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CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 6 - Stat Spread Submissions

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Mar 4, 2013.

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  1. Nyktos

    Nyktos Custom Loser Title

    Aug 27, 2008
    If anyone's interested, for my own reference I made a list of all spreads submitted so far (sorted into speed categories) and I figured I might as well post it. If people find it useful I'm willing to try and keep it updated.
  2. Todd


    Apr 23, 2012
    I don't really play fifth gen all too often, but I would also like to place my support behind a higher speed tier CAP 5. I can't really vouch for the defensive/support benefits that speed will bring, because Alexwolf did it better than I could. But I would like to argue as to how it's really not in danger of sweeping if we give it good speed. I feel that with the lower attack/speed/special bulk/low defenses that are being thrown around by the proponents of high speed, it's shaping up to look like a sun Tentacruel (especially if we give it Rapid Spin). And I really don't think anyone would call Tentacruel an offensive gamebreaker, even though it's got good speed, great special bulk, and passable/mediocre offenses (like fast CAP 5). It even has boosting moves, surprisingly good STAB coverage, and some pretty decent coverage options including hidden power. CAP 5 has mediocre/terrible STAB coverage, terrible defensive typing, and from the way things are being bandied about, almost no coverage moves, boosting moves, and some severe 4-slot moveset syndrome with Rest/Pursuit/reliable Dark STAB. If Tentacruel can't pull it off, I don't really see how CAP 5 could if it gets some extra speed.
  3. Agile Turtle

    Agile Turtle formerly aqueous tortoise

    Feb 26, 2013
    I applaud your effort, and I respect your argument, but I'm not convinced. If your spread happens to get slated, I will likely not vote for it. Your reasons supported speed, but it isn't enough to make me want speed.

    See the thing is, we don't need it, however it could potentially make for a better pivot. If we sacrifice some speed for some attack, we still have a better chance of countering lati@s and politoed. Switches have priority as well so we don't need speed to pivot to our teammates, which took a large part of your argument. Speed does not help us pivot to our teammates because switches have priority, eliminating the need for any speed.

    Like I said before, we don't need the speed, but why overdo it? Sure we can over do things a little just to make it a little stronger without taking it to the OP range, but why bother? I guess what I'm trying to say is why go that far to make a good CAP when it is already good enough?

    Also, how does speed determine predictability?

    Thanks for that, it is a very helpful reference and it helps me out a lot.
  4. Ignus

    Ignus Copying deli meat to hard drive
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Mar 6, 2011
    This makes a lot of sense, but I think that a slower speed would be more threatening for this situation. For a couple of reasons, actually.
    There are, in my opinion, two types of pivots.
    Offensive Pivots (like what you are suggesting) create threatening situations by and either trapping or creating an unfavorable switch (because of a move like U-turn/Volt-switch, a powerful attack to absorb, or a boosting move). Scizor falls into this category, as well as many others including Rotom, Landorus-T, Metagross, and even revenge killers (to an extent) such as Dugtrio. Their job is to make the momentum shift towards you from a previously dangerous situation.
    Alongside them are Defensive Pivots, which do roughly the same thing, just with other effects. They can set up hazards or spread status among the enemy by forcing a switch because of unfavorable battle conditions. Ferrothorn does this EXTREMELY well, as do others such as Jellicent or Gliscor.
    Walls are just as much pivots as Offensive variations of the same idea. Both stop the momentum of the opposite party. Both help create a better situation for your team. In my opinion, We don't need to be an offensive pivot to be a successful pivot.

    Also, for the most part, healing will take care of itself. With Harvest we need not waste time healing ourselves, whether it be Sitrus that we use or Lum Rest. Part of the reason we chose Harvest in the first place was to help create momentum from an unfavorable situation, such as being statused or being low on health. Harvest takes away the burden of having a low speed. We don't need to waste turns healing ourselves. It's almost wasteful to even have a recovery move on a set when you could instead have protect while your berry re-grows.

    Granted, I do see your point. It would make us a better pivot in some ways. But why bother outspeeding Lati@s when you already can take a hit from it? We need to threaten them, and without either utility or offensive power, we don't threaten. But giving high speed to a mon such high SD and Harvest is a bag I don't want to open. Infinite substitutes are scary.
  5. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize and Blue Badge Set 2014-2017
    is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 11, 2010
    Well, I've promised some commentary, so it seems like a good idea to actually provide some. I've been at a loss for words recently as the discussion has really moved itself well. I anticipated having to post to move the discussion from spread submission to discussion and commentary. However, over the past 24 hours the tone of this thread has made the shift I intended it to do. Although there has been a little rowdiness (remember the purpose of this thread is to submit and advertise your spread while constructively criticizing others), it's been a great discussion complemented by a lot of great submissions.

    I'll begin evaluating the spreads now, and I'll begin with the Final Submissions.

    Deck Knight- I applaud how you build a spread with a set in mind, and the set you've crafted for your spread is appealing from both a personal and competitive standpoint. I'm a proponent of CAP5 using a Wish set, as it will allow CAP5 to aid its teammates, most notably Heatran, to deal with Pokemon that threaten both CAP5 and Sun teams alike (like Dragonite, Salamence, Terrakion). Although I'm a bit concerned about the 83 HP since it provides somewhat meager Wish support, if you max out the HP it's still acceptable because, as you pointed out, Sun Pokemon have fewer HP in general than Pokemon that belong in other weathers due to minimal HP investment. Furthermore, Sun's offensive nature means that Venusaur, Heatran, Volcarona, and co. will receive significant HP recovery. It's a safe bet to ensure that this Pokemon will get Power Whip and Crunch, but your suggested spread does not afford CAP5 the option to use Physical Grass moves besides Power Whip, though that can be fixed by adding Attack EVs. Fortunately, that base 156 Special Defense ameliorates this. For Harvest abuse, I agree that 89 Speed will not break LumRest and that Heatran can always switch to Flamethrower to get past our Pokemon. I hope Enigma Berry picks up traction if your spread is slated and chosen, but I am not entirely convinced that LumRest will be relegated to a fringe option. In conclusion, I applaud your competitive reasoning, specificity in dealing with Lati@s and Politoed and how you designed the spread with a concept-filling spread and mind, though I'm not sure if your spread will successfully discourage LumRest and encourage overlooked Harvest strategies.

    alexwolf- Unlike the above spread, this set seems to rely on Lum Berry and Rest to defeat Pokemon such as Latios. Your spread's defensive calculations demonstrate specific reasons for each stat, and I agree with most of the roles you have this Pokemon play. With proper hazard support, this Pokemon will unconditionally defeat Latios, Politoed (barring Focus Blast shenanigans against a defensive CAP5), yet lose to Keldeo and Breloom. Although I do not prefer giving Starmie a chance against us, the Starmie user would have to properly predict to beat CAP5 and if Starmie can predict that well, then it deserves to win. One issue I have with your spread is that you promote a 252 HP/252 Speed spread in the comments, yet I do not believe you spread is conducive to maximizing HP and Speed. The Attack stat in your spread is lacking (naturally, as the PS limit intended it to do), so I believe that any user of your spread would invest in Attack to avoid firing off Horn Leeches from a paltry 200 Attack. Alexwolf, I would also greatly recommend specifying what EVs you assume in your calculations, especially in the "Why this PT and ST" section.

    reachzero- First of all, this trend of designing spreads after potential sets needs to stay. It is perhaps the most convenient tool for evaluating spreads I can think of. Your spread really plays to the advantages of the typing, and allows CAP5 to sponge resisted and neutral hits from weak attackers like uninvested Tyranitar and Hippowdon. Ensuring we wall Latios seems to be the main focus of your spread, and you do so very nicely. Furthermore, the 105 Attack will allow CAP5 to play a Ferrothorn or Gliscor-like role in the future. The one criticism I have of your reasoning is why you chose 65 Speed, as I'm not sure if we will win the Speed creep war with Politoed without better approaching or even exceeding 70. Although I recognize that the main reason for creeping Politoed is to force it not to run bulk, is it that much of a loss for Politoed to surrender a small portion of its bulk in exchange for 2KOing a top counter? Also, won't CAP5 also be surrendering its bulk if it wants to creep the frog? I'm not totally convinced that your 65 Speed will work as you intend it to. Regardless, the remainder of your analysis is spot-on, and definitely achieves its goal of handling Lati@s while playing a supportive role on Sun teams.

