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CAP 16 CAP 5 - Concept Submissions

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Feb 4, 2013.

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  1. Aerophoenix

    Aerophoenix

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    I have to admit this type of thing has always intrigued me, especially since some weather abusers (real and theoretical) are often the best counters of the weather they abuse. Heatran can use the Sun very well, but can often be a full stop to Sun teams too. I feel like I don't need to mention so many Rain abusers, who often carry hard-hitting Hydro Pumps and Thunders and usually hate taking those to the face to boot. Or even Ferrothorn in Rain. If you look at theoretical Pokemon, a different Dragon/Water than Kingdra could serve similar roles as it, countering and also abusing Rain; same with, say, a Grass/Fire type in Sun.

    I'm not sure if what I said is the entire intention of this concept, but it sure in an interesting side note.
  2. zyrefredric

    zyrefredric

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    No mention of BST, so I'm hoping my submission's legal.


    Name: Small But Terrible

    General Description: A Pokemon that is successful in OU despite very low base stat total (BST).

    Justification: We all know that base stat total alone does not make the Pokemon. It can't reliably serve as a measure of a Pokemon's viability in OU. Unfortunately, many players, whether conciously or unconciously, still associate BST with a Pokemon's strength. For example, Kyurem-B (BST: 700) surpasses all of OU, and many people were apprehensive in bringing it down at first. Now it fits right in. I'd say this mentality reaches even CAP, as many of them were nearing or even going beyond the highest BST for a nonlegendary, 555. This concept would make a Pokemon that would aboish this faulty thinking once and for all.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    • What is the lowest reasonable BST a Pokemon can have while still being relevant to OU?
    • Given the limitation of a low BST, can it be successful with an average stat distribution or must it have one or two stats that are very high at the expense of the other stats?
    • If the latter in the above question is true, which stat/s must be favored for a low BST Pokemon to be successful?
    • Does a low BST Pokemon need a very powerful ability to compensate? If yes, which abilities are most effective despite low BST?
    • In which would a low BST Pokemon be more successful in: an offensive, defensive, or support role?

    Explanation: CAP4 gave us Aurumoth, a 600 BST legendary bug Pokemon. That is the highest BST ever to be given in CAP history. There is no better time than to make the CAP that would (possibly) have the lowest BST. The current title holder is Kitsunoh with a BST of 513. I think we can do way better than that. I'm talking more of the likes of Breloom (460), Dugtrio (405), Sableye (380), or even Smeargle (205), all of which were able to carve their respective niche with a precise combination of stat spread distribution, typing, abilities and moves.
  3. Yarnus of Bethany

    Yarnus of Bethany

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    There really needs to be more discussion and fewer submissions. Here's my take on these concepts.

    Heart of Stall
    Seems like a good idea, but very difficult. For stall to become viable, this one mon would need to counteract all the boosts to hyper offense that came in the 5th gen. How can it do this without becoming overpowered?

    Climate Control
    Way too specific; given that most of the CAP community (not me, though) dislikes custom abilities, Arena Trap is the only option, which isn't allowed. Maybe if you took out trapper from the general description and only left it in Explanation? In any case, it doesn't seem like it could teach us much besides seeing "What would happen if weather was weaker?", in which case a more general concept would work here.

    The Big Dipper
    I like this one: It's general, informative, and yet not vague. Such a nice change from the last few concepts in BW.

    Number Cruncher
    Whoa! This one will definately get my full support. It has all the positive details of the above, but one extra, important feature: IT'S CREATIVE! There's nothing more boring than reading through 10 different submissions with pretty much the exact same point. None of the previous Cap projects have deadly with something like this, and the questions it can answer are fundamental to Pokemon, not BW2 OU, a metagame that will soon be gone.

    Chill Pill:
    Like HeartOfStall, but even more difficult and vague. I like the idea more, though.

    Compact movepool:
    Another good submission I would be glad to see on CAP5.

    Type Equalizer:
    A concept I've been hoping for ever since I joined. Pokemon really needs more balance in the type department. Even if the project fails, we could see which types are good due to the type chart, and which are only good because of the metagame/users.

    Ability Matchmaker: see Cyclohm

    Priority Abuser:
    A few problems with this one: it mandates Steel/Ghost typing, all priority moves, and doesn't have very much potential to teach. I think you can fix it, though. Just find out what you're trying to figure ot about priority, and focus your submission on that.

    Weather Balancer
    Easily the best of all the weather-based: it has broad questions and specific goals. I'd vote for this one.

    I'm tired; I'll finish later. Hope i'm not ninja'd.
  4. Solstice

    Solstice

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    Name: Leading the Charge

    General Description: A Pokemon that is designed to work primarily in a lead position despite Team Preview.

    Justification: Leads are dead, Team Preview saw to that at the dawning of Gen V. Now that we have more mutable options in terms of how we begin our games and can view the opposing player’s Pokemon, having a set lead is difficult. However if the concept functions properly and can reliably fulfill a lead role it would change how Team Preview is viewed and rearrange how we set-up our early game. The leads in Gen IV fulfilled a number of purposes, they would get up entry hazards early, throw up screens, get some early game damage in, etc. This is more difficult than ever before and will pose a difficult but interesting concept.

