1. GET SMOGON SHIRTS HERE! First time ever. Limited time only & next time the design will be different, so get it while you can!
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  3. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 10 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by bugmaniacbob, Oct 27, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris an Artistis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    CAP Head Mod

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2010
    Messages:
    3,788
    Also note that not everyone will include Quiver Dance in their movepool. Keeping Calm Mind is definitely the way to go in order to preserve the different visions of different movepool creators.

    I would post more thoroughly, but jas and Korski have pretty much summed up my thoughts. I'm definitely against Quiver Dance and I think it would bring too many similarities to Volcarona, which isn't conducive to learning much. It's not a move that it needs in any particular way either, so I'm for disallowing it. Dragon Dance, on the other hand, is something new, particularly with bluffing OU Dragons with Illusion; I am for it. Disallowing Substitute makes a lot of sense as well. I don't buy the argument of "CAP4 has better moves to use" at all. Pretty much every Pokemon develops a solid Substitute set sooner or later. If we include it, it will get used.
  2. Legend13

    Legend13

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2012
    Messages:
    85
    Sorry about that stupid post earlier. Anyway, allow Dragon Dance, since it is middle ground between Agility and Swords Dance, and would make a physical set possible (in parallel with a tail glow set). As for Quiver Dance, I honestly don't remember why it matters that it is on the same moveset as Calm Mind (sorry). Since the SPD boost doesn't matter that much, it can be likened to a special version of Dragon Dance, which is just fine! Allow Quiver Dance. Substitute can be learned by every pokemon except wobba, karp, and feebas. Flavor aside, there is no reason Moth shouldn't have Substitute. Birkal was right; every pokemon develops some use for substitute sooner or later, and there is no reason that Moth won't. We may even learn something, so allow Substitute.

    if tl;dr allow Dragon Dance, Quiver Dance, and Substitute.
  3. meteor64

    meteor64

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2008
    Messages:
    321
    If we disallow Sub we void part of the concept. Which is stupid. Allow Substitute.
  4. GRs Cousin

    GRs Cousin

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    302
    Fair enough. Honestly, all I wanted was a reason rather than just a straight-up NO.

    a) They aren't designed with Generation V's metagame in mind and 117 base Special Attack
    b)
    Code:
    +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Blizzard vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latias: 83.9% - 99.1%
    +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Celebi: 92.6% - 109.4%
    +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 97.4% - 115%
    +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Thunder vs. 252 HP / 244 SpD Jirachi: 47.5% - 55.9%
    +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 70.3% - 82.8%
    
    Considering how this OHKOs some of the specially bulkiest things in the tier after factoring in Stealth Rock, 2HKOing everything else even after Leftovers recovery, yeah, I do think it would work. This isn't even factoring in other mons that take super effective damage, and ignores your third move completely. That's viable.

    Regardless, I hope we don't get Quiver Dance.
  5. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    2,298
    My point was that the combination you gave was poorly thought out and rather decidedly inferior to QD/Bug Buzz/Psyshock/Hydro Pump or QD/Bug Buzz/Psychic/Focus Blast

    ...rather than it not being viable at all.

    (this isn't supposed to be a counterargument, I'm just explaining my post further)
  6. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    2,886
    Are you actually suggesting that Aurumoth will forego STAB moves for a bunch of calcs?

    I don't get the whole discussion about outclassing Calm Mind. That has little to do with anything. Aurumoth isn't even required to have Calm Mind...

    Something that amuses me about the Special Defense boost part of the discussion is that Aurumoth's uninvested defenses differ from each other by exactly a factor of 1.5. I swear I didn't specifically intend that, lol... I think it does put a bit of a new perspective into things, though. Namely, Aurumoth's defenses will be roughly even with either a Quiver Dance boost after Weak Armour activation, and the defenses will be pretty much switched if both happen. I'm not entirely sure of what to think of this, other than that I actually find this situation kind of amusing and definitely not something that happens with Volcarona, which notably resists most of the common priority moves AND has Flame Body to discourage priority move use even further. If the "Special Defense as weak point" paradigm goes at the window, but at the cost of making the Defense play the "intended" role, is that necessarily a bad thing? On the other hand, we also have the two other abilities, which might end up ruining all this...

    Also we'd need a thorough analysis of teammate stats to get a truly accurate look at the total use of Choice Scarf users on teams. Nonetheless, we can probably rule out teams with multiple Choice Scarf users as outliers, and at any rate, the 10.19% from Genesect would be a lower bound.

    Speaking of Genesect:
    4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def (custom): 180-212 (49.86 - 58.72%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO
    4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def (custom): 266-314 (73.68 - 86.98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Take from that what you will.
  7. Mdevil

    Mdevil

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    109
    I thought about this for a bit and I still feel that Dragon Dance is simply not right for Aurumoth, however, I do agree that there is a definite special bias currently. My idea, though not a great one as even I will admit, is to, in place of Dragon Dance, use Bulk up. On Weak Armor variants there is a potential for this being a attk/spd boost while on Illusion and No guard variants (each of which already posses an attacking advantage over Weak Armor) it would boost only attk/def. Also it could be considered risky as it could not even result in a spd boost unless played properly... Just something to consider...
  8. Roulette

    Roulette

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2012
    Messages:
    1
    Allow Substitute
    Everything has it, and it provides some minor security.

    Allow Quiver Dance
    If you don't like it, don't use it, but the boosts this gives fit perfectly with Auru's intended sweeping, imo.

