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CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 6 - Stat Spread Submissions

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Mar 4, 2013.

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  1. Agile Turtle

    Agile Turtle

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    FINAL SUBMISSION

    111/100/55/40/133/55

    PT: 107.01
    ST: 244.16
    PS: 103.55
    SS: 59.31
    BSR: 274.25

    Why this PT?
    This PT is just enough to survive a conkeldurr's mach punch with a little HP leftover. It can not however survive a conkeldurr's stronger fighting moves like drain punch. This is right where I wanted it, I wanted just enough to survive priority attacks, but nothing else, and I felt conkeldurr was the best candidate for the calculations due to its base 140 attack. It is not too high for anything, but can survive those low power priority attacks, ensuring its safety. And despite outspeeding conkeldurr, even with attacks like aerial ace or STAB power whip, it can only 3HKO conkeldurr and zen headbutt can only have a small chance of 2HKOing conk with maxinvestment, so conk still eaily counters CAP5.

    Why this ST?
    This thing needs to wall on the special side. The limit was 245, so this ST is right under it and the HP works with the PT. There isn't much more to add. It needs to wall specially, and going up to the limit given to use, its the best anwer.

    Why this PS?
    Like mentioned in the defense part, this does not threaten conkeldurr or anything like that s its fine, despite outspeeding conk buy 10 base speed. With max investment, this attack has a 75% chance of OHKOing latios with crunch or sucker punch.

    Why this SS?
    We can't harm scizor with HP Fire with SpA this low. That is really the main concern isn't it? Even with max investment it can't and it would leave CAP5 with terrible offensive stats if it tried going special just to counter one pokemon that isn't on every team, and it can't even counter it!
  2. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight DK! DK! Donkey Kong is here!
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    As far as spreads that are capable of walling Latis and outspeeding Politoed, the reasoning for this is simply because those are the top two (three) threats to sun and their consistent elimination is most helpful to the concept.

    It is true that middling speeds are drawing a very fine line, however the key thing to note about Politoed is that it intends to switch, and switch often, and Specs variants particularly may not be able to 2HKO CAP 5, but they can 3HKO.

    What I have never found satisfactory about the hooplah of LumRest is exactly what CAP 5 is supposed to be doing if it responds to every switch-in or attack with Rest to get back to full health - while operating under the assumption Lum Berry will always grow back, which requires Sun, which means CAP is more vulnerable to say Fire Punch. My assumption is that CAP 5 will get no boosting moves and therefore it is going to be using its existing Attack to accomplish its goal, which again since we are using LumRest means there is no such thing as Choice CAP or Life Orb CAP. This is not like Revenankh where we married reliable Resting with a stat-up and high special bulk to become a menace, in this case we have a mon designed to Rest off highly powerful special attacks, threaten things it can threaten with STAB and maybe a few specialized coverage moves, and then lose to the large number of things it simply can't sufficiently threaten do to its low offensive presence.

    Basically such spreads take to heart the notion of stomping out Toed and the Latis, and should generally have enough other weaknesses to compensate for that. Middling Speed may beat Politoed, but it's still middling speed, and by sticking with Grass/Dark STABs there is a lot that walls the offense. Spin can keep your team's momentum against hazards, but ultimately if you're PP Stalling with Rest, the best you're doing is keeping a pivot alive that stomps all over Latis/Toed but is otherwise mediocre.
  3. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    Just on the high speed stat submissions. Can someone tell me why we need massive specially defensive bulk, as well as superfast speed, for CAP 5 to do its job. The high speed comes with its fair share of problems, and I have yet to see any high speed stat address these concerns.

    For starters, Admiral_Stalfos19's spread requires a pathetic amount of speed EVs to outrun neutral base 100s, which is still thought to be the "standard" speed benchmark of OU. CAP 5 requires so little investment, it can quite happily run something like 252 HP 232 SDef Careful, outspeeding the majority of the OU tier while still walling pretty much any special attacker. Why the hell do you need 130 base speed? Scarf Toed is potentially annoying, but its not staying in on CAP 5, who can easily tank the Ice Beam and follow up with a Power Whip, basically crippling Politoed for the entire match (and remember sun often packs Dugtrio which can follow up on the Revenge Kill if Politoed survives).