    Questions to be Answered:

    • Does Cap V create a metagame in which a set lead counter is necessary?
    • How do leads act differently from Gen IV to Gen V because of Team Preview?
    • What are the most important roles for a lead to fulfill?
    • How does the possibility of facing a Pokemon with Magic Bounce change how we build leads? Is the entry hazard lead still viable?
    • Many leads are now weather starters, how does Cap V fair against these Pokemon?
    Explanation: I remember when I was first getting into competitive Pokemon in early Gen IV and I loved using an Aerodactyl lead over WiFi. Leads used to be such an important part of the game because they were the absolute foundation of early game. Azelf, Metagross, Infernape, all these Pokemon that used to shine in a lead role have had that taken away from them, especially Azelf. I want this Cap to revitalize the lead metagame. It would help us explore a lot about how Team Preview affects our perceptions of the opponent. Having a dedicated lead Pokemon shows that we can have a strong early game despite the opponent, and if they don’t have a clear counter we’re at an immediate advantage. Having counters to Cap 5 will recreate the lead metagame because your dedicated counter is your lead, even if I don’t have Cap 5.
  5. DarkSlay

    DarkSlay This Wouldn't Have Happened In Romney's Smogon
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    Re-submitting my proposal from CAP4. Seems to fit the direction we want to go in for CAP5 very well.
  6. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Absolutely agreeing that we need to discuss the concepts, so here are some of my opinions:

    Rhys DeAnno's The Heart of Stall: Yeah this is a great concept. I can't stand how overwhelmingly offensive the OU metagame is at the moment. It's relatively realistic, and brings a very positive impact to the metagame if done well. However, I do wonder if it is as interesting as some of the others. Maybe I'm just being silly idk. GatoDelFuego's concept is basically the same as this, with a broader definition that doesn't necessarily require full stall. Ultimately I think trying to limit the pokemon to full stall is more challenging and interesting.

    Deck Knight's Climate Control: Whilst I like both your ultimate aim, and your name, I don't think this is remotely possible, and might not have the desired effect even then. I'd hate to see weather wars determined entirely by who had a CAP5, or who managed to double switch their CAP5 into the opposing weather inducer first. That might just make weather even more annoying.

    Yilx's The Big Dipper: I think that pokemon like this already exist. E.g look at voltturners, zoroark, stallbreakers like gen 4 Gliscor. Maybe I'm not quite understanding what you mean. Is there any kind of example you could give of something like this? Seems a bit vague at the moment. Oh and also I don't the metagame needs any more wallbreakers lol.

    srk1214's Number Cruncher
    : As much as I thought this concept looked great at first glance, I'm really not sure what this actually entails in the end. I mean, the stage where the numbers get decided is right at the end of the process. Unless I'm missing something, or you could suggest some kind of initial direction, I think we'll just have no idea what we're doing.

    rayquaza's Compact Movepool: This is sort of similar to the last one, in that we decide the movepool at a very late stage, and until then we will probably have no direction. Also, I don't think this is very much of a challenge (not that a concept necessarily needs to be).

    Well that's the first few out of the way. I hope I don't seem overly critical; I'm actually really quite pleased with the general standard of concepts, especially in relation to last time.
  7. QuimicVital

    QuimicVital

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    Name: Legacy

    General Description: A Pokémon that leaves a perfect path for a select group of sweepers quickly, not affected much by conditions. However, it should be rendered useless easily after doing its job, to make it a on-time-use.

    Justification: A one-time-use resort set up for your sweeper to wreak havoc, basically. There is't anything of this kind, and it's got the potential to change the metagame, adding to the list of things to watch out for.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    How much did the sweeper abuse the "legacy"?
    Did this Pokémon make Stall more used, or did it do the exact oposite?
    Did this Pokémon turn into a "1-trick-predictable-mon"?
    Was there any way to counter this Pokémon's role? If so, did its usage burst all of a sudden?
    Was the sweep caused by the "legacy" game-changing?
    Did this Pokémon rely on anything in particular to fulfill its role?
    Was there any other impact in the matagame?

    Explanation: The concept should be somewhat easy to explain. I'd say this guy would be a Baton Passer or a bulky-Pokémon-destroyer, maybe something else, but that escapes me. It's something that can be applied in many different ways, with many different moves, abilities, items, typing being able to fulfill this one way or another, though we should strive for the most effective one. However, I can't think of many ways that wouldn't make this at least slightly OP'd, but I'm sure the community will manage to work around it.
  8. Aerophoenix

    Aerophoenix

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    Here's my feelings on some of the submissions thus far.

    The Heart of Stall: Now, everyone's said they love this idea so far, but I want to throw in a different view. I still like this idea a but, but it might be best seen as an approach to defining how a defensive/support Pokemon can be made so that Stall can use it better than Offense. Or, what is it that makes a Pokemon fit better in Stall, Offense, or Balanced teams? What does each need its members to bring to the table, and what does each not want? That said, this one might be difficult to make, since support/defensive Pokemon can have a variety of uses. But some CAPs that fail at their concept give us greater insight into their purpose than a success might've.

