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CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Feb 24, 2013.

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  1. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
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    We're now moving into discussing our primary ability for CAP 5! Our Ability Leader for this stage is Korski, so make sure that your posts are generally directed towards him and the questions he asks. He's the one who will ultimately be making the slate for CAP 5's primary ability.

    Furthermore, we have quite a few new rules specifically designed for ability discussions; you can read about them here. The first is that custom abilities are now banned. We can fulfill any legal concept that is within the bounds of what GameFreak has given us in terms of abilities. Secondly, this is not the thread for flavor discussion. If you bring up any flavor, your post will be moderated and possibly infracted. CAP is a competitive Pokemon project, so leave your subjective ability talk at the door. That will come later.

    The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

    Air Lock
    Bad Dreams
    Color Change
    Defeatist
    Forecast
    Illusion
    Imposter
    Moody
    Multitype
    Sand Veil
    Shadow Tag
    Slow Start
    Snow Cloak
    Teravolt
    Truant
    Turboblaze
    Victory Star
    Wonder Guard
    Zen Mode​

    Be careful not to chat about any of these abilities. If you want to learn why they're banned from discussion, you can check out the Policy Review thread that created this list.

    CAP 5 so far:

    Typing: Grass / Dark
  2. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
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    Hello, I am Korski and also the Abilities TLT leader, so I will be guiding discussion for CAP5's Primary Ability in this thread along with our TL, jas61292. To recap, our concept calls on us to increase the usage of underused types while decreasing the usage of overused types in the Smogon OU metagame. During the Concept Assessment, we chose the direction of encouraging the sun play style as a means of achieving this goal, towards reducing Water and Steel-type usage and boosting Fire and Grass-type usage.

    Our typing discussion focused on synergizing with common sun team builds, specifically sun's troubles handling opposing Water-types, Drizzle teams, and Lati@s. A discussion of "roles" also emerged from this discussion, focused on sun teams' lack of diversity in teamslots stemming from all the roles required for the play style to succeed strategically. The prevailing attitude was that we should aim to consolidate current sun team staples to free up additional team slots, and that a "pivot" sort of role was desirable to help manage sun teams' general distaste for switching in and out of hostile threats and entry hazards. To this end, the community chose a Grass/Dark typing. Offensively, the typing targets both Water-types and Lati@s with its STAB attacks, while also achieving super-effective coverage on OU's two dominant Fighting-types, Keldeo and Terrakion. Defensively, Grass/Dark resists the Water and Electric-type attacks commonly carried by Drizzle teams, along with the Ground-type attacks that tend to give sun teams trouble (amongst resistances to Dark, Ghost, Grass, and a Psychic immunity). Through our threats list discussion, we reached a consensus that our CAP should be threatened by Steel-types defensively and Fire-types offensively to form a reliance on Sun-based teammates, as well as Bug-types to promote their usage. At the same time we should threaten the Latis, Water, Ghost, and Electric-types to further sun's codependence.

    The downsides of the typing for our purposes here come from a couple of areas. First, Grass/Dark is weak to the Ice-type attacks that usually accompany Water STAB and are unaffected by sunlight. Second, our typing is weak to the Fire-type attacks that are boosted by sun. Together, these two elements of our typing would suggest that this CAP would feel more comfortable in rain, with Drizzle neutering incoming Fire attacks and common Water-types resisting both Water and Ice attacks. In terms of the concept, this is an end result we should try our best to avoid. Additionally, a 4x weakness to the well-distributed U-turn doesn't help a Poke designed to pivot, and a 2x weakness to powerful Fighting STAB moves, common Fighting-type coverage, and priority Mach Punch is a notable weakness as well (amongst weaknesses to Flying and Poison). These are things to strongly consider as we move forward.

    After our latest PRC overhaul of the CAP Project, the Abilities stage got shaken up and so I will explain briefly how things have changed since past projects. Instead of deciding on all three abilities before moving on, we will only be deciding on ONE ability for our CAP before we move on to stats. This will be our pokemon's Primary Ability, so named because it will be the primary focus of our creation's in-battle function. Our stats will be tailored only to the ability we choose now, and when we come back for our secondary ability after the stats polls, we will be constrained to options that do not overshadow or interfere with the direction established in this thread. We also have a new preliminary banlist of abilities that are completely off the table, which can be found in the OP right above this post. This includes custom abilities, so any posts suggesting banned or custom abilities will be infracted and deleted by our lightning hammer mods.

    So, points of discussion for proposing abilities:
    • Considering CAP's typing, which aspects of our concept, direction, and/or threat list can be best addressed by an ability, as opposed to stats or movepool?
    • To what degree does this ability encourage the presence of Sunlight? To what degree does it depend on Sunlight to be competitive? Does the ability discourage CAP's usage in rain?
    • How does this ability support CAP's capacity to act as a pivot, either offensively or defensively? How does it contribute to CAP's synergy with other sun-based teammates?
    • Does the ability have potential to aid CAP in fulfilling or consolidating other roles necessary to the sun play style?
    I don't expect every post or ability to address all these questions, but good posts will absolutely make use of them to guide their arguments. Based on conversations already taking place in #cap, I can be sure that there are some very viable abilities out there that will strongly benefit us here.

    Finally, a note on Flower Gift, which has been a hot topic on IRC over the last few days for its tricky mechanics in relation to our ban on custom abilities. The Hide tags below will explain the details but are not required reading.
    Flower Gift mechanics (open)
    The basis for this information comes from Zarel and GreatSage, who directed #cap through the intricacies of the in-game coding a few days ago. They have extensively tested the mechanics of Flower Gift in-game and on Pokemon Showdown! and can be trusted authorities on this matter.

    Flower Gift is an ability much like Multitype in that it is hardcoded to only activate if its user is Cherrim (where Multitype is hardcoded to only activate if its user is Arceus). However, the code for Flower Gift as it relates to Cherrim is much more complex than Multitype, which gives it significant distinctions as a signature mechanic. To put the code in layman's terms, here is how the cartridge game treats Flower Gift and Cherrim:
    • Cosmetic Mechanic: "Cherrim can only undergo its forme change when its ability is Flower Gift and the Sunlight weather effect is active." This mechanic is hardcoded onto Cherrim, not onto Flower Gift. The reason for this is that when FG is Skill Swapped away or when Cherrim is hit with moves like Worry Seed or Gastro Acid, Cherrim reverts back to its original forme. Conversely, a hacked Cherrim with any other ability cannot change formes, period. For the CAP process, this means we can ignore forme changes as they relate to the ability itself.
    • Competitive Mechanic: "Flower Gift gives a 50% boost to Attack and Special Defense for its user and its allies if the Sunlight weather effect is active and its user is one of the following Pokemon: Cherrim." This mechanic is hardcoded onto Flower Gift, not onto Cherrim. This 'list-style' coding is the same kind of code that allows both Latios and Latias to utilize Soul Dew while excluding all other Pokemon, for example, and is the reason why Pokemon who obtain Flower Gift via Skill Swap or hacking do not receive the Atk and SpD boost in sun. To give CAP Flower Gift would be a custom mechanic only in the sense that it would add CAP to the list of Pokemon who are coded in to receive the boosts. If Game Freak introduced a new Poke to utilize Flower Gift, they would only have to add the new Pokemon to the list in this string of code along with Cherrim, which would be no different from what we're doing here.

    Long story short, Flower Gift is allowed for discussion in this thread. Zarel has assured us that Pokemon Showdown! will support a CAP with Flower Gift and the ability will have the singular effect of giving CAP a 50% Atk/SpD boost so long as sun is active. This is in no way an endorsement of Flower Gift, simply a clarification. Any discussion of Flower Gift should revolve around its competitive merits and relationship with our current project.

    Okay that's enough out of me for now. I will be adding a running Discussed/Not Discussed List as we get deeper into the arguments, but for now I think we'd benefit from open discussion. Discuss!