    Don't Allow Dragon Dance, Allow Bulk Up (or something similar)
    I have to agree with Mdevil here. From both a gameplay and flavor standpoint, DD is unnecessary. Bulk Up allows physical sets to work with a bit of effort and function well with Weak Armor. Other options may turn out to be better, though.
  9. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    2,298
    So, then, gentlemen, it's 4am here and I've just finished my work. Just enough time to do laundry, have a shower, and make large important decisions about huge community Pokemon project. Hooray.

    In all seriousness, right now my position on this subject hasn't changed at all; that is to say, I really have no idea whose side to take. I'll ignore Substitute for the moment and just concentrate on QD/DD.

    I can accept the fact that Quiver Dance and Dragon Dance make other options that we had outlined not quite as appealing. Hell, one of the biggest things that I don't like about QD is that it makes Tail Glow + Weak Armour almost obsolete as a strategy - largely because one is so much safer than the other. But to suggest that Quiver Dance is entirely safe, or indeed entirely against the concept, is, in my view, erroneous.

    I can accept the fact that Quiver Dance and Dragon Dance turn what is currently a Pokemon with a very uncertain role or niche in a metagame that we know comparatively little about into one with a very definite niche. Hell, I've seen what's happening in the Kyurem-B test - all the bulk and power in the world is meaningless if you aren't fast enough or your typing does not allow you to make the most of it. But to suggest that Quiver Dance is entirely necessary, or indeed that Aurumoth will fail to be a force of any sort in OU without it, is, in my view, erroneous.

    Volcarona has been brought up as an example. Indeed, I've brought it up to myself many times over the course of this CAP as an example of something I have wanted the CAP to emulate, but at the same time, be distinct from. At the moment, we have a slower, weaker, and less specially bulky Volcarona. Therein is the principle difference between the two. Volcarona is actually pretty damn tanky on the special side - 85/105 is a lot better than 110/60, or at least, it's the difference between being able to actually set up on moves that are super effective against you, and not being able to do so. The modus operandi of both Volcarona and Aurumoth will be to come in on something that doesn't threaten them and set up - for Volcarona, these are special threats, and for Aurumoth, typically physical. Thus Aurumoth, unlike Volcarona, carries a degree of risk irrespective of what it happens to sidle into - or in a different sense, rather. By boosting up, it doesn't enable it to weather any further assault that the Pokemon it switched into may throw at it, or at least, not to any greater degree. Rather, it is mitigating three of its weaknesses - subpar Speed, moderate attacking stats, and low special defence. As such, it is becoming, effectively, more reliable as a sweeper. As such, I could not really care less about the special defence boost. It isn't removing a weak spot as such - that weak spot always exists, and you just have to hit it. It's simply a weakness in setting up rather than a perpetual one.

    Kyurem-B has been brought up as an example. Indeed... yeah I'm probably the only one who's brought it up. Maybe just Kyurem would be a better example. But anyway. It's a Pokemon with a BST of 700 and the only Dragon which Genesect's Scarf set can't really fight at all. So what's the problem with it? Sloth and bad typing, really. Ice/Dragon is funky as heck and gives a lot of neutral coverage in one move, but as we predicted when talking about Bug/Dragon, using Outrage or Draco Meteor pretty much equates to a death sentence by revenge killing. Therein is the difference between the two. Kyurem-B has only a few sets it can feasibly run, all of which are similar to Pokemon that already exist in OU in terms of their general responses. Aurumoth on the other hand is, if all goes well, versatile as heck. It has actually legitimate boosting options and a properly comprehensive set of coverage options. It also has versatility in abilities, versatility in the way its stat spread can be played - it is almost the reverse of the previous problem. The fact that it has no real solid niche can be interpreted, in some warped way, as a strength, should it turn out the way we want it to.

    And thus is the argument, I think. On the one hand we must ask ourselves whether versatility alone is enough to justify a spot in OU any longer. On the other hand we must ask ourselves whether so significant a jump in power as adding so notable a boosting move causes us to jump all the way from risky to standard - that, I think, is the size of the jump. If I may paint a picture, we have at present an ideal, situated directly in the middle of two camps. The two camps cannot go any closer, and refuse to move further away. Both are close to the ideal, but from opposite directions, neither of which, in and of themselves, is entirely ideal.

    What I'd like to do now is to propose some questions to both sides. I'd like to do that, but unfortunately I'm pretty sure it wouldn't solve anything, would likely involve a rehashing of everything already said, and to be honest I know what your answers will be anyway. And I'll probably find myself agreeing with both of them, because I sympathise with both approaches - but not any halfway house.

    In any case, a decision is not really something I can make while this tired and spouting this kind of rubbish, so I'll only say this - I am thoroughly glad we are having this discussion. This is exactly the kind of challenge I envisaged at the onset of this project - to see us attempt to reconcile the ominous spectre of power creep with our knowledge of the metagame - to reconcile the concept with the demands of a metagame - it is truly invigorating. Hopefully what I've posted will give you some sort of framework around which to base the rest of your ideas and the rest of your arguments.

    The onus is on those who dislike Quiver Dance to prove that it is against the concept, be it through a collapse of ability triality, the emergence of a standard, reliable set, or otherwise.

    The onus is on those who like Quiver Dance to prove that it does not go against the concept, be it through countering the above points, or else demonstrating whatever qualities it may have that make up for its deficiencies.

    Continue.
  10. The Other Doug

    The Other Doug

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2009
    Messages:
    278
    Am I the only one concerned about the combination of Will-o-Wisp and No Guard? Between always burning an opponent and somewhat good physical defense, I feel that could make Aurumoth fairly bulky on the physical side, which doesn't seem very risky.