    Climate Control: This could be neat, but I'm not sure what we'd learn from it (or what, rather, we're setting out to learn). The weather wars are so important to win for a weather team that I just feel like this would be seen on almost any weather team. What are we trying to learn about the metagame as a whole from this?

    The Big Dipper: Neat, but very, very general. Learning about what defines a core is a fantastic goal, though. It might be best to pick a core (or set of similar cores), or a type of core, like "Offensive" or "FWG". Otherwise I feel this could either lose focus quickly, or because a standard "annoyer" support Pokemon.

    Number Cruncher: Math is behind everything in this game, so this one's really admirable. While the most obvious numbers are crunched at the end of CAP design, we have mathematical analyses about what is a "good" type or ability or immunity and such. I think the only issue is that without custom stuff, I'm not sure how eliminating/controlling some number-altering parts is possible. But even if we couldn't figure that out, it'd at least be a noble failure.

    Chill Pill: Sort of a more focused version of Heart of Stall that I think would work a little better. I think we could look back at slower metagames (ADV or, God forbid, GSC) and figure out what made them that way, and how one CAP might be able to try to bring that back. That said, I'm not sure if this could single-handedly meet this objective, and it also feels like it's creeping a little close to CAP 1's goal of understanding and controlling momentum.

    Compact Movepool: I have almost nothing to adjust here. It's a great idea in which we try to learn about what simply defines movepools as we know it. What causes "four moveslot symdrome?" What are the truly amazing moves that make for a great movepool on a Pokemon? How can typing, ability and stats affect the viability of a movepool. Plus, as stated in the post, it does a nice contract to CAP 4.

    More later if I have time.
  9. ReddyGo

    ReddyGo

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    Name: The Core Issues

    General Description: A Pokémon that will work in tandem with either one or two other Pokemon to create an overlap of weaknesses that is difficult to overcome by pure offense. Semi-related to the Voodoom CAP of Gen IV, but maybe expanded to a three Pokemon or and actually successfully done.

    Justification: A lot of people are trying to take measures to slow down the speed of the metagame, to use "Stall" to counteract the hyperspeed of the metagame. This concept takes that idea and narrows it a little to focus on a method of doing so.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    What makes a perfect core/pair?
    How does this compare to the standard FWG core that has been a backbone of Pokemon since its creation?
    How important are BST/Ability/Movepool in creating a perfect core/duo or is it really just reliant on typing?
    What steps need to be taken to ensure that this Pokemon stays a part of its core and does not end up pairing better with other Pokemon and lose its concept (similar to what happened to Voodoom)?
    How will this Pokemon stand without its core?
    What Counters will there be to this core/duo and how glaring will they be?
    Will this core/duo need to be hazard resistant/have Rapid Spin or will another member of the team need to be dedicated?
    How will creating a Defensive core affect the speed of the metagame and help alleviate the "Hyper-Offense" problem?

    Explanation: Does anyone else remember when the anti-weather core of Heatran/Roserade/Gastrodon jumped on the scene and allowed its creator to win the Smogon tournament? Or when the Umbreon/Weezing, one of my personal favorites, pair from Gen IV UU popped out of no where and was suddenly a defensive threat? Or even the classic Blissey/Skarmory? This concept aims to learn the way that Pokemon can be made to synergize so perfectly and aim to create a similar duo/trio.
  10. Delta Nite

    Delta Nite

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    Final Submission

    I got permission from Birkal to submit his concept from CAP4. All credit belongs to him. I just barely edited it.
  11. YungHungCrock

    YungHungCrock

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    I’ll throw some support behind Rhys DeAnno’s “Heart of Stall” concept.
    Evidenced by many of the posts in the recent OU/Gen VI threads, a resurgence of stall/defensive playing is a highly desired thing right now (and therefore interesting to the users CAP wants to attract). Weather control/elimination is also a hot topic right now, and would an essential element to discuss in any new pokemon. With this in mind, I’d be interested in seeing how stall fares in regards to each weather. Can we make a poke to make sun stall viable, or boost hail stall, without pushing rain stall over the edge (already more abusers in Vaporeon, Tentacruel, etc)? Or, can we make one solid enough that weather isn’t necessary? Stall is such an underused strategy in the current OU metagame that an investigation into its effectiveness can prove very worthwhile.

    In a similar vein, I’m also interested in Yilx's idea “The Big Dipper”, henceforth known as John Mellancamp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PErUiAyVoGc). The idea of a new breed of wallbreaker without simply adding to the arms race strikes me as a good thing. An in-depth look at the viability of the arsenal of non-damaging moves we have available to us, and the stats/abilities/typing required to make them viable could open up opportunities to use these moves in new ways on established pokemon.
  12. Eagle4

    Eagle4

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    Name: Two Sides of the Same Coin

    General Description:
    A Pokemon which can use two (or more) different, possibly contrasting methods to perform the same task.