    Well, so far only three people have officially thrown their stats in the ring, so I'll fill some more space commenting on some of the WIP spreads.

    capefeather- I'm quite happy you edited the Special Defense, as I saw your relatively mediocre Special Tankiness as a red flag to an otherwise extremely solid spread. Your stance on Harvest is accurate-it's definitely in our best interests to play with Harvest rather than play around Harvest, and I'd like to announce to everyone reading these evaluations that we need to look for ways to justify Harvest as our Primary Ability rather than list reasons as to why it's not broken. I am of the belief that Harvest is the best ability possible for this Pokemon, and we shouldn't be making excuses for it instead of tailoring our spreads to account for this wonderful ability. This spread accomplishes the goals it sets out to accomplish, but your Harvest-abusing strategy does raise one question: will this spread be able to contend with the Pokemon it's supposed to threaten without the proper Berry? I find that your spread is conducive to Lum Berry as the preferred item, but you've said it yourself: without Sitrus Berry CAP5 will have problems with Choice Specs Latios. If we have problems with Specs Latios, then Calm Mind Latios will put us in a world of hurt. Though your bulk easily lets us contend with Latias thanks to Latias' inability to produce immediate damage, I am concerned with this spread's somewhat shaky ability to defeat Latios. Regardless, your spread epitomizes the "less is more" philosophy of stat spreads and successfully balances optics with competitive reasoning. Good spread :D.

    DarkSlay- So...many...calcs... (that's a good thing by the way). Your spread justifies your 87 Speed stat nicely, as it seems lying in the "faster than Heatran, slower than Lati@s" tier. It's definitely concept-specific because it crushes Rotom-W a vast majority of the time. What I like about this spread is that if defensive Rotom-W tries to Speed creep us, it will lower itself into "OHKO me with uninvested Power Whip!" range. One item I'm wary about is that your Special Defense calcs assume zero investment? Since it's highly unlikely that CAP5 will run a zero-SpD investment spread, are those calculations all that relevant? They highlight CAP5's bulk, sure, but so does the standardized Special Tankiness stat. Your arguments on every other front, especially Rotom-W (a Pokemon that should be mentioned more here!!!), do a great job justifying your spread.

    Pwnemon- Can you go a little further in justifying your spread? Your "log in a pond" analogy is valid, but it doesn't specifically justify why your spread works. What attacks can we take by investing in Defense, and how does that benefit the concept? I like the base 110 HP your spread offers, as it does allow for a degree of customization not seen on many other spreads. However, remember that we decided that Physical Tankiness is not a top priority in the Stat Limit thread, so I'd like to hear why a Physically Defensive spread is concept-relevant and justifies the Base 110 value, especially because I've been a proponent of high Physical Tankiness from the get-go. I do not doubt your conclusions: with your spread, CAP5 can be a tough attacker, a stout Special wall, or one of the toughest mixed walls in the tier. However, your spread runs the risk of not having enough direction: why does CAP5 need to provide all of these roles? I can think of some reasons (Sun teams need offensive firepower to maintain momentum, mixed walls allow us to defeat Politoed while not being sitting ducks against Dragons, Lati@s can only be vanquished with a full SpDef spread, etc.), but I'd like to hear what you think. Please flesh out your reasoning and add some specificity, as your spread looks like something I could really support.

    Birkal- Just as I said with DarkSlay's, thanks for the myriad of calculations. Your spread is much like the one above it from a defensive standpoint and not too different from an offensive standpoint outside of the 20-point difference in Speed. The high HP of your set allows it to do what other sets cannot: add a degree of customization not seen on other sets. One application of your spread that I like is that it can defeat Keldeo with an Impish max/max spread. Keldeo, according to the Threats discussion, is a Pokemon that should be threatened more than it should threaten us, and giving us the option to defeat Keldeo is concept-friendly. Furthermore, this set does not fare well against Heatran under Sun as long as Heatran uses Flamethrower over Lava Plume, which adheres to the Threats Discussion's results as well. As this is a WIP, I expect a little more insight into how this spread uses Harvest since you wrote in bold how CAP5 can pick and choose its counters with proper Berry selection.

    This is a good start to evaluating the spreads posted, but right now it's about two in the morning and as I grow more tired the quality of my post will just diminish, so I'll pick this back up tomorrow where hopefully we'll see some more Final Submissions. I tried to acknowledge each spread's redeeming qualities and point out one perceived flaw or point of improvement in each spread to encourage discussion and responses. Since I've still got six or so more spreads to commentate and some of the spreads are still lacking commentary, I don't intend to close this thread for another day and a half. As of now, I'm thinking of wrapping up this stage of the CAP around Friday at 9:00 PM EST, so don't feel rushed typing up your calculations, commentary,and responses. Furthermore, if you want more feedback on your spread (this means you, people with WIP on their spreads!), make sure to head over to #cap on IRC where dozens of CAPpers congregate and discuss both the serious and the not-so-serious!
  6. capefeather

    capefeather toot
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 26, 2009
    The power difference between Choice Specs Latios's Draco Meteor and +1 Life Orb Latios's Dragon Pulse is significant. This is on top of the turn that it has to spend using Calm Mind. The calcs I'm getting are:

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 179-213 (45.43 - 54.06%) -- 44.53% chance to 2HKO
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 173-204 (43.9 - 51.77%) -- 9.77% chance to 2HKO

    Yes, there is something to say about Dragon Pulse still having a chance to 2HKO without criticals, so that may be a reason to bump up the special bulk a little bit more. However, in the end, it seems to me that it is not quite as worrying as Choice Specs Latios would be. Plus, with Hidden Power Fire, Latios is sacrificing either Surf or Recover/Roost and that comes with its own problems.
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf lurks in the shadows
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 3, 2009

    You didn't get my point. We need to Speed to have more chances to heal and spin, so that we can switch around more and stay on the field less. With high Speed you can affort to make more double switches, as even if you lose some health as you come in, you can then heal back as you will most likely play first when you come in again. This means that with more Speed you can do more pivoting.

    And i don't get why say ''Sure Speed makes the CAP a bit better, but why bother''. Isn't our goal to maximize the potential of the CAP as a defensive pivot against Water-types, Lati@s, and some other threats? Of 'course the CAP can do those things even without high Speed, but high Speed helps it do them better, so why shouldn't i go for high Speed?


    I am trying to make more of a defensive pivot, as the CAP can't really be threatening offensively with limited coverage and mediocre Attack. So let's compare the CAP to the example of the defensive pivot you mentioned, Ferrothorn, and i will show you why the CAP needs Speed while Ferrothorn does not. Ferrothorn has 12 resistances and immunities, 3 neutralities, and 2 weaknesses. It also has amazing all around bulk, resists SR and is immune to sand. On the other hand the CAP has 7 resistances, 4 neutralities, and 6 weaknesses, as well as mediocre physical bulk. Finally the CAP lacks Leftovers, is hurt by sand, and needs to have Sitrus Berry and be at less than 50% health in order to recover health passively. What does this mean? That Ferrothorn walls much more Pokemon in general, getting more switch-in opportunities, while also being much less prone to residual damage.

    The CAP has a typing with a lot of weaknesses, which means that more than half of OU will have a way to threaten it, unlike slow defensive pivots, such as Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, and Jellicent. If the CAP gets at low health it will be significantly more difficult for it to come in again and do something than the other defensive Pokemon, because it is threatened by more Pokemon and is more prone to residual damage (when above 50% health).

    Finally, the CAP will have passive recovery only when holding Sitrus berry and is below 50% health, and a slow CAP that utilizes the LumRest combo is extremely prone to residual damage as it is basically a defensive Pokemon without Leftovers.

    For all those reasons, my opinion is that the CAP needs a high Speed stat in order to make up for those shortcoming that it has as a defensive Pokemon (lots of weaknesses and more prone to passive damage than other defensive Pokemon).