    I'm not immediately saying that Will-O-Wisp should be disallowed, but the potential abuse of No Guard + Will-O-Wisp should be discussed.
  11. ChrisTehAwesome

    ChrisTehAwesome

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2012
    Messages:
    297
    I thought physical bulk was what we were going for?
    I actually really like no guard and will-o as it makes for an interesting situation when facing Aurumoth. It helps out the No Guard sets against physical attackers almost as much as weak armour, provided it also has a speed boosting move.
  12. CiteAndPrune

    CiteAndPrune

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    203
    The defenses-switch that cape brought attention to got me wondering. With that in mind, a Pokemon whose weaknesses flip in a controllable manner becomes very interesting. Hitting Weak Armor ones more opens up their physical side to revenge by priority, but throws them still higher out of reach as far as raw Speed and Scarfers are concerned.

    The problem, I guess, would be that in the absence of Weak Armor, after one QD Aurumoth has equal defenses, only the weaknesses to worry about, and any second boost would send it through the roof barring priority. Illusion sets grabbing two boosts in a row while the enemy switches to and back from an inadequate counter could pull this off, or determine the metagame around turns wasted by the bluff of switching into Illusion Aurumoth.


    If QD is in such a position, could it be somehow limited in availability compared with Aurumoth's other options? I don't know how, as Egg or Event Move or with which moves specifically, but it's something to consider.


    Also as meteor64 brought up, Substitute is a part of the concept. For me that settles it - allow Substitute. We won't learn as much by disallowing it as we could by allowing and seeing how Aurumoth fares with it; even the choice of which moves it drops to carry Substitute can teach us plenty.
  13. RavensNation

    RavensNation

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Messages:
    106

    I don't know... one hand it's true that it would make it bulky defensively (although I don't really see how it detracts from whether it's risky or not. As it has been said before, Aurumoth has a LOT more things to worry about than defensive stats), but at the same time there are some pretty good Flash Fire Pokémon out there that could potentially use a the boost to counter Aurumoth (Fire > Bug) and/or set up a sweep. The first Pokémon tha comes to mind if Chandelure, especially with a Choice Scarf, though admittedly you can just stop it with a Flash Fire Pokémon of your own of you're really worried (oh look! Teambuilding risk!) Also, outside from No Guard, I don't really see Will-o'-Wisp seeing much usage, so I see no reason to disallow it. Move's already allowed, anyway.

    EDIT: I think I worded something in a bit of a confusing way... I meant to say it has so many problems that being defensively bulky wouldn't do much to mitigate them.

    EDIT 2: Actually, I quite like having Will-o'-Wisp as a movepool option (keep in mind that individual movepools can choose to omit the move.) It's has the potential to be extremely useful in terms of team support (as well as individually) without being completely uncontrolable. I think it strikes a nice balance between risk and reward.
  14. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    387
    I'm not too worried about Will-o-Wisp - even with No Guard it's still far less annoying than Sableye, whom uses it with priority. At the most it could be used to burn switch-ins, and I doubt it will be used on full sweeper sets as it takes up a slot for coverage.
  15. zyrefredric

    zyrefredric

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    524
    Maybe we could reconsider allowing Ingrain? I guess we want Aurumoth to have only Wish as its only form of recovery, but Ingrain/Stored Power/CM or QD is a very rewarding, yet risky strategy because of the self-locking aspect.

    And yeah, I know GR and bmb talked about it, but I still don't get why Belly Drum is disallowed. Is it because it makes auru too powerful? Or is it because it's weak compared to other options that it's just not worth it? If it's the latter, why not allow it? It iIS up to movepool creators what moves they'd include.
  16. jagged_angel

    jagged_angel

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2007
    Messages:
    776
    Some very interesting discussions going on about the boosting moves here.

    It seems like we aren't worried about Aurumoth's ability to hit hard - with Swords Dance/Tail Glow it can certainly do that. The main worries behind the debate are about sweeping without being revenge-killed, and to a lesser extent about Ability triality.

    I thought that when we chose a stat spread with less than 99 Speed, we had pretty much resigned ourselves to being revenge killed by Choice Scarf Genesect. With a SpA boost from Download, Genesect is always going to be OHKO'ing Aurumoth (116.9% - 138% from Timid Scarfsect even if Aurumoth has +1 SpA). We have seen from Korski's calcs that plenty of OU pokemon can OHKO Aurumoth with SR factored in. So unless we get to +2 Speed somehow, the Scarfers of OU are going to have a field day no matter what Aurumoth does. While it isn't impossible to get to +2 speed with Weak Armour alone, it is pretty damn hard. So for the large number of people that think Aurumoth will be underpowered if it can't outspeed Scarfers, it would be good to give Aurumoth some way to do that while still being a scary offensive threat.

    For these reasons I would vote to Allow Dragon Dance. As it is, the Physical movepool for Aurumoth is much less impressive than the Special side. I can't imagine an Aurumoth with Swords Dance, Megahorn, Zen Headbutt and Close Combat (for example) having a chance to sweep whole teams with +2 Attack but only 0 to (situational) +1 speed. We want Aurumoth to have a chance at this, otherwise there is no High Reward. So allowing Aurumoth a similar moveset but with +1 Attack +1 possibly +2 Speed is significantly helping the High Reward aspect of the concept. The in-built risks are already there.