    Justification: OU, for the most part, is very predictable. You see the Pokemon, and you know how that Pokemon works, what role it performs. Countering the Pokemon is much easier, therefore. However, this Pokemon would bring something new to the metagame; it can use two differing techniques to gain the same final outcome, making it less predictable; a guessing game, if you like. Countering this Pokemon would take skill and judgement.

    Questions To Be Answered:

    • How can a Pokemon with two seperate techniques achieve the same role?
    • Will there be any Pokemon moved into OU with the introduction of this Pokemon?
    • Similarly, will any Pokemon become less prominent in OU with the introduction of this Pokemon?
    • Is there a way to successfully predict this Pokemon's strategy every time?
    • Could this Pokemon change its technique of achieving the same role midway between battling, to achieve the same effect? If so, how would this Pokemon go about doing so?
    • In certain cases, would this Pokemon be forced to change its technique? In addition, how would the opponent be able to achieve this?
    • Is using more than one technique of fulfilling the same role really unpredictable?
    Explanation: For this concept, options are broad and wide, with little regulations. This opens up a whole new avenue of different possibilities, and leads to greater discussion. The concept itself would be interesting to try out; the Pokemon, whilst performing the same intended role (An example is sweep-stopping), isn't limited in terms of the techniques it could use to go about doing so. There's really a whole variety of them which could be explored. The concept has the potential to comepletely alter the way we think about countering as a whole, as it doesn't follow the same direct-route to achieve its role.

    Predictability is another important part of this concept. This concept could alter the way we think about how each Pokemon is going to react to a different situation, how mind games will, or could be used effectively. It also challenges your opponent to guess correctly, whilst also challenging you to maintain your higher ground.
  13. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
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    The weather-related concepts seem intriguing, but ultimately I don't think that many of them will amount to much of anything. A large part of this is because there is really only one weather that may deserve the hate (rain). I don't see the purpose in trying to nerf sun, hail or even sand. This false equivalence between all of these weather conditions - simply because they are field conditions that can only be removed by each other - has gone on for too long. So regardless of the history of weather with respect to suspect tests, I don't see us learning anything of value from most of the anti-weather concepts.

    The exception is Weather Warrior. What distinguishes this one from the others is that it's not explicitly trying to make weather "the enemy". It's a realistic approach that addresses the desire to rein in a big weather (rain) while also trying to promote something else to replace it (maybe hail?). IMO it subsumes the hail concepts of the past while giving the weather angle something to chew on other than rawr hatred. It's really versatile and I already have ideas as to how this concept might come about.

    The Heart of Stall, Chill Pill and Offense Breaker are really similar and I see both giving the same end result. I'm not sure of what that end result would be, though.

    Compact Movepool is interesting. It's a focused twist on a commonly submitted concept (versatility), with more direction. However, considering the movepool is done at the end, I'm not entirely sure of how this could work out in the process. I can't help but think we'll need a powerful, but fitting, ability at the very least.

    The Big Dipper is kind of cool. There's so much focus on POWER in theorymon that people often forget the awesome power of support moves and abilities in shutting down defensive threats. Taunt, Leech Seed, maybe even just threatening offensive setup but not being overall good at it.

    Lead and Utility Counter concepts are also cool, as they were before. I used to dislike the lead idea, as I thought it placed too much focus on TEAM PREVIEW and I don't like building concepts based purely on hype. That said, I'd say it's more relevant now.
  14. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
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    While my submission draws some inspiration from CAP 1, I believe the fundamental difference to be how a team takes advantage of the momentum. Cap 1 was designed to return momentum to your side, if I understand correctly, while my idea is to slow the game down for both players somehow, while it's up o th rest of the team o capitalize in the loss of momentum.

    As an example, let's say your opponent has boosted up to +6 with a dragonite. You bring in your scarfed ditto to revenge, returning offensive momentum to your side. However, this still results in increased momentum in general. A Pokemon like quagsire can one in and straight up reduce the momentum of the game. Quagsire doesn't really have an advantage vs a dragonite, only that it has lowed down the pace of the game. While I know that this ounces very stall-y and people may not appreciate this, and this concept has stall in mind, I think it would be interesting to see how offensive playstyles also appreciate a "momentum reset" on their team.


    On some other submissions, the wether control seems pretty interesting if not for the reason of having something viable outside of weather. I don't think Big Dipper really has a place in the current metagame, because defensive styles aren't really seen. Likewise, perfect nemesis and utility counter are fantastic concepts, but I'm not sure how they would fit into the current style of play.
  15. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked

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    Time to share my opinions on the first batch of concepts


    The Heart of Stall

    Stall has undoubtedly taken a step back this generation. However, the main reason for this is because when you use a stall team, you have to counter just about every pokemon, and over the generations we have gained more and more such pokemon. I don't really see this working unless we create another ferrothorn calliber defensive behemoth, and even then i dont see us learning a whole ton

    Climate Control

    This concept isn't really legal because it all but mandates the ability arena trap, but beyond that, i doubt such a pokemon would really eliminate weather wars instead of just giving weather wars a new dimension (think dugtrio).