    Thx for the nice constructive criticism Lolcat. All of the issues you have with my spread can be addressed with several spreads that i will showcase below. First of all, why do you say that my spread doesn't promote maximizing HP and Speed? Full Speed is nice to outspeed Lati@s, as well as several other offensive Pokemon (such as Terrakion, Keldeo, and Tornadus) which is very beneficial. However if one wants to go for a slower and bulkier spread he can easily go for it. While it is true that the Attack is a bit low, the CAP still can deal with what it wants to deal (Lati@s and waters) with a fast spread or a more bulky spread. So enough with the generic talk let me showcase the sets i have been talking about:

    Fast Pivot

    EVs: 252 HP / 8 Atk / 248 Spe with a Jolly Nature
    Stats: 386 HP / 202 Atk / 168 Def / 93 SpA / 316 SpD / 354 Spe
    Possible moveset: Power Whip or Horn Leech / Crunch or Punishment / Rest / Rapid Spin
    Item: Lum Berry

    What this set does (open)
    This set takes advantage of the 112 Speed to its fullest. With max Speed investment the CAP is able to outspeed Lati@s and either threaten them with a Dark type attack, Rest to weaken the incoming DM, or get a Rapid Spin off before either of the Latis finishes off with HP Fire. It can also act as an ok revenge killer against certain weakened offensive Pokemon weak to its STABs, such as Terrakion and Keldeo. The power of this set lies in its good Speed and the ability to come, take a hit, and then either pivot to a teammate or get a Rapid Spin off. With that much Speed the CAP also needs to spend less time recovering than other slower stat spreads, giving more chances to the CAP to support the team. Overall this may be the best set with this spread, as it does many things and it does them reliably, but still faces the flaws that we want it to (easily walled or set-up on, weak from the physical side, weak to priority). I have already provided calcs for this spread in my stat submission post so if you want them go and check it. The 8 Atk EVs allow the CAP to OHKO Scarf Politoed after SR with Power Whip.

    Bulky Pivot

    EVs: 252 HP / 164 Atk / 80 SpD / 12 Spe with a Careful Nature
    Stats: 386 HP / 241 Atk / 168 Def / 93 SpA / 369 SpD / 263 Spe
    Possible moveset: Power Whip or Horn Leech / Payback or Pursuit / Rest or Sub / Rapid Spin
    Item: Lum Berry / Sitrus Berry

    What this set does (open)
    This set transforms the CAP from a Speedy pivot to a bulky attacker. With the Atk investment the CAP OHKOes Latios after SR with Payback (88.07 - 103.97%), max HP Politoed after SR with Power Whip (87.5 - 103.12%), and 2HKOes 252 HP Latias with Payback (65.93 - 78.02%). With Lum Berry it almost always survives two Specs Draco Meteor from Latios without SR (only 1.17% chance to get 2HKOed) and always lives two LO Draco Meteors from Latios after SR. With Sitrus Berry it obviously survives even two Specs DM after SR. This spread also walls LO Starmie, surviving even two LO Ice Beam after SR and OHKOing back with either Power Whip or Horn Leech (to OHKO with Horn Leech you need SR + 1 LO round). The Speed EVs allow the CAP to outspeed max Speed Timid Politoed and the rest are dumbed to HP and SpD for maximum special bulk. Finally the item options depends on whether you want to counter Latios better and spend less time healing, so go for Sitrus, or if you need the status immunity and insta heal, so go for LumRest.
  8. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
    is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Mar 29, 2009
    Final Submission

    HP: 85 311-374
    Atk: 80 176-196-259-284
    Def: 65 149-166-229-251
    SpA: 36 97-108-171-188
    SpD: 135 275-306-369-405
    Spe: 114 237-264-327-359

    PS: 141 (Good)
    SS: 72 (Poor)
    PT: 104 (Above Average)
    ST: 209 (Fantastic)
    BSR: 282 (Good)
    BST: 515


    This spread was designed with Forretress, Starmie, and Tentacruel in mind and is a sort of combination of the three (but tweaked a bit to account for our goals of targeting Lati@s and Politoed and fitting neatly into sun-based teams). I feel they are good Pokemon to draw inspiration from, as they all fulfill that pivoting role well and with unique applications, not to mention the Rapid Spin connection. From Tentacruel and Forretress, I picked up their "good enough" attacking stats and specialized defenses, while Starmie's influence bred a high Speed stat as a utility method. In molding the stats I had to consider their weaknesses as well: Forry is actually quite underwhelming for sun teams as its poor speed causes players to lose momentum almost instantaneously when it's out on the field, and Starmie lacks the bulk enough to switch into multiple attacks, despite its access to both recovery and Natural Cure. My aim with this spread was to patch up those issues and make a smart, well-built defensive utility Pokemon that could potentially give sun more synergistic options than Forretress/Donphan to Rapid Spin, or to give sun a defensive teammate that better suits its strategy of high speed and continuous momentum. You can call it "Starmie of the Sun" or "Tentacruel of the sun," which would both be accurate descriptions, but really this spread puts CAP somewhere in between.

    Offenses: 80/36/114

    Calcs (open)
    4 Atk EV CAP5 Pursuit/Crunch/Sucker Punch vs. 4/0 Latios: 57.6% - 68.2%
    "..." vs. 252/0 Latias: 43.4% - 51.6%
    "..." vs. 4/0 Gengar: 83.2% - 98.5% (85.5% - 101.5% w/ 32 Atk EVs)
    "..." vs. 0/0 Ninetales: 32.4% - 38%
    "..." vs. 252/120 Ninetales: 26.6% - 31.1%

    4 Atk EV CAP5 Power Whip vs. 252/252+ Politoed: 48.4% - 57.8%
    "..." vs. 252/0 Politoed: 70.8% - 84.4%
    "..." vs. 4/0 Politoed: 84.5% - 100.6%
    "..." vs. 4/0 Terrakion: 72.8% - 85.8%
    "..." vs. 180/0 Tyranitar: 51.8% - 61.1%
    "..." vs. 252/0 Tyranitar: 49.5% - 58.4%

    252 Atk EV CAP5 Pursuit/Crunch/Sucker Punch vs. 4/0 Latios: 75.5% - 89.4%
    "..." vs. 252/0 Latias: 56.6% - 67.6%
    "..." vs. 0/0 Ninetales: 41.8% - 49.5%
    "..." vs. 252/120 Ninetales: 29.4% - 35.1%

    252 Atk EV CAP5 Power Whip vs. 252/252+ Politoed: 64.1% - 75.5%
    "..." vs. 252/0 Politoed: 93.8% - 110.9%
    "..." vs. 4/0 Politoed: 111.8% - 132.3%
    "..." vs. 4/0 Terrakion: 95.1% - 113%
    "..." vs. 180/0 Tyranitar: 67.4% - 79.8%
    "..." vs. 252/0 Tyranitar: 64.4% - 76.2%

    The Attack is low compared to the OU metagame as a whole, but it threatens our three primary targets enough for a defensive pivot, enough to foil any of their plans of setting up or overwhelming CAP with sheer force (granted CAP holds a Sitrus or Lum Berry with Rest). The defenses and primary ability support the lower Atk by allowing CAP to tank even Specs Latios Draco Meteor with just 252 HP EVs (regardless of Stealth Rock). CAP can then either Rest before it strikes again at -2, or it can Pursuit for the 2HKO on a predicted switch. Bulky Latias is a bother for Jolly 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe spreads, but the damage calcs indicate that CAP can at the very least stall out its Recovers as it 3HKOs. Jolly 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe builds can cleanly 2HKO Latias while only taking 37.8% - 44.6% from +1 Dragon Pulse (at the cost of surviving Specs Latios with rocks up). This is a pretty fair trade-off, and should get players to make tough decisions on allocating EVs. I am assuming an absence of stat-boosting moves in the movepool, as that appears to be the consensus, so the 80 base Atk won't be overwhelming much of anything that isn't weak to its STABs.

    The Special Attack is functionally non-existent, only low enough to fit the established stat limits. It's not even enough to scare Scizor in the Sun with HP-Fire, so we won't have to worry about messing up our threatlist with a usable Hidden Power. It's lower than I'd like it to be for optics reasons, but competitively it fits our community desires. It's a dump stat, like everyone else's SpA, so it will facilitate Jolly, Impish, and Careful natures.

    Big Speed (open)
    As others have said, there is a certain advantage to outrunning the Latis as it relates to Harvest, even if CAP can't OHKO them. The main advantage of course is its utility on a defensive Pokemon, akin to Latias, Deoxys-D, Froslass, Fidgit, etc. With six weaknesses, notably to U-turn, and with the pressure of coming in on Latios time and again without a Dragon resist, CAP will certainly appreciate the breathing room that high speed provides to perform a support move or pick off stubborn, weakened foes. It may even have the chance to U-turn out first (should it get U-turn) on a U-turning switch-in and safely rotate to a teammate that resists it (an especially useful trait if CAP can Rest/Spin as the opponent switches in). It could also use the enticing Fast-Taunt/Encore to prevent opponents from setting up, should it get those moves.