    I would Disallow Quiver Dance however, as it is better than Tail Glow (for sweeping, not wall-breaking), better than Agility, better than Dragon Dance and uses Aurumoth's likely better Special movepool to sweep. As far as I can see, it definitively outclasses all other boosting moves that are being considered. I think that if QD was allowed, the Special movepool would have to be seriously nerfed in order for it not to be used significantly more than Physical/Mixed sets. I don't want that to have to happen. With SD/Dragon Dance/Tail Glow/Calm Mind you have a much more balanced array of boosting moves to choose from.

    The fact that QD bolsters Aurumoth's weaker defensive stat and therefore allows it to survive neutral special hits while boosting speed and retaining physical bulk does not bode well for Weak Armour usage either. It's quite easy to see how Aurumoth could get 2 QDs under its belt and therefore get to +2 speed without Weak Armour. This is not something I want to happen as it really does reduce the usefulness of the Primary Ability.

    As an addenum, please Allow Substitute. It's part of the Concept, it uses your precious health which may then be down to 50% if SR is already on the field, if you want to use it with a stat boosting move you have to make do with 2 move coverage, and if you use it with WA, you still need to boost offensive stats in order to be unstoppable behind a sub. It's really not a very safe option on Aurumoth, and I for one want to know the answer to the question posed about it in the Concept.
  17. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris an Artistis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    CAP Head Mod

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2010
    Messages:
    3,788
    This is a misinterpretation of the concept. I wasn't going to bring this up because I saw a few posts bring it up that I thought were just spouting ignorance, but apparently there is a gap between what the concept says and what people are noting that the concept says. Let's check it out:

    I want to emphasize the last three words. Built and played. capefeather, as far as I can tell, did not say "CAP4 needs to have Substitute" by any means. Rather, the concept shows interest in our discussion of Substitute. The concept writer well knows that Substitute is one of the safest moves in Pokemon; what he seems to be interested is the interaction between Substitute and CAP4, whether that interaction means we give it Substitute or revoke it. It's an all encompassing notion that includes whether CAP4 has Substitute AND opponents using Substitute, since both have to deal with safety, risk, and prediction. Please do not interpret the concept as saying CAP4 should have Substitute; it is wrong to think that it states that.

    I'm still gonna push for disallowing Substitute because it really does take away from the risk element of CAP4. Trying to pawn it off as a move that CAP4 wouldn't really want to use is pointless as well. I've stated this before and I stand firmly by it: any Pokemon that gets Substitute WILL find a viable set to use it. This happens all the time in C&C. A Pokemon will have an analysis on-site for a few months and then some OU battler will come along and say "oh wow, the Substitute set is really good!" Substitute is a great move because it decreases risk/pressure and allows for ease of prediction.
  18. jagged_angel

    jagged_angel

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2007
    Messages:
    776
    I really don't want to dwell on Substitute as I don't think Aurumoth will have much use for it, but just to clarify for you Birkal, I never misinterpreted the Concept, it is you who has misinterpreted me.

    I never said "the Concept says we must give CAP4 Substitute". It is part of the Concept, it asks a question about Substitute. You cannot answer that question without giving Aurumoth Substitute. You cannot see how Substitute will impact how this Pokémon is built and played if Aurumoth does not have Substitute.

    The only way Substitute could impact the play of Aurumoth if it didn't have the move itself, is by seeing how it is used on other pokemon. We already know how to deal with Substitute on pokemon in general, the only way in which we can learn more about how Substitute will impact Aurumoth's play is if it has the move. I really don't think it'll be as viable as you suggest, not with a SR weakness and lacking the attack/spa/speed to be a major threat with Sub + 3 attacks. Anyway, the point is we cannot find out who is right unless we Allow Substitute. The fact that we are even debating this means the question posed by the Concept is interesting to answer.
  19. TooMuchSugar

    TooMuchSugar

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2012
    Messages:
    443
    All right, time to contribute after lurking through the beginning of the discussion!
    I really would like to see Aurumoth use Quiver Dance and Dragon Dance. Both will SLIGHTLY patch up Aurumoth's speed, but still leave it open to revenge killing by anything scarfed. The only way these could let it sweep would be
    a) a Weak Armor boost
    or
    b) two QD/DD boosts (helped by illusion?)
    These moves would work really well with two of Aurumoth's abilities, and Swords Dance/Tail Glow would still be viable for wallbreaking with No Guard. Of course, I may be using too much theorymon...
  20. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Messages:
    2,142
    Okay, home stretch. Thank goodness I have something to work off of now (thanks for taking some precious time off from your work, bmb, so you can actually get to doing your other work), so this will be my "ultimate post" regarding Quiver Dance. There will be no more novels from me on the subject after this, although I may still respond to particularly strong or particularly weak rebuttals to the content of this post.
    HOW DO YOU PROVE A NEGATIVE I suppose the general framework around the pro-Quiver Dance camp, as far as I see it, is that we acknowledge the realities of our CAP's Speed tier and typing as they interact with the OU metagame, and we see those two areas as overwhelmingly risky when considering Aurumoth for teambuilding. We believe that there ought to be a reward that matches or exceeds the risks included in choosing to use this Pokemon over some hypothetical alternative for any possible purpose, and that Quiver Dance and Dragon Dance are ideal ways to do just that. This argument is especially considering every other aspect of this CAP's design, from all three Abilities individually, to all three Abilities in relation to one another, to our chosen stats, all the way back to our chosen typing profile.