    Big Dipper

    This concept has potential. It would be interesting to reexamine how cores work from a new perspective, and we could learn quite a bit. However, i think the concept needs a bit more clarification; are we trying to break apart offensive cores? Defensive? How many cores must our mon break up. Just a few things to consider.

    Number Cruncher

    As a Math Major, i find this concept very interesting and appealing. I would love to break down the various probabilities associated with each move in Pokemon. However, i daresay a lot of people might feel alienated by this concept as it will probably require a strong understanding of subtle game mechanics and a solid grasp on mathematic principles, which aren't very accessible. Furthermore, i feel like if we wanted to fully explore this concept we will probably have to intentionally "haxify" this pokemon which may not be something we would want to do. Still this concept has my stamp of approval

    Chill Pill

    I consider this concept to be an amazing foil to Cap 1 "momentum". It would allow us to explore the concept of tempo and pacing, which could lead to a great learning experience. That being said, i think you focused your questions a bit to much on how slow tempo helps defensive play. I would try to broaden the scope of your concept, because this is an amazing field to explore.

    Compact movepool

    The problem with this concept stems from the cap process. Movepools are done last, so what exactly are we supposed to do for the seven or eight stages leading up to the movepool stage?

    Type Equalizer

    I really dont think this is doable. Some types are flat outbad in this meta, especially those that are weak to SR. This metagame is infested with dragons and ice types still see no usage. I really don't see one pokemon can save something like ice types when the prescence of dragonite, latios, and garchomp hasn't

    Priority Abuser

    This concept is just way too specific. There are heavy movepool, typing, and ability restrictions. I'm pretty sure this pokemon will make itself. I dont like it.

    Weather Balancer

    I think this concept tries to bite off more than it can chew. It is pretty tough/ impossible to make all the weathers completely equal. A narrower focus would work better, i think.

    Mind Master

    You definitely need to go into more depth. You might have a good concept here, but i really cant be sure because it is so vague right now. I think its a fusion of psychological warfare and risky business, but i digress


    Behind Bars

    I dont see this concept going very far. Imprison is a very gimmicky move, and i can't see us learning a ton from it.

    Frostbite

    As others have mentioned, this concept relies on an intrensically unreliable game mechanic and stands to teach us little because of this.

    All Hail Hail

    Of all of the pro hail concepts i have seen, i think i like this the best. I think its chances are hurt due to general apathy towards the weather, but it is a solid concept nonetheless

    Psych Out

    Ahh, another psychological concept. My problem with these has always been the difficulty involved in testing this concept (how would you know if it worked?) but this one is as good as any in this genre.

    The perfect Gimmick

    The problem with this concept is that i dont think it will inspire a very interesting process. The pokemon you listed (wobuffet, ditto) are very simple and really won't require much discussion past concept assessment. I doubt this concept will last us the two months most other concepts will.

    Complete Focus
    We already have pokemon like this such as Volcarona and Cloyster. Not much else to say about it really.


    One timer

    This concept is pretty similar to Risky Business but a bit more specific. You need to clean up the questions section to meet concept submission guidelines for starters. I really dont see this concept going too far because the process would be pretty similar to our last cap process, i think.

    Offense breaker

    An interesting way to approach the pro- stall genre. I like this concept because it gives solid direction while still allowing for good discussion. I wonder how much stall teams would really care for this CAP though, if it doesn't contribute anything to the team beyond walling shit. Still would be a cool concept though.

    Weather Warrior

    This is an interesting spin on the weather concept, one that i personally like. It seems doable and has enough flexibility to make it interesting. It would interesting to dissect how two weathers interact with each other and how we can control that interaction. I'm all for it.

    Faustian Bargain

    In my opinion, this is not the right time to attempt this concept. It is deep and we could learn a lot, but it is very vague and would require extremely strong direction to not turn into another Risky Business. We've just gone through revamping our leadership system, and i think that we will find some kinks in our new leadership structure. This concept is just to heavy to pin on a maiden voyage, so i think we should hold off on this concept for now.
  16. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    Maybe that statement was too bold. It was intended to avoid producing a Ferrothorn 2.0, which turns out to be a considerable factor in Rain Offense teams. We just need to make sure to not give it too much options, and, more importantly, not the options offensive teams want the most. Like Stealth Rock, for example.
  17. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon Switching is a metagame trend
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    OK SO

    I was reading the OU "CAP discussion thread" and I noticed that there were two main things they wanted out of CAP5: 1) Weather control and 2) Hazard Control. The first has been beaten to death. The second?

    Name: Hazard Control

    General Description: A Pokemon who decreases the role of entry hazards in the OU Metagame.

    Justification: When OU players are asked what needs to change about OU, the two most common responses are "weather" and "hazards." Especially considering that Deoxys-D is currently being suspected in the OU tier, it is clear that hazards are a hot-button issue. This concept addresses that in such a way that instead of just intensifying the hazards meta, it aims to dampen it. The main goal is to learn what strategies can be ported over to OU (aside from just another spinner) that will similarly decrease the importance of hazards there, potentially changing the metagame permanently. Perhaps the most interesting part will be to see how, if the concept is successful, the viability of Pokemon rise and drop according to how hazards affected them!