    The Speed is all about defensive utility. As I said before, sun teams currently have only Forretress and Donphan to choose from as Rapid Spinners go, and both of them really frustrate the fast-paced sun strategy; they are slow, offensively underwhelming walls and are easy setup for opposing threats. As it stands, sun teams really have no options for a fast or specially bulky Rapid Spinner like Rain or weatherless teams have with Starmie and Tentacruel, who can both maintain momentum for their teammates and on a wide variety of teams. Drizzle teams don't even need spinners as badly as Sun, yet they can freely utilize just about every spinner in OU, in stark contrast to Drought teams. It's not that Forretress/Donphan are bad spinners in general, or that they're bad spinners for sun teams. They're like using Chansey on a HO team: they have a purpose and they do their jobs well, but they just don't fit in. I think CAP's potential as a Rapid Spinner is much greater if it can differentiate itself from the two of them in some significant way (in this case speed), towards offering sun teams a kind of utility pivot they've never been able to seriously consider before.

    Base 114 base Spe puts CAP at the high end of the metagame, but the stats clearly emphasize the defensive potential. With no investment, CAP sits at 264 Spe, just 2 points above Timid, non-Scarf Politoed (who I don't really want to be playing speed games with at all when EV investment could be better used elsewhere). This gives 252 HP / 252+ [Def/Atk/SpD] spreads some necessary viability in the lower Speed tiers. On the flip side, non-Jolly spreads max out at 327 Speed, which is a point shy of max-speed base 100s. In order to outrun the base 110s, it needs 224 EVs and a Jolly nature, freeing up 32 extra EVs.

    Defenses: 85/65/135

    Calcs (open)
    Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4/0 CAP: 84.6% - 100%
    "..." vs. 252/0 CAP: 70.6% - 83.4%
    "..." vs. 252/224 CAP: 59.6% - 70.6%
    Choice Specs Latios HP-Fire vs. 4/0 CAP: 57.1% - 67.3% (84.6% - 100% in sun)
    "..." vs. 252/0 CAP: 47.6% - 56.1% (70.6% - 83.4% in sun)
    "..." vs. 252/224 CAP: 40.1% - 47.6% (59.9% - 70.6% in sun)
    Choice Scarf Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4/0 CAP: 56.7% - 66.7%
    "..." vs. 252/0 CAP: 47.3% - 55.6%
    "..." vs. 252/224 CAP: 40.1% - 47.3%

    Modest Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 4/0 CAP: 65.4% - 77.6%
    "..." vs. 252/0 CAP: 54.5% - 64.7%
    "..." vs. 252/224 CAP: 46.5% - 55.1%
    Modest Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump in Rain vs. 4/0 CAP: 46.2% - 54.8%
    "..." vs. 252/0 CAP: 38.5% - 45.7%
    "..." vs. 252/224 CAP: 32.6% - 38.5%
    Defensive Politoed Ice Beam vs. 4/0 CAP: 31.4% - 37.2%
    "..." vs. 252/0 CAP: 26.2% - 31%
    "..." vs. 252/224 CAP: 21.9% - 26.2%

    Choice Scarf Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4/0 CAP5: 24% - 28.5% (35.9% - 42.3% in Rain)
    "..." vs. 252/0 CAP5: 20.1% - 23.8% (29.9% - 35.3% in Rain)
    "..." vs. 252/224 CAP5: 16.8% - 20.1% (25.4% - 29.9% in Rain)
    Choice Scarf Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252/0 CAP5: 104.8% - 124.1%
    "..." vs. 252/224 (Def) CAP5: 78.6% - 93%
    "..." vs. 252/252+ (Def) CAP5: 69.5% - 82.4%

    Offensive Ninetales Fire Blast in Sun vs. 252/0 CAP: 87.2% - 103.2%
    "..." vs. 252/224 CAP: 74.3% - 88.2%
    Defensive Ninetales Flamethrower in Sun vs. 4/0 CAP: 63.5% - 75%
    "..." vs. 252/0 CAP: 52.9% - 62.6%
    "..." vs. 252/224 CAP: 44.9% - 52.9%

    Timid Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252/224 CAP: 67.9% - 80.7% (101.6% - 120.3% in Sun)
    SpD Heatran Lava Plume vs. 4/0 CAP: 53.8% - 64.1% (80.8% - 94.9% in sun)
    "..." vs. 252/0 CAP: 44.9% - 53.5% (67.4% - 79.1% in sun)
    "..." vs. 252/224 CAP: 38.5% - 45.5% (56.7% - 67.4% in sun)

    Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4/0 CAP: 73.4% - 86.9%
    "..." vs. 252/0 CAP: 61.2% - 72.5%
    "..." vs. 252/224 CAP: 46% - 54.5%

    Adamant LO Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 4/0 CAP: 52.9% - 62.5%
    "..." vs. 252/0 CAP: 44.1% - 52.1%
    "..." vs. 252/224 CAP: 33.2% - 39.3%
    Adamant LO Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4/0 CAP: 85.3% - 100.6%
    "..." vs. 252/0 CAP: 71.1% - 84%
    "..." vs. 252/224 CAP: 53.5% - 63.1%

    Jolly LO Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4/0 CAP: 116% - 137.2%
    "..." vs. 252/0 CAP: 96.8% - 114.4%
    "..." vs. 252/224 CAP: 72.2% - 85.6%

    Choice Scarf Salamence Outrage vs. 4/0 CAP: 92.3% - 108.7%
    "..." vs. 252/0 CAP: 77% - 90.6%
    "..." vs. 252/224 CAP: 57.2% - 67.6%

    I've modeled the defenses after Tentacruel mostly, with a minuscule uptick in HP and a moderate boost to SpD. The defenses are highly specialized, which is to be expected. As you can see from the calculations, this CAP is plenty vulnerable on the physical side of things (as per the threatlist), and the SpD isn't so ungodly that it is impervious to powerful special blows. I chose a lower HP stat in order to emphasize the difference between tanking physical and special blows, and the low Def keeps CAP's speed in check with its vulnerability to common priority. If you'll recall the offensive calcs, there is a dramatic difference between 252 HP / 252 Spe spreads and 252 Atk / 252 Spe builds. Here in the defenses, we see that same phenomenon occurring; due to the lower HP, CAP gets much more defensively out of 252 HP EVs, which will cost Atk or Spe in order to achieve.


    I fully understand that I am paddling upstream with this spread, but I really do think a faster pivot would play to sun's advantages better than a slow spread. Furthermore, I believe that the top-tier threats we've accepted to become checks/counters to CAP, along with the defensive pressure of six weaknesses and pivoting through rain and Dragons will make it difficult for slow, wallish spreads to achieve as much utility beyond the initial switch-in.
  9. Nyktos

    Nyktos Custom Loser Title

    Aug 27, 2008
    This is a dangerous way of thinking. We've seen what happens when you go around asking "why not?" rather than "why?" about everything. That was Aurumoth.

    (Note that I am trying to suggest that there are no good arguments in favour of high speed, or that high speed will necessarily make CAP 5 broken. Just that this particular argument is very flawed.)

    On an unrelated note, I have now marked my submission as final. I may still add more calcs or expand further on my justifications, but the actual stats are not going to change.

    Oh, and I added Korski's spread to the pastebin.
  10. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Self-proclaimed DEAD king
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Nov 15, 2006
    The main difference is that we aren't trying to make it generally better, but to make it better at dealing with what it needs to already. As an example, your spread has a 81.64% chance to be 2HKO'd by Specs DM from Latios (actually less due to the SpA drop); that's the same damage HP Fire does in Sun, which means Latios still has a good chance of defeating CAP5, without SR even. Alexwolf's spread, on the other hand, is always 2HKO'd but is faster and could do something, anything before dying. Or maybe it could switch out and, at <33% HP, come back later at some weak special move and use Rest; if your spread ever thought of switching out, it would come back with more health, yes, but would have fewer chances of healing off that damage.
  11. inanimate blob

    inanimate blob

    May 31, 2011
    This puts it in a way, for some reason, that I'm able to understand the need for a higher Speed. Given the option to either deal two hits instead of one, or Rest to be able take yet another hit.

    Additionally, there would still be (EDIT:) many solid counters who could either destroy with priority, such as Conkeldurr, defend with resisting both STABs, like Heatran, or outspeed with a Choice Scarf, like perhaps Terrakion.
  12. Nyktos

    Nyktos Custom Loser Title

    Aug 27, 2008
    Well, as I said, I wasn't trying to address all the arguments in favour of high speed in that post (I certainly would've used more than three sentences if that was my goal) but simply the attitude of "we might not need it, but we might as well add it anyway" that alexwolf was expressing. I do believe there are arguments in favour of high speed that have merit. Your HP Fire example actually shows a way that low speed may be inadequate rather than simply showing how high speed makes us better.