    Just looking at nyttyns spread and I havde a similar question. 115 speed is still impressively fast, outspeeding basically all of the most common mons in the OU metagame provided they lack a scarf. This is particularly troublesome when the top scarfers in the metagame (Latios, Terrakion and Keldeo), cannot actually switch in and revenge kill it. Its also worrying that CAP 5 is predominantly checked by fast fighting mons, and yet giving it 115 speed allows it to outrun all of them, and KO 2 of them with its STAB Power Whip. Just how are you suposed to handle this thing when its exceptionally hard to revenge, and your best ways of killing it (Fighting mons) cannot actually switch in and need a scarf to outspeed (ignoring just how royally screwed they are if we give CAP 5 substitute).

    So really, why do we need massive special bulk, and massive speed, especially when that impacts heavily on shifting CAP 5 away from its main focus, checking Latios and dealing with Politoed. When you raise the speed you risk CAP 5 becoming more of a sweeper, or you change what can or cannot beat it. Outspeeding Keldeo and Terrakion I will always be against considering that as it stands they are the best ways of handling CAP 5. If it outspeeds and KOs them it makes it a heck of a lot harder to beat.
  4. Legend13

    Legend13

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    Final Submission

    125HP/95Atk/62Def/20SpA/122Spd/76Spe
    BST = 500

    PT: 130.754 Good
    ST: 243.811 Amazing
    PS: 127.901 Good
    SS: 45.0816 Bad

    BSR: 296.082 Good

    • HP and SpD allows CAP5 to tank special attacks with ease, including Specs Draco Meteor
    • Def allows CAP5 to take uninvested or resisted hits, but is still KO'd by physical attackers
    • Atk allows CAP5 to Pursuit trap Latios uninvested, and trap Latios invested
    • Spe puts CAP5 right under Heatran, and over Politoed, though Politoed does outspeed with timid
    • SpA has no need to be any higher
    • HP allows CAP5 to wall effectively, as well as theoretically wish pass
  5. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Speed is needed to give better flexibility to the CAP. Give it more chances to heal, attack, and spin. I already explained why Speed is good, but i guess you don't read my posts.

    You also mention that with a fast spread the CAP outruns all the Fighting types in OU, which are supposed to check us. Well, Breloom, Toxicroak, Lucario, and Conkeldurr still counter us so no problem here right? As far as Keldeo and Terrakion go, don't forget that those two are also Grass/Rock types, which are weak to us by typing alone. So we can't really switch into them and they can't really switch into us. While it is true we outspeed, both Pokemon can use effectively a Scarf set, and both Pokemon are not OHKOed by Power Whip, allowing them to take a hit and KO back if the situation is really desperate.

    I don't even get why you say that these pokes are the best ways to deal with the CAP, as literally they are some of the worst. Scizor, Lucario, Breloom, Skarmory, U-turn Jirachi, Heatran, Volcarona, Toxicroak, Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, Infernape, Conkeldurr, U-turn or SD Gliscor, Landorus-T, mixed Salamence with Intimidate, Metagross, and Magnezone are all Pokemon that can easily counter the CAP, along with a multitude of checks and revenge killers, so i can't really see your concern. If you get the reason to use Speed, outspeeding Terrakion and Keldeo shouldn't be an issue at all.
  6. EspyOwner

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    Okay, listen. People are reading your posts - you are arguing that speed is good. Yes, speed is good! Thank you, we know that high speed makes good Pokemon most of the time. What you are NOT arguing properly is that high speed is ideal for this CAP's concept. Why do you need to out speed everything and its mother? Yes, we might be giving this rapid spin and it would give it more chances to heal, etc... But none of that is set in stone, nor does it even remotely matter to what you're trying to argue against. Or maybe I should first ask the question of what are you even arguing against?

    tl;dr stating facts like "more speed means more chances to heal" is not an argument, it's stating facts.