    First of all, those of us arguing for the inclusion of Quiver Dance look around OU and see a handful Pokemon roaming around the base 94 Speed tier, lurking in the shadows and threatening (with stats, typing, and/or consistency) to outclass Aurumoth regardless of which direction we steer its movepool; there is Hydreigon (who has higher Speed, more/better resistances, instant recovery, and superior coverage), Genesect (who has nearly the exact same coverage as CAP, only with more reliability, higher Speed, Download, and better defensive typing), Gliscor (who plays a good bulky pivot with Spikes immunity, SR neutrality, reliable turn-by-turn healing, and even U-turn access), Haxorus/Salamence (they both have superior Speed and power, better STABs to use in conjunction with Dragon Dance or Swords Dance, and are both more difficult to switch into), Volcarona (who has higher Speed, better stats and typing for Quiver Dance, and better stats and typing for general sweeping), Rotom-W (who has better Special bulk and, of course, typing, for a Burn-spreading pivot, along with Volt Switch and weather-abusing STABs), and you see where I'm going with this.

    Secondly, we look around OU and see another, much larger handful of Pokemon who outspeed and O-2HKO Aurumoth without any boosts whatsoever. I made a non-exhaustive list and posted it and then quoted the list again in a separate post, so I won't quote it again, but suffice it to say that the list is too damn long and underscores an enormous problem with Moth sets that don't utilize Speed boosts of any sort: for the most part, if it can outrun Aurumoth, it can beat Aurumoth one-on-one (factoring in Stealth Rock). This includes almost everything from regular Jolteon to Scarf Politoed to Scarf Genesect to Band Genesect to MoxieMence to all of Rain offense and most of Sand or Sun offense. It includes things like un-boosted Timid Latias's 4 SpA Dragon Pulse (2HKO), Timid Choice Scarf Latios's Draco Meteor (which does even 64% - 75.6% to Aurumoth through an uninvested +1 SpD), and even Scizor, whose Bullet Punch 2HKOs 252/4 Aurumoth through Weak Armor (let's not talk about U-turn...). Our CAP's only way out of this is to catch checks on the switch with a coverage move (lolverheat) or with Glare/Will-o-Wisp (and then gtfo), which is fine to do, but it has nothing to do with the concept that it doesn't have to do with general strategy. Still, shoehorning its niche towards more tankish roles is something best left to tankish Pokemon, wouldn't you think?

    Thirdly, we look at our CAP itself and see weaknesses to Bug, Dark, Fire, Flying, Ghost, and Rock attacks, poorly compensated for by resistances to Fighting, Grass, Ground, and Psychic attacks. Of the resistances, only Fighting and Ground are reliable or common (and they are common, I'll say that, but there are still only two of them), and yet they are still eclipsed by the abundance of U-turns, Pursuits, Crunches, Fire Blasts, Flamethrowers, Hurricanes, Shadow Balls, and Stone Edges being thrown about the OU metagame. Adding to those the neutral STABs and coverage attacks that can take enormous chunks out of CAP (unless they are Fighting/Grass/Ground/Psychic-type, and even some that are), the 25% of HP lost to SR or even more to Spikes/Toxic Spikes, and the general power creep of BW2, we don't see Aurumoth competing well as a tank or pivot or whatever the "QD opposition" sees in this CAP. This thing isn't Cresselia, and even so, Cresselia sucks!

    Those are the "risks" we've taken on, for every Aurumoth set there will ever be, for sure. So yes, Quiver dance does fit the concept by its own terms, as it actually directly rewards the user for strategic use of Aurumoth's limited resources, in spite of its faults. In my opinion, we have a trio of general risks that should not necessarily stretch all the way through the movepool stage and muddle Aurumoth's position in the metagame. What we are looking for is something that is "very risky to play, but very rewarding when played correctly," not "very risky to play, but able to get a surprise Burn on Genesect switch-ins." What I hope to do with Quiver Dance is establish sets that can outperform similar sets from other Pokemon (even Volcarona), but only if CAP's chosen Abilities, which are tricky to take advantage of, are taken advantage of. That is my interpretation of the concept as it has played out, and I believe Quiver Dance fulfills this interpretation with all three Abilities; whether it's outpacing Scarf Terrakion by smartly switching Weak Armor Moth into Close Combat and Dancing on the switch so it can't come back in to revenge two turns later, committing to a Dragonite Illusion by eating Stealth Rock in order to lure Mamoswine out (possibly to clear the way or poke holes for a Dragonite sweep?), or blasting shit indiscriminately (after the only free turn you'll get) with Megahorn/Thunder/Blizzard/Focus Blast and your balls out and gladly accepting all the Hurricanes and Grasswhistles that come your way. Those are rewards. Those are very rewarding rewards. They are also rewards that would be way less rewarding with a Pokemon stuck at 94 Speed with hardly a resistance in sight and only a sparse helping of predictable coverage and status moves. I understand that Aurumoth will not "be terrible" without Quiver Dance, but I would like to challenge the people arguing that CAP is just fine without it (or Dragon Dance) to come out with a concrete list of rewards this Pokemon apparently already has that would: a) render Quiver Dance irrelevant to the concept, b) render Quiver Dance broken, and/or c) make Aurumoth better at any one thing than any other single OU Pokemon, even if it's just a theorymon'd argument. I'd also like to see anything but WoW/Glare/[generic Illusion-is-uber panic attack] as responses, because throwing around status is a fairly agreed-upon safe tactic (sort of like Substitute, but I will give up that fight), and manufacturing successful Illusions, I predict, is going to be just as much a headache as an advantage, especially when you're counting on fooling your opponent in order to boost and they KO or status you instead.

