21. HAiGAizZ

    HAiGAizZ

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    Here's my proposal: A new move that boosts special attack and speed only.
    Now, hear me out, don't jump on me immediately and tell me to lurk moar, I literally think this would be a great route for Aurumoth to take.

    One of the problems that people have with QD is the fact that it boosts special defense, eliminating some of the risk factor. I definitely agree, and I think we indeed should disallow Quiver dance. However, I think that introducing this special DD would remove this problem, allowing for a purely offensive boosting move on the special side that doesn't mitigate risk in any way.

    Now I know there are a lot of people against DD and QD purely because it boosts speed and an offensive stat, but I am of the opinion that there is pretty much no way this pokemon is going to sweep at +1 speed. As jas said above, some of the most common scarfers outspeed Aurumoth at +1, and they can all threaten to kill it after SR damage. Simply using Tail Glow or Swords Dance even after getting the Weak Armor boosts is pretty much never going to sweep a team.
    I also want to allow Dragon Dance, pretty much for the same reasons stated above.

    Alright, I know this wasn't the most amazingly formulated and structured post in the world, but I hope some of you can see past that, and understand what I'm trying to say. This Pokemon NEEDS an extra speed boost to sweep, Weak Armor doesn't cut it. And where Quiver Dance would be risk mitigating, a new move without the Spdef boost would not.
  22. Cuiv

    Cuiv

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    Please, please, please allow Quiver Dance, Dragon Dance and Shift Gear. If we don't, Aurumoth will be unusably bad in OU. It will provide no insight into anything because it will be simply too weak to seriously compete, and all we will have accomplished in the test is to see what OU would look like if everyone were forced to run one sub-par Pokemon.

    True, there are other options that could be put on Aurumoth to make it usable, but those, like Shell Smash, both seem less likely and more broken. I'd rather see Quiver Dance and Dragon Dance.

    Korski has laid out a significant number of reasons that I basically agree with, and I don't think we need more elaboration.

    Also, boosting in general is risky: What if your opponent has a 100% answer (including any of the Scarfers Korsi listed, who are on more than a quarter of teams), or the switch-in you thought was safe actually isn't because it's an unusual set? You were a lot better off spamming Bug Buzz than using Quiver Dance, but you took the risk of not attacking.

    On the other points:
    1. Allow Will-o-wisp. Well-balanced and interesting, plays well with both No Guard and Weak Armor.
    2. Allow Thunder Wave and Stun Spore, disallow Glare. T-Wave risks free switch-ins. Glare has no real down side, so I don't think it's a good idea. Stun Spore, while probably only going to be used on No Guard sets, at least provides a potential alternative to Thunder Wave for Weak Armor or Illusion sets without being as strong as Glare.
    3. Allow Cotton Spore. Aurumoth is not Chansey or Blissey. Cotton Spore is fine on everything not named Chansey or Blissey and opens some interesting design space (but is probably not strong enough alone, unfortunately).

    Also vote to allow Belly Drum, the quintessential risky move. I don't think it's terribly useful since Aurumoth is slow and has mediocre defenses, but it can't hurt to be allowed.

    I know we said entry hazards are off the table, but can we reconsider Toxic Spikes? They're much riskier than other entry hazards (very easily removed, essentially a dead move if your opponent has Tentacruel/Venusaur/some other Poison type). Combined with Cotton Guard, they could give Aurumoth an interesting niche.
  23. ZhengTann

    ZhengTann Nargacuga
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    Let's start off with the less conflicting status moves. I'm for allowing WoW, Stun Spore, T-Wave, and Glare - basically I see simple risk/reward scenario here:

    There you have it. Not many would waste Aurumoth's attacking stats to do a support job when there are many others in OU - pixies immediately sprang onto mind - who can do it better. Now onto the minefield - boosting moves. Cotton Guard could be allowed - though I doubt any sane opponent will continue using physical attacks on Cotton Guard Weak Armour Aurumoth just to aim for a Stone Edge critical. Onto the speed boosters -