    Questions To Be Answered:

    • Ever since GSC, hazards have been incredibly valuable in virtually every battle. How do you, with the introduction of just one Pokemon, turn them into "not worth it?" By putting too much offensive pressure on teams to get the needed free turns? By checking many hazard-weak pokemon so hazards don't need to?
    • A wide variety of Pokemon are capable of setting entry hazards; it stands to reason that this CAP should pack the heat for a lot of them but more importantly, it needs to threaten them even while not active, to put pressure on them. How can this be accomplished?
    • Perhaps hazards are more crucial for a certain playstyle than for others. What playstyles? Why? Would the metagame be best served by making these playstyles obsolete and thus removing their presence and use of hazards, or by easing the situation for these playstyles so they are not so hazard-reliant?
    • What threats suddenly become viable when the hazards meta is removed? How do teams best prepare for them?
    Explanation:

    This concept I'd been toying around with since CAP3 submissions, but it got fully fleshed out when I saw how much people in OU wanted hazards dealt with - almost as much as or more than weather, even. I've been told that my concept is a rehash of Colossoil's, but it was a good concept then, and applying it to a new generation with new threats where colossoil sucks and teaches us nothing it's a good concept now.

    If we could, I'd like to get this concept done without making another Spinner, though I don't know if that's possible. However, there are plenty of ways to get this done. One I can think of would be to threaten many common setters of Stealth Rock and Spikes, probably with a typing resistant to those hazards. Mold Breaker would be nice, since the two largest Spikers other than Deo-D have Sturdy, to one-shot things. Maybe putting pressure on the opponent so they don't get free turns to Spike? The main thing to take away is that whatever Pokemon we make to counter the hazards meta, we can't port over to OU. What we /can/ do is take lessons learned about completely discouraging the hazards meta from even existing, and use those to our advantage in the future.

    I understand completely where the detractors to my concept are coming from, so I've virtually revamped it. No longer is it about making an Espeon/Ferrothorn 2.0—its goal is now to actually reduce the importance of the hazard metagame in the tier. While most Pokemon with moves such as Rapid Spin actually /add/ to the hazard meta, its goal is to actively deter it. It should be a much more interesting concept to pursue now!
  18. SubwayJ

    SubwayJ

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2011
    Messages:
    2,754
    Name: Plain Jane

    General Description:
    Create a pokemon who makes exceptional use of the normal typing.

    Justification:
    In our current OU metagame, we have very little knowledge of the effects of the typing we call normal. Normal pokemon, normal coverage moves, normalize and other normal aspects of the game are extremely scarce. The sole normal pokemon in the tier is everyone's favourite pink blob, Blissey who doesn't use the normal type to great effect, Blissey could almost be any type and retain its position. The only normal moves commonly seen are non attacking or Extremespeed neither of which are used because they are normal typed. Following this concept we can learn what makes normal so scarce in today's OU but also we can learn how to effectively make it an asset to this certain pokemon.

    Questions To Be Answered:

    -What different instances of the type "normal" can be used in competitive play?
    -How does this "Plain Jane" make the normal type an asset whereas other pokemon scarcely use it?
    -What common hindrances to normal types must be overcome to make this pokemon effective?
    -What hidden advantages does the normal type have over others that may usually go unnoticed?
    -Is it possible to make the normal type something a little more than just "normal"?

    Explanation:
    I would first like to point out something very important, THIS CONCEPT IS NOT TO MAKE A NORMAL TYPE POKEMON. That must be stressed. This concept is to create a pokemon that very effectively utilizes the normal type. With that out of the way, I believe there are many ways we can go about this concept. The first one that comes to mind is to make a normal type pokemon who uses the typing effectively by using things such as STAB, secondary typing, ability etc. to make the normal part useful. Another way this could go is a mon who can use normal coverage as part of its main tactics, this pokemon could absolutely need its normal to be effective at all. One more possibly helpful part of the normal type is the ability scrappy, which makes nothing immune to our star type, which could help it be effective on our mon! Another way this pokemon could travel is Normalize*. This ability, is exclusively on the delcatty family, but is not explored elsewhere. Normalize could be used to give the user very good neutral coverage which would be great with high enough attacking stats or it could be used to hinder the opponent (Skill Swap/Entrainment anyone?). Our normalize ghost type could in one turn become immune to all of the opponent's attacks! Overall there are many unexplored usages of the normal typing which we can uncover for this CAP 5!

    *On the topic of normalize, while looking through the policy review thread I couldn't tell if it were banned or not because it didn't say so on the final post, however it did seem to be banned based on other things, please let me know if this is an issue :)
    --------------------------------------------------

    Cheers to everyone and here's to a great CAP 5!

  19. inanimate blob

    inanimate blob

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,453
    Name: Martyr

    General Description: A Pokémon that hampers itself in order to detriment the opposing team.

    Justification: In OU, we have a few Pokémon similar to this concept, although many of these Pokémon aren't very well used. Psycho Shift Sigilyph, Flame Orb Milotic, Shell Smash Contrary Power Split Shuckle, even Iron Ball Trick users to an extent. But how can a Pokémon with traits such as these influence the team on a large scale basis?