    There that's my piece.
  21. Project_Mars

    Project_Mars

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    132
    I dont get any of the issues with dragon dance to be honest. It doesnt boost any defenses and interacts in a potentially cool way with weak armor, which would make it more priority weak ya know. Allow Dragon Dance seems fairly easy.

    Quiver dance is a little easier to see the issues with, however auramoth has 60 base special defense. The only argument I can see against it is the fact that auramoth has illusion, which will potentially give it a great chance to set up. This would be a great example of reward though, since it would be a lot more resilient after the boost, but if the opponent decides to test if your big scary terrakion is actually a frail moth, then you are facing a potential heavy blow. I can not really see much reason to not allow Quiver Dance.

    On that note: is Auramoth meant to be a sweeper only or primarily. The reason why I am asking is because I would actually like to see a support mon with illusion, and Aromatherapy/Heal Bell allowed. That said, doing that would place a great deal of emphasis on Illusion, imo, and not as much emphasis on the fact that Auramoth is supposed to be a fairly high risk/high reward 'mon. On that note one could argue that making it unpredictable could tie in a bit with that theme, because it makes it more ambiguous as to what it will be when you see it in team preview. I suppose it would depend on the merits of No Guard WoW/Glare and other support options, however, since using trying to use illusion to force a switch just to cure all your 'mons seems fairly good.

    Basically this CAP is giving me ideas on how Zoroark is a huge letdown because Illusion seems like it has SO much potential if the user has a more diverse moveset AND a viable second ability, just to keep the opponent guessing as to what is gonna get sent out. If all else fails then i have an idea what to try to submit for the next CAP.
  22. nyttyn

    nyttyn Ribbit!
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    943
    94 speed.

    I want you to focus on that before anything else. Aurumoth's speed is 94. Lower then every single "speedy" offensive pokemon in the OU metagame. It is also OHKO'd/2HKO'd by every offensive threat that outspeeds it. At the same time, it has some pretty good physical bulk, meh special bulk, and great attacking stats. It has Illusion, No Guard, and Weak Armor, a pretty good thresome of abilities. It has Bug/Psychic STABs, which offer it almost unresisted coverage but at the same time leaves it taking 1/4th of its HP every switchin on stealth rock, leaves it vulnerable to spikes and toxic spikes, leaves it vulnerable to hail and sand passive damage, leaves it vulnerable to all four status conditions, and while it gives a few nifty resistances, it also gives a few obnoxious weaknesses. This is aurumoth so far - the only thing left competitively is to give it a set of moves to use. The question right now is - How much of a movepool do we have to give for it to be viable?

    As it stands, the move we are currently debating giving it is Quiver Dance, a setup move that gives +1 SpAtk, + 1 SpDef, and +1 Spe, boosting Aurumoth's special side and speed at the same time while patching up its low special defense. There are arguments of how this move would be too much, that Aururmoth needs risk, that Quiver Dance is unrisky. Yet at the same time there are also arguments that Aurumoth simply won't have enough offensive power to survive without it. I fall into the later camp.

    First, let's cover why having variety in movepool won't be enough to save Aurumoth - It doesn't have the stats or typing, firstly (packing a rather abysmal overall bulk compared to many other popular supporters), and secondly, sub-par sets really don't cut it in OU anymore. Ferrothorn has the typing, moves, and barely the stats to go offensive, sure, but does it? No, because the Defensive variant is just so much better. It's basically the same situation with Aurumoth - Sure, hypothetically it could use a Illusion based set, but it will always be inferior to better supporters. Surprise value in a Meta where teamslots are so precious that a enemy will typically see through it the second they see your team really doesn't cut it anymore.

    Secondly, lets cover the elephant in the room - Illusion. Many people are claiming that Aurumoth could easily get two QDs up thanks to Illusion's bluffing, and while I won't deny that, we have to look at what conditions are required to get two Quiver Dances from a single Illusion - Firstly, you need to have a second pokemon that is exactly 25% weak to Stealth Rock, which puts a huge burden on your team and almost mandates a Rapid Spinner. Secondly, that pokemon needs to be weak to every single status condition, which again puts a burden on your team. Thirdly, that pokemon needs to be able to force many other pokemon out by simply existing on the field, cutting down the margin even smaller. Fourthly, that pokemon has to take damage from Spikes and Poison Spikes as well as Stealth Rock, putting a even huger burden on your team and cutting down the selection of pokemon as a viable illusion candidate even further. Fifthly, this pokemon needs to mandate a counter being brought in that can't obliterate +1/+1/+1 Aurumoth, which narrows the list even further. Sixthly, unlike other boosting moves that might be able to BS being another pokemon, Quiver Dance gives up the jig then and there, which means you can get a second one off at best before a counter comes in and forces you to stop boosting. On top of all of this, Illusion only works once, you have to come in without being hit, and if you only have one viable illusion candidate then it becomes a roughly 50/50 guessing game for your opponent, who may just decide to call your bluff. All in all, if you have to dedicate that much to making it happen, which is a extraordinary amount of risk and effort and only works once per match, you deserve those two quiver dances, since you practically have to build your team around making it happen.

    Thirdly, even at +1 Speed, Aurumoth is open to being revenge killed by anything packing a Choice Scarf, as literally every single common scarfer in OU outspeeeds Aurumoth and has a move that can OHKO it. Even if it manages to get higher, as shown earlier in the thread it's still hugely open to priority.

    Fourthly, Aurumoth, as covered before, is vulnerable to all sources of passive damage, in addition to taking 25% from Stealth Rock. This really limits how often it can come in and how long it can sweep for if it chooses to use a Life Orb, which will have to happen as Aurumoth needs as much power it can get to pull off a sweep.