    And, well, I agree. Specs Latios HP Fire really sucks for every spread, but it sucks a little less for the fast ones. The thing is, "a little less" really means "a little" here. It would be one thing if high speed spreads could actually beat Latios when it used HP Fire. In that case, I would likely agree that high speed is better. However, all it does is make mispredictions a little less costly. You can get a spin off or deal some damage to Latios before being KO'd. But you are still KO'd unless Latios has taken a bunch of prior damage. Really, against Specs Lations with HP Fire, you're probably better off switching in Heatran than CAP 5, regardless of stats. So while it's a regrettable situation all around, I don't think it justifies high speed.
  13. BrianFantana


    Jan 30, 2013
    It's worth noting that CAP5s highly or fully invested in HP/SpD+ with ST ratings around the 235/240 mark running Sitrus Berries (or Enigma/Occa berries, I guess) are even covered against sun-boosted HP Fires - which won't 2HKO out of Sun and will trigger the Sitrus in it. As a bonus, depending on the specific ST rating CAP5 might actually have the liberty to drop a couple of SpD EVs to ensure that HP Fire brings it into Sitrus range, freeing them up for Attack or Speed.

    Faster CAP5s with STs around the 200 mark can avoid the HP Fire 2HKO with Sitrus berries too - but this necessitates quite a bit of investment in both HP and SpD, which completely defeats the purpose of the extra speed in the first place. Occa sets would do the trick, but it's hard to imagine them being widely used.

    In that sense, high Special bulk makes CAP5 a more complete Lati@s check than high Speed - whereas fast CAP5s fully invested in speed can be overcome by a Latios running the right (commonly used and competitively viable) move in the Sun, those that tend towards outright walling can potentially stop it in its tracks, sponging its entire movepool bar gimmicks like HP Bug. So I think brute tankiness trumps speed as far as countering Latios is concerned.
  14. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Self-proclaimed DEAD king
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Nov 15, 2006
    Oh, I know you weren't trying that. I was posting on alexwolf's defense because I thought he meant "doing those things more efficiently" with its "do them better" talk but I re-read it and I can see it was really ambiguous at best. Nevermind then.

    You make a good point in that paragraph, but I just want to reiterate what I said: HP Fire Latios is a bitch and no spread can really win it alone (...maybe a fast spread with Rain D--nah), but a fast CAP5 would have more chances to Rest off that damage if surprised by Latios. A fast CAP5 may take more damage per turn than a slow spread, but a slow spread would need to take two moves before doing its thing most of the time. That alone steals a lot of opportunities for CAP5 to switch in; say, if both mons were at 40% HP and the opponent did 20% min to Slow and 30% to Fast (example: yours and alexwolf's spreads, you take 47% min from Specs DM and his takes 66%; roughly a 50% difference), Fast would have the advantage because it would take more the first turn, but would take nothing the following one and then Rest it all, only to come back later and keep pivoting and killing Toeds and (maybe) spinning and such.

    Then there's also Korski's slowmon-killing-momentum argument, but he said it more concisely then I'd ever do.

    And, in fact, while writing this, I realized there *is* a way. Occa Berry means no Latios ever kills any of the proposed spreads here, short of a CH. I don't know if Occa would really compensate losing LumRest (maybe if we give it Synthesis???), but the opportunity is there, I guess...

    EDIT-- ...or Sitrus.
  15. alexwolf

    alexwolf lurks in the shadows
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 3, 2009
    You are right that with Sitrus Berry and enough special bulk the CAP could handle even Sun HP Fire from Latios. However, i would prefer the CAP to be able to handle Latios with LumRest too, and this is one of the reasons i want such a fast spread. RestLum not only gives us reliable recovery that we can completely control, it also gives us status immunity, which is very precious for a Pokemon so weak to residual damage as this one. Don't forget it is one of the few defensive Pokemon that won't use Leftovers. With Sitrus Berry and a burn, as well as SR on the field, the CAP loses 25% of its health just for switching into whatever it wants to, and of 'course it suffers the burn effect, which makes it offensively useless. Factor in potential sand damage and you will realize that the residual damage rack up veeery fast. Not to mention that, with Sitrus Berry, in order to heal you must be below 50% health which won't always be possible and won't always be in your control. If for example your burned CAP wanted to switch into Politoed, but the opponent double switched on something that scares the CAP out thus forcing you out, the CAP just lost 25% of its health. Next time it probably won't be able to avoid whatever 2HKO from a strong special attacker you want it to, as it takes 25% just when switching in, and the damage from the two special attacks you want it to switch into. Not even Sitrus can save you from so much damage.

    For this reason i would prefer to make a spread that favors the use of Lum Berry, which greatly increases the tanking potential of the CAP, and prevents any harmful status from ruining the CAP's day.

    Also sorry guys if my post was ambiguous, i meant what Mario with Lasers said, which is ''doing those specific things we want it to better''. And thx MWL for the good examples you provided, because as it seems i am not the best at explaining things :D
  16. Birkal

    Birkal caw
    is a member of the Site Staffis an Artistis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Oct 12, 2010
    If anything, I consider this a case against why we'd want to beat Latios with LumRest. Lum Berry is already ridiculously good on its own without Rest, and I think CAP 5 should have to pay some sort of price for running that as its primary set. The idea that I'm having is that CAP 5 needs to pick and choose its battles rather than have it all at once, which I think would bring around a broken Pokemon. We're not trying to create a good Overused Pokemon, we're trying to create a Pokemon that fulfills our concept.

    With that being said, I don't understand all of this obsessing over Latios. If you remember back to threats discussion, the biggest target in everyone's mind was SubCM Latias. Thanks to its ability and typing, CAP 5 destroys pretty much all variants of that Pokemon, which is incredibly beneficial to sun teams. I think giving it the ability to beat Latios one hundred percent of the time is just begging for the creation of a broken Pokemon. Yes, let's give CAP 5 some sets that can beat Latios. On my spread, for example, you can easily beat most sets with Sitrus Berry and some special defense investment. Let's stop trying to make every set of CAP 5 beat Latios, because at this point, it's getting kind of ridiculous. Let the sun team user pick if it needs to beat Latios. If that's the case, it'll run a set that beats it. If not, they're run a different set, probably with LumRest. As soon as you let CAP 5 beat Latios all of the time, you've now just made a good Pokemon that can be used on any team, rather than one that specifically appeals to the needs of a sun team.
  17. Stratos

    Stratos Banned deucer.

    Aug 26, 2010
    My description has been updated and the tag changed to "final submission!" main points to note: I made the offensive set unable to fully counter the latis, and the rapid spinning set able to stay in on most things that give sun teams trouble (something that troubled me about many of the other spreads was how they completely forgot rapid spin in their considerations)
  18. Agile Turtle

    Agile Turtle formerly aqueous tortoise

    Feb 26, 2013
    Finished my spread! It is on page 2. What do you guys think of it? Nyktos, you can replace my old one with this new spread on your pastebin. Thanks for those in irc who have helped me out with it.

    To those arguing about berries to use, I think CAP5 should be able to survive HP fires and stuff with whatever berry it holds. Even if its a haban berry, which is completely useless to CAP5. It should not depend on a certain kind of berry to survive attacks.

    Anyway, see you all later and thanks again.
  19. capefeather

    capefeather toot
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 26, 2009
    I have finalized my submission. I've done a bunch of rearrangement and expansion of my explanations, including more damage calculations for different EV/nature spreads.

    I couldn't agree more.
  20. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    May 28, 2010
    Final Submission

    HP: 90
    DEF: 60
    SpA: 45
    SpD: 130
    SPE: 75

    PS: 132.263
    SS: 72.5607

    BST: 500
    Overall BSR: 274.007


    For a quick look, read the Italics and the TL;DR. Otherwise, please read it in entirety... calcs and all. Note the difference in outcomes attained at each level of Special Bulkiness and Attack to see how this spread in particular encourages gradations in EV spreads.


    HP: As DarkSlay (whose format I shamelessly have "borrowed") pointed out in his submission, "CAP projects in the past have predominantly featured projects with a high level of HP, due to the general 'overall' bulk the CAP receives as a result." As he further points out, "increasing the individual defensive stats, especially in cases where we're looking for polarization" is an option, and a good one at that. And just as DarkSlay came to the conclusion that a good, but sub-100 HP Stat was ideal, so too did I. 90 HP is a good mid-level bulk base to work on, enabling low PT and high ST with ease.