    --------------------

    Needs Discussion:

    None

    Done Discussing:

    Adaptability
    Arena Trap
    Filter
    Leaf Guard
    Magic Guard
    Regenerator
    Shed Skin
    Shield Dust
    Simple
    Solar Power
    Solid Rock
    Storm Drain
    Swift Swim
    Thick Fat
    Trace
    Water Absorb
    Water Veil

    Short List (Continue Discussing):

    Chlorophyll
    Cloud Nine
    Flower Gift
    Harvest
    Natural Cure
  3. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    Okay, right at the start of this thread I know there are five abilities on everyone’s minds: Flower Gift, Leaf Guard, Chlorophyll, Solar Power and Harvest. These five abilities all share one common upside: they tie CAP5’s function to sun. However, I’d like to address each individually:

    Leaf Guard: I don’t think this will ever get further discussion in this thread because honestly, it’s an absolute joke. Maybe if it worked like hydration. Outclassed ability smh.

    Solar Power: perhaps even a bigger joke than the above, it does nothing to boost our pursuit and chips away at the health of a supposed bulky pokemon. no thanks

    Flower Gift: This doesn’t accomplish anything besides tying CAP5 to sun—artificially lowering our BST is its only real benefit, and that’s just a minor optics concern basically balanced out by the fact that we’re ripping cherrim’s exclusive ability. All of this pales in comparison to the fact that CAP5 loses all function as a switch-in to Politoed (due to the lowering of its Atk and SpD stats), which was one of our main goals for the mon. If we give it flower gift i will be sorely disappointed.

    However, the other two have some actual merit:

    Harvest: Lots of people have been campaigning for this on IRC, and I do see its uses: harvestSalac, harvestLiechi, harvestResistBerry, harvestLum, harvestSitrus: essentially, harvest is a cool ability that is largely unexplored. My main gripe with it is that it really requires a pokemon /built around harvest/ to reach its true potential—when, for example, will cap5 have the moveslot for lumrest? not to mention, you have to sacrifice your item slot to use harvest. Also, it runs into issues when switching into politoed, but not ones I can’t deal with. Another fear of mine is that if we are going to make our CAP strong enough to tank Latios Draco Meteors, that HarvestLum will just become “lolspecialwall.” Another reservation is the possibility that harvest is too minor on a cap, and still reliable /enough/ outside of sun (50%), to allow use on rain teams anyway. the more i think about harvest, the more reservations i get. We’ll see, if this wins.

    But I hope it doesn’t, because I am DROOLING over the ability Chlorophyll. First—of all the abilities likely to keep CAP5 on a sun team, this is probably the most likely. Considering most of the physical tankinesses I see floating around are hovering about 100, a CAP5 that is unable to get a spin off due to being too slow would be nigh on useless.

    However, my main support for Chlorophyll comes from Rhys pointing out how you need cresellia-level Special Bulk if you want to counter Specs Latios. The alternative is being faster than it, but... then you need to fully invest in speed, which takes either the teeth or bulk away from our CAP (either way making it an ineffective counter). However, Chlorophyll remedies this problem—an uninvested base 70 outspeeds Timid Specs Latios, so it can switch in with an actually /reasonable/ special bulk value (like, say, 90/110, with hp investment) and proceed to trapkill it, instead of needing Ho-oh style bulk. Chlorophyll is also useful against miscellaneous other pokemon that could trouble it from being effective at its duties, such as subdisable gengar, rock gem terrak, and Alakazam. Furthermore, bouncing off of my last post in threat discussion, it allows cap5 to threaten (though not ohko) RP Landorus and Scarfmence, among others, with fast STAB to discourage them from using cap5 to set up a sweep after a spin.

    And to everyone who says that giving it chlorophyll will make it have the same role as venusaur, i respond: only if we give it growth (over my dead body)
  4. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked
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    I suggest Harvest as CAP5's primary ability

    Reason one: Encourages use in the sun

    Mollux could have been a great sunmon. It had access to powerful fire type stab, stealth rock, the ever so important rapid spin, and it even countered water types like a champ. So what went wrong you ask? Well, two things: one it often found itself fighting with Heatran for teamslots and dry skin really, really encouraged its use in rain. Based on this information, there are two things we should try to do in order to encourage CAP5's use on sun teams: try to prevent CAP5 from having to directly compete with existing sun staples (Venesaur) for existing team slots and give players an extra incentive to use Cap5 on sun teams. Harvest, I beleive does both. The ability is far more powerful under sun, giving players a solid reason to use Cap5 in sunny conditions as opposed to any other weather (I don't reqlly see anyone abusing sitrus berry in the rain if you know what i mean). Harvest also prevents players from really choosing between Venasaur and CAP5 because their abilities carve completely different niches for both of them

    Reason two: patches up any weaknesses in typing for better walling capabilities

    Grass dark does come with a bunch of useful resistances, but it also packs a couple of debilitating weaknesses, to types such as fighting and ice, which are common attacking types.with resist berries, Cap can truly wall keldeo and other common waters which would be a boon for both CAP 5 and thesun playstyle in general.

    Reason three: can tank Dracos better

    This is a small, but important, point. With a sitrusberry+harvest combo, CAP 5 could potentially tank a draco meteor from latios,losing about 70% of its health, only to regain most of it thanks to sitrus beery. This could turn CAP5 into a great latios counter if we wanted to.

    Reason four: Can help with scald burns

    We are supposed to be taking care of water types, but because of scald we would have to attack them from the special side from which water types tend to be much bulkier. Harvest+lum eliminates our fear of random scald burns making us a more efficient water type counter

    Reason five: gives it the versatility to perform both offensive and defensive roles for the team

    This basically guarantees this CAP will help sun in some way, shape, or form. If sun doesn't use Cap5 to spin, it can use it to sweep. If sun doesnt need another sweeper, Cap5 can become a utility counter, or a wall, or whatever. Harvest basically allows CAP5 to do whatever sun needs it to do.


    Edit: to all of you who think chlorophyll will help us beat latios, I have a question for you. What happens if latios comes out while its drizzling? Do we sack ninetails? Just something to think about
  5. GRs Cousin

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    Pwnemon hit the nail right on the head with his post, and I am in strong agreement with it. If the process works in that our primary ability will also determine our stats, then Chlorophyll sounds like our prime candidate, considering how it lets us handle Lati@s without screwing over our BST. This means we can invest in the bulk we need to take Lati@s' and rain's attacks while letting us stay at a comfortable 75 base speed. Additionally, CAP5's established role of being a pivot rather than a sweeper means that we will not be making a better Venusaur, so anyone with fears of that should put that to rest. This is especially the case if we stick to the proposed "just enough" speed our BST would be allowed to have with Chlorophyll. There really isn't any reason to oppose Chlorophyll.

    I'm also in large support for Harvest, but not as a primary ability if it means competing with Chlorophyll for a stat spread. Still, it warrants credibility if others want to press for it above Chlorophyll (which you shouldn't!), so there's that.

    Edit: Ninja'd by forestflamerunner. Still, argue for it if you want, but again, remember that between the niches of Harvest and Chlorophyll, Chlorophyll is much more likely to be used in sun rather than as a counter to it.
  6. XXTheDingoXX

    XXTheDingoXX

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    I believe that the Primary ability for this CAP should be Harvest. While chlorophyll is generally a better ability in sun, Harvest has a lot of untapped potential. With the only 2 users both NU, and them having Chlorophyll as well, means that this ability is hardly ever seen in competitive battling. There are many strategies that can be derived from this ability.

    People saying that it would be easier to beat Lati@s with Chlorophyll are somewhat right. It depends on the stat distribution. If we're making a mixed attacker with low speed it could be a great ability. But if we have higher base speed than Lati@s, then Harvest would be better. Also, If this CAPmon has reasonable Special Bulk, It can tank hits from Lati@s, and just heal up the damage with the Harvest + Sitrus Berry strategy. Or, we could give our CAPmon a Tanga berry in order to deal better with bugs, like Scizor.

    But don't get me wrong, Chlorophyll is a great choice for this CAP and I would be happy to see it as the Primary ability. I just believe that Harvest has a lot of potential in being a fantastic and versatile ability.
  7. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    First off, I think the questions that Korski presented are great ways to start off this thread, and I think everyone needs to pay close attention to them when it comes to deciding on an ability. I woul like to specifically draw attention to the first of these, since I feel it is the one where we are most likely to go astray. A lot of suggestions of things that I have heard over on IRC seem to me to either be trying to address things that do not need to be addressed at all, or trying to do things that would be better addressed at other stages.