    Fifthly, Quiver Dance eats a turn. This is huge. The opponent could kill you in that time frame, switch into something that forces you out, set up alongside you and then proceed to kill you, all sorts of nasty things. A turn in the B/W2 Meta is a precious resource, and even wrong move could make you lose the momentum, forcing you to fight on the defensive, which in pokemon is a very, very bad thing as we all know.

    So, in light of all of this, can we really say that Quiver Dance is not risky? No, we cannot, as we can see there are a host of issues to overcome before you can get it off. As for why we need Quiver Dance vs say, Tail Glow? Remember when I said earlier about the 94 Speed and how Aurumoth is OHKO'd by anything faster then it that's an offensive threat? It holds doubly true here. Spending two turns and a lot of effort to get a single kill just simply doesn't cut it in the B/W 2 Meta when you could be using pokemon who can get the job done in one without setup on a far larger range of targets.
  23. Legend13

    Legend13

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2012
    Messages:
    85
    I cannot believe i was worried about Quiver Dance; with such low SPD, the extra boost will not do anything. Because of this, Quiver Dance can be likened to a special version of Dragon Dance. Because Aurumoth just misses the 100 speed benchmark (it only has 94), it needs the speed boost, or a revenge killer won't even need a scarf to outspeed Aurumoth. Allow Dragon Dance and Quiver Dance.
    Let's look at this very carefully; Aurumoth (as it stands right now), with it's extensive movepool, is weak. It's stats are simply too low to sweep (especially it's speed). Therefore, Dragon Dance and Quiver Dance are not overpowered (at least on Aurumoth). If Aurumoth doesn't get these moves, we'd be better off using Volcarona for special sweeping.

    For substitute;
    In order to fulfill this, we must Allow Substitute to see how it impacts this capmon.
  24. CiteAndPrune

    CiteAndPrune

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    203
    Guess I should elaborate some more while the matter isn't settled yet, for what it's worth.

    I believe that back in the stat stage, when we decided on base 94 speed, we positively resigned ourselves to simple facts the mechanics impose us, like: +1 Speed Aurumoth (whether from Weak Armor, a boosting move or the odd Choice Scarf) will be outspeed by +1 base 95 and above Pokemon. That's a big group out there.

    I don't know about others but my line of thinking from that point on wasn't 'how to squeeze more than +1 Speed out of this thing?' Instead, I thought 'how does a slower AND frail Pokemon defeat faster threats that can OHKO it?'

    There is a variety of ways. OHKOing them on the switch is one way. Hitting them with status is another (paralysis on the switch cripples a Scarfer for the rest of the match, barring a cleric and that costs a turn, too). Running Agility to boost +2 is also possible (with No Guard special moves and maybe Life Orb to hit harder). Weak Armor + Dragon Dance already enable +2 with boosted offenses if you want them.

    I know Aurumoth has all those typing weaknesses, especially Stealth Rock. But Volcarona has an even worse weakness to passive damage as far as its typing is concerned. It teaches us that you bring a team to the game. Maybe you'll need not one but two spinners, for example. Or maybe you'll start with Aurumoth first so the enemy has to try to KO it and loses that precious turn to set up Stealth Rock. Maybe you can Baton Pass it a Substitute, or an Agility, or heal it with Wish - there's so many other ways to do it.


    Giving Aurumoth Quiver Dance would just make it a worse Volcarona. Giving Aurumoth's Tail Glow + Glare + 2 attacks set a chance would redefine OU, is what I believe (or even the synergy with other, more bulky Pokemon that can spread paralysis in preparation for its sweep, letting it run Tail Glow + 3 attacks). You don't see pure power boosting in OU so much anymore - because it's risky and requires more work setting up than just "1-2 uses of DD/QD and gg". But if we don't give Aurumoth the obvious route to success I'm confident it will find ways we haven't foreseen, and in doing so teach us something new than what we know already, about QD making good sweepers.


    ........... meh this doesn't do justice to what I have in mind. But this post is long enough as it is - maybe others can convey this better than me. Still, I'm glad that we're having this discussion (about QD, and about Substitute). It's this that makes CAP so worth it.

    EDIT: Thank God for that post, jas. I support what you said 100%. Good to have CAP members like you to argue for anti-QD.
  25. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    2,969
    So, I want to start out the same way nyttyn did here:

    94 Speed.

    Yes that is right, "only" 94 speed. Only faster than nearly 55% of OU, and 100% of unboosted OU after a very easily obtainable boost. The only "flaw" with this speed is that there exist Pokemon that are faster. That is not a flaw, that is just a fact. Yes, it can be a problem as scarfers can revenge us even after a boost. But really, is that a actually a problem? We decided we wanted no counters, yes, but to think that having no one revenge kill us is necessary is removing checks as well. We do not want that and we do not need that. The only way that this would even be a problem at all though is if we pigeonhole ourselves into the "fast offensive sweeper" role. We have to remember that our stats do not force any such thing. Sure, our typing is not conducive to defensive sets, but that does not mean we lack any bulk or that we are forced to run 0/0/0 in our defenses.