    Questions to be Answered:
    • Can a Pokémon that harms, but not sacrifices, itself for the good of the team be competitively viable?
    • What self-destroying moves can be beneficial to the team?
    • Can a Pokémon be designed to harm itself but actually last on the battlefield?
    • Are moves such as Ghost-type Curse and Pain Split competitively viable on Pokémon with movesets that serve other functions?

    Explanation: Now, one very key understanding about this concept - it's not aiming towards a "use Memento to hurt a Pokémon," "use Healing Wish to help your team," or even "Explode on everything." More exactly, the concept aims to create a bulkier Pokémon able to self-harm for the benefit of the team. A Pokémon that simply explodes to take out a threat does not satisfy being truly beneficial in the long run, although if the group decides it is, I'm all for it. That sounds a lot like the "Sacrifice" Pokémon, however. Same goes for a Pokémon killing itself to heal a teammate, as these are very circumstantial. But what if a Pokémon could be created to just harm itself and then pass the pain? Maybe a recoil-Pain Split Pokémon, maybe a Contrary-stat boosting (dropping)-Heart Swap Pokémon? Or maybe a Pokémon that functions better spreading status when it itself is statused, similar to a Sigilyph?

    Quark mentioned it in a later post, but I'll actually bring it up, since it is a really good example - Curse. It can force switches, destroy stalling Pokémon and walls, and cripple set-up sweepers. If we do go with Curse as an idea, consider this to be a new and improved Dusclops, or something along the sorts. Possibly more of a stalling version rather than an Eviolite-dependent trapper.
  20. inanimate blob

    inanimate blob

    Joined:
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    This sounds suspiciously like a better Forretress...or maybe an Espeon with Rapid Spin and some other hazard moves...
  21. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

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    Thanks, forestflamerunner, for that comment. Unfortunately it's one of only two constructive comments I've heard on it, and Birkal basically said the same thing about it needing a lot of direction in concept assessment :( Anyway, it's much appreciated because it really helps to know what people do and do not understand about what I'm getting at here.

    The whole reason I mentioned the route of comparing this Pokemon to an existing one was precisely to give an out if people feared that the concept would get out of hand. CAP 11 had a similar "comparison" concept and it worked really well, albeit with the wrong Pokemon. But this concept doesn't even have that pitfall to worry about because it's about being similar to a Pokemon, and not trying to have some kind of interaction with a specifically uncommon Pokemon. There's a vagueness to my concept, but it also provides a way to make the process concrete and self-balancing by picking a comparison Pokemon. I know I said my last concept would be self-balancing, too, but my official position on that is that the concept got dealt a bad hand :(

    Let's say we look at Cloyster. Its defensive typing is pretty bad, wasting a good chunk of its movepool, but... dat Shell Smash. Shell Smash is a powerful and defining trait for Cloyster. However, if we make a Pokemon that's similar to Cloyster, except (for instance) with a better typing (pure Water maybe?) and a similar movepool, well, Cloyster has a pretty interesting movepool so we might get something pretty cool out of it. Maybe give it a less... "RAWR SHELL SMASH" setup move, even.

    I'll probably edit most of this post into the explanation eventually.
  22. nyttyn

    nyttyn Neko Miko Reimu, ai shiteru
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    959
    "Let me not then die ingloriously and without a struggle, but let me first do some great thing that shall be told among men hereafter."

    Name: Last Stand

    General Description: A pokemon that excels at turning around games that would otherwise be lost causes.

    Justification: As many ways as there are that exist to dominate a game you're already winning, there are not many to turn around a game that you're losing. Especially given how easy it is to find the match completely against you, the ability to turn a match around with a Last Stand is very much desired.

    In addition, this would give us a great view at when, exactly, a game is definitevely "won." While the technical win condition is when all six of your opponent's pokemon are fainted, I'm sure we can all agree that the actual win usually happens much before that - but there's no solid consensus as to when that point occurs. Last Stand would allow us to explore the uncharted territory of "victory," and what it truly means for the game to be over.




    Questions To Be Answered:
    • Is it possible to turn around a game that's seemingly lost with a single pokemon?
    • What defines "victory" outside of the game's hard-set win condition?
    • At what point is a game "won?"
    • What is a "win condition?"
    • Is it possible to "win" when the opponent's "win condition" has been fufilled?
    • Can you "win" by simply denying your opponent's "win condition(s)," or does "victory" require more then that?
    • What kind of pokemon could turn around a game that one is losing?
    • How will that pokemon perform its job?
    Explanation: As it stands, the BW2 OU Metagame is very fast paced, and a single mistake can completely cost you the game. A pokemon like this, that can completely turn this on its head by letting you get one Last Stand, one final shot at winning, would be interesting to explore. Much of what this pokemon would potentially do is completely unknown, as there's really nothing like it in OU.

    It would also be interesting to see how having this pokemon could backfire, or how the oppertunity cost might be too much. As amazing as having a second shot at winning might be, what happens when you're winning, and need to keep it up...but this mon's your only option, and ironically costs you the game when a sweeper would've sealed the deal?