    Of these suggestions people have been making, the one for which I have the most concern is Harvest. While I at first liked the idea of this as much as many others, the more I think about it, the more I feel it fails to actually address anything we want to address for this concept. Harvest is an ability all about versitility, and when we are trying to focus on filling certain specific discrete roles for a sun team, the ability to do tons of random stuff is honestly quite irrelivant. Additionally, many of the possibilities of use it has seem to me to be things that would detract from what we would want on this Pokemon. For example, we chose certain specific threats last thread, and with a resist berry, Harvest allows us to completley rearrange this list. The only few uses that I feel could be legitimate are Lum to help avoid status. However I almost feel like this is too strong of an ability. Given potentially bulky stats, an imunity to status, coupled with the potential for instant full recovery in Rest may very well change CAP 5 from a sun helper to the new generic wall. Additionally, the supposed tie in to sun is rater minimal. Harvest still works 50% of the time outside of sun, making it significantly more reliable than other quality abilities even without the weather we are trying to help. Now, this is not to say that we need our abilitiy to tie us in to sun. In fact, I am very much of the oppinions that there are much better uses of the ability slots than that. However, I would be very wary of using this as justification for Harvest, as it is still a top class ability even outside of sun. Finally, as Pwnemon mentioned above, is that you really need to build a Pokemon around Harvest for it to work. It is an incredibly strong ability if done right, and simply throwing it on and acting as if it is any other ability has a huge potential for brokenness. On the other hand, it can not single handedly make a Pokemon good, as evidenced by its current holders, so you can't simply hold it back and expect the ability to do the heavy lifting. I feel that this is a balancing act so far removed from the concept that we should do our best to stay way clear of it.

    Moving on, Chlorophyll is another oft talked about ability that I feel is very much in conflicts with our intrests for this project. To be quite honest, our goal here is not to make a sweeper, it is to fill the other roles for a sun team, so in my mind, the use of Chlorophyll is simply an attempt to artificially deflate our base stats. Much of the arguments for it revolve around outspeeding Latios and Latias, but those two are fairly weather independant, and I believe it would be in our best interest to be able to beat them regardless of what the current field conditions are. If all we are getting out of our ability slots is an artificial stat inflation and pseudo sun tie-in, I feel we are not getting much valuable from this stage.

    With that said, I'd like to move to something I think would be a fantastic ability choice for CAP5: Natural Cure. One of the roles we want to fufil with this pokemon is that of a pivot vs rain teams, and while we can easily switch into water and electric moves due to our typing, the 30% Burn chance from Scald and 30% Paralysis chance from Thunder can hamper our ability to preform as intended. Natural Cure would allow us to get in and do our job of pivoting out against the opponent without being perminantly crippled should we be hit by a stroke of bad luck. However, a key difference here from Lum Harvest is that we are not simply immune to status. While a fantastic ability, Natural Cure works in the long term, and does not provide means for completely circumventing the problems of status in the here and now. Natural Cure is a much more controlable ability that would help with an important goal for this Pokemon, and does something that can only be accomplished by an ability.
  8. srk1214

    srk1214 Goddess of Light
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    I've been out of town and incredibly busy and I don't have forever to explain where I'm leaning, but here it is:

    Cloud Nine

    Why? Much concern was brought up about special bulkiness in able to switch into rain boosted water moves. Indeed, even Celebi with it's solid 100/100 special defense takes 34-40% from Specs Toed Hydro Pump when running a SpDef spread. And offensive sets take over 50%. Simplest way to make that switchin easier? Cloud Nine the rain boost away. Additionally, this makes CAP5 a better option against Ferrothorn too as HP Fire will not need to have rain factored in. This is significant. For a random stat example, running 252 Sp Atk EVs, Modest, and Life Orb, unstab HP Fire requires only a Base 50 Sp Atk to guarantee the 2HKO even including Lefties (meaning Ferro can't switch in even to TWave/Gyro Ball/lay hazards). Under Rain however, to get the same 2HKO, you need 130 or so, as Latios shows. That's a MASSIVE change. Switching back into Ninetales isn't always an option. Hazards eat Ninetales alive and so do predicted doubleswitches that force Ninetales right back out, leading to more damage later. Even though Sun has no Ferrothorn weakness per se, it is weak to Ferrothorn's hazards and making life harder for Ferrothorn with Cloud Nine restrengthening Fire coverage seems a good thing for Sun. This does mean we threaten Scizor more than maybe we'd like too, but that can be fixed by making Bullet Punch a little more threatening than most Pokemon are comfortable with.

    Regardless of Scizor, I feel this is the single best way to threaten Waters. It's also a decent option against Electric types that often use Thunder. Potentially helps against Hurricanes too.

    Rather than taking the obvious path of "oh hey mon to help Sun. Gives obvious sun-affected ability." I think we need to remember our threats discussion (that I missed). Waters and Electrics are things we should threaten? Weaken their attacks so it's easier to switch in.





    And for everyone freaking out over Latios, we can fix that in movepool. And Stats somewhat. There's no ability that will single handedly stop Specs Draco Meteor... There are moves and stat fixes that can help much better.
  9. DFrog

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    Supporting Chlorophyll as CAP5's primary ability is tailored for sole use on Sun teams the best. Having Chlorophyll as a primary ability as opposed to other sun focused abilities like Harvest or Leaf Guard, is that it provides CAP5 and sun teams the best utility. Something that seems important for the viability of CAP5 on sun teams–the utility it brings.

    Having Chlorophyll does two things for CAP5; one of these things being described by Pwnemon, that CAP5 will be able to reliably check Lati@s and either force the pursuit trap or outright knock out the opposition with the Dark-STAB of choice. The typing also serves to check frail and/or fast threats to sun. On that note I bring up my second reason–the offensive spinner.

    The best utility that CAP5 could bring to a sun oriented style of play is as a rapid spinner. Chlorophyll ability can serve as a deterrent for fast spin blockers, i.e. Genger, coming in on CAP5 and immediately threatening out CAP5 with a powerful Focus Blast. With Chlorophyll CAP5 would be better suited to combat this threat (Jellicent is a non-issue based on typed alone). This would allow CAP5 to get off a last ditch rapid spin which could ensure the success of the team. I'd imagine that CAP5 would be better than the current Rapid Spinners that we currently have access to, being Donphan and Starmie. CAP5 would be a beneficiary of sun, unlike Starmie (whose primary STAB is neutered), and is able to defeat both common spin blockers in OU, unlike Donphan. As an added advantage, on paper, CAP5 should be able to beat both of these spinners should they appear on other teams (sun orientated or otherwise).

    My main argument against Harvest is that it puts CAP5 into a niche; that niche being is that CAP5 needs to be built around a specific berry, forcing it to sacrifice a item slot and possibly move-slots to accomodate this gimmick, for example a 'Resto-Chesto' set could potentially be run however this limits CAP5's move-slots to three (or two should it also be using Rapid Spin), this could severely restrain CAP5's utility on a sun team. I'm not saying that Harvest is a bad ability for CAP5 however Chlorophyll is considerably more flexible in what move-sets CAP5 is able to viably run that would benefit sun as a whole.

    Playing devils advocate, the main argument that could be made against having Chlorophyll is that 'CAP5 would be another/replace Venusaur'. My answer to that is a resounding no. Taking a different route than Pwnemon's answer, CAP5 in my eyes is meant to be played as a utility pokemon that facilitates a easier sweep by: clearing the weather for sun, removing the field of hazards and weakening or removing counters to the main sweeper or offensive core of said sun team. Venusaur is a sweeper that is meant to capitalise on the work of pokemon such as CAP5 to bring the trainer an easy victory.

    jas61292's post wherein he references the ability Natural Cure, I'd support that ability as a superior alternative to Harvest. Paraphrasing jas Natural Cure offers a certain permanency or longevity to status immunity rather than the immediate fix offered by LumHarvest. This immunity given to CAP5 would more than likely extend its lifespan on and off the field as a Rapid Spinner because not being riddled by status. Should CAP5 have natural cure, as a sun spinner, it would have another advantage of Starmie (should be used on a sun team).