    Lets look at the actual stat. Any set counting on a boost has little reason to ever fully invest in speed. With 160 EVs and a neutral nature, you outspeed the entire unboosted metagame at +1. With Timid and 196 EVs, you outspeed Choice Scarf Rotom at +1, the fastest common scarfer below you. And in the very likely case that you can achieve 2 speed boosts, only 156 EVs and a neutral nature are needed to beat everyone up to Choice Scarf Latias, the fastest scarfer that anyone will ever likely run. All of these leave many EVs left over to invest in Aurumoths bulk. And let us remember that while many Quiver Dance supporters seem to claim that our bulk is sub-par and not worth anything, in actuality, we have better physical bulk than Gliscor, and our special bulk, while certainly not amazing by any means, is by no means worthless. And, after a boost from Quiver Dance, that mediocre special defence is now on par with its amazing physical bulk, and we can invest some in bulk without sacrificing our boosted speed tier.

    As you can see from all of the above, running Quiver Dance is an incredibly safe option. Even among the common scarfers who can outspeed you at +1, who can actually KO you? Some of them? Sure. However, not as many as you might first think. Common Scarf Genesect for example has a 0% chance to OHKO you with +1 SpD unless it carries Bug Buzz, killing its own coverage. Sending in Gene is not a way to stop a sweep, it is a way to guarantee that the opponent can set up another boost if they so choose.

    However, safeness is only relative. We need to compare this to other sets. Now, simply put, any non QD set will not be boosting SpD, so Gene and other special scarfers can revenge. As such, Quiver Dance is strictly superior to other boosting moves in that way. Compared to other set up moves, the while Quiver Dance does not provide the power of something like Tail Glow, by not having a speed boost, the ability to actually use that boost is greatly diminished. Now, I am not saying this is a bad thing. In fact, I think the power of a Tail Glow set is more than enough for our purposes. However, in comparison to Quiver Dance, the QD set is once again strictly superior. It can take out more threats, and is harder to beat. There is very little reason to use Tail Glow when Quiver Dance is around. But what about Physical sets? We have more Attack than SpA, so won't those have use too? If there is anything that we should have learned from Pokemon like Lucario and our first CAP, Syclant, it is that a higher stat does not mean it will get used. Sure, a powerful STAB megahorn is very nice, but other than increased ability to beat Tyranitar in one hit, what does it really give you? Nothing. You have less accurate, less powerful secondary STAB, and fewer useful coverage options. Quiver Dance sets provide more power, more reliability, more bulk and more versatility than any physical set could possibly provide. Even Dragon Dance pales in comparison when you consider the all the benefits that special attacking provide it. Once again, Quiver Dance is strictly superior.

    Now I kept using those same words over and over again for a reason. "Strictly Superior". One of the conditions you had asked me to prove regarding Quiver Dance is that is would result in "the emergence of a standard, reliable set". No matter what angle you look at it, Quiver Dance would do this. Now I'm not saying that there will be 4 moves and 1 EV spread every Aurumoth would run. Indeed, the plethora of coverage options we have means that there could be many possible moves you could throw in there. However, the overall structure of every good set would be the same. And what is worse, these sets have very little that they would even teach us about risk.

    Why? Volcarona exists. When you think of risky Pokemon in OU, Volcarona is one of the first that comes to mind. A awful typing offensively and defensively with mediocre at best coverage, made up for by great offenses and Quiver Dance. With Quiver Dance, Aurumoth would just be a less risky Volcarona at best. At worst, it would be strictly outclassed. Either way, it is not showing us anything we don't know. We are less risky that Volcarona due to our better offensive and defensive typing, better bulk on the side that is not being boosted, and significantly better coverage movepool. At the same time, we are both weaker and slower, providing us with less reward. For a concept that is all about risk, it seems odd that we would strive to make a Pokemon whose best possible set could only ever be seen as a less risky version of something we already know all about.

    Now, the last thing I want to address here is simply the overall reliability of using Quiver Dance. Some QD supporters have stated how Quiver Dance is by no means a guarantee, and that it will be a chore to get it up. However, lets look at this realistically: over 50% of OU is slower than you, and plenty of those Pokemon cannot do to much to you. In addition, 2 of our three abilities make setting up boosts a breeze. With Weak Armor, the majority of the pokemon you would switch into provide you with a boost. Sure, they could stay in and attack you, but in doing so they risk being outsped and KOd. Boosting on switches is a key part of Pokemon. All boosters do it. This is not some new uncharted territory. This is something OU pokemon do every day. On the other hand, we also have Illusion. And speaking of forcing switching, this ability is the king of that. Not only can it force one, but when that first one turns out bad, it has the potential to force two. Yes, it is not a something you can pull of every time, but it is not actually difficult. If my experiences with Zoroark have taught me anything, it is that most people are bad at using Illusion. However for those who know how to use it well, there is no ability more powerful or more versatile. In the hands of a skilled player, grabbing a boost with Illusion requires no effort at all. And if that last sentence tells you anything it is that using Illusion to grab boost is not a risky task. Indeed, it is overwhelmingly safe. Having a safe method to grab a risky boost such as tail glow could be an interesting concept and one that itself could work well in OU, but grabbing a Quiver Dance would always be the strictly superior option, and doing that does not show risk in any way whatsoever.

    So, when you look at the big picture, what do you get? With Quiver Dance, you get an incredibly safe way to grab incredibly safe boosts on a set which strictly outclasses all other sets, resulting in a Pokemon that is a safer version of one that already exists. You asked me to prove how Quiver Dance goes against the concept. This is how. It is plain as day. There is nothing that would be risky about an Aurumoth with Quiver Dance. The only other thing it has the potential to be other than safe is outclassed at its best set. Nothing that can come of it would be positive. Nothing that can come of it will help the concept. And nothing that can come of it is needed for Aurumoth to be viable.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)