    ATK: We have pretty much come to a consensus on reasonably high attack, with the exception of those constrained by the PS limit and their choice of high speed. An Attack stat of 100 is sufficient to threaten essentially every Pokemon that CAP5 is targeting. At the same time, 100 Attack avoids being so high that CAP5 is likely to sweep in anyway. The goal should be uninvested hits still doing enough damage to make CAP5 a tank and not a wall that sits and does nothing.

    Here are some STAB calculations against some of our biggest targets:
    Attack Calcs (Neutral Nature) (open)
    0 EV's
    Crunch/Pursuit/Sucker Punch (80 BP):
    4/0 Latios: 68.21 - 81.45% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    252/4 Latios: 56.59 - 67.58% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    4/0 Latias: 62.25 - 74.17% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    252/0 Latias: 51.64 - 61.53% (guaranteed 2HKO after SR even with Lefties, 97.66% chance to 2HKO even with Lefties and without SR)
    4/0 Gengar: 99.23 - 117.55% (93.75% chance to OHKO)
    0/4 Thundurus-T: 38.46 - 45.48% (3HKO, guaranteed 2HKO after SR)
    248/216+ Jellicent: 40.19 - 47.64% (3.13% chance to 2HKO after SR and Lefties, enough to guarantee the 2HKO after SR and Lefties when followed up by Power Whip, and a 78.52% chance to 2HKO after Lefties when followed up by a Power Whip even without SR)
    0/0 Starmie: 75.86 - 89.65% (guaranteed 2HKO, 12.5% chance to OHKO after SR)
    252/0 Starmie: 61.11 - 72.22% (guaranteed 2HKO)

    Power Whip:
    252/0 Politoed: 84.89 - 100.52% (guaranteed 2HKO, 87.5% chance to OHKO after SR)
    252/252+ Politoed: 58.33 - 69.27% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    184/4 Rotom-W: 84.32 - 100.34% (6.25% chance to OHKO, 81.25% chance to OHKO after SR)
    4/0 Rotom-W: 101.65 - 119.83% (guaranteed OHKO)
    248/0 Rotom-W: 81.18 - 95.7% (guaranteed 2HKO, 56.25% chance to OHKO after SR)
    248/216+ Jellicent: 60.04 - 71.46% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    4/0 Jolteon: 71.95 - 84.5% (guaranteed 2HKO)

    252 EV's
    Crunch/Pursuit/Sucker Punch (80 BP):
    4/0 Latios: 87.41 - 103.31% (18.75% chance to OHKO, 93.75% after SR)
    252/4 Latios: 71.42 - 84.61% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    4/0 Latias: 79.47 - 94.03% (guaranteed 2HKO, 43.75% to OHKO after SR)
    252/0 Latias: 65.93 - 78.02% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    4/0 Gengar: 125.95 - 148.85% (guaranteed OHKO)
    0/4 Thundurus-T: 48.49 - 57.52% (94.53% chance to 2HKO, guaranteed after SR)
    248/216+ Jellicent: 50.62 - 60.04% (86.72% chance to 2HKO after Lefties, guaranteed 2HKO after SR)
    0/0 Starmie: 96.55 - 113.4% (75% chance to OHKO, guaranteed OHKO after SR)
    252/0 Starmie: 77.77 - 91.35% (guaranteed 2HKO, 31.25% chance to OHKO after SR)

    Power Whip:
    252/0 Politoed: 108.33 - 128.12% (guaranteed OHKO)
    252/252+ Politoed: 73.95 - 87.5% (guaranteed 2HKO, 6.25% chance to OHKO after SR)
    184/4 Rotom-W: 107.31 - 127.52% (guaranteed OHKO)
    248/0 Rotom-W: 101.65 - 120.79% (guaranteed OHKO)
    248/216+ Jellicent: 75.93 - 89.82% (guaranteed 2HKO, 18.75% chance to OHKO after SR)
    4/0 Jolteon: 90.77 - 106.64% (43.75% chance to OHKO, guaranteed OHKO after SR)

    In short, 100 Attack is an optimal point. When invested, the attack needn't be any higher to grab the vast majority of guaranteed OHKOs/2HKOs on the things it should be targeting. It already gets them. When uninvested, it still nabs the 2HKOs on everything it needs to 2HKO. Any further attack beyond base 100 only makes CAP5 better in general, and not better for its concept.

    DEF: Again, agreeing with the consensus on low physical bulk. We want to be checked by things like Scizor and Breloom and random Outrages, etc. 60 Defense accomplishes that. 90/60 Physical defense is nothing to write home about. Here's a few calcs to back up my point:
    Defense Calcs (Neutral Nature) (open)
    0 HP
    CBScizor's Bullet Punch: 105.51 - 124.13% (guaranteed OHKO)
    OU Physical Attacker Breloom's Mach Punch: 166.89 - 196.2% (guaranteed OHKO)
    Bulk Up Conkeldurr's Mach Punch (unboosted): 99.31 - 116.55% (93.75% chance to OHKO, guaranteed after SR)
    Choice Scarf Terrakion's Stone Edge: 105.51 - 124.48% (guaranteed OHKO)

    252 HP
    CBScizor's Bullet Punch: 86.68 - 101.98% (12.5% chance to OHKO, 93.75% after SR)
    OU Physical Attacker Breloom's Mach Punch: 137.11 - 161.18% (guaranteed OHKO)
    Bulk Up Conkeldurr's Mach Punch (unboosted): 81.58 - 95.75% (50% chance to OHKO after SR)
    Choice Scarf Terrakion's Stone Edge: 86.68 - 102.26% (18.75% chance to OHKO, 93.75% after SR)

    60 Defense is an ideal pairing for 90 HP, as it lies in an area where the likely 252 HP investment makes little difference to the most important Physical attacks CAP5 fears, as long as SR is up. The Terrakion calculation was included as it shows that Terrakion can afford to "mispredict" a Venusaur or Gengar (or otherwise unfriendly to Close Combat) switch in. The Stone Edge will still be massively threatening, even perhaps an OHKO

    SpA: Yay! A boring section with no calcs needed, though I'll throw a few in just for kicks. 45 Special Attack is laughable. How laughable?

    Outside of Sun, with 252 Sp Atk EVs, a boosting Nature, and a Life Orb, CAP5 fails to OHKO Scizor with HP Fire. (In Sun this does OHKO, but so would anything...) For a more likely scenario, in Sun, but with no Sp Atk EVs, a neutral Nature, and a Berry, CAP5 deals 57.14 - 67.63% to Scizor. Moreover, it fails to even guarantee a 3HKO on standard Ferrothorn.

    45 Sp Atk may look "higher" than many other options. But it's entirely optical and placed that "high" so that it looks more realistic. It's still pathetic. And remember... Scizor has an all but guaranteed OHKO on you after SR, even if you are running 252 HP EVs, so this HP Fire nonsense only even would matter on a predicted switch-in.

    SpD: Now for the business. 130 is obviously pretty big, but we've all agreed it needs to be up there. Our targets are Special Attackers, so Special Defense is needed. Our Grass typing, along with the fact that we aim to be used in Sun, already help against the many Water Special Attackers in the tier, as well as Jolteon and Thundurus-T. We are also protected from Psyshocks targeting our weak Defense by our Dark typing. Still, we need to be prepared to eat a variety of Special attacks, from Dragon Pulses and Draco Meteors to Ice Beams and... well mostly that's it. We also need to be situated at a point where we don't go overboard. CAP5 has no business eating Fire moves, for example, (unless Rain intervenes). Harvest inevitably plays in with these calcs and make them very obnoxious to do. LumRest and Sitrus are both viable options in various scenarios, along with everything random like Haban or Enigma Berries. Calculations will be provided at 0/0 Bulk, 252/0 Bulk, and 252/252+ Bulk:

    Special Defensive Calculations (Neutral Nature (open)
    NOTE: Fire Attacks will all be noted in the Sun. Obviously they are weaker in other weathers

    Our Targets:
    Choice Specs Latios' Draco Meteor/Sun-boosted HP Fire: 85.04 - 100.31% (6.25% chance to OHKO, 81.25% after SR)
    Offensive Latios' Draco Meteor/Sun-Boosted HP Fire: 74.14 - 87.53% (guaranteed 2HKO, 6.25% chance to OHKO after SR)
    DS Latios' Dragon Pulse: 30.21 - 35.82% (guaranteed 3HKO after SR, easily overcome by any Berry strategy)
    Choice Scarf Latios' Draco Meteor/Sun-Boosted HP Fire: 57 - 67.28% (not a guaranteed 2HKO after the -2, though it is after SR)
    Offensive Latias' Draco Meteor/Sun-Boosted HP Fire: 65.73 - 77.88% (almost guaranteed 2HKO even with the -2)
    CM Latias' Sun-Boosted HP Fire: 41.74 - 49.22% (80.08% chance to 2HKO after SR)
    Life Orb Gengar's Focus Blast: 85.04 - 100.31% (6.25% chance to OHKO, 81.25% after SR)
    Lefties Gengar's Focus Blast: 65.42 - 77.25% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    Specs Politoed's Focus Blast: 83.48 - 98.44% (guaranteed 2HKO, 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
    Specs Politoed's Ice Beam: 66.04 - 77.88% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    Defensive Politoed's Ice Beam: 31.77 - 37.38% (guaranteed 3HKO after SR)
    Scarf Rotom-W's Hidden Power Ice: 33.02 - 39.25% (guaranteed 3HKO after SR)
    Specs Jolteon's HP Ice: 50.46 - 59.81% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    LO Jolteon's HP Ice: 44.54 - 52.64% (19.14% chance to 2HKO, guaranteed after SR)

    Our Threats:
    TormenTran's or Specially Defensive Heatran's Sun-Boosted Lava Plume: 80.99 - 95.95% (guaranteed 2HKO, 56.25% chance of OHKO after SR)
    Any other Heatran-based common Sun-Boosted Fire move, on any set: guaranteed OHKO.
    Defensive Ninetales' Flamethrower: 64.17 - 76.63% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    Offensive Ninetales' Fire Blast: 106.54 - 125.85% (guaranteed OHKO)

    Our Targets:
    Choice Specs Latios' Draco Meteor/Sun-boosted HP Fire: 71.35 - 84.37% (guaranteed 2HKO, even after the -2)
    Offensive Latios' Draco Meteor/Sun-Boosted HP Fire: 62.23 - 73.69% (excellent chance to 2HKO after the -2, guaranteed after SR)
    DS Latios' Dragon Pulse: 25.26 - 29.94% (guaranteed 4HKO, easily overcome by any Berry strategy)
    Choice Scarf Latios' Draco Meteor/Sun-Boosted HP Fire: 47.91 - 56.77% (not a 2HKO after the -2, even with SR)
    Offensive Latias' Draco Meteor/Sun-Boosted HP Fire: 55.46 - 65.62% (not a 2HKO after -2, though possible if after SR)
    CM Latias' Sun-Boosted HP Fire: 34.89 - 41.14% (guaranteed 3HKO)
    Life Orb Gengar's Focus Blast: 71.09 - 83.85% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    Lefties Gengar's Focus Blast: 54.68 - 64.58% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    Specs Politoed's Focus Blast: 69.79 - 82.29% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    Specs Politoed's Ice Beam: 55.2 - 65.1% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    Defensive Politoed's Ice Beam: 26.56 - 31.25% (38.31% chance to 3HKO after SR)
    Scarf Rotom-W's Hidden Power Ice: 27.6 - 32.81% (89.36% chance to 3HKO after SR)
    Specs Jolteon's HP Ice: 42.18 - 50% (0.39% chance to 2HKO, 91.8% after SR)
    LO Jolteon's HP Ice: 37.23 - 44.01% (guaranteed 3HKO, 0.39% chance to 2HKO after SR)

    Our Threats:
    TormenTran's or Specially Defensive Heatran's Sun-Boosted Lava Plume: 67.7 - 80.2% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    Any other Heatran-based common Fire move, on any set: guaranteed OHKO after SR (Timid Flamethrowers require SR, all others OHKO).
    Defensive Ninetales' Flamethrower: 53.64 - 64.06% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    Offensive Ninetales' Fire Blast: 89.06 - 105.2% (37.5% chance to OHKO, guaranteed after SR)

    Our Targets:
    Choice Specs Latios' Draco Meteor/Sun-boosted HP Fire: 54.16 - 64.06% (not a 2HKO after the -2, not even guaranteed with SR)
    Offensive Latios' Draco Meteor/Sun-Boosted HP Fire: 46.61 - 55.46% (not a 2HKO after the -2 even with SR)
    DS Latios' Dragon Pulse: 19.01 - 22.65% (possible 4HKO after SR, easily overcome by any Berry strategy)
    Choice Scarf Latios' Draco Meteor/Sun-Boosted HP Fire: 35.93 - 42.7% (even the HP Fire does not 2HKO after SR)
    Offensive Latias' Draco Meteor/Sun-Boosted HP Fire: 41.92 - 49.47% (Even HP Fire fails to 2HKO without SR, 81.64% chance with SR)
    CM Latias' Sun-Boosted HP Fire: 26.56 - 31.25% (38.31% chance to 3HKO after SR)
    Life Orb Gengar's Focus Blast: 53.38 - 63.02% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    Lefties Gengar's Focus Blast: 41.14 - 48.43% (not a 2HKO without SR, 70.31% chance to 2HKO with SR)
    Specs Politoed's Focus Blast: 52.6 - 61.97% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    Specs Politoed's Ice Beam: 41.14 - 48.95% (not a 2HKO without SR, 78.52% chance to 2HKO after SR)
    Defensive Politoed's Ice Beam: 19.79 - 23.43% (possible 4HKO after SR)
    Scarf Rotom-W's Hidden Power Ice: 20.83 - 25% (possible 4HKO after SR)
    Specs Jolteon's HP Ice: 32.29 - 38.02% (guaranteed 3HKO after SR)
    LO Jolteon's HP Ice: 27.86 - 33.07% (guaranteed 4HKO, 94.7% chance to 3HKO after SR)

    Our Threats:
    TormenTran's or Specially Defensive Heatran's Sun-Boosted Lava Plume: 51.56 - 60.93% (guaranteed 2HKO)
    Heatran's Modest Sun-Boosted Fire Blasts, on any set: (guaranteed OHKO)
    Heatran's Timid Sun-Boosted Fire Blasts, on any set: (50% chance to OHKO, guaranteed after SR)
    Heatran's Modest Sun-Boosted Flamethrowers, on any set: (guaranteed 2HKO, 50% chance to OHKO after SR)
    Heatran's Timid Sun-Boosted Flamethrowers, on any set: (guaranteed 2HKO)
    Defensive Ninetales' Flamethrower: 41.14 - 48.95% (guaranteed 3HKO, 78.91% chance to 2HKO after SR)
    Offensive Ninetales' Fire Blast: 67.18 - 79.68% (guaranteed 2HKO)

    Seeing HP set at 90, setting Special Bulk at 130 is optimal for the project. It sets a bar where investment actually accomplishes a good deal and is required to bypass certain threats. Gradations along this investment can be made to check/counter various threats. The only thing that is impossible to account for perfectly that some may like to account for is Specs Latios, though a fully invested CAP5 avoids the guaranteed 2HKO from Specs Draco Meteor, even after SR. Increasing Special Defense any further disincentivizes the need to invest in Special Bulk in order to surpass powerful threats like Latios. Indeed as it stands, max/max+ bulk enables CAP5 to surpass every single thing that it would like to surpass with a LumRest set under Sun, even when switching into SR, either with the aforementioned LumRest, Sucker Punch, or Power Whip. Placing Special Defense at 130 puts the onus on the user of CAP5 to optimize the Special Bulkiness to best suit his or her team's needs, rather than having such high Special Bulkiness at the start that investing in Attack or Speed is even an option when attempting to take on things like Latios.

    SPE: Many arguments have been made back and forth about speed. All I can say is that 75 Speed naturally puts us ahead of Politoed, and that's about it of the things that matter. 75 Speed is sufficiently ahead of Politoed too that it requires Politoed to speed creep at least somewhat substantially (an extra 40 EVs) to surpass and gain the easier 2HKO that does not fear Power Whip.

    There is no significant difference in my mind between any speed that surpasses Politoed and fails to surpass the OU "midpoint" of 100. With that being said, I see very little reason to outspeed Rotom-W. Yes, keeping Volt-Switch from happening is nice, as it means Rotom-W must simply switch out. But Volt Switch is dealing approximately no damage and only serves to help Player 1 scout Player 2's potential double switch to Dugtrio as Player 1 intended to bring in Heatran. This benefit is nice, but circumstantial and relies entirely on prediction and situation. The other benefit is that it avoids potential Will-o-Wisps. However, CAP5 loves the Sun and will likely be running LumRest a good deal of the time, making this less useful.

    I do appreciate its pluses, but I fear the minuses of outspeeding Gyarados, Venusaur outside of the Sun, and Dragonite are unnecessary. Moreover, this level of 87+ enables CAP5 to more easily run offensive sets and catch things like Specially Defensive Celebi with a Crunch before being hit by a U-Turn. Basically, I view these extra points in Speed largely unnecessary.

    For similar reasons, I dislike a particularly fast spread. I feel it grants CAP5 far too high flexibility for what it needs to accomplish. CAP5 should need to be tailored to do what it needs to do. High speed makes a one-size fits all set of LumRest much more likely to be used. Low variety in creativity is not what the CAPmmunity aimed for when we picked Harvest. I honestly feel this is an attempt of Chlorophyll adherents to get back what they missed out on at the ability stage. It's not necessary with Harvest. As has been mentioned before, the question to ask is "WHY?" not "WHY NOT?" I fail to see why CAP5 needs high speed, so I am therefore opposed to it.

    For the slow spreads, I feel underspeeding Politoed is detrimental to the accomplishment of our concept. We wish to make life harder on Water types. Well, the most used of them all is Politoed. And like it or not, even with Max/Max+ investment, many spreads, mine included, are 2HKOed by Focus Blast. Many are 2HKOed by Ice Beam as well. And of course SR factors into these calculations too. Essentially, underspeeding Politoed requires such massive bulk that I was unwilling to give CAP5. Therefore, I am unpersuaded by a slow spread.

    Show Hide

    • This spread requires the user to customize Special Bulk to check/counter whatever threats are most threatening. Uninvested Attack is strong enough to threaten many things in need of threatening. EVs freed up from unneeded bulk (depending on team needs) can aid in the effort against threats not sufficiently covered when Attack is uninvested.
    • HP: 90. A good base to build from when desiring highly varied Physical and Special bulk.
    • Atk: 100. Again, a good base. With investment or without, and with gradations between CAP5 will net desired OHKOs and 2HKOs.
    • Def: 60. Well below average. Low enough that many common attacks OHKO or OHKO after SR.
    • SpA: 45. CAP5 is not going to have a competitively viable Special Attack.
    • SpD: 130. High but not too high. The only particularly common special thing that potentially threatens us that we'd like to not is Specs Latios, but even that fails to nab the guaranteed 2HKO with Draco Meteor after SR.
    • Spe: 75. Lower than Politoed or higher than Latios is either bad in the first case or unnecessary in the second. Either way, both are bad for the concept. Middling speeds between 71 and 99 all make very little difference to me. Still, as I view the extra speed found in base 87+ spreads unnecessary, I see them as unneeded benefits to CAP5 that potentially distract from the concept.
  21. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight RIP DryPass Vaporeon
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    CAP Head Mod

    May 27, 2005
    I've updated my spread with an alternate one built around LumRest that is more offensive, along with an explanation of why and how it could be used and the differences between LumRest and the other spread.

    In general I appreciate all the work the other stat submitters have put into their spreads. I tend not to focus on other spreads since I'm usually focused on expanding/enhancing mine and taking in criticism - but I think we have a good array of options here from fast and less bulky to slow and very bulky, to my spread which is in-between and tries to draw a very fine line between being good competitively and being overpowered. I think I have achieved that goal, or come as close as possible to it.

    I am slightly concerned that my sample sets include some more niche varieties of STAB, but overall I think we're creating a CAP to fill a niche, and therefore it is justified to make arguments on that basis - there are of course no guarantees, but better to put a picture in the voter's mind then be too cautious.
  22. Geodude6

    Geodude6 Look at my shiny CT!

    Oct 7, 2011
    WIP - Justification coming later

    Stats at Lv. 100:
    HP: 100/--/310/404/--
    Atk: 100/185/205/299/328
    Def: 80/149/165/259/284
    SpA: 10/23/25/119/130
    SpD: 140/257/285/379/416
    Spe: 85/158/175/269/295
    BST: 515
  23. erisia

    erisia nyoen wnt an popsicel
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Nov 29, 2011
    My spread's been finalised at last, the only thing i would change is the SpA but that's just for optics reasons. It's quite a bit different from a lot of the spreads on here, most notably in that it's quite physically frail, so if you're interested, feel free to have a look on the first page for my submission.

    Other submissions I like include Birkal's, which has some really good justification for its Speed and Special Tankiness, and Nyktos', which has enough offensive power to be threatening both with and without investment, which is great considering its very low Speed.
  24. Birkal

    Birkal caw
    is a member of the Site Staffis an Artistis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Oct 12, 2010
    Posting to say that ginganinja and I have put our stat spread into Final Submission; you can read all about it here. Through doing these calculations, I just want to note that CAP 5 is an incredible wall. With Harvest, it can address some very specific needs for any team. You know a Pokemon is good when it can straight up tank Kyurem-W Choice Specs Blizzard (Yache), or take on Deoxys-A with Hidden Power Fire / Superpower in the sun without any resist berry. CAP 5 has the potential to be ridiculously good, and I'd argue that our spread is very conservative. It boggles my mind that people want to take that kind of bulk and give it massive Speed and Attack stats. It screams not only a bulky sweeper, but also a straight up broken Pokemon.

    I beg everyone to consider some restraint when voting on these spreads. We will fail the concept if we give CAP 5 great stats all around. At that point, it will be just a generically good Pokemon that can be used on any team. With restraint (like our spread), it delegates CAP 5 to a specific role: defensive pivot on a sun team.
  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf lurks in the shadows
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 3, 2009
    I don't believe it is bad to make the LumRest set the CAP's best one. Sitrus Berry can still be used on teams that don't want to spend time healing, or that want to avoid the 2HKOs from really strong Pokemon, or even for teams that attempt to ToxicStall with Sub + Sitrus, but it doesn't have to be equally viable with the LumRest set. Likewise a spread can be build to support Sitrus Berry better, and there is nothing wrong with this too.

    As long as we make the stat spread with the goal to allow the CAP to succeed in the concept we want it to, and not be an all around good Pokemon, then we will be fine, even if LumRest proves to be the best and most used set. For example even with high Speed and LumRest at its disposal the CAP still has over ten counters in OU, as well as a dozen of checks and revenge killers, and is in general threatened by more than half of the OU. Also, even with high Speed, the CAP remains a supporter designed for sun teams, as there are simply better spinners or special pivots to use on rain and sand teams. Rain teams have Starmie and Tentacruel which are way better spinners in rain that the CAP is (in rain) and they have much better special pivots too (Jirachi, Ferrothorn, Celebi). Sand teams can't really use the CAP to its full potential as they either have to use it with Lefties and give up the benefits of Harvest, being left with no recovery and a mediocre Attack stat that can't really threaten much, even when invested. Or if they chose to use a Berry on the CAP on a sand team, well they just have to deal with the unreliability of the CAP's recovery and status healing, as well as the fact that without Lefites the CAP will be very easily worn down by SR + sand.

    You say that a Pokemon able to counter Latios 100% of the time (which my spread can't btw when using LumRest as HP Fire 2HKOes in sun, and Trick cripples) is very likely to be broken, and that such a Pokemon can be used in many kind of teams, not only sun teams. I already addressed why the CAP will have difficulties fitting on other weather teams, and i also believe that i exaplined why the CAP will not even come close to beng broken, imo, due to the fact that it is easy to wall, set-up on, kill with physical moves, and wear down with passive damage when using LumRest.

    Lastly, you ask me why is so much focus given to Latios. Well it is not. Latios was just an example of the major threats we want to cover. High Speed really helps against anything the CAP wants to handle, including Specs Politoed and Sheer Force Landorus, so Latios was just an example to illustrate how 112 Speed helps the CAP to fulfill the role we want it to better, without making it an all around better Pokemon.

    All in all, i don't see why basing a stat spread to make the CAP's better set the one featuring the LumRest strategy is a bad thing, especially when the CAP has not many reasons to be used in other weathers and it has a ton of checks and counters.

    So what i want from everyone is, before getting worried about the big Speed stat, sit and think why and how will this make the CAP broken and good in other teams as well. With carefull thinking and maybe the help of this post you will see that it won't make either of those things and will only help it succeed in the concept we want it to, making it a better answer to Lati@s and Water-types, as well as a better defensive pivot for sun teams.
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