    To close, Chlorophyll is the superior option for the primary ability of CAP5 as it allows CAP5 to aggressively demonstrate its utility on sun teams, however, supporting abilities like Natural Cure or Harvest would be an excellent option as it prolongs the longevity of the pokemons lifespan.
  10. Deck Knight

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    Putting my support in for Harvest.

    While it is indeed generically versatile, Harvest has several problems that specifically make it balanced without being overpowering.

    1. Consistency:

    Harvest is only *consistent* in Sun. While it is indeed very possible to switch into a Scald while it is raining and have Lum Berry take care of the burn, there is no guarantee Lum Berry will grow back, meaning if you were relying on LumRest as your means of tanking foes, you are banking on a 50% shot to regain it outside sun. If the Scald user is faster and they burn you, they will eat up your Lum Berry again before you Rest, leaving you vulnerable. Furthermore if you do actually LumRest, it is again another 50% shot to regain the item after using Rest. Should you be forced out, ordinary sleep rules apply and you are banking on another 50% shot to bail you out.

    2. Counter-strategies:

    Harvest has a few other problems that keep it from being overpowering. This stems from 3-4 moves and an Ability. The moves are Bug Bite, Pluck, Trick/Switcheroo, and Knock Off. Due to their impracticality I don't think Embargo or Magic Room will be used, and Incinerate is far too weak to take seriously.

    Bug Bite is the biggest threat, and it happens to have great distribution for being a BW2 Tutor. The vast majority of these threats are in the "Bug" Egg Group, meaning we would be increasing a fairly unused type, or at least promoting SD rather than CB Scizor, as it commonly uses Technician Bug Bite as its STAB.

    Pluck is not as effective as Bug Bite because the weakness is only 2x, but it also has decent distribution on the basis of being a TM and the flying types that get it tend to have beaks or buck teeth (or are Crobat and Sigilyph).

    Trick of course can be possessed by the Latis themselves, but if Specs is tricked away from Lati@s then we've made them easier to handle, even if they've made life more difficult for CAP 5.

    Finally there is Unnerve, which prevents berries from being used altogether. While I sincerely doubt Tyranitar or Haxorus will start switching their ability, there exist several Pokemon on the list that we would like to encourage, specifically Galvantula, Aerodactyl, Houndoom, and Vespiquen.

    3. Fulfilling the concept.

    Harvest's primary versatility is defensive versatility. With very limited resistance to priority, the best applications of Harvest I can see are with 4 primary berries: Lum, Resistberries, Sitrus, and Enigma Berries, with possible runners up going to Jacoba and Rowap, and perhaps a tiny niche for Chesto Berry as it ensures a random fast Thunder Wave or Toxic don't mess up your Rest plan. Harvest is never going to help CAP5 sweep effectively unless we give it either sweeper-level Speed and Attack/SpA or very strong stat boosters. Of the scenarios I can see, we can most certainly tie this Pokemon at the hip to sun to maximize the offensive potential of this defensive ability.

    The Resist Berries also help us deal with key Pokemon like Keldeo (with Chople Bery) by giving us a chance to survive their onslaught and put them in KO range for another Sun Pokemon. It helps us win more neutral matchups with things we want to threaten while doing very little against types we don't. Occa Berry is not going to save us from sun-boosted Heatran Fire Blasts, as we will either play in Rain and rely on an inconsistent Harvest to keep procuring a method of survival, or the more likely action on such a team which is use a Water-type. Yache Berry is thus the most likely to be used berry, or perhaps even Enigma as it allows us to better tank Ice Beams that do 49% damage or less. Either way, the ability allows us to either Switch In or Stay In - which is exactly what we want a pivot to do.

    I think this makes Harvest the best ability to shape the rest of our stats and movepool process around, because it allows us to fulfill the concept by making the consistency benefits of play in sun far outweigh the generic utility of Harvest when it works 50% of the time in conditions that can be played around or addressed by competent competitive strategies.
  11. UltiMario

    UltiMario

    Joined:
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    I typed up a huge post on why I support Cloud Nine, just to realize that being able to break Scizor in two in Rain really defeats the concept of what CAP 5 is about. So, to the backup it is!

    Water Absorb is a clear winner here. It allows CAP 5 to come in on any Water type move without fear, of which are the hardest hitting of the STABs that CAP 5 will have to come in on. The next hardest that CAP 5 will have to worry about are Thunders, coming in at 180 BP after STAB compared to the immense 270 Hydro Pumps after STAB and Rain, it's a clear winner here that some way to guarantee that CAP 5 doesn't get worn down by Water attacks is Water Absorb. This also allows CAP 5 to be perhaps the hardest counter to Rotom-W in the game, laughing at both its STABs and not fearing really anything else Rotom-W can possibly throw at it, making it the king of Water/Electric counters.

    In terms of Psychic and Ghost-type counters, one ability is particularly interesting. Adaptability gives Pursuit 80 or 160 Base power, basically nullifying the guessing game around if Ghosts and Psychics are going to switch or not. This would allow CAP 5 to bring Psychics and Ghosts that it could either outpace or survive a hit from to a hard stop with Pursuit. This also allows CAP 5 to split the likes of Celebi in two, thanks to now powerful Crunches or Night Slashes. Dark is a type that never really got an immensely powerful STAB move to abuse, resulting in needlessly weak attacks, which Adaptability also fixes and allows CAP 5 to function at the capacity it needs to without requiring a Tyrantiar-level Attack stat (or possibly higher). On top of that, CAP 5 would be able to slaughter Water Types with the possibility of Base 240 power Power Whips or Wood Hammers, Base 280 Power Leaf Storms, or hell, drawback-less base 180 power Leaf Blades.

    On the flipside of this, obviously Water Absorb does nothing to interfere what CAP 5 should be checked by, and Adaptability in the long run really means Ninetales can't brainlessly come in on it in fear of Crunch. In the Dragons dispute, Water Absorb doesn't really add much to the table (Latios Surf, that's about it for common sets unless I'm being dumb), and Adaptability only essentially makes it harder on Latis (which is obviously fine) and just slightly less safe for other non-Hydreigon Dragons to switch in (which promotes more Dark-type usage from Hydreigon, another net gain for the CAP).
  12. noproblem23

    noproblem23

    Joined:
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    I think something that is overlooked and may help to fulfill the concept would be Thick Fat. (sorry artists)
    We want the ability to switch into water types freely and with an ice weakness this becomes hard to do, considering that essentially every water pokemon can learn ice beam. However, Thick Fat allows brings us back to neutral on this front and makes it easier to take ice-type moves and not have to fear water types. Looking at usage statistics, Politoed, one of the main pokemon this cap is supposed to counter, carries ice beam 68% of the time. This is more than it carries scald or any other water move. Starmie, another pokemon we should be threatening, carries Ice Beam 69% of the time, more than any other attacking move. Thick Fat also provides fire neutrality, which is something we are supposed to be threatened by. Under the sun though, Fire-type moves will still be doing plenty of damage so I don't think this becomes much of an issue.
  13. Ignus

    Ignus

    Joined:
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    Harvest, I think, is our best option. I love Tropius with THE FIRE OF A THOUSAND SUN TEAMS, but the real reason is for it's Versatility

    Giving a poké more the one role can never be necessarily bad. Salac berry vs. Sitrus give you two completely different play styles. Being able to move in more then one direction will be helpful in countering a variety of threats from different sides of the rain.
    Do I want to survive scizor or deal with l@tios?
    Is politoed a larger threat for my team then Ferrothorn?
    Choosing in this situation means that you give the player more options - and more limits - depending on what berry and therefore what set they choose.
    In a sense, it lets CAP 5 be a jack of all trades without being a true jack of all trades.

    Chlorophyll on the other hand is just a cheap stat boosting option. I mean, hell, Harvest can do that too, so why not have it instead? Chloro limits our uses and limits the value of something that could be so versatile. Why limit your options to "outspeeding latios" when you could instead change that to "outspeeding latios" or "beating politoed" or "being everything Tropius could've been without being complete and utter shizzle, my fizzle," and none of them being on the same set? It's like making 3 or 4 different Pokemon at the same time.