    If you're arguing against the entire community on one point, don't you think it's time to step back and look at what you're trying to argue first?

    No one is denying that high speed makes great mons. However, high speed is not a requirement and it's definitely not necessary at all on this CAP as far as I and many others are concerned.

    Edit: Okay, I'm done trying to argue against you.
    [22:20] <alexwolf> thats only one mon and ttra isnt even common
    "Ttar isn't even common" my ass.
  7. nyttyn

    nyttyn No regrets
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    Alex already handled the prior so I'll address this: There are numerous, numerous better options then CAP5, even on sun teams, for a sweeper, even with high speed. Even if you keep into consideration the +2 attack subbing up gimmick, there are still a plethora of ways to stop that, it drops you to a dangerously low HP, and it really only works once. And for all that effort, which really can't afford to have a team built around it, you're still inferior to many, many sweepers who can do the same thing, only they can do it more then once and without dropping themselves at death's door.

    oh and we could, y'know, not give it any boosting moves since we don't want it to be a sweeper, since it really can't be one without them. and even then it's still a sack of shit as an offensive pokemon.

    At the end of the day CAP5 is still going to be support, no matter which way you slice it. Barring some sort of insane lunacy in movepool, high speed is not going to shift it towards sweeping with 80 base attack and grass/dark STABs.


    Edit: And no, high speed is not "nessescary." We could just give it special defense through the moon - but then it can't exactly reliably answer the issues it needs to, can it? At any given time, CAP5 is going to need to make a decision on what's best going to support the team - and if it's a slow ass motherfucker, it's going to get next to nil options to do so. However, if it's fast, it will at the very least in last ditch situations be able to throw something out before dying, which could crucially save a game that would otherwise be lost - which is something sun teams are sorely lacking in. In addition, high speed makes it easier to keep up the momentum, something which is beyond king for Sun teams - if they falter for even a moment, they get put in a very awkward spot. Drastically more so then any other arch type.

    I guess you can say Sun teams are all about keep up the aggression, much like the type it supports, and a fast CAP5 would help towards this.
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    First of all way to prove a point. Wrongly interpreting something i said on IRC only to make my point seem less valid. What is the actual relevance of what you quoted from IRC to what we are discussing?

    Let's go the to real issue now, so let me answer to your bolded sentence. High Speed is good for the CAP's purpose because it will allow it to better handle Lati@s, two of the main targets of the CAP, as well as support Sun teams better, because of the better spining ability that such a high speed gives. Finally, i could argue that the better longevity and offensive presence given by higher speed allow it to be a better pivot as well, but this can be argued, so let's better stick to the first things i mentioned.

    I am really buffled as to why most people here seem to connect Speed with only offense. Saying Speed is always good really makes no sense whatsoever. Bulk is always good and power is always good too right? You make it seem like the only Pokemon that need Speed are purely offensive Pokemon...
  9. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    Or we could give it excellent bulk and Pursuit and handle Latio@s that way removing the possibility of a fast CAP losing focus of its concept.
  10. Legend13

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    At the end of the day, CAP5 still has counters, and by giving it 115 Spe, you are making their jobs much harder. With 115, it even outspeeds Latios, the pokemon responsible for CAP5 needing a gargantuan SpD. Spe would help a support, but it is axiomatic that Heatran and Sun sweepers outspeed CAP5. CAP5 should be able to wall special sweepers, bar those who abuse sun, and if it turns out that your in low health, then you've been outplayed, and CAP5's job is done. Every OU pokemon has some kind of weakness that keeps it in OU, and CAP5's low speed is one, which we are keeping.
  11. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Just posting to say that i agree with this viewpoint. If CAP5 is too slow, then it won't be able to suicide spin against stuff like scizor or ttar for clutch plays, or use aromatherapy to remove that paralysis from your venusaur before being taunted, etc. High (ish) speed increases CAP5's utility and support capacity on Sun teams, which is good for our concept. However, i personally think that high Attack is more useful than really high Speed in this case, as it lets CAP5 threaten stuff like defensive politoed and CM latios more consistently, so i'm sticking by my "just below heatran" philosophy.
  12. srk1214

    srk1214 Epke Motherf**in Zonderland
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    I know I haven't updated my WIP at all with reasoning, but as a fellow person at base 75 speed, I just want to second everything said against high speed and low speed alike. I'm utterly unpersuaded by anything under 70 or over 90 base speed.