    As for how we could go about it: there are just so many options. From surprise late game sweeper options that can change the match's flow in a instant, to Lunar Dance to bring your steel back up to prevent a dragon from rampaging, a pokemon with Unaware to stop setup sweepers and phaze/eliminate them, thus getting you back in the game, trappers to catch the game-ending threat and make sure it gets phazed/dies, normal type with high speed, scrappy, and stab explosion to just flat out kill it as a last resort, or perhaps even a combination of the above to give you multiple options to get back in the game. And that's just some of how we could possibly explore this concept. It will, however, have to firmly be best at turning around a game you are already losing - so that sweeper has to have some sort of fatal flaw like poor coverage, the Lunar Dance mon would have the obvious flaw of dying, so on and so forth.
  23. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
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    Joined:
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    Name: Holder of the Dice

    General Description: This Pokemon allows a player to better control the luck involved in Pokemon.

    Justification: Pokemon is a game filled with luck, most commonly referred to as "hax." The player who best manages their luck has the upper hand no matter what other circumstances might be occurring at the time. From this Pokemon, we as a community would learn how we can control the unpredictable; to be the one who holds the dice, per se.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    • What is "hax"?
    • How do you control this "hax"?
    • How is it possible to control luck without using it?
    • What tools are available to control luck?
    • What type of luck can be controlled?

    Explanation: Well, as already explained, Pokemon is filled with luck. However, not much is done to address this. Might I just state that the goal of this concept is not to eliminate luck, nor to mess with the mechanics of luck; but simply to figure out ways of managing luck. Luck is the supreme mindgame; should you risk the inaccurate move or use the more reliable one? Balancing risk and reward is a pretty big part of this concept. It tests a player to manage luck, to use their mind, but what if, just what if, there was a Pokemon that made this easier? This Pokemon would have attributes that allow it to seize control of the luck game. It would, ideally, require some skill to use. The challenge here is in defining what exactly this Pokemon is supposed to be doing without using luck itself. We're not looking for Jirachi 2.0, we're looking for one that can reduce probabilities and eliminate anomalies, but only for the user. Everyone seems to have their own definition of hax, while this concept must create one definition to succeed. The problem Risky Business had was the lack of a central definition of risk, so hax must be defined early on should this concept be selected. While putting the finishing touches on this concept, I remembered this Smog article, which introduces some scenarios and concepts that kind of show where I'm coming from.

    What this Pokemon needs to do is employ strategies that reduce hax. Many such strategies already exist; think about Scald for a second. A Water Absorb Pokemon can manage quite well against Scald. So could the theoretical viable Water Veil Pokemon. Critical hits can be blocked with various methods as well. To put it in a more metagame-relevant perspective, think of a situation where you are facing aTerrakion. You have two choices: lose a Pokemon or go for the Hydro Pump with Starmie. Let's say you bring in Gliscor. Terrakion gets a critical hit with Stone Edge. The worst-case scenario just happened, and Terrakion has dented your only buffer against your opponent's physical attackers. All due to that 6.25% probability. This Pokemon should be able to achieve a similar concept. Another example would be playing against a Body Slam + Iron Head Jirachi; should you risk getting paralyzed to bring in the faster Pokemon? For one last example, perhaps you are facing a different Jirachi. You don't know the set, but it looks to be SubCM. Should you stay in and phaze it out with your 50% Skarmory or risk getting KOed with Thunder and getting steamrolled by your opponent's Double Dance Landorus-T. These are ways Pokemon can effect luck management in battles. Ideally, this Pokemon would not affect luck management like the Jirachi in question, but rather, it would affect hax like the Terrakion. It would have options that allow the player to force the opponent to manage their luck properly and can in turn reduce your opponent's luck. Luck is a many-faced beast, one that cannot be removed but simply tamed.
  24. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2010
    Messages:
    330
    Im going to respond to the statement comparing my concept to the one that inspired cychlom. Although they both focus on the ability stage more than anything else, i beleive the similarities stop there. Neglectled ability was a very loose concept with a singular goal of pinning a "neglected ability on a capmon. There was very little push to develop the pokemon around the ability once the ability was decided. My concept explocitly states that we want to design our pokemon around its ability, giving the concept a lot more dirrection and creating a more interesting process. Plus, the ability we choose does not even have tobe uncommon. We could very easily pick an ability like pressure for this concept and make a pressure staller or something. The only real requirement is that the ability has untapped potential.

    Yeah. Just wanted to get those differences out there
  25. Quark

    Quark

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    63
    I've read through most of the submissions, and all my ideas have basically been posted.
    I have looked at the others and I found some that I like.
    Heart of Stall
    I like stall. Just about every constructive thing has been said.
    Chill Pill
    I like how this would have potential on stall and offensive teams. I feel like this Pokemon could also be able to counter weather, as losing weather could mean a huge loss of momentum for a team.
    For the Good of the Team
    This is a cool concept, and could make using curse very dangerous. It would be interesting to see how long such a Pokemon could carry out its strategy in the current meta.
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