    Look at Breloom, for example. Technician Breloom plays completely different from Poison Heal Breloom. Now imagine if instead of it being two different abilities, it was two different items? HARVEST IS FLIPPING MAGIC! Do it for Tropius!
  14. Menace13

    Menace13

    Joined:
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    Over on the IRC, much discussion has already occurred about the various abilities CAP 5 could potentially have. I'll highlight some pros and cons of a few different abilities.

    What we should consider:

    Adaptability - SO much conversation has occurred about this ability. The ability boosts its Grass and Dark attacks tremendously, effectively making it an even better pivot for a sun team, which inherently would have a weakness to Water attacks and the Latis. As the idea is for a pivot which functions well on a sun team, this seems like one of the best abilities for CAP 5. It not only restricts its power to the specific Pokémon which it seeks to be a pivot against, it also gives it enough power to truly threaten those Pokémon, which will often elicit switches. Doubled base power will literally allow CAP 5 to wreck those types its STABs are super effective against, namely Water, Rock, Ground, Psychic, and Ghost, three of which are supposed to be threatened by CAP 5 and none of which are supposed to threaten it. However, as nyttyn will argue, it has the downside of "limiting" CAP 5 to just its STABs, as all other moves would be weaker, most of the time even when the opponent resists the STABs. Likewise, it will limit the rest of the creative process to creating it around those two types. Some believe that it will render coverage moves unnecessary; some think it will simply function as a better pivot and counter to the Pokémon which it is meant to be a threat to. Adaptability is definitely an ability that needs more looking into.

    Cloud Nine - An ability which got some mentions in our conversations, but not much. It seems like it could be useful, as it temporarily ruins the momentum of a weather team. Making Hurricane and Thunder have 70% accuracy, lowering the power of the already not very effective water attacks by 33%, and making HP Fire just as powerful as normal all make Cloud Nine a useful ability. Furthermore, since it doesn't permanently remove weather, it can switch in on a sun team and remove the boost to Fire sun gives the opponents which would wreck CAP 5. It's a great ability, and would be very useful against rain teams or on sun teams in general, if only for the temporary weather removal. Unfortunately, it can help a rain team just as much as it could hurt it, except for the loss of rain to protect it from its Fire weakness. Regardless, it wouldn't be a bad option, and should not be overlooked.

    Harvest - A lot has been said about this ability already in this thread, so I won't go into details about it. It makes it very versatile on a sun team, but does nothing to prevent use on a rain team. Harvest is definitely a popular option, but the real question is whether or not it would really help CAP 5 accomplish its goals. It seems to me personally that it would make it into a wall rather than a pivot.

    Natural Cure or Regenerator - These two abilities both are perfect abilities for a pivot: Natural Cure allows it to pivot more reliably, while Regenerator allows it to pivot more times per battle. While a Burn from Scald, which is commonly found on rain teams, could put a pivot out of commission for the rest of the battle, and Sleep and Freeze from Spore or Ice Beam could instantly lose you a Pokémon, Natural Cure would free up your Pokémon the instant it leaves the battlefield. It would allow the Pokémon to reliably keep coming back, free from status ailments every time. On the other hand, Regenerator would keep CAP 5 healthy enough to reliably come in and out many times, even with Stealth Rocks or Spikes on the field. Neither ability would allow the pivot to deal with Toxic Spikes, but both the ability to either stay free from status ailments from any other source and the ability to heal 1/3 of its health on the switch out are great options for a pivot such as this. The big question comes down to which would be a better option, and whether or not Regenerator would be overpowered. Furthermore, neither truly limits its use on rain teams, which makes them less useful for CAP 5 specifically. If used, we would have to be careful on how we implemented them.

    Storm Drain or Water Absorb - These two abilities should be fairly straightforward: on a Fire team, Water moves are common threats, and either of these abilities would limit that threat if used well. Switching CAP 5 in with either of these abilities would allow another layer of comfort for a Fire team which also threatens those Pokémon which use Water attacks. Unfortunately, Storm Drain's Special Attack boost would not be very useful for most Dark attacks, and from what others have said, it is more likely to be a physical attacker. Water Absorb seems like a better choice given what we have decided thus far. However, the question is whether it really needs a Water immunity and how that could help it on a sun team without making it useful on a rain team.

    Thick Fat, or the ability which would make Yilx kill himself - This ability is much like Adaptability in use: Adaptability boosts two attacks, Thick Fat boosts two defenses. As CAP 5 has 6 weaknesses, two of which are common attacks, and one of which is extremely common on Water types, having a bolstered defense against Ice attacks would greatly benefit CAP 5. Currently in the OU meta, 68% of Politoeds run Ice Beam, which is more consistently run than any single Water move. Likewise, 69% of Starmies run Ice Beam, which is, again, more than any single Water move. (Each does have three different Water attacks which, if you add their percentages, add to more than their Ice Beam percentage, even adding to over 100% in Politoed's case.) From these statistics, it is plainly obvious that a Grass type that is meant to counter Water types is going to have trouble doing that without a resistance to Ice attacks as well. Thick Fat would not only provide that resistance to Ice attacks, it would also give a defense to Fire attacks, which would negate their weakness in rain while only lessening the weakness in sun (and making it neutral without weather). It would be a great ability, if only to get rid of the Ice weakness and to remove 1/3 of its plentiful weaknesses. It would make it that much more of a threat to any Water Pokémon faster than it, while not making it overpowered and not giving it extra use on a rain team where half of the team resists Ice and Fire, not even counting in rain's hinderance to the power of Fire attacks. Thick Fat would be a great ability, but unfortunately it would also screw over literally 90% of the artists who have submitted artwork, as almost all of them are plant-based. It should definitely be considered, though.

    EDIT: Lawl, just noticed that noproblem23 included the exact same stats and reasoning for a large portion of what I said about Thick Fat. Oh well. Redundancy shows how useful it would be.

    What we should NOT consider:

    Chlorophyll - Chlorophyll simply would make CAP 5 another speedy Grass Pokémon which is capable of sweeping teams with Choice Specs or Choice Band and powerful STABs or coverage moves. We don't need more of those. Even if it was incapable of sweeping, being fast effectively eliminates the idea of it being a pivot and makes it more a revenge killer. That goes against the entire idea of CAP 5.

    Leaf Guard - Leaf Guard serves the same purpose of Natural Cure or Harvest, largely, except that it requires sun, whereas Natural Cure only requires a switch out and Harvest only requires the berry to be reacquired. While it would not use your item, unlike Harvest, it is less viable than Natural Cure and would force you to use it only while you have sun up. If a rain team switched the weather on you, it would be just another normal Grass Pokémon, effectively. This would make CAP 5 rely heavily on sun, and prevent it from countering rain teams without sun being the dominant weather.

    Solar Power - Solar Power would be a horrible idea. CAP 5 is a pivot, not a sweeper, not a revenge killer, not a wallbreaker. We don't need another powerhouse; most Fire Pokémon are already very powerful under the sun.

    Flower Gift - Just like Solar Power, this would turn CAP 5 into something it is not intended to be. As in single battles it only affects itself, this would basically be a Solar Power for Attack and Special Defense instead of Special Attack, but with no drawbacks. It isn't a bad idea, but since most good Dark attacks are physically based, and Grass has a lot of power physical attacks, this would potentially do the same thing as Solar Power, but for physical attacks. Which, again, goes against the entire idea of CAP 5.



    Anyways, those are my opinions and thoughts about each of the abilities discussed here or on IRC or that I have thought about.
  15. Base Speed

    Base Speed What a load of BS!
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    Ok, if I may present a few my opinions:

    Harvest:
    This one's been talked about a lot already, and with good reason. I love it mainly because it makes CAP5 better in the sun but not reliant on it - meaning the best way to counter it is not by using another weather. It also allows CAP5 to abuse sun without stealing the niche of sun's current abuser, Venusaur, which is important to me as Venusaur's types are ones we want to raise. And I love the versatility it'll bring.