    I'll edit stuff in and post a Final Submission by the end of tomorrow most likely.
  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    The CAP has many weaknesses even with high Speed. It has mediocre Attack, bad coverage (this is what the majority wants for the CAP at least), exploitable physical side, and lots of weaknesses to common attacking types. Btw i have yet to hear which of our counters is beaten due to the extra Speed. All of the Pokemon that counter the CAP in OU:
    still don't care if the CAP is faster or not. Actually i would argue that by being faster the CAP hates U-turn from Pokemon such as Jirachi and Gliscor more, as it won't get a chance to heal the damage before getting forced out.
  14. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    Because your mons are so much better?

    Metagross, Infernape, Mixed Intimidate Salamence and Conkeldurr (potentially Lucario) are all exceptionally low on usage whereas Terrakion and Keldeo are the premier fighting pokemon used on teams these days. Many of the pokemon you listed, also have flaws (for example Croak needs rain, a few of them are SR weak, or don't really give any sun team trouble etc etc). Terrakion and Keldeo might not have been the best counters to CAP 5, but they are the best commonly seen offensive checks in the game, they can be chucked onto pretty much any team (Keldeo stays away from sun but works on sand, rain and no weather b4 you nitpick it) and generally do pretty darn well just many other good pokemon. People WANT to use high usage mons that double at offensively checking mons, noone wants to just use an Infernape to check CAP 5 when its pretty shitty pokemon outside of this when you have the option if using Terrakion which is just so much better and fits on anything. No-one is denying that CAP 5 still has counters, thats pretty obvious, what people are frustrated about is having to resort to uncommon options to deal with it, when a Terrakion would work just fine. Its going to be hard enough to handle sun with the support its new CAP would bring it, let alone actually trying to beat the CAP itself.

    You still havn't answered why it needs high speed when CAP 5 can run bulk (which most spreads have anyway) and use Pursuit, which still beats Latios / Latias pretty well =]

    Do you even know how much a U-Turn does? Do you want me to calc it for you?

    Here is a U-Turn from Scarf Jirachi on nyttyns spread (252 HP in case you were wondering): Jirachi (OU Choice Scarf) U-turn 115.62 - 136.45%. Are you seriously going to try and tank that and "heal it off". Like seriously -_- .

    (BTW your arguement goes both ways, with speed you can sub b4 U-Turn instead of healing / attack before going down etc etc)

    EDIT

    Here is the ginganinja + Birkal spread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4606122&postcount=9

    Please comment =]
  15. Yllnath

    Yllnath

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    OMG, Ginga, you're a genius! You just completely nailed how fast speed actually fulfils the concept! Wooo, awesome. Because you just mentioned how CAP5 basically makes two popular fighting types become less popular in a metagame with CAP5, meaning their second typings of Water (freaking common) and Rock, will be replaced by mons who also have the shared Fighting type, but a much less common second type in either Fire or Poison.

    But what is this? You're actually telling me you don't want to make a stat spread that fulfils the concept? You want to use common and popular mons to beat CAP5 because that's what you prefer and are used to? Hmmm. You know what, let's give it a stat spread of 50/50/50/50/50/50, just to make sure CAP5 makes no impact on the metagame at all, because that hinders your ability to play with the common mons. The same mons whose usage were freaking aiming at trying to reduce as per the concept!



    Allright, I'll man up. Ginga, you're post was just the last post that got me angry so you got the bigger part of my sarcastic reply. But there is no way that I'm removing these first two paragraphs. Why? Because it's about the first time in this entire thread so far that the word USAGE has been used.