    So allowing Quiver Dance and Dragon Dance wouldn't overpower Aurumoth to me. It simply provides a safer access to extra speed without having to resort to taking 2 physical hits using Weak Armour (heck, even Weak Armour variants would appreciate this). However, I'm against allowing Shift Gear. +2 neutral Speed turns Aurumoth into an unstoppable racer in a single turn, outspeeding even Scarf Jolly Terrakion with a mere 144 EVs investment. Add that to +1 Base 120 Attack, coupled with the correct coverage moves, renders Aurumoth a pretty safe, solid physical sweeper. Just +2 Speed with Agility won't cut it, though - Aurumoth would still lack the raw power to sweep effectively. Tail Glow, Swords Dance, and Calm Mind fulfil a completely different role, given Aurumoth's middling Speed - unlike the Lati@s twins, who are already sitting at a blistering base 110, Aurumoth can only break walls should it lack the Speed boosts, not sweep.
  24. Theorymon

    Theorymon You have a fever. I prescribe more dead angels.
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    I'm totally fine with Dragon Dance. As some people have mentioned already, base 94 Speed isn't that great, and if anything, Weak Armor could make Dragon Dance BETTER than normal, and it's also a nice tool for Illusion to screw some stuf up. I'm also totally fine with all the paralysis moves. However about Quiver Dance... I'm unsure about that. I don't mind the Speed Boost or the Special Attack boost, but the Special Defense boost seems like a rather risk averse thing to me... so I'm undecided on that.

    EDIT: This was brought up on IRC, something to note is that the most likely recovery move Aurumoth can get is Wish, so it's not like it can use QD like a lot of Volcarona sets can. It would be strictly for offensive purposes and maybe some sort of odd chesto rest set, but that Special Defense and the many weaknesses it has isn't really doing Aurumoth many favors.
  25. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
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    Oh, damn, it looks like you're right about that 28% stat. My apologies if I mislead anyone; what I intended to show was that 10 Choice Scarf users accounted for 28.62% of the Pokemon used in OU in September (although looking back I probably should have thought that number was way high before I even posted it, lol), when in actuality what I showed was the individual usage percentages of those 10 Pokemon equipped with a Choice Scarf in September (or in other words, that the combined usage of those 10 Scarfers was 28.62% of teams, not of individual Pokemon used). To be clear, that means that roughly 1 in 4 teams will have one or more Pokemon that can and will outspeed and KO +1 Aurumoth. Take from that what you will.

    So that's less scary than I originally thought, but by no means does it let Aurumoth off the hook. I'm no math man, obviously, but I'd like to get a better statistical idea of how well Aurumoth can fare with Illusion and No Guard but no means of boosting Speed whatsoever. I'd also like to get a statistical idea of how good of a shot Weak Armor Aurumoth has at nabbing a Speed boost and then sweeping. So if anyone could figure out the chances of running into any of these folks in the OU metagame, I'd appreciate the more-educated analysis:
    Also if anyone wanted to start on calcs that show how Quiver Dance and/or Dragon Dance are broken or not, or if they want to mention anything about the metagame instead of moves-in-a-vacuum, feel free to actually use concrete evidence in support of your opinions instead of blind rage and/or panic.
    Looking at you guys.

    The best (only remotely convincing) argument against Quiver Dance is that it also boosts CAP's SpD, which is its "weak spot," "as we've said all along." No, it's weak spot is not its 6 common weaknesses or its unbelievably limited list of resistances for how slow it is, nor is it the vast number of Pokemon that can threaten it out of battle instantly or its vulnerability to entry hazards. It's not even Moth's contrived offensive Abilities, difficulty setting up, or its direct competition from other Pokemon who don't have those first six non-weaknesses. It's actually the low Special Defense, which is not just another ton of risky bricks we've dropped on our CAP; instead it's the only thing keeping Aurumoth from skyrocketing through Ubers and into the stratosphere to hang out with Huge Power Arceus, Darth Vader, and Wargreymon.

    I don't have time to do calcs right now myself, but I'm willing to bet the SpD boost won't do much to stop the things that can already KO Aurumoth or status, wall, or phaze it from the defensive side. PROVE ME WRONG. Considering all the thing's we've stacked against this Pokemon already, are we going to keep neglecting to reward ourselves for using it?

    EDIT: I'm glad to see people are coming around to Dragon Dance. If anything, a Psychic/Bug physical sweeper could never be considered broken.

    EDIT 2: Also I'd like to point out that Genesect has a pretty gnarly Rock Polish set. Consider Download and 120/120/99 offenses compared to (No Guard?) and 120/117/94 offenses. No, forget everything and focus on the 99 vs. 94 Speed. Then tell me with a straight face that Agility Aurumoth is even a remote option.
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