    Chlorophyll:
    Look back at the reasons I love Harvest and you'll quickly see that despite also being a sun ability, Chlorophyll has none of them. It's entirely reliant on sun, it does overlap with Venusaur and it's very one dimensional. Seriously. No Chlorophyll please.

    Adaptability:
    I'd been planning on putting this one forward for a while but I'm surprised someone's beaten me to it already - it seems out of place among all the sun abilities. Still, no doubt it has merit as it allows CAP5 to perform the roles we intended it to better without causing it to threaten its planned counters much more. Doubled Dark moves will smack the Latis and would give pursuit (if we chose to use it) a chance of doing decent damage. Grass STABs would now hit our targeted Water types extra hard and there's the potential of a high-powered Giga Drain or Horn Leech to give CAP5 reliable healing, allowing it to stick around and pivot or support for much longer, so this ability actually plays really well into CAP5's intended playstyle.

    Natural Cure:
    Not much to say here. It'll doubtlessly make CAP5 a better pivot, and that's good. Would be quite happy for this one.

    Anyway, lectures are calling. I'll come back and address the rest of the proposed abilities later.
  16. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    I was typing a big post about Flower Gift, since I think its merits are understated in this topic, however after reading like, ten times, Pwnemon's posts I realized that the cons probably outweight the pros and it can lead us to just not being a reliable answer to Politoed or being an absolute monster of a special wall in Sun otherwise. I'm still kinda well inclined towards this ability, so if anyone can provide good arguments to address Pwnemon's points on this, I'll be more than willing to vote for it.

    For the other abilities, Harvest and Clorophyll stand out in my opinion. Harvest gives us a great amount of flexibility, and can address somewhat the problem of taking Draco Meteors and boosted Hidden Power Fires (yeah, somewhat, since we STILL need very, very good special bulk to avoid being 1-2HKO'd on the switch...). That's why Clorophyll is my favourite one at the moment: being able to outspeed in Sun means we can just avoid the OHKO with stats and punish it somehow. This may seem a poor argument or whatever, but I'm concerned about what we'll need to do to be able to deal with Latis without the boost of Flower Gift.

    tl:dr - Supporting Clorophyll for now, unless someone gives solid arguments for Flower Gift.
  17. Yllnath

    Yllnath

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2008
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    304
    I thought we wanted to use CAP5 to actually empower sun teams to perform well. Not use CAP5 as it's primary members once Sun is up.

    Giving CAP5 any sun-related ability will do two things:

    1) It doesn't give CAP5 anything at all to deal better with Toad in Rain, countering Hazards or Lati@s when we've not managed to get sun up, regardless of weather.

    2) Let's face it, every CAP we create is our little baby. We love it. If we give CAP5 ways of effectively abusing sun on it's own, why will we ever still switch to Venusaur to sweep when CAP5 may do it anyway. Chlorophyll and especially Harvest are incredibly neat little toys that I'm sure everyone wants to to play with after we do get sun up. Even if we've managed to create a 6th team slot for sun teams for another sweeper by combining a pivot/spinner role, I'm sure that we'll want to use CAP5 late game too if we as much as get the chance to do that.
    This has nothing to do with empowering the existing team members of sun teams any more. We just make a mon that only relies on Ninetales to perform well both early game, removing sun's counters, and late game, abusing the sun with it's abilities.


    I love how Jas brings up Natural Cure, as it's completely in line with the ability I'm thinking about; Regenerator. Natural Cure to prolong CAP5 longevity assuming status will be our main downfall, Regenerator assumes that damage over time will whittle us down instead before we removed any of the counters to sun teams.

    Let me quote srk in a post above me: "even Celebi with it's solid 100/100 special defense takes 34-40% from Specs Toed Hydro Pump when running a SpDef spread." If we don't have 100/100 defensive stats, or can't afford to run a defensive EV spread because we need our EV's offensively, we'll effectively be taking even more from Toad. If it's also our first time switching in, because we're hoping to spin some hazards away, add that damage taken to the already scary Hydro Pump damage, and we'll be looking at a CAP5 that's at least half dead, if not worse.
    Regenerator will not only give CAP5 some breathing room to fulfill it's role at taking out it's main enemies, it will also be a decent ability late game, as Regenerator allows us to be a solid defensive pivot, should we still have a need for one late game to switch from sweeper to sweeper. Not only that, Regenerator gives us a lot breathing room in the statting department too, as we know that the solid 33% regeneration will take us a long way of not having to have mandatory Celebi like stats.


    While I do agree that sun- related abilities help tie CAP5 to sun teams, as long as we make sure that in terms of offensive coverage, CAP5 has much less to offer to other type of teams than it does on sun teams, it's primary use will still be on sun teams. And that way, we don't have to rely on abilities that really allow CAP5 to steal the limelight from sun team members instead of empowering them. Which is, in my opinion, completely against the concept.

    My vote goes to Regenerator, although Natural Cure is a very decent runner up for me, albeit perhaps a bit less powerful.


    Cloud Nine is decent and I think the worry about Cloud Nine giving us a shot to maim Scizor is unfounded. Fire coverage is something we didn't want anyway, so HP Fire is the only thing we could use against Scizor. While Scizor with it's quadruple weakness may be maimed by a potential HP Fire, just spamming HP Fire on CAP5 when it switches in, in the hope of catching Scizor, is asking for trouble. A weak HP Fire against rain teams is just inviting in would-be counters to CAP5 without having done anything of use that turn, as HP Fire is probably laughable damage versus them, neutral weather or not.
    Also, while Cloud Nine makes Toad's STAB attack a lot more manageable, when he's still alive to promote rain, as soon as Toad's dead, and Ninetales can get sun up, you're actually of worse as a defensive pivot against the remainder of the rain team's water members. Because where your other team members are taking halved damage water attacks, you also cancel out sun with Cloud Nine and you still take the neutral water attacks. This makes Venusaur a better pivot than CAP5 is late game, and we are actually trying to alleviate Venusaur out of that role because it already has to do too much. Cloud Nine makes CAP5 a better defensive pivot pre-Toad demise, and a worse defensive pivot post-Toad demise, in terms of tanking water attacks from rain team members aimed at our miscellaneous fire type team members.

    If we're okay with this kind of split potential, I'm fine with Cloud Nine too. Just wanted to throw this theory about Cloud Nine out there though.
  18. nyttyn

    nyttyn Ribbit!
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    Arceus forbid, out of all the things to gain traction, Adaptability!? It does not deserve looking into, it's beyond awful to..

    Okay I'll just let the numbers speak for me. This is assuming a 100 Attack CAP5, a very reasonable number that has been thrown around a lot. (There's no other way to talk about a ability that directly affects attack power without assuming at least SOME level of stats, and given how frequently discussed 100 attack has been, it seemed like the ideal choice.)

    Show Hide
    252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability (custom) Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 218-257 (67.49 - 79.56%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability (custom) Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 125-148 (47.7 - 56.48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability (custom) Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 218-257 (61.06 - 71.98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability (custom) Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Tentacruel: 224-265 (61.53 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability (custom) Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 250-296 (75.52 - 89.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability (custom) Power Whip vs. 200 HP / 244 Def Landorus-T: 177-211 (47.96 - 57.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability (custom) Power Whip vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 252-299 (73.04 - 86.66%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability (custom) Sucker Punch vs. 184 HP / 4 Def Rotom-W: 195-231 (67.94 - 80.48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability (custom) Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 278-328 (92.97 - 109.69%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock



    And that is why Adaptability is a bad idea. On top of having extremely questionable worth for fufilling our concept, it just ravages the metagame if it has anything even close to resembling a passable attack stat (and pro-Adabtability crowd: if you say "then why don't we give CAP 5 lower attack," then what was the purpose of Adaptability in the first place other then to arbitrarily limit CAP5?).