    And when the discussion falls into a shit storm, and Ginga writes down an alinea like he did about not wanting to use less common mons to check CAP5, which goes fully and completely against the concept, we need to stop for a second and rethink what we are doing. CAP in general, has always had an issue around this stage and the movepool stage of losing focus on what the concept wants us to do, and goes more and more into just completing/finishing a proper and solid good OU mon.
    And it makes sense. We've done our concept discussion. We came up with a few sub-directives. Some niches that we want CAP5 to have. Then we proceeded with typings. Ability. We start pushing CAP5 more and more into a direction and we start envisioning CAP5 for ourselves. Threats discussion. (A big one in our train of thoughts about how CAP5 will shape up to be in the metagame). Stat limits. And here we are. Most of the stat submitters will have entered this stage with a set mind on how they envision CAP, and I have no doubt most of these mindsets on how CAP5 should be in stats have been formed mostly in the last few stages, like Ability and threats discussion.

    Ability aside, we've concluded on some threats to CAP5 and some mons that CAP5 needs to threaten. We did that to give some focus to us in later stages to help us fulfil the concept. But as with every discussion stage, these are just tools to help us fulfil the concept. Setting threats are the means to an end. In the end, we want CAP5 to nail down the concept itself, the main description line, to a T. The only way of actually doing that is to always not only use the tools given to use in earlier stages, it's to always think about the Concept itself too. And how the things we're trying to do works for the concept.

    Now, we can argue all we want that we decided to aid Sun teams, and by proxy we'll probably fulfil the concept. But honestly, if in my job, I'd always only focus on the little details and would get further and further into those, somewhere along the line, I'd derail the entire project if I wouldn't look back regularly into the basic set of requirements my client gave me. I've seen many projects derail in IT, just because of this way of working. It affects everyone. Even high level government project with so-called professionals screw up major stuff by over focusing on minor details regularly. I guess it's in our nature.

    And yes Ginga, when I look at the list of mons that Alexwolf lists, a fair share of them have at least one typing that is definitely not in the top of common typings. Water/Fighting? RIIIIIGHT up there.
    So this is where I think focusing on the main goals of our concept gets priority over just adhering to the threats list. And honestly, I even said this same damn thing in the stat limits thread. Keldeo and Terrakion were not even mentioned in the final post as decided upon threats. What was mentioned was: Some fighting types, like Infernape or Toxicroak are threats to CAP5.




    Anyway, I know it's much easier for everyone just to explain how your stat spread works well on sun teams and against common sun enemies. But if your submission has an additional paragraph about how it relates to fulfilling the concept, drawing out lesser used typings as counters and how it goes about helping to fulfil the three sub-directives, you're much more likely to get my vote. These sub-directives that Doug wrote and just about everyone agreed on: Beat common typings through boosting Sun - Get the 3 main counters for sun out of the way; Toad/Lati@s - Open up teamspots by letting CAP5 also take on the niche of Spinning.

    (Yes EspyOwner, read sub-directive 3. Alexwolf was actually arguing perfectly well in favor of the concept when the mentioned how higher speed works well in favor of enabling Rapid Spin.)


    Also, I have no idea if our simulators work the way that Ignus is saying. Probably needs some investigating, because it has huge implications for our stat spreads. EDIT: Why was his post removed?! If it's complete bullocks, just make a reply as a moderator why his post is bullocks and be done with it. But if his version of how Harvest operates is true to the cartridge, then why the hell aren't we taking it serious? Sitrus Berry activating twice in one turn is a HUGE thing after all..
  16. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    I am fully aware we are trying to decrease type usage, however unless I am wrong we picked water and dragon to decrease rather than fighting? Nor are you really limiting "fightings" effectivness in creating a CAP thats actually weak to said typing. You even stated what we are targetting. Ill quote it for you in case you missed it.

    Tell me where you found the bit where we are nerfing the fighting type, because quite honestly, all I see are Toed (Water), and Lati@s (Dragon) being discussed. Heck, thats about all iv seen in this thread to so IDK? Am I missing something :/

    I actually want to use mons that are GOOD. You can ask, any OU player, and they will tell you Metagross is shit. They will tell you Infernape is also shit. What I latched onto was alexwolf listing some subpar pokemon in the OU metagame and asking us to tweak CAP 5 into avoiding being checked by 2 of its best offensive checks (fast Fighting types), in favour of us using Metagross and Infernape to counter it instead.

    10/10 for the personal attack and for missing the point utterly.

    To be clear here, I don't have a problem using less common mons. For you to launch a personal attack on me shows you actually don't know me at all as a person or player so I invite you to actually have a chat with the person your attacking (in this case me) so you don't come off as looking foolish. For the record, im actually a gimmicky player, I use totally random or uncommon shit on my ladder teams (many are aware I use Seismitoed / Omastar / Venomoth / Heracross / Mew / MOLTRES (hi alex) etc etc) so don't imply I have something against common mons please, its insulting, wrong and a little hurtful.

    What you perhapes misunderstood (and im saying it again so you understand), is that I perfered Terrakion being an offensive check for CAP 5 as an alternative to being forced to use less useful mons. Something, that I can throw onto a team, have it do its job, while also checking CAP 5. Many of the pokemon on his list, I felt, either required a bunch of team support to work effectively, or were 2 far to niche. There are good ones sure, Heatran is good and Breloom is another one but Terrakion has the potential to put sun teams in a rough spot which is something I value. You are quite welcome to claim that CAP 5 beating Terrakion will increase the usage of sun and I would with you, but the focus is nerfing water and dragon types, NOT the fighting type. Its also ironic how you call me out for increasing the usage of rain mons (Keldeo I guess is a rain mon but it works on sand!), and the ignore how Toxicroak is on that list (not a mon that works on sand :[ ), a mon that NEEDS Politoed to actually work. Look at your own examples and arguments please otherwise you risk contridicting yourself or something.

    CAp 5 wouldn't be lowering the usage of a type, it would be lowering the usage of a few pokemon. There is a (subtle) difference. Rock is not a type we need to decrease usage of, and as I said earlier, you are hardly decreasing its usage by including a mon thats actually WEAK to fighting attacks. So really, can I conclude that you have decided on limiting the usage of fighting types with CAP 5 (which includes Infernape, Breloom, Lucario, Conkeldurr and Toxicroak as well) Perhapes you are going to campaign for a Psychic move? No. Water and Dragon are the focus here as types to nerf NOT fighting, so don't pick on me for asking why Terrakion couldn't be on the list of offensive checks (Keldeo I can understand I guess even tho its used on any team bar sun) If you looked at alexwolfs list you will see many of them actually are fighting types, so I have no idea why you launched a personal attack on me for questioning why 2 of the better fighting types which only checked CAP 5 being prevented from handling CAP 5 and then claiming that I don't want us to fullfill the concept. Look at your own argument first please before having a go at me. =]

    For emphasis (just so you understand my ??? moment when I saw your post), why are you so upset that I'm quite happy including Terrakion in that list. Its not going against the concept, since our CAP isn't decreasing the usage of the Fighting Type so why do you have such a problem with it?

    For reference, (and as a said mod) I wouldn't call one out for a moderation decision. Some mods might like that, idk, but I know many that don't. Secondly Sitrus Berry DOES activate twice per turn, I didn't even need to test it myself, as I know from experience seeing a Harvest Eggy use Sitrus Berry. It lived the hit on 5%, Sitrus Berry activated, raising it to 30%, and during the end turn Harvest activated, getting a second sitrus berry and it activated, and around and around it went. I welome you to check out the following link for your education:
    Hello this is Harvest, please read me

    =]

    Also don't Theseus swallow please, its hard enough responding to a tl;dr without having to use an online dictionary to actually understand what you are saying. (Help, university never taught me what alinea means!!!)
  17. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon is a more intuitive player
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    OK Yilnath,


    OK.

    You think running higher speed will knock Keldeo and Terrak off of the counters list? Scarf is a good set, they'll just start running it a bit more. making a pokