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CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Feb 24, 2013.

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  1. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    Sorry to point it out, but this is an extremely poor reasoning. Following your logic, Venusaur should suck too since it has a Sun-related ability. Just because two pokemon with a Sun related ability suck, it doesn't mean every pokemon with such a kind of ability will suck too (this fallacy probably has a name, but I can't remember it now). Tropius and Shiftry have other kind of weaknesses that make them suck, for example typing, stats, movepool, whatever. We can prevent all of the previously mentioned defects to happen in the next stages of this CAP, thus end up with something that does not suck.

    EDIT: yeah, ninjaed obviously
  2. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    The blind assumption a CAP is going to have a certain stat should never be the base of why an Ability should or should not be used. Despite discussion favoring it, saying "it's a bad idea here's some arbitrary calcs that won't matter in the long run" really shouldn't be used for deciding abilities. The opposite would be occurring- if Adaptability is chosen then an Attack stat would be chosen in-part by CAP 5's access to it. It would also allow CAP 5 to have an ability synergy- one ability could be used more effectively on sun for example, and Adaptability would allow it to more effectively counter Psychics and Ghosts, and even hit Bulky Waters very hard. Fill both roles, and get to choose what you want to be better at without forcing us to use a Gargantuan attack stat to hit Pursuits.
  3. TooMuchSugar

    TooMuchSugar

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    So, at this point I'm really liking Harvest. My reasoning is this: we want to be able to beat Lati@s, but we only want to be able do it on a sun team, to avoid being used as a generic Lati@s counter everywhere. The best way to do this, in my opinion, would be a health-regaining berry with Harvest. This would let CAP 5 switch into Lati@s, tank a Draco Meteor, and have enough health left to take another and kill with Pursuit. This lets us avoid giving Cap 5 huge special bulk or speed in order to take out its targets. While high stats are certainly options, they allow CAP 5 to take out Lati@s outside of sun as well, making it Keldeo's dream partner, something people have mentioned as a situation to avoid.

    Regenerator or Natural Cure looked great to me at first. They would let CAP 5 be a good pivot with Ninetales during weather wars by letting it tank Scalds or Hydro Pumps without fear. My problem with these is, again, CAP 5 would need large special defense or speed stats to beat Lati@s, and a super bulky or super fast grass-type with a great ability is likely to see a lot of use everywhere, particularly... on rain teams! It would love to have a reduced fire weakness, it has great defensive synergy with common rain pokemon, and it could easily remove Lati@s for a Keldeo sweep. The more I think about it, the less I like these two.

    Chlorophyll doesn't look too bad, now that I really think about it. It wouldn't be used anywhere but on sun teams, obviously. It would be able to beat Lati@s easily, and again, it would only be able to do so in sun. We don't want to replace Venusaur, of course, but I think we could avoid that by giving CAP 5 a bad speed stat, no boosting moves, and mediocre coverage.

    Natural Gift also ties us to sun, but it just looks less useful overall. If we give CAP 5 an attack stat that's not overpowered with Natural Gift activated, it's useless outside of sun and we lose the ability to threaten Politoed in its weather. This could be a problem with Chlorophyll as well, but at least then we would have enough attack to beat Politoed.

    None of the other abilities look very promising. Adaptability gives us nothing but a lower attack stat. Thick Fat helps a little with tanking Ice Beam, but doesn't accomplish much else. It does look at least marginally useful, though. We should already have enough special defense to take little damage from Water-type attacks, so Water Absorb doesn't look too useful.

    My choices are:
    1. Harvest
    2. Chlorophyll
    3. Thick Fat
  4. remetagross

    remetagross

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    Ok i realized i messed up with Solar Power increasing Atk and not Spa
    So I guess Chlorophyll would be the better bet. Don't you think pairing Keldeo with a Regenerator/Harvest trapper would be nasty?
    Natural cure would also do the trick i suppose.
    I don't like Thick fat, because of we want to alleviate our typing weaknesses, why did we ever chose it on the first place? We want Fire types to be effective counters.
  5. srk1214

    srk1214 Robin/Robben is my OTP
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    Can someone please articulate how a grass type with Cloud Nine possibly is good for a Rain Team? It seems an awful idea to me.
  6. psykokitty

    psykokitty

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    Regardless of whether nyttyn's logic is flawed, I agree that Adaptability probably shouldn't be discussed right now. My position comes from looking at Korski's original discussion questions; I don't feel that Adaptability is necessary to address something that couldn't be addressed in later stages. We want more power? Stats (and movepool) can take care of this.

    Therefore, I'm leaning more toward supporting Regenerator or Natural Cure. In addition to what other supporters have said already in favor of them in terms of synergy with Sun, I feel that both of these abilities bring something to the table that no other stage could provide.
  7. Max Fightmaster

    Max Fightmaster

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    As of right now I'm leaning towards 3 abilties, Natural Cure, Harvest and Shed Skin.

    Both abilities have their merits since out of rain's most used moves, Scald and Thunder both have the ability to burn/paralyze 30% of the time. Not to mention a lot of Politoeds typically run Toxic which could potentially cripple CAP5. As a bulky pivot, it wouldn't want to lose 12% of it's health every turn or that cut to it's attack granted we give it Pursuit (sorry if I'm poll jumping), not to mention exponentially losing health from Toxic. Most sun pokemon hate getting paralyzed too since it would impede on Chlorophyll boosts. Natural Cure, as jas61292 stated, doesn't make CAP5 completely immune to status. It's still forced out by Toxic, it still gets affected by burns, and it still gets its speed cut by paralysis. It isn't reliant on sun like Harvest is, and fares a little better under rain since we don't have to rely on a 50% chance to recover the berry. It's a conservative approach to the problem's CAP 5 might have.

    Harvest however is a lot stronger of an alternative to Natural Cure. Under sun it gives you a guaranteed berry every turn, and while that gives you all of the above benefits that Natural Cure has, I'm worried that it might be too helpful if that makes sense. It opens the door for too many strategies that might prove to be troublesome in the long run, one of the most apparent is it's ability to sponge Draco Meteors thanks to harvesting Sitrus berries, or resist berries to lessen a weakness to Ice or even Hurricane's that rain teams love to run. It could just turn into a special wall that just happens to function more effectively under sun. I fear that the cons might outweigh the pros on this, but the benefits are certainly noticable. As Deck Knight put it, the sheer defensive versatility is great.

    I think considering Shed Skin would be a great middle ground option. It doesn't force CAP5 to switch in and out to absorb status, and it doesn't necessarily open up strategies that it could abuse like Harvest does, well other than Resting up like Revenankh. Speaking of rest, resting off the damage from U-turn's or Mach Punches (Depending on the bulk of CAP5, again not trying to poll jump) without being forced out is very beneficial. It doesn't really encourage sunlight but it isn't reliant on it either, nor does it completely change what threatens it like Harvest does. Shed Skin also has that great benefit of absorbing paralysis without resorting to a ground type like the frail Dugtrio.
  8. CiteAndPrune

    CiteAndPrune

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    Others mostly said what needed to be said before me... mostly. Still I'll give some explanation of what I think for each ability, to give other readers can consider, I guess.

    The abilities I support:

    Natural Cure and Regenerator - Helps us perform our pivot role better, sustains CAP5 throughout the match and they aren't reliant on our holding the weather advantage. NCRest's power in tanking Draco Meteors is the best chance we have that I can see. Also, to everyone worrying that CAP5 with them would see use on Rain teams - if we're forcing Rain teams to run a Grass/Dark Pokemon in their lineup, we're increasing the usage of underused types, plus, sun team's members would destroy CAP5 in a match up. I have no fear of CAP5 seeing use on Rain with either of these two abilities chosen.

    Chlorophyll - Ties CAP5 to sun teams strongly and will let us outspeed the Latis in the right weather without giving our mon elite tier speed. It's obviously not helping during the rain though, but I think it has potential. I don't see the threat of outmatching Venusaur - depending on movepoll it has, CAP5 isn't going to look anything like Venusaur, between coverage, boosting moves, and support options, plus, the typing is different after all.

    Cloud Nine - It has potential, I think it can rival Chlorophyll for effectiveness and removing the rain boost from Water moves certainly allows us to tank them better, plus the accuracy tax Thunder and Hurricane would get. However, I don't like the way its usefulness diminishes after Politoed goes down, as it temporarily cancels our own Sun. Not bad overall, but certainly not very reliable.

    Water Absorb - No mention goes to Storm Drain as I don't see that one's point. I still think this ability has merit on CAP5, for tanking rain-boosted Water moves easily and particularly not fearing SCALD burns but remaining weak to other burns (including WoW). The HP recovery helps offset hazard damage or other random hits taken as well. However, with Grass/Dark as our chosen typing I find this less necessary than before, and overall an inferior pick in comparison to Natural Cure in particular.


    The abilities I don't support:

    Harvest - Too much versatility on a mon that's going to have a very narrowly defined niche. In particular it messes up our list of threats completely.

    Flower Gift - With sunlight gives a good boost for handling the Latis no doubt, to tank their Draco Meteors and hit back with a boosted Pursuit. I'm concerned that it leaves us more open against Politoed however. In general I see it as inferior to Chlorophyll as a boosting ability.

    Leaf Guard - Way outclassed, especially compared to Natural Cure.

    Solar Power - It clashes too much with our intended role of defensive pivot, we'd be making a sweeper with this ability, and sun teams have other members already who can do it better.

    Adaptability - The raw power this gives would just hinder us in practice once we get to the stat stage. Keeping Adaptability-boosted Sucker Punches in check is while still fulfilling our job at Pursuiting the Latis is just not logically possible. Nyttyn's example may have come off wrong to some people but his reasoning is sound and I agree with him. Adaptability here is a trap to pick.

    Thick Fat - Not ideal, though one of the lesser evils to take, leaving us Ice-neutral while resisting Water and Electric. Doesn't help our Fighting, Flying or Bug weaknesses though. I suppose it's an option that'd get a little support from me though.


    I'd throw in another one in the mix but with Natural Cure available, I think I'm set on what I'd like to see in the poll, so I'll keep it to the abilities currently shown.
  9. GRs Cousin

    GRs Cousin

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    A problem I'm seeing with a lot of suggested abilities is that they can be used on rain teams against sun teams. Thick Fat in specific is the largest offender. The combination of Thick Fat and Fire-Neutrality in the rain would make this CAP actually somewhat counter Fire-types in the rain. Even more so when you consider that Pokemon like Ninetales and Heatran are known to run Hidden Power Ice on occasion, leaving them with very little options to handle CAP5 in the rain. Please don't press for an ability that can give rain a pivot with Thick Fat.

    Natural Cure and Regenerator, while feasible, may also find usage on rain teams, due to how they prefer no type of weather. This would be bad, considering how we know that Grass/Dark STAB is the perfect partner typing to form a core with Keldeo. With Lati@s and Jellicent being torn apart by our STAB combination, there is no doubt people would start to use it in rain more than sun. The last thing we need is yet another buff to rain. Regenerator and Natural Cure are too dangerously weather neutral to fit CAP5's concept. Please don't give Keldeo a perfect partner with switching abilities.

    And basically everything above I said can apply to Cloud Nine, too. Cloud Nine + Dark STAB + Hidden Power Water, as gimmicky as it sounds, would make a surprisingly good counter to sun teams. Cloud Nine would additionally mean this thing could find itself on sandstorm teams or even hail teams to counter different weather altogether, leaving sun out entirely. It’d be a mess. Please don't neglect the entire concept of our CAP with Cloud Nine.

    Our primary ability definitely should be one of Chlorophyll or Harvest. If we were deciding two of our abilities before stats, that would be one thing, but the process of requiring our stats to tailor to the first chosen ability means that variable sensitive abilities like Chlorophyll and Harvest need to chosen now. Our CAP's concept almost requires a sun-only ability by its very definition, and that will be a lot harder for us to unbrokenly apply one if we don't have stats made especially for them. Again, a Water-resisting sunmon should have a sun-based ability first and foremost. Let us worry about things like Adaptability or Water Absorb or whatever after we get our stats figured out.
  10. Master of the Six Kings

    Master of the Six Kings

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    With one of the goals being a pivot vs rain teams, i think some way of avoid Scald's burn is going to be necessary. Scald is one of the most annoying and easy to spam moves as is, only failing to burn things it hits Super Effectively and cripples most any kind of Pokemon you can think of. One of the biggest challenges i'll face with a sun team is who to sack for potential Scald burns. Venasaurs can take them, but the burn makes LO variants cry and makes him easier for priority moves to finish off, Ninetales is an obvious switch until they have SR up and you are taking at least 40% per switch in on it, etc.

    Of the abilities that can help nullify this problem, not all are recommendable for this CAP, but i'll roll through most of them:

    Water Veil:
    I think this one is just too simplistic and too niche to actually make much on an impact with our CAP in general, though i'm not opposed to its simplicity.

    Magic Guard:
    I don't think this ability is the way to go, as it is just so strong and versatile. However, it does help fit the idea of a pivot, taking no hazard damage, so with the right balancing it could work.

    Shield Dust:
    This to me is the perfect balance between the two prior stated abilities. It has a bit more use than Veil, and is more balanced than Guard. This prevents many small chance status, including Thunder paralyzing and Scald burning for Rain, and many stat lowering and flinching side effects.

    Water Absorb/Storm Drain/Dry Skin:
    No Dry Skin pls, lol. But giving a full water immunity is an interesting idea, given he already resists it, and the current mons that use these moves in OU (Jellicent, Vaporeon, Gastrodon, Toxicroak) are all very different from the idea we have for our CAP. I think Water Absorb gives our mon more survivability rather than more brute force which makes more sense for a weather war pivot to me.

    Harvest (with Lum):
    I like Harvest, its a cool move with poor distribution. It gives you the ability to customize the idea of our CAP, though if this si picked, all its major options will have to be considered.

    Shed Skin:
    Eh. I don't like it the next ability outclasses it for our mon.

    Leaf Guard
    Apparently this sucks more than i thought. Why it has different mechanics than Hydration i will never know. Stll ok, but bleh.

    Not quite "removing" but burn based:

    Heatproof:
    This resets CAP's weakness to fire in sun to just a normal weakness and makes burn only deal 1/16 damage, making it easier to handle. It does make it easier for him to threaten Fire users out of Sunlight, which may or may not be a problem.

    Guts/Marvel Scale/Flare Boost/Quick Feet:
    I think Guts and Quick Feet are going to be difficult to balance for a mon who needs a lot going for him to deal with rain. Marvel Scale uses CAP's resistance to water and makes it even better with a status condition, which might give us a Sun based Rest-talking semi bulky pivot, something Sun certainly doesnt have right now. Flare Boost is so specific for respectable boost that i could see it working I just like the idea of a Pokemon who needs to be burned under Sun to work.

    So there's some thoughts on that direction. Of the abilities listed above, Shield Dust, Water Absorb, Harvest and Flare Boost jump out to me the most. Other thoughts on these?
  11. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Ok my turn:

    Harvest

    Hands down best ability for this CAP! I don't agree with anyone who says that this ability is too niche or too specific for a Pokemon and so the Pokemon must be designed for it to work. We are talking about one of the most versatile abilities ever, so how can a reasoning like this be right? Here the things that Harvest will bring to the table:

    • Rest + Lum Berry to have reliable recovery and status immunity in order to succesfully take on the water-types found on rain teams, enabling the CAP to succesfully take one of the roles we want it to.
    • Sitrus Berry with some decent special bulk (90 HP + 90 SpD) will allow the CAP to take on even 2 Specs DM from Latios and threaten it back. However we don't want from the CAP to be able to switch with impunity into Latios, so it is good that Latios can still fuck it over with Sun-boosted HP Fire or Trick. This will help the CAP to succeed in one if its main roles, checking Lati@s.
    • Chople Berry to better take and Keldeo (significant rain threat) and Fighting attacks in general. Notice how the CAP will be still threatened by Keldeo as Secred Sword should still hurt even when hitting neutrally as imo we shouldn't make the CAP very physically bulky. Not only this but the CAP won't have lefties meaning that it will be easy to wear down when holding a Chople Berry.
    • Harvest is an ability meant to work in sun. It is usable outside of it but maybe not reliable enough for OU standards, which will discourage the use of it outside of sun, which as already mentioned will be a good thing.
    • Finally, there will be other usable ways to abuse Harvest that will make it a bit more versatile, which will make sun teams more versatile to an extend, a feature they really need.
    The only real downside with Harvest would be the potential to make the CAP too good, as Harvest is so versatile and good, and we have never seen a decent Pokemon with it, meaning that we don't know the full extend of its potential and power. But i believe that with carefull thinking and correct decisions we will be able to prevent this from happening. And anyway what could be more fun and educative from exploring the potential of one of the most intriguing and creative abilities?

    Chlorophyll

    I am not a fan of this one and here are my reasons... First, it doesn't help the CAP at all against Water-types. Let's not forget that one of the CAP's main roles would be to act as a pivot for Politoed, meaning that the majority of the time the CAP will be on the field, it will be raining, making Cholrophyll absolutely useless. Second, it is not reliable at all for taking on Latios. Yeah it enables the CAP to outspeed Latios, IN SUN ONLY, but this doesn't automatically mean that it beats it. Assuming that the CAP will get Pursuit and will use another Dark STAB move with good BP, the CAP still has to play a 50-50 mind game in order to kill Latios. So for example Latios uses DM as CAP switches in, CAP loses most of its health, and then next turn CAP has to predict correctly in order to eliminate Latios, and if it fails it dies while Latios is still alive and able to outspeed almost the whole sun team while threatening to OHKO everything. So the conclusion is that Chorophyll is not reliable because sun won't always be up, and unlike Venusaur which is a sweeper, CAP will be expected to come in when opposing weather inducers are still alive, while also not helping a lot against the threats that we want the CAP to handle. Finally, Chlorophyll is a very troubling ability for weatherless teams, which already have Venusaur to worry about. So my point is, how will weatherless teams be able to compete against two Pokemon that outspeed almost everything while being able to switch moves and hold items? This means that Chlorophyll not only doesn't help a lot with the initial goal of the CAP, it also makes it stronger in other aspects, which we don't care or don't want it to. Does handicaping weatherless teams against sun teams even more sound like a good idea?

    Flower Gift

    This one is tricky... When this ability is active it is the best thing even for the CAP, helping it with Water-types and Lati@s, but it won't always be active, so the problem lies on its reliability. Against rain teams it won't be so useful, as the CAP is supposed to work as the main switch-in for Politoed, meaning that rain will be up while the CAP is on the field the majority of the time. Against Lati@s it depends on the kind of team we are facing and it is too complex to analyze so i am leaving it as it is. So my main problem with this ability is that we can't really tell if it will be reliable enough to work, but if it ends up being reliable enough the benefits will be huge, so consider it something like a big risk-big reward kind of thing.

    Natural Cure

    This is an ability that helps directly the CAP to deal with the threats we want it to, namely Water and Electric types (Scald, Toxic, and Thunder) which is a good thing. However, is this enough? Only if for some reason we don't chose better abilities that exist right now, such as Harvest and Regenerator.

    Regenerator

    This ability is the shit, as we all know by now! There is no doubt that this one of the best abilities, not only for this Pokemon, but for any Pokemon in general. It will certainly allow the CAP to better stomach hits from water-types and stay healthy without giving free turns, and it will also help it against Lati@s, allowing it to act as a pivot for strong DM's, tanking the intitial strong hit, so that the next turn another teammate will be able to take the weaker hit. It's not like the CAP should be able to hold back Lati@s for an extended period of time, as most sun teams are offensive by nature. However, my main problem with this ability is that it will not only work for sun teams, it will work for any kind of team that benefits from the CAP's positive qualities. Furthermore, even though it certainly helps CAP to deal with the threats we want it to, i feel that Harvest helps more, so there is that too.

    Cloud Nine and Water Absorb / Storm Drain

    I don't see how these will help at all. The CAP's main problem against water-types will be Ice Beam and status from Toxic and Scald, not powerful water moves, as those can be handled with a decent stat spread anyway, while the issues i mentioned cannot. Also both abilities don't help at all the CAP with Lati@s. So useless abilities overall. Not to mention that with Cloud Nine the CAP will have potential to be used in Sand and weatherless teams to outspeed and threaten Venusaur (with or without Scarf depending on its Speed) which is clearly not a positive thing for sun teams.

    Thick Fat

    Good ability. Helps against Ice Beam as well as boosted HP Fire from Lati@s. However it faces the same problem with Natural Cure, it just isn't useful enough and should be picked only if the superior abilities are out of the way for some reason.

    Leaf Guard and Solar Power

    If Chlorophyll was bad, these are godawfull, and don't help the CAP with its roles at all, simple as that...

    You can assume that any ability i didn't talk about from the abilities that are already mentioned in this thread was just not worth a mention.

    --------------------------------

    So to sum it up i feel that Harvest, Regenerator, and Flower Gift are the best abilities for the CAP, in order of preferance.

    EDIT: Oh and something else about Harvest... For those who think that Harvest doesn't fit with the concept of the CAP, meaning the Pokemon with niche roles that is not supposed to do a lot of things in general, i have to say this. Even with Harvest the CAP will still have surefire counters and ways to BE dealt with it for two reasons. First, it has a set of crippling weaknesses, making it easy to prepare for even when hoding a type-resist berry. No matter what you do this CAP will always be murdered by Fire and Bug moves. Second, we already have chosen what we want to counter or check our CAP, and this won't change in the ability selection stage. Even if we pick Harvest the CAP will still threatened or countered by Fire, Steel, Bug, and some Fighting types. So even with Harvest the role of the CAP will be specific enough to do only what we want it to.
  12. TheTraininator

    TheTraininator

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    I'm not sure Chlorophyll is a good ability choice for this CAP. The idea of this CAP is to make less common types and playstyles used more commonly, yes? Chlorophyll is an ability that makes a Pokemon great under sun, but I'm not sure that it will make sun itself used more. There are many of great Chlorophyll users, but sun is still the 2nd to least common weather, so we don't need more. What we need is an ability that will help beat out sun's most common enemies, which would allow sun to become more common, right? Therefore, I would say that this Pokemon needs to be a great sun abuser who isn't sun dependent. Pokemon focused around Chlorophyll tend to be sun dependent, so I wouldn't give it Chlorophyll. I personally think we should give it Harvest because though the ability works great in sun, it isn't sun dependent, allowing it to operate decently well in rain and sand.
  13. Raikoben

    Raikoben

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    I support Solid Rock/Filter

    And I suggest Simple. Think about it: Sun+Simple+Growth= +4 atk & sp. atk to became a massive mixed sweeper (if has a good base speed). The problem is that it make Leaf Storm useless.
  14. Vann Accessible

    Vann Accessible

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    My thoughts so far:

    Cloud Nine
    is one of my more preferred abilities (the one I wanted for our Electric/Dark type), as it nerfs water attacks in rain, as well as Thunder and Hurricane, will shield it from sand/hail, and stops Dry Skin. But you also have to realize, this restricts our Grass/Dark poke's ability to use Solar Beam in sun. This may be a non-issue since its most likely going to be a physical attack anyway.

    Thick Fat would be a decent ability, as ice and fire are clearly going to threaten this guy often. I've often thought about the possibilities of a grass type with thick fat.

    Regenerator would work well on a pivot-mon with decent bulk. Give him u-turn and watch the opposition be annoyed.

    Sun dependent abilities like chlorophyll, solar power, flower gift, harvest, leaf guard are not what we're looking for, and you want a mon which can counter rain teams, not another sweeper or sun utility.

    Water Absorb and Storm Drain are just unimaginitive and would just result in basically a Water Absorb Cacturne copy. It also doesn't protect from ice beams, which are the bigger threat.

    I'm going to throw some other options out there for the sake of argument, which hasn't been discussed yet.

    Magic Bounce: A crucial ability on sun teams, deflecting stealth rocks as well as will o wisps and toxics and taunts that might affect our utility counter. Give this guy recovery (synthesis to encourage sun use) and enough bulk and I can see it being a great hindrance to many opposing teams. I've heard some talk of making this guy the Ferrothorn of sun. That could be interesting. It would open up a rapid spin slot or remove Xatu/Espeon from the equation. Also, if I can make a note, I would love it if this guy could help Charizard be viable in OU somehow. Charizard would be great in sun if it didn't suck.

    But ultimately, the problem with any bulky variation of a grass/dark type is still this: it's typing, defensively, is horrendous. It's weak to fire, ice (which thick fat would resolve, but even then), fighting, 4x bug, poison, and flying. But there is still one unnamed option, which would make this perhaps the most influential CAP mon of all...

    What if we gave it... Drought?

    Forget Ninetales. A second sun summoner?! Why not? Sand has two different options. This is the best possible way to give sun an edge over rain. It would obviously win against out one on one against Politoed, Tyranitar and Hippowdon, but being a double-edged sword, it easily loses to the opposing fire types it boosts, the oh-so common 4x weakness to U-Turn found on most leads, as well as Ninetales and Abamasnow. If done right, it wouldn't break sun. It would encourage the underuse of fire types, might even encourage more hail use, which would suit the mission of the CAP.
  15. I'm really liking the balance that Harvest strikes between wedding this pokemon to sun and not crippling it in other conditions. An ability that can work at any time, but is more reliable in sun, seems like a perfect fit. I also like how Harvest allows us to customize this CAP to better deal with particular threats that are troublesome for an individual sun team (eg. HarvestChople to stand up to Keldeo), instead of only building a pokemon that tries to broadly supports the whole playstyle. If we want to make change sun's fortunes in OU, let's do both.

    Harvest can also help us to avoid the problems raised by other abilities. Rest/Lum takes advantage of Harvest's extra reliability in sun, as opposed to Regenerator, which is good on any team (and knowing how generally a typical CAPmon is, could threaten the concept. HarvestYache would deal with the Ice weakness without also removing the Fire weakness (as Thick Fat would), helping Fire-types to check what will be the most overused pokemon in the playtest (a valuable way to increase their usage IMO).

    Some people are complaining that Harvest would make this pokemon to versatile, but it seems to me that sun teams could use a little versatility if they want to be truly successful. We've already imposed clear limits on this CAP with the typing, and the other stages will undoubtedly do the same. Why not give it just a little extra versatility to help it to open slots and cover threats on individual sun teams, and hopefully introduce some innovation to that playstyle? Not to mention experiment with a sun ability that sees very little competitive use instead of the familiar Chlorophyll.
  16. Vann Accessible

    Vann Accessible

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    Do you guys know why no one uses Harvest Tropius or Harvest Exeggutor?

    Their typing is awful. Simple as that. And grass/dark is just as bad. Just saying.

    I don't see harvest vastly being a determent to rain, or a boon to sun.

    Maybe if it were a grass/steel type...
  17. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
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    Alright there has been a lot of good activity here, with strong arguments both for and against some high-profile abilities. It's a good thing to consider what various directions each ability can take us down, to which degree the proposed abilities could constrain our stats or movepool, and how much of a general threat our primary ability choice could create (as opposed to more niche or focused role). However, I think those are discussions that would benefit us more at the "short list" stage of discussion, when we can start comparing ability options directly. I wanted to start out the discussion with a few pointed questions so as to focus our early discussions on "bigger picture" ideas, namely what we want in an ability, considering all the discussions we've had up until now. Instead of commenting on each ability at a time, I'm going to go through my initial questions and relay what I'm seeing from various posters.

    Considering CAP's typing, which aspects of our concept, direction, and/or threat list can be best addressed by an ability, as opposed to stats or movepool?

    From the looks of it, we're not really sure how to answer this question. Our threats list is pretty easy to stomach, but if there are any interesting interactions we could achieve via ability, I would like to hear them. Status has been a big focus of several posts, with Natural Cure and Harvest support suggesting we may want a conditional approach to the generically useful ability to absorb status and insta-recover with Rest. The conditions of each ability can be compared to "focus", however at this stage I would rather discuss why status immunity/semi-immunity is desirable.

    On the opposite side of the spectrum, offensive abilities like Adaptability and Chlorophyll have been proposed to aid CAP in thoroughly threatening the Pokes we have decided to threaten. Right off the bat, this is a more straightforward approach and makes sense. We definitely want to take out bulky Water-types and the speedy Lati@s, so the boost in base stats could take the pressure off of later stages. For offensive abilities like this, I would like to see more discussion on the other questions, especially in regards to cohesion with sun teams.

    To what degree does this ability encourage the presence of Sunlight? To what degree does it depend on Sunlight to be competitive? Does the ability discourage CAP's usage in rain?

    What I'm aiming for here is some critical thought put into how much we want to tie CAP to sun, and to what degree we want to use our ability slots to keep our typing from backfiring on us, weather-wise. Chlorophyll, for example, only works in sun, which can cause problems in situations where CAP needs to react to opposing weather starters or other threats in opposing weather, but also discourages CAP usage on rain more than most other abilities (Flower Gift runs along these lines as well). Depending on sunlight is different from just encouraging it, and I want to get a good idea of what the community thinks should be done about this point. This is one of the strengths of Harvest, imo, in that it does a good job of toeing the line between competitiveness in and out of sun. LumHarvest doesn't require sun to be reliable (unless your opponent is okay with repeatedly launching status at you on a per-turn coin flip), but it is recognizably better in sun, especially considering Rest. Resist berries are in the same boat.

    Conversely, Natural Cure, Thick Fat, Regenerator, etc. have no relationship with sun and can be considered generically good abilities. They do not discourage CAP's use in rain on face value, so I would like to hear what people have in mind regarding this question.

    How does this ability support CAP's capacity to act as a pivot, either offensively or defensively? How does it contribute to CAP's synergy with other sun-based teammates?

    This a big one for me. Arguments so far have seemed heavily based on differing preconceived notions about how we'll be approaching the pivot role in later stages, a direction we haven't very clearly established yet as a community. People supporting offensive or defensive stat builds should translate their desires into more abstract pros and cons for the two approaches, especially in relation to current sun builds. Again, a better idea of where the community stands on this point will greatly impact the slate when we get there.

    Does the ability have potential to aid CAP in fulfilling or consolidating other roles necessary to the sun play style?

    This last question is sort of a mashup of the previous three, and I would like to keep this idea alive as we discuss abilities, as it is probably the most useful common thread we can establish as we move from stage to stage of the project. Chlorophyll has been called out for overlapping with Venusaur, for example, without necessarily replacing it functionally. This is an important question for sun-related abilities especially, as teambuilding has become a central theme of this CAP. Again, I am seeing strong ideas from Harvest supporters along these lines due to its unique customization. I would like to see more mentions of this idea from everyone, even if it is only part of a larger point regarding the other three questions.

    --------------------

    Okay, keep discussing. I really appreciate the level of discussion going on right now; most people are being very thorough with their arguments and so I would like to see that trend continue.
  18. Skore

    Skore

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    Throwing one from out of left field.

    But we want this CAP to come in on rain and force shit out allowing us to grab the momentum by it's scruff and run with it.

    How do you force shit out? By being a faster offensive threat than whatever you're coming in on.

    To that effect I propose Swift Swim as CAP's primary ability. It comes in on Politoed or any other rain mon when the weather is unfavorable and sends them packing, maybe even with a Pursuit to back it up or with a fast spin to facilitate a Ninetales switch or even a fast U-Turn to knock a chunk out of something before switching to a more favorable matchup.

    And as Swift Swim is it's ability, no-one in the meta will be using it on their Rain team thanks to Aldaron's proposal.
  19. Qwilphish

    Qwilphish Playbunny
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    Can't tell if serious or troll.

    But I would like to show my support for Harvest.

    First of all: Harvest is an ability where not completely useless outside of sun- such as chlorophyll and (Why?) flower gift- is much, much more reliable under sun giving a reason to use it in sun and not, say, rain or sand.
    Giving This CAP versatility is NOT a bad thing
    I have read through the all of the arguments against Harvest; too versatile, not worth the item AND moveslot for, not fulfilling the the concept- I would like to rebute these statements.

    Too Versatile:
    Harvest is, without question, an ability with A LOT of practicalities. These can range from Sitrus Healing to LumRest to Boosting Berries. The versatility that this ability brings will: NOT interfere with any goals- even boosting its ability to beat Politoed with Lum curing scald burn) and Harvest will help against specific threats to sun (further helping solidify our CAP general usage in sun over all) with Sitrus being able to outlast its opponent.

    Not Worth the Item and Moveslot:
    Harvest obviously requires us to give up a moveslot, however the berries are used to REPLACE the item normally put such as leftovers. Our CAP will miss the loss of power that comes with the lack of Choice Items and LO, these items will probably be used, if we have one, with the Secondary Ability. With the loss of the moveslot, I don't foresee any problems fitting a move like Rest (if we even need a moveslot for the berry) as the CAP's average set will likely go Grass/Pursuit/Coverage/Filler in which the move will obviously go under the filler spot.

    Doesn't Fulfill The Concept:
    Honestly, I cannot understand how harvest wouldn't help sun (and in turn underused types). Harvest is an ability that makes it so that we can pick and choose what it is that our team needs to stop. We need to beat Politoed more reliably? We can go with Lum or lolRawst. I will not continue due to poll jumping, but depending on move pool CAP 5 will be able to tailor to our teams needs, being a glue poke more or less.

    This is my opinion feel free to quote and try to disprove me otherwise. Also, my second choice for this ability SO FAR is Shield Dust. However, Simple is looking very, very tempting :P
    (Just kidding of course)
  20. TheTraininator

    TheTraininator

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    On the argument that Harvest would prove too versatile - remember, versatile does not mean broken. Take for example Lucario. It has an incredibly versatile Pokemon with a movepool large enough to pull off a variety of sets, but once you find out what it plans to do there are plenty of ways to stop it. The same can be said about Salamence, Celebi, Landorus, and the list goes on. The same goes for Harvest. Even when just talking about the ability alone, no single set from it can deal with the entire metagame. Resist berries only deal with one threat at a time, and Lum/Sitrus won't help it take heavy hits. However, sometimes it only needs to be able to deal with a single threat if the rest of your team can deal with the others, enabling it to fit well onto many teams without it itself being broken. So no, Harvest would not be "too" versatile.
  21. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    Much of the argument I have seen against Chlorophyll has revolved around either competition with Venusaur for a role or making another generic sun sweeper.

    How so? Take a second before reading this post and divorce Growth from Chlorophyll—just because our pokemon comes with +2 speed does /not/ mean it comes with +2 attack. When you look at it, a Pokemon with approximately 100-105 atk (what's been mostly hovering around on IRC), Chlorophyll does not make you a sweeper. You outspeed everything, but Grass/Dark are not exactly what I call stellar sweeping STABs. When you look at every common sweeper in OU, they have two things: 1) A way to boost their attack stats and 2) STAB that hits Steel for at least neutral. CAP5 does not need either.

    The other thing I heard was that it might invest in Speed so it could beat Scarfers. Why? Venusaur already does that—there is no reason for their roles to overlap. I am confident that if we gave the CAP Chlorophyll but not growth, it would invest in Defenses, and only enough speed to beat what stops it from doing its jobs (which is nothing faster than Alakazam, ergo minimal investment). There is absolutely 0% concern in my head that a Chlorophyll Pokemon will be caught up sharing roles with Venusaur.

    The other concern I've seen about chlorophyll... is more legitimate. In that it causes problems when Sun isn't up. However, I would like to remind you that our CAP also happens, chloro boost or no chloro boost, to be exceptionally effective at killing Politoed. With CAP5, winning the weather war should be a fair sight easier, which definitely eases this issue. And I frankly don't see much of an issue with having to revenge kill (and no matter what, you CAN revenge kill) instead of hard counter Latis when Sun isn't up. It blows a little. It also makes the field a little fairer.

    It's worth noting that Chloro is literally our only option if we want to outspeed Latis, as every set will want to invest in some combination of bulk and attack, not speed.


    AND: To everyone who is saying that a sun-related ability is a liability, I argue that a non-sun-related ability is infinitely more scary to me. Look at Celebi, who shares a similar typing and probably a similar penchant for special tankiness. Now look at natural cure, and how it loves sand and rain a lot more than sun. As someone earlier pointed out, Grass types take a natural liking to Rain, because it ablates their Fire weakness. We need to /try/ to get it use on sun—it doesn't come naturally. This is an especially worrying question that I would like to hear a response to from natural cure supporters
  22. remetagross

    remetagross

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    Well, I suppose Harvest makes it at least half as tempting to use CAP5 on rain as giving him an entirely weather-independant ability like Regenerator.
    I would like to point out one of the consequences of this stage's choice: I believe not all of the abilities which won't have been picked up won't be allowed to be chosen as the secondary ability? Regardless of our choice, Harvest and Chlorophyll won't be discussed anymore. But to the ones who stand for Natural cure and other moderately powerful abilities, you'll probably get another chance at the Secondary Ability stage, whereas if such an ability is chosen as the primary one it restricts us to something quite poor as the secondary ability.
  23. Homeslice

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    I just want to throw out speculation about another ability that could really be effective if used right. Besides this, throwing all my support against Harvest, Chlorophyll is a terrible idea which essentially will just turn CAP5 into a new Venasaur should it have Offensively based stats and get nothing done. Prankster would be a better choice if you want faster support. Regenerator/Natural Cure are both second choices.

    Trace-
    Trace is literally never used competitively in Pokemon besides maybe Porygon2 and Gardevoir in extreme cases. This is probably because they're the only two Pokemon that could actually reasonably use this ability, as everything else is in LC or is NFE. Now, imagine this: You come in on a Ferrothorn, and trace it's Iron Barbs. That Ferrothorn will most likely switch as you are immune to Leech Seed and it's main attacking moves. Any physical attacker switched in is immediately in danger to get seriously whittled down fast if they have a Life Orb on. Or, you could come in on Lati@s and trace their levitate, making you immune to any Ground moves you might see coming from the other team, which makes your fire types a little safer for another couple turns. Starmie? Thanks for the Natural Cure, be back soon. You could also trace a Rain Dish or Hydration off the opposing Tentacruel/Vaporeon should Ninetails faint. Also, it can be used to scout out opposing Pokemon's ability, assuming it can run more than one viable option for its ability.

    Trace provides so many different Scenarios, it's ridiculous. It is simply having any ability to yourself that isn't a unique ability, which can usually counter Pokemon so great because they have this special ability. Unfortunately, it's a burden as much as it is a Blessing, Pokemon with abilities such as Serene Grace enjoy the even larger chance for Lady Luck to appear, and Pokemon such as Politoed who have absolutely no problem with you tracing their ability as it does nothing to help you.

    I think Trace has a lot of untapped potential that could really make CAP5 great while not letting it become too centralized. It could give CAP5 that real unpredictability trait that any Pokemon loves.
  24. Mario With Lasers

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    I don't have much to add to this thread right now, but I felt I needed to nitpick this one. Leaf Guard isn't Hydration; it acts like a Safeguard in Sun. If you got burnt by a Scald from a switched-in Toed, you will keep your burns for the whole match. If we really want status immunity of some sort, we need Harvest or Natural Cure. Unless, of course, we decide Scald's burns don't matter and only care about status in Sun...
  25. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    A Suggested Methodology for Evaluating the Relevance of Abilities for CAP Discussion

    I see a huge lack of focus here, so let's take a moment to talk about methodology.

    When it comes to considering competitive abilities for a CAP, there are basically four categories we can sort them into. Note that I am completely ignoring pure flavor abilities like Honey Gather. Keep in mind, we are not considering abilities for a generic cool Pokemon in a vacuum. We have a concept to fulfill, and a targeted strategy for getting there. Not every good ability will fit the bill. We might sort our abilities this way:

    1. Truly Optimal Abilities

    These are the outright most optimal options for the concept. They make the CAP do what the concept is looking for more strongly than any other ability. This does not mean they are the most preferable. Our goal is not to make the CAP as optimized as possible, it is to fulfill the concept without breaking the metagame. We may decide these abilities are too powerful, or create unwanted side effects, or just plain look bad to outsiders. But they are the "best" abilities for the concept, by the metric of sheer power applied in the right places for the concept. I would like to argue that there are three "truly optimal abilities" for this concept.

    Arena Trap
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    Is an absolutely nightmare waiting to happen, but hands-down the most effective ability for this concept given the Grass/Dark typing. Grass/Dark typing means you could effectively trap and kill the OU Holy Trinity of Politoed, Tyranitar and Hippowdon, all without breaking a sweat. That is the greatest gift you could ever give a Sun team. It'd probably be horribly, monumentally broken. But it is "optimal".


    Flower Gift
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    Is a lot more attractive, in that the payoff is very appropriate, very tempting, and works absolutely and inexorably toward the concept. Remember, our goal is to rebalance the types, and our chosen strategy is to boost Sun. Flower Gift is a massive incentive to use Sun, exactly because it does absolutely nothing outside of Sun. A Pokemon with Flower Gift functionally has no ability on a Rain or Sand team. It might still be worth it, but it'll never have the sheer statistical edge that it would if it were being used on a Sun team. Moreover, the boosts to Attack and Special Defense are exactly the right boosts to let you take on the Lati@s twins--you can completely destroy them with Flower Gift up, but likely won't outside of Sun. Remember we don't need CAP5 to have Tyranitar-esque offenses outside of Sun--and if it has them on a Sun team, well, that is pretty significant incentive. Flower Gift is powerful, it is focused, it works forcefully toward the concept and only toward the concept. There is zero chance that Flower Gift could hijack the concept, and for an "optimal" ability, that is a very strong point in its favor.


    Harvest
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    Harvest is virtually the exact opposite of Flower Gift, practically. Whereas Flower Gift is intensely focused in terms of its power, Harvest is extremely versatile, and capable of producing 4-5 different very powerful effects (none as powerful as the effect of Flower Gift). It is focused in that ties CAP5 to Sun fairly strongly, though it leaves significant latitude for being useful outside of Sun. I see LumRest as the most certain, most consistent benefit of Harvest; immediate, total healing is a very, very strong effect. With the right stats, you could switch into even Latios repeatedly. That is almost unheard of. It would also mean never having to worry about Scald burns, ever, which is actually a Very Big Deal for a Grass/Dark Pokemon. Harvest is much, much more consistent than Flower Gift, though the payoff is not as great. I am somewhat concerned that Harvest might be a little too consistent; the power of it is amazing, and there is little to no risk in using it. Harvest is truly optimal for this concept.


    I view these abilities as mutually exclusive; they are far too powerful as a primary ability to even consider having another as the secondary ability. Imagine having to switch into CAP5 in Sun without knowing whether you are switching into a relatively weak Crunch from a wall-like Harvest CAP5, or a CB stick-of-dynamite Crunch from a Flower Gift CAP5. That's not something we want to see.

    2. Non-Optimal Focused Abilities

    These abilities would help CAP5 accomplish it mission of type rebalance in some clear, specific way, but do so much less dramatically than the truly optimal abilities. They will produce a weaker overall effect, which means that is works less toward the concept overall, but also means we are taking a greatly reduced risk in terms of swinging the game balance.

    Swift Swim
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    This would guarantee that CAP5 will never be used on Rain, and would give Sun (and Sand) teams a clear edge over Rain. That is focused toward the concept, though the effect is negligible for a Sun team when Sun is actually up (which is the way you want things as often as possible). I generally don't like this option, though its usefulness is pretty obvious.


    Chlorophyll
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    Rather the opposite of Swift Swim in that it is only useful in Sun, and thus is more clearly pro-Sun than anti-Rain. Here is the really important thing: there is absolutely no reason to think that Chlorophyll should make CAP5 a rival for Venusaur, unless we give the stats and movepool to do so. Chlorophyll is all about speed. Period. It says nothing about its attack stats, its bulk, its ability to stat-up. You could use Chlorophyll on a Lugia-like fast wall if you wanted to. Of course, much like Flower Gift, Chlorophyll would give CAP5 literally noting outside of Sun, so it is quite risky to use, despite having a very high payoff.


    Leaf Guard
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    CAP5 will probably be switching into Scald rather a lot. That's means getting Burned 30% of the time switching in. That really, really hurts. Leaf Guard would make that hurt a whole lot less, and unlike Natural Cure, Shield Dust or Water Veil, would still tie CAP5 to Sun. However, this does nothing outside of Sun, and is generally a specialized, comparatively weak effect even when it works.


    3. Generically Strong Abilities

    These abilities would make a Pokemon of this (and in many cases, any) typing considerably better, but have little to nothing to connect them to this specific concept. They are good to excellent abilities, but they are not focused on the issue of rebalancing types by boosting Sun. In virtually all cases, CAP5 could use such an ability just as effectively on a Sand or Rain team. I find all of these abilities strongly distasteful for a concept as focused as this one. Many users complain about Krilowatt being pulled away from its concept by Magic Guard, and that is exactly the result of the Generically Strong Ability trap.

    Adaptability
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    Adaptability is an ability that lets you blow stuff up, no questions asked. You get to spam a strong CB Crunch, doing so equally well in just about any weather. Very strong ability, almost no connection to the concept of type rebalance, particularly since Grass and Dark are resisted by Steel and Fighting Pokemon.


    Natural Cure/Shield Dust
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    These abilities let you shed/avoid status in every weather, meaning there is nothing at all to tie CAP5 to Sun. You switch well into Scald and Thunder, yes. But you will always do so, no matter what. These dramatically improve a Grass/Dark but have no clear tie to rebalancing types--they simply make CAP5 a lot better at switching into Water and Electric types.


    Regenerator
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    Is one of the heavyweights of Generically Strong Abilities. Just about any Pokemon would be improved by adding Regenerator. It doesn't tie CAP5 to Sun in any way; CAP5 isn't Stealth Rock weak. There is just no reason to specifically recommend Regenerator for this concept. Yes, it makes CAP5 better against the Lati@s twins. And better against everything else. Just like it would make any reasonably bulky Pokemon better against the Pokemon it switches in on.


    Thick Fat
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    Thick Fat is a serious paper tiger. Obviously, any Grass type wouldn't mind a little insurance against Fire and Ice, but realistically, what are we getting help against? What is really hitting CAP5 with a Fire or Ice attack? I concede immediately that it would help a lot against Heatran. But considering that we are going to be trying to take Lati@s Draco Meteors, I am not terribly concerned about Politoed's non-STAB Ice Beams--and remember that this gives CAP5 a better matchup with Heatran and Politoed for all weathers, no just Sun. You gain more neutrality against Mamoswine and Kyurem, which is nice, but neither of these are really target Pokemon for a Sun team to deal with. Thick Fat makes CAP5 generically better, but it isn't focused toward the concept in a specific way.


    Cloud Nine
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    Calling this generically "strong" is kindof a stretch, but because this has been suggested multiple times, I'll address it. Yes, Cloud Nine would help CAP5 take Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps more easily, as it would for any Pokemon. It does reduce the accuracy of Thunder and Hurricane. However, it does only a little to help against Dragons (weakening HP Fire, Fire Blast on the Dragons that have it), and certainly does nothing to work specifically toward rebalancing types, or boosting Rain. By definition, Cloud Nine works equally well in any weather at all; in fact, one could make a case that it would fit even better on a Hippowdon-led Sand team than on Sun. Cloud Nine is situationally useful, but it is so for every single Pokemon that isn't actually a weather-starter itself.


    4. Irrelevant Abilities

    No connection to this concept, not even generically useful to this concept, not worthy of discussion for this. Compoundeyes, Water Absorb, etc.


    With this is mind, I would give my strongest endorsement to Harvest, though I think Flower Gift merits serious consideration, and Chlorophyll would be my third choice.
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