    To pre-emptively counter 3 incoming arguments I know are coming:
    1. No, this isn't going to free us space to give CAP 5 more bulk because CAP 5 is going to be a offensive mon at heart as it will always require enough power to kill the Latis in a single pursuit and the toed in a single power whip to accomplish the niche we have decided we want to carve out for it.
    2. No we can't just give CAP 5 lower attack to make up for adaptability, that defeats the entire point of having it in the first place.
    3. No, we can't just kill CAP 5's coverage because who needs coverage when you're getting all those OHKOs and just-about-almost 2HKOs with only a Life Orb, no setup, and 160 BP prioirty? (In the case of not-priroity, 240 BP moves)
  19. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Slacking Off

    Joined:
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    The ability step is going to be vital for CAP5 because we have, in short, given it some very hard jobs. It not only has to switch into Politoed, braving supereffective scarf Ice Beams and the everpresent Scald, but it also has to switch into Latios and possibly eat one and a half specs draco meteors before it can do anything back to it. To do this without resisting Dragon and without any sort of edge basically requires the special bulk of Kyogre, at minimum (anyone who plays ubers knows that switching even SpD Kyogre into Latios expecting to live is a bit of a risky buisiness). It's my opinion that any ability we use should either negate burn from Scald, or pad our ability to live these Dracos somehow, as these are the two biggest challenges faced by our CAP.

    Harvest:
    I think this is the perfect ability for CAP5, because with it the CAP can be configured to face either of the above challenges at the option of the battler. With a Lum Berry, CAP5 can shrug off status reliably in Sun, and at least once outside weather. Even coming into Politoed in rain, Harvest will probably proc enough to beat the Scald burns and even if it doesn't, you just need it to switch in once with Sun up to fix it's burn.

    Additionally, Lum or Chesto Berries allow for Rest strategies, letting the CAP shrug off the massive special hits it has to take and avoid dangerous 50/50s centered around Pursuit if it chooses to. One might object to CAP5 becoming such a powerful wall with rest, but most of the things that threaten it are going to probably OHKO it with SE attacks on its weaker physical defense side anyways, making reliable rest useless.

    CAP5 can even utilize a Sitrus berry to switch directly into Latios Draco Meteor and survive much more easily, with the berry possibly activating on both the first and second Draco (definitely doing it in Sun). Sitrus will also help CAP5 better take supereffective Ice Beams from choice Politoed without as much fuss.

    Basically, CAP5 has a tremendously difficult job walling extremely powerful special hits AND frequent burn, and Harvest can help with either of those as needed. I strongly support it as the primary ability.

    A word on Thick Fat. I think this ability is very dangerous. It doesn't help CAP5 wall huge Dracos from Latios at all, which is going to be the matchup that controls its stat spread. Therefore it'll certainly have Kyogre level Special bulk, and neutrality to fire. Suddenly all those fire types that were supposed to threaten CAP5 might be walled by it unless they carry moves on the physical side. Surviving Ice Beams is a great luxury, but the real work is surviving Dracos.

    I am not enthusiastic about Chlorophyll. Unlike Harvest, which will give the effect of the berry at least once out of Sun, Chloro is completely useless. If it relies on Chloro to check Latios, it can ONLY check it in Sun. Chloro can't help it switch into Politoed, since Rain will be up, and wouldn't ever save it from Scald anyway.

    Adaptability is intriguing. It saves us some power on offense that hopefully could be translated into more possible investment in defense, but it still does nothing for Scald and we still need to be Kyogre to switch into Latios.

    Natural Cure would probably be my second pick after Harvest. Natural Cure does not help with walling giant special attacks, but at least it lets us recover from a Scald burn, albeit a little less efficiently than Harvest does.
  20. XXTheDingoXX

    XXTheDingoXX

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
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    Okay, here are my responses to some of the new abilities suggested:

    Chlorophyll:
    I'm changing my opinion of this ability after reading Jas and Menace's comments. I have realised that this could just lead to a new venusaur, and though that is obviously not what the people that want chlorophyll intend, I think it will be quite difficult to stop. All it needs is a decent attacking stat and it can sweep with a choice band.

    Adaptability:
    Essentially, I don't like this for the same reason I don't like chlorophyll. Instead of speed, it bumps up attack. With a decent attack stat, it could sweep with a choice scarf.

    Water Absorb/Storm Drain:
    This idea I am kinda iffy about. Out of these 2 choices, I am certainly leaning towards water absorb. I feel like our CAP could benefit a lot more from healing than it old from a sp. attack boost, especially since its most likely going to be a physical attacker. The reason I am unsure about these abilities is because it makes me question whether we actually need something to tank water with all these grassmon that benefit from sunshine. Especially since our CAP already has a resistance to water, I don't think it needs an immunity.

    Regenerator/Natural Cure:
    I was a bit unsure about these 2 abilities at first, but I began to see potential behind them. While I feel that Natural Cure is completely outclassed by Harvest, I can understand why some people want it. While not under sun, the CAPmon will not be significantly weakened, and though it is supporting sun teams, it can still function without them. Regenerator is a great idea and would be my second pick for an ability behind Harvest. It adds scouting utility, and a way to easily restore health without fearing the opponents attack taking away the HP you just healed.

    Cloud Nine:
    This is an interesting Idea, but I fear that it could be used with rain teams as well as against it. Also, when sun is up, it increases the accuracy of hurricane which could threaten our CAPmon if they have Tornadus or Volcarona. It also increases the power of the foes water attacks, and decreases the power of our fire attacks.

    Thick Fat:
    I think this is quite a good idea. Having more defence against ice is required if this is going to be a successful rain stopper. Whether its through moves, abilities or stat spread, the problem of ice beam needs to be addressed. And I also think it is a nice bonus to have a little more resistance to fire, considering it seems to be our greatest check for our CAPmon at this point in time.

    TL;DR:
    the abilities I see viable for this CAPmon are (in order of preference):
    1. Harvest
    2. Regenerator
    3. Thick Fat
  21. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    OH GOD IS IT TIME ALREADY.

    CAP5's ability is obviously going to be really damn important in defining its role on Sun teams, and also in ensuring that Rain teams don't pick it up instead. I think there's some important things that we need to remember when picking the primary ability.

    • It's the only ability that will have an impact on CAP5's stat spread, due to policy changes.
    • It will overshadow all other abilities; that is to say, we can't pick a more defining ability afterwards.
    • As mentioned before, it needs to ensure that CAP5 is used on Sun teams much more often than on Rain teams, to effectively decrease Water usage.
    That said, I think the most defining and impactful ability for this Pokemon would be Chlorophyll, if not necessarily the most balanced or even best choice. The ability to double CAP5's Speed in certain conditions will affect our stat spreads more than any other ability than Flower Gift, which after discussion on IRC I think would either make CAP5 too powerful in Sun or not powerful enough outside of Sun, thus not making it an ideal candidate. Thus, I think Chlorophyll absolutely needs to be discussed in depth at this stage, as if we vote against it in this poll, we aren't going to have the option to get it back.

    With that out of the way, here's some traits that CAP5 would like to be able to satisfy to help it successfully fill its roles as determined in the concept assessment.

    1. It needs to be able to take on Latios and Latias exceptionally well.
    2. It needs to be able to switch into Water-types in Rainy conditions.
    3. It needs to be able to spin reliably and effectively to promote Fire type sweepers like Volcarona.
    4. It should not be able to be used almost as effectively on Rain teams, which intrinsically benefit Grass types more due to the Fire neutrality.
    5. It could do with being able to remove Scald burns, as the only mons immune to its Burn will be hit super-effectively (or at best neutrally, if Sun is up) This is important as CAP5 is most likely going to be physically offensive, to better fulfill its trapper niche.
    I'll make a follow up to this post later explaining how Chlorophyll satsifies points 1, 3, and 4, ensuring that CAP5 sees more use on Sun teams than anywhere else, but for now, I have washing up to do.
  22. remetagross

    remetagross

    Joined:
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    Something that worries me is that I fear we're making of CAP5 to good a Keldeo partner. Something which can effortlessly get Lati@s and Jellicent out of the way is quite amazing for Keldeo, and if people resort to things like Dragonite to counter it, well, we've just increased the usage of Dragons.
    Therefore, giving CAP5 an ability that can work out , even partially like Harvest, in the rain seems dangerous to me.
    I much prefer Chlorophyll, but I don't quite grasp the point of not using Flower Gift. Sure, it artificially increases our BST, but isn't Chlorophyll doing the same? Moreover, being able to outspeed Specstios is great but unless we sack something to get a clean rk, we need to come in and weather a full-powered Draco Meteor, which is almost impossible without heavily balancing our stat spread. And Chlorophyll doesn't give a hand to stomach the various attacks we take on the switch from anyway (most probably) slower pokes, such as Jellicent.
    Finally, the increased SpA, while not making Pursuit any stronger, could make certain threats who would force us out right when they come in think twice before entering for free, thus helping us keeping a bit of momentum.
  23. inanimate blob

    inanimate blob

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    I'd like to review a few abilities that I've only seen mentioned once or twice.

    Water Absorb

    Definitely an ability to consider, but not one of my top choices. Politoed wouldn't be as dominant if it only used Water-type moves - and while they are powerful, we need to consider the coverage that Politoed, and even other Rain Pokèmon, have against our Shiftry. Remember Focus Blast and Ice Beam? While Water Absorb would be very helpful against these Water moves, our Dark/Grassmon already has the resistance. Dry Skin shouldn't be considered, since it absolutely destroys CAP5's usefulness on Sun Teams, and helps it on Rain teams.

    Thick Fat

    Ah, here we go. Ice- and Fire- moves are definitely going to hurt CAP5 a lot. As such, and ability to help it out would go a long way. Additionally, this would help it more in Sun teams with the Fire boost. But would that discourage the use of Fore-types again? Definitely something to consider.

    Now, please hear me out.

    Solid Rock

    Definitely something no one's looked at yet - it doesn't work at all aesthetically. But, it would help CAP5 substantially - allowing it to tank every single move that Politoed could throw at it, besides Toxic and Perish Song, of course, would help substantially against Rain teams. Additionally, Scizor wouldn't be as much of an issue, with the U-turn/Bug Bite weakness becoming 2x, rather than 4x. I get that we don't make our own abilities, but if we really wanted to help make CAP5 great, we may need to either make it aesthetically correct for Solid Rock, which may be one of the best abilities for it, or perhaps change Solid Rock's name to Solid Leaf for it or something.

    Sun Abilities

    Look at Shiftry.

    [​IMG]

    Now look at Tropius.

    [​IMG]

    What do these Pokèmon have in common? Sun Abilities. Shiftry even has the same type as our CAP5. And what else do these two Pokèmon have in common? They suck, outside of some very unique situations. These two prove that Sun abilities just don't work.
  24. Nyktos

    Nyktos Custom Loser Title
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    At the moment I am in favour of Chlorophyll. I realize it's a bit counterintuitive to use an ability like this on a non-sweeper, but it actually does good things here. Our list of Pokémon to threaten includes, among others, Latios, Latias, and Gengar. These are all very fast, very powerful Pokémon that can do a lot of damage. Sucker Punch is a move that's been discussed a lot, but two out of those three commonly carry Substitute, and I'm sure Latios might start running it two if a so-called "counter" shows up that relies on Sucker Punch to beat it. Outspeeding is by far the best way to beat these Pokémon, and while beating Gengar is not really central to our concept, the other two are the entire reason we chose Dark-type in the first place.

    Now, outspeeding doesn't require Chlorophyll: we can simply give CAP5 at least 111 base Speed. The problem is that we then need to invest a large amount of EVs into Speed, which gives us less room to invest in bulk and offences...so we likely need to increase those stats to higher levels, and then oops, BST nightmare. Again. Chlorophyll allows outspeeding those Pokémon in sun with reasonable Speed stats with small amounts of invested EVs.

    Now, if that was "all" Chlorophyll did, the criticism that it's just a way to cheat on BST might be reasonable. But that ignores the benefits brought to the concept by the fact that it only works in sun. There's been talk of giving CAP5 Rapid Spin, and some have been worried that non-sun teams might quickly snap up a Dark-type spinner due to its ability to beat Ghosts. However, if we can't reliably beat Gengar outside of sun, they may think twice about going that path. (And it is really hard to beat SubDisable Gengar using Sucker Punch.) I think that if we do go the spinner route, it will be very difficult to keep CAP5 "a sunmon" unless we take the steps to do that now. Making CAP5 less reliable as a Lati@s check outside of sun may also lay to rest some of the fears about "breaking" sun by beating several of the things it is weak to at once. (Meanwhile we can still beat the mostly slower Water-types outside of sun, which is more important.)

    The concerns that Chlorophyll will lead CAP5 to just being a sweeper are understandable (as that is the role Chlorophyll users typically play) but, in my opinion, largely unfounded. There are a variety of ways we can avoid making CAP5 a sweeper. We can make it slower than other viable Chlorophyll users (somewhere in the high 60s or low 70s is quite acceptable for our purposes). We can avoid giving it boosting moves. We can more generally give it a movepool unsuitable for sweeping, with lots of support options and a lack of good coverage. We can do all of the above if we have to, though I don't think we do: all we need is to make it worse at sweeping than Venusaur, really. Running two Chlorophyll sweepers may sound tempting, but running two offensive Grass-types is not a recipe for success.

    In conclusion, chlorophyll roxxx.

    That said, some thoughts on other proposed abilities

    Natural Cure - This is my pick if Chlorophyll doesn't work out. A non-sun-base primary ability means we have to be extra vigilant to avoid making a generic goodmon, but if we do go that route, something to help us against status is definitely the best choice. I like Natural Cure better than the likes of Water Veil because burn is not the only status we need to worry about.

    Regenerator - This is quite similar to Natural Cure, but the status curing is more important than recovery I think. This also causes the problem that it weakens the path of using Synthesis or Moonlight to help tie CAP5 to sun, while not doing anything to tie it to sun itself.

    Flower Gift - This is a really, really bad idea. On the surface it's comparable to Chlorophyll. The difference, however, is that we can beat Politoed without a ton of Speed, but we cannot do so with nerfed Attack and SpDef. Putting our stats at the level we need them to be at to beat Water-types (even just Toed) in rain requires making this thing completely insane in sun.

    Harvest - I like Harvest, it's cool, it's a sun ability, it does all sorts of cool stuff. That last one, unfortunately, is sort of the problem. It does too much cool stuff. It does...well, pretty much anything you want. Status immunity? Check. Recovery? Check. Nullify a resistance? Easy. Boost your stats? You bet. And so forth. We have some very specific goals, and focusing on them is a better idea than picking an ability that does everything.

    Thick Fat - This is okay I guess. Ice weak does suck. Not really the most important thing though.
  25. Base Speed

    Base Speed What a load of BS!
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    @Nyttyn: You can't just pick an arbitrary base attack and a random move and tell us that CAP5 will be broken with adaptability and those moves. We have no idea what base attack we'll give CAP5 and there's a decent chance it'll be considerably less than the "broken" figure you've chosen. This isn't good logic and proves nothing. Also, let's not forget how unreliable sucker punch is, so even if your assumptions turn out to be correct, it's no where near as bad as you're making it out to be.

    @Inanimate Blob: You can't just pick two pokemon with sun abilities that suck and say "lol all sun abusing abilities suck". You've totally disregarded the possibility of correlation rather than causation. Basically, nothing's proven here. I could equally present you with Venusaur, another pokemon who has a sun ability and say "all sun abilities must be awesome". It's silly logic.

    Now, some more abilities:

    Regenerator: A dream ability for a pivot. This'll be a great boost to CAP5's longevity and will allow it to function as a pivot much better.

    Thick Fat: I don't really like the idea of using this ability to patch up type weaknesses for CAP5. Why do we want to? Haven't we agreed we want fire types as a counter, and if so, wouldn't we be mad to remove the weakness to them. Yeah, extra help in dealing with Politoed would be nice, but this can come from the base stats or movepool with less detrimental side effects.

    Flower Gift: I see this as an inferior option to Harvest, really. I'm open to the idea of a sun abusing ability, but Flower Gift has absolutely no effect outside of it, making Politoed a potential counter to CAP5 due to its ability to summon rain and remove it's effect. At least with Harvest there's still a 50% chance of success, making Politoed a shaky answer at best.
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