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CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 6 - Stat Spread Submissions

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Mar 4, 2013.

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  1. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    First of all, I'll be announcing the slate at 1 AM EST. Rest assured that every spread submitted will be considered for slating regardless of the time it was slated (unless it's like 12:59 or something x__x).

    I'll be editing this post with more commentary on spreads. For one-on-one discussion or a live-time open forum, head over to #cap now plz :D

    Back to my quest to evaluate every spread while allowing everyone time to make adjustments/argue their points!

    The Reptile- You need to edit in fully fleshed-out justifications for your stat decisions before being considered for the slate. Furthermore, I'm puzzled as to how 102 Speed is beneficial for the Pokemon, as it seems to undercut Latios while outspeeding the Therians, which doesn't seem to be rooted in the concept. I like the high HP stat and the degree of customization going for it, though.

    erisia- Bold move with the Base 170 Special Defense! Although the number seems ridiculous, I like how you curb the stat with low Defense and HP. The only concerns I have is that the low Physical Defense turns the set into a liability and that your set is less than beneficial from an optics perspective. On the flip side, the quality of your analysis is impeccable- you do a great job of outlining your spread's goals and your calculations demonstrate that your spread does what you ask it to do. I'm a bit concerned that your spread gives us absolutely no latitude to invest meaningfully in Physical Defense, but outside of the concerns mentioned earlier your analysis is spot-on.

    Qwilphish- Your spread is reasonable, but does little to distinguish itself. However, that's not a real problem since there's no problem with playing it safe. I like that your Speed hits the "sweet spot" between Politoed and Heatran, as that's one of the most concept-friendly Speed stats posted so far. You give it the Physical bulk to take hits it should take, but I'd like to call attention to one point you made. In your "Physically Bulky" section of calculations, you gave it 252 HP and 0 Defense...the same Physical bulk as your Specially Defensive calcs. Could you go into a little more detail about how the Physical bulk affects the concept? Other than that, I've got no complaints!

    Imanalt- Hmm, a lot of these spreads are starting to look a bit similar. However, your Special Defense is targeted around Latias, not Latios, so there's no question your Special Defense serves a specific purpose! However, is it all that necessary to take +6 Dragon Pulses from Latias when your spread has one of the highest Attack stats around? You also claim that avoiding the 2KO from Specs Latios is unrealistic, yet many of the spreads competing with yours do just that. 76 Speed is definitely an intelligent point, as it trolls Heatran while partially removing Politoed's desire to Speed creep you. The rest of your claims seem great, but I'd really like to see some responses to the points I've raised above.

    nyttyn-Please expand your points a little more, as the deadline is approaching and your post is devoid of calculations and enough analysis to communicate your points. While you're at it, be sure to mark your spread as a Final Submission (this goes for every non-finalized spread!) Your spread does a good job of balancing Speed with Special Defense, as you realize that Special Defense is less of a priority as long as CAP5 outspeeds its counters. I'm not sure, however, if dying to strong neutral Physical attacks is beneficial, so could you please address that in your post? Also, you said your spread "2hko every lati set except calm mindn" (sic), but isn't it a bad idea to leave a Latias set able to theoretically Recover stall you? Though you can rely on Crunch defense drops to help you out, remember that the slightly lower Special Defense you have compared to the competition is going to limit your Crunch opportunity. The points raised in your bulleted list are legitimate and valid, but I'd like to see a little more analysis :D.

    Admiral_Stalfos- The pros and cons of your spread are very similar to the ones above. The elephant in the room on your spread is the 130 Speed which is leagues above everything else posted, and I fail to understand why anything above 111 is necessary. I assume it's so you can invest in bulk instead of Speed, but you ride the Special Tankiness limit. I cannot fathom why you need that extra Speed, so please fill me in on that. Is outspeeding Scarf Politoed all that important when you're tanking its hits well from that massive Special Defense? Furthermore, Base 75 Attack borders on nonviable without extreme investment, as even an invested Crunch can fail to 2KO some Latias sets. The Special Tankiness is definitely a benefit to your spread, but I'd like to see you better flesh out the Attack and Speed stats.

    Agile Turtle- Your post gives me a little insight into what you were thinking, but a little more reasoning would be nice. Remember (everyone), there's more to fulfilling the concept than beating Lati@s, and there are more Physical attackers in OU than the low-usage Conkledurr. Any particular reasons your spread rides the Special Tankiness limit when other spreads accomplish specific goals without riding the limit? There are definitely reasons why maximized Special Tankiness is beneficial to the concept, but I'd like to hear why 111 HP and 133 Special Defense are the answers to our concept dilemma. There's no doubt that this Pokemon needs to wall Specially and that maximizing the Special Tankiness does that, but there are other ways to do so and I would like to better understand why your spread is the way to go.

    Legend13- I like that your spread gives us the ability to pass Wish should CAP5 get it, as that has been a personal preference of mine. I'd like hear some explanations to the claims you're making such as "Def allows CAP5 to take uninvested or resisted hits, but is still KO'd by physical attackers" (sic), and calculations would make that argument so much stronger. You have some good ideas, and your spread could be great if you added the the explanations.

    Engineer Pikachu- 115 Attack is rather high, so I'd like to see some reasons as to why CAP5 could use the Attack boost, especially when your spread has ample Special Defense. Do you expect people to invest in Attack, and would you personally run a Physically offensive spread if your spread became the official spread for CAP5? The defenses seem pretty bog standard for what the rest of the community has posted, so please direct your explanation to that piquant Attack stat. Also, be sure to mark your spread as a Final Submission and add some analysis to have a chance of making the slate!

    I'll get to the last three spreads in a moment, just let me get a little something to eat first :P

    Korski- Ooh, another fast spread! I haven't seen 114 Speed before, but the rationale for it was impressive since we can preserve bulk while not cutting into Speed. Unlike most fast spreads that emphasize maximizing Speed, this one allows us to use Speed to better deal with slow counters. That's a good thing, since this spread is rather average in the bulk department. I usually criticize fast spreads for having to choose any two of Speed, power, and bulk, but the 252 Attack/252 Speed spreads and 252 HP/252 Attack spreads (or comparable bulky and fast spreads) seem to take care of business. One of your calculations did alarm me, however, and that's 252 Atk LO Mamoswine cleanly 2KOing us despite Mamoswine not being a theoretically great counter to the spread. Other than that, you do a great job of balancing the Special defense assuming an offensive set as evidenced by the Ninetales and Heatran calcs. This set does a good job of losing to the intended counters while defeating Pokemon that they should beat, but the lack of Physical defense to handle resisted Earthquakes startles me a bit.

    Nyktos- Sorry for not responding to this one, I guess I didn't catch it when running through the Final Submissions. Which was a bad thing, as this is a spread I like. Right off the bat, you demonstrate that the Physical attack is where it needs to be, as there are no excuses for not 2KOing the Lati twins on a slow spread. Fortunately, your 105 Attack accomplishes this. The high degree of HP allows for specialization and in turn that allows the user of the Sun team to tailor CAP5 to the team's needs. 44 Speed seems nice theoretically, but is 44 Speed the way to go? It lets our expected counters defeat us, but also turns CAP5 into a major liability against a momentum-grabbing Pokemon like Scizor because now CAP5 can't even lop off the last 12% or so with a resisted Crunch, nor can CAP5 even get off a last-minute Wish or Rapid Spin, etc. 44 Speed is by no means a bad selection, but I'd like to hear why 44 Speed was selected over some marginally higher alternatives.

    srk1214- Your spread is very solid. 90/130 hits the sweet spot of Special bulk, as evidenced by your myriad calcs. The spread doesn't have a ton to distinguish itself, but it's also not lacking in any major categories. To be honest, I waited a while to commentate this spread because I didn't have a lot to say about it that wasn't said in your post, so good job on developing your argument.

    toshimelonhead-Ooh, a high attack spread! I see most of your offensive calculations involve Horn Leech, but not any of the other Physical Grass attacks. Given the massive Special Defense your spread has, 100% investment in HP and Special Defense is not a guarantee, so it's possible that this Pokemon could be converted into a bulky sweeper if we're not careful with the movepool. Though your spreads work well with Horn Leech and Crunch/Sucker Punch, it's unlikely that those moves are the entirely of our Physical STAB. Other than that, however, the rest of the stats are tailor-made for the concept, so good job on that front!
  2. Legend13

    Legend13

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    My submission is now marked as final (though i will change it if it is deficient). As for speed, we won`t resolve this in time, so we shall see during the stat spread poll. Good Luck to everyone!
  3. toshimelonhead

    toshimelonhead Raising Whitney's Miltank

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    Final Submission

    CAP 5 Stat Spread: 95 HP / 120 Atk / 56 Def / 43 SpA / 144 SDef / 62 Spe
    PT: 97.05
    ST: 238.44
    PS: 135.54
    SS: 65.604
    288.794 BSR
    520 BST


    Justifications:
    Speed: I always start with Speed first when creating a CAP spread. I wanted something that was lower than Scizor and Skarmory, but high enough to outspeed Jellicent to avoid getting Taunted. Having lower speed than Politoed is also nice because then Cap5 can tank Choice Specs Ice Beams and Rest off the damage. 62 Speed is between the 60-65 range necessary for this. I picked 62 to reach a 520 BST.

    Special Attack: I was limited to a max of 52 Special Attack due to Special Sweepiness cannot be above 75. Acknowledging this limit, I used the Special attack to get Cap5 to 520 BST.

    Attack: 120 Attack allows CAP5 to OHKO Latios with Crunch/Sucker Punch after SR with no investment.
    Key Calculation:
    0+ Atk Cap5 Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 266-314 (88.07 - 103.97%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


    Other Calculations: (open)
    0+ Atk Cap5 Horn Leech vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 264-312 (81.98 - 96.89%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    0+ Atk Cap5 Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 180-212 (46.87 - 55.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Choice Band Cap5 Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 330-390 (85.93 - 101.56%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Choice Band Cap5 Crunch vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 380-450 (94.29 - 111.66%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Cap5 Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 254-300 (63.02 - 74.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Life Orb Cap5 Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 266-316 (98.15 - 116.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Life Orb Cap5 Horn Leech vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 312-369 (102.97 - 121.78%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Cap5 Horn Leech vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 240-284 (79.2 - 93.72%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Cap5 Sucker Punch vs. 152 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 181-214 (53.7 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    120 Attack seems to hit all of the OHKOs and 2HKOs we need after Stealth Rock without going overboard. While we do miss a Guaranteed OHKO on Latias with Leftovers and many of these calculations are with positive natures, we do cover all of our threats with Horn Leech and Sucker Punch / Crunch. On to bulk.

    HP / Def / SDef: 95 HP / 56 Def / 144 SDef
    Key calculations:
    252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cap5: 314-372 (94.86 - 112.38%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    0 Atk Hippowdon Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cap5: 164-194 (41.62 - 49.23%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after weather
    252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cap5: 408-484 (103.55 - 122.84%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cap5: 146-174 (37.05 - 44.16%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    Other calculations: (open)

    252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cap5: 190-225 (48.22 - 57.1%) -- 44.14% chance to 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cap5: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.83%) -- 22.27% chance to 2HKO
    +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cap5: 234-278 (59.39 - 70.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cap5: 372-444 (94.41 - 112.69%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cap5: 114-136 (28.93 - 34.51%) -- 15.04% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cap5: 242-288 (73.11 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cap5: 388-457 (98.47 - 115.98%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cap5: 372-440 (94.41 - 111.67%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cap5 in sun: 236-282 (59.89 - 71.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cap5: 258-304 (77.94 - 91.84%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cap5: 440-522 (111.67 - 132.48%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    I know these calculations are disorganized, but my goal is to make sure we survive everything we should and die to everything that should kill us. The spread I offer seems to do that quite well. Cap5 should be a Special tank since we need it to counter Latios, Latias, Thundurus-T, Gengar, and Politoed, some of the toughest special attackers in the game. Meanwhile, we need to be weak to Fighting-type priority attacks. This spread makes it harder to survive priority Mach Punches and CB Scizor Bullet Punches while surviving three hits from Hippowdon’s Ice Fang. Heatran and Volcarona have no problems taking Cap5 down with Overheat and Bug Buzz, either.
  4. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    That's a fair point about the PT. I really don't want CAP5 to take strong physical neutral hits too well, because Harvest + Lum or Sitrus really have the potential to turn this thing into a defensive monster if we don't give it limitations. That said, there's no harm in giving people the option of running 252 / 252 impish if they want to make CAP's defense less easy to exploit, so I've changed theBase Defense to 63.

    Most notably, this allows 252 / 252 impish spreads to take a Secret Sword from Keldeo after SR, while still ensuring it gets OHKO'd by stuff like Infernape Close Combat and Breloom Low Sweep. Being able to take Scarf Tyranitar's Superpower and Band Tyranitar's Stone Edge are both possible with this spread, so it definitely has some merit if you're struggling with Tyranitar.
  5. paintseagull

    paintseagull pink wingull
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    Since I spent so long reading this thread and doing a few fiddly calcs I thought I'd make some brief comments on spreads I like.

    Nyktos: I agree with you about the speed and not wanting to play a guessing game, though some people's concerns about going full defensive could be a problem with your HP/Def combo

    capefeather: I think this spread is really well balanced, feels natural but only as powerful as we need. I like the speed level a lot here. Also the Sitrus/Lum tradeoff is clever and helps with balance.

    Pwnemon: Good balance on Lum, and I appreciate the Speed dump, but I'm not sure about the more balanced/flexible defenses, I feel these could use a bit more justification

    Birkal/ginga: Beauty reasoning, and more natural looking than Pwne's (though capefeather has you both bested on this). Again I'm not sure about the flexible defenses but I prefer it to flexible offenses.

    Korski: The only fast spread that doesn't scare me, I think it's well reasoned and has low enough physical defense and attack to work how Korski says.

    srk: very well reasoned defenses, and in this case I can accept the just-surpassing Politoed speed


    Please forgive me for this very poorly worded post, but I have been following the thread pretty carefully and wanted to contribute.
  6. Nyktos

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    Oh hey I was about to go to bed but then I checked one more time and the feedback was here!

    It's true that my speed stat is rather low, even compared to some of the other slower spreads (11 points below Birkal's for instance). The thing is that there's not really a whole lot between 44 and 55 that matters. As far as I can tell, the only relevant thing the slightly faster spreads outspeed Hippowdon, which is barely OU and is a poor switchin to Power Whip whether or not it outspeeds us (the physically defensive spread can avoid the 2HKO, but then it's forced to spam heals until we miss or crit). I suppose if beating Hippowdon is a major priority, the higher speed is better, but I don't think that's really our main concern. (And if you really have to, investing in physical bulk makes it very hard for Hippo to break CAP 5 with my spread.)

    The reason I want a very low speed stat is that I don't want investing in speed to become better than investing in bulk, because at that point we're not doing what we're supposed to do: virtually none of the spreads here really counter Latias or Politoed without a lot of bulk investment, but I worry that on the high-speed spreads, investing in speed and throwing those things away will be better anyway, especially on non-sun teams where a spinner with Dark STAB is just as welcome as it is on sun. Forcing CAP 5 to be very slow means that it's likely only to be worth using on teams that need a good switchin for the Water and Psychic Pokémon that we're built to wall and not just ones that want a spinner. I wanted a speed stat that said that, for all intents and purposes, you can always assume you'll move last, so we could built a movepool with that in mind. I stopped at 44 rather than going even lower because there aren't a ton of fully-evolved Pokémon in existence that are substantially lower than that and I didn't feel we needed to set a Guinness record for slowness either. As it is, there are several Pokémon in OU that are slower and a couple that are only slightly higher.

    Now, I don't think that base 50 or base 55 is very likely to be investing a bunch in speed. But then, base 55 needs to invest, what, 52 EVs to beat minimum-speed Tyranitar? That's a small enough number that it might be worth thinking about. But Tyranitar might creep a bit, so maybe pop it up to 60 or 64...I'd just prefer to avoid that game entirely and focus on tanking hits. You mentioned Scizor, but any spread faster than Scizor is in a position to play speed creep games with Politoed which was one of the main things I wanted to avoid by going slow.

    Does low speed hurt momentum somewhat? Yes. But there are a variety of things we can do at the movepool stage to remedy that if it's a concern. We can give it U-turn or Volt Switch (which in some situations are actually better when you're slower). We can give it Sleep Powder, if we really feel like it. Even just Wish means that switching one of your other Pokémon on a move that it's guaranteed to survive but will take a bundle from becomes a lot more reasonable to do. These all allow your other Pokémon to get in more easily, and on a sun team a single free switch is often all you need to take over the game, especially when the likes of Latias are defeated or weak enough that they can't easily switch. I don't think that low speed is as much of an impediment to momentum as it's being made out to be.
  7. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    Well, it's been a great time, but it seems the deadline has passed and it's time to announce a slate and move on with the CAP. With this slate and upcoming vote, my time as discussion leader comes to a close. Thank you all for the great discussion, and I hope I can reciprocate that discussion by providing a great slate for you to vote on. The method I put into making this slate was to ensure diversity of opinions and ideas. Almost every one of the seventeen spreads posted had well thought out justifications for each stat, and my goal was to choose one spread from each school of thought on the issue to capture the entire spectrum of ideas without overloading the slate. To do so, I felt like nine spreads were necessary to do do.

    Here are the nine spreads that will move on to the next round in order of the Final Submission post:

    Deck Knight
    capefeather
    Birkal
    reachzero
    imanalt
    nyttyn
    Korski
    srk1214
    toshimelonhead

    Congratulations to the chosen spreads, and thank you to every person who submitted a spread. Regardless of your presence on the slate, know that every person who posted and contributed to the discussion meaningfully impacted the discussion. Thank you for a great stat discussion, now let's have some polls!
  8. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    Well, this is a lot tougher than I would have thought, especially due to the large size here. Originally, I was really hoping that I would not have to do anything here, but going through the ones on the slate, there is one who's reasoning, or lack there of, on speed very much concerns me. Throughout this thread and the previous one, speed has been the most talked about stat. High speed spreads have talked about their general speed utility in tandem with harvest in addition to outspeeding Latios and Latias. Low speed is about the unnecesity of speed and often times how slower harvest can be an advantage. The middle speeds have always been of the most concern to me, but many of our submitters have done a good job justifying them.

    My concern comes with Imanalt's spread, where the speed is put above Politoed in the mid 70s. That itself is not bad, but the post lacked reasoning as to why this speed fits the spread and what it actually does. In fact, the only sentence even on speed was a general statment on the stat, completely irrelevant to how the spread actually functions at that speed, or why this is a good idea. Due to this complete lack of reasoning, I would be very uncomfortable allowing this spread in. The stat might not be bad, but we have not been provided with any reasoning as to why it fits in with the concept, and as such, I don't believe people would be able to make a educated decision on the spread.

    So, with that said, I am going to have to go -1 on Imanalts. While the rest of the spread had good enough reasoning, the lack of real reasoning for how the speed fits in simply makes it not possible for people to make the best choice on it relative to our concept.
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