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CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Feb 24, 2013.

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  1. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Jun 11, 2011
    I bet Stoutland would be close to useless without Superpower, Wild Charge, Fire / Ice Fang, and Pursuit. Stoutland is effective because it has an usable Attack stat with very good coverage; since in the threat discussion it was agreed upon (I think) to not give it much coverage, your example is not overly convincing to me. We can tune the stats of CAP5 to reduce the Hidden Power viability on it quite easily, if we don't want it to be able to deal with walls.

    This is not really aimed to counter your argument, but are we really willing to give CAP a 115 Speed stat, Pursuit, and Rapid Spin? Looks really a perfect Spinning machine to me...that even ignoring the ability it's very attractive for every team based around SR removal (not necessarily Sun). I would think twice before using weird stat arrays just to grant CAP5 the ability to run LumRest, since we could end up breaking other aspects of the pokemon that have seen a lower amount of discussion. This is not against Harvest, just I'd be more careful before proposing or even considering an unconditional base 115 Spe in your examples.
  2. capefeather

    capefeather toot
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 26, 2009
    Mentioning random examples is not a good way to compare the potential power of one ability to that of another. That method is practically guaranteed to be biased in favour of, well, anything. Your examples include Jirachi, which CAP 5 may not even be able to crack well enough to avoid Body Slam paralysis, and Terrakion, which is only really an argument against Chlorophyll, and even then, the reversal happens only when sun is up. You call that a balance issue, but Chlorophyll supporters will call it incentive to get the sun up and keep it up.

    This is in stark contrast to Cloud Nine and I don't think you appreciate how much potential for side effects this ability has. It's not very helpful against sand or hail, and might even help them, all in exchange for weakening a handful of physical attackers in sand and lowering the accuracy of a super effective move. Against rain, it only really hinders offensive Water-type attacks, which, surprise surprise, is not the only thing that rain or even offensive Water-type Pokemon in particular have going for them. At least Water Absorb would help against Scald, especially from Tentacruel, one of the things Cloud Nine supposedly helps better than Water Absorb or Natural Cure do (hint: Tentacruel still has Leftovers / Black Sludge recovery). Why are we even talking about Hurricane and Thunder? Is CAP 5 switching into Hurricane? Does Thunder missing really matter?

    The biggest arguments for Cloud Nine over the other shortlisted abilities seem to reflect an overly simplistic view of how weather works. Rain and sand are versatile, and that is why they're so successful. Personally, I'd love to have a Cloud Nine Grass-type on a sand team, considering how great Grass is for helping sand-immune types and staving off rain threats. Even on a rain team, it could be a quick stop to Kingdra. I don't see that kind of incentive to use CAP 5 on a sun team, unless we go the Genesect route.
  3. erisia

    erisia nyoen wnt an popsicel
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Nov 29, 2011
    I'd just like to say that I completely agree with this fantastic post. I was going to add some more support for Flower Gift later but this post pretty much says everything I wanted to say and more, so I guess I don't have to bother? :D
  4. alexwolf

    alexwolf lurks in the shadows
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 3, 2009
    This is the first well explained argument i see against Harvest, so props for that! However, as you said, with careful decisions later we can avoid the things you mentioned from happening. For example if we give to the CAP low physical bulk, like for example 90 HP / 60 Def, then everything that attacks from the physical side with a neutral attack is going to hurt the CAP a lot and easily OHKO with super effective attacks. So my opinion is that Harvest allows the CAP to deal the best with the threats we want it to cover while offering some versatility, which is good for sun teams, and is not hard to prevent from derailing the CAP from its goal in later stages.

    Finally, i still can't get at all why you still support Cloud Nine. Abilties that don't risk derailing it from its goal, such as Natural Cure and Water Absorb, completely outclass it. Water Absorb does whatever Cloud Nine does but better, and Natural Cure fixes something that stats can't, status. As i already stated and i never saw a good answer from you, strong water hits are easy to take with good special bulk. Notice how i say good, not immense. For example with 100 HP / 100 SpD and full investment the CAP is never 2HKOed from rain boosted Hydro Pump after SR from Specs Keldeo, the strongest special rain abuser. So if you want to support something that is not outclassed and doesn't risk breaking the CAP or derailing it from its goal, chose an ability that is not outclassed, such as the two abilities i mentioned in this paragraph.


    I agree with you that if we make a speedy Harvest mon we probably shouldn't give it Pursuit.
  5. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    May 28, 2010
    My point in supporting Cloud Nine over Water Absorb or Natural Cure is that I think Cloud Nine helps Sun more in comparison to other weathers than Water Absorb or Natural Cure do.

    i.e. let's say Cloud Nine, as a percentage of total helping, helps Sun 40%, Weatherless 30%, Sand 20%, Rain 10%. I would then view Water Absorb as helping Sand more than it currently does, hence the percentage impact on Sun is smaller, even if it's better for Sun, because, well, it's also better for everyone.

    Natural Cure and Water Absorb both fall into this category, where I fear they help Sun marginally less relative to other playstyles than Cloud Nine helps.

    Obviously Flower Gift, Harvest, and Chlorophyll don't suffer from this problem. Indeed they help Sun comparatively to other weathers much more than Cloud Nine. My fears come from filling the wrong roles for Sun or having potential balance issues. For reasons I already expressed about Harvest, I'm not too keen on it. I'm even less keen on Chlorophyll. Of the Sun abilities, I most support Flower Gift, though I too have reservations there.

    EDIT: Also, Water Absorb isn't even on the shortlist, so we should stop talking about it lol
  6. Stratos

    Stratos Banned deucer.

    Aug 26, 2010
    Whoa, time out. This attitude is just very wrong. Community consensus can be established in a step, but until we put it to a vote, it's not "the project we've decided on." There was no vote at the end of the threats list, and this is a very dangerous attitude to have. We should constantly be reevaluating our goals for the project to see if a) they're in line with the concept and b) they have a power level acceptable for the OU meta. you can't just throw "community consensus" in my face and go "so there!" Personally, if we get to Movepool and I feel the CAP is sufficiently powerful with its stats and abilities, I will not hesitate to "throw the abort switch" so to speak and argue against Rapid Spin, even though I have felt from the start it was necessary for the concept to succeed. I would rather have a failed Pokemon than a broken Pokemon, especially so soon after Aurumoth.

    Note that I am not necessarily threatening to do this if Harvest wins, but it definitely ups the likelihood, because as Reach pointed it out is a far stronger ability than Chloro.

    Oh and I really do think we should take Water Veil off the "discussed" list. It's got a leg up on Natural Cure because a) it's more specific, leading to a less "generalized" cap5 and instead one focused on its roles on a sun team, and b) it doesn't force the CAP to switch out after being burned by Toed, so it can actually be an effective answer 100% of the time instead of being forced out 15% of the time to something that probably doesn't enjoy coming in on toed very much
  7. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
    is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Mar 29, 2009
    Cloud Nine
    Flower Gift
    Natural Cure

    This has been a very good discussion overall, so thanks to everyone for making my job easy. Each of the five abilities on the slate will put CAP on a desirable path forward, so I'm personally very pleased with this list of options. I am excited to see which Primary Ability we choose; from the looks of things, it will be a close vote!

    If jas61292 has no objections to the slate, I say we pack this thread up and move on down the road. See you all in a week or so for secondary ability!
  8. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Sep 30, 2010
    So, I was thinking about posting again before this thread closed, but I don't think I really would have had much to add that my previous posts didn't say. I don't think there is anything not on the slate that really got enough intelligent support to deserve to be there. What I have spent a lot of time thinking about is what is on there and whether or not it should be.

    Now, if you have read this thread, you know I am not a fan of Harvest. But with that said, the reasons for that are despite the positives it has. I recognize the upsides, and while I personally do not think it is a good idea, it is not my role as TL to make such a decision. The fact is it does some great things for the concept, and it should be up to the rest of you to decide if it is worth it.

    However, I don't think I can say the same thing about Cloud Nine. The reasons I posted the above paragraph was to show the difference between where I think the TL should and should not be getting involved. Honestly, while the posts for Cloud Nine were well worded, when it comes right down to it, they failed to show how it actually helps with this concept at all. The main argument I have been seeing in favor is about taking water moves better, but we resist water. We shouldn't need this, and even if we do, if we weaken water, we are doing nothing to actually take the strongest hits of our opponents better, which will be the Ice coverage. In the meantime, Cloud Nine makes this Pokemon infinitely more attractive to non-Sun teams. It weakens the fire attacks we want to lose to, and disables sun based abilities. Overall, I see many negatives, and almost no positives.

    So yeah, I'm going to make the first use of these fancy new powers to cut Cloud Nine from the list. Its a cool ability that sounds attractive for countering other weathers, but it really does absolutely nothing for the direction we have taken with this concept.

    Long story short: -1 Cloud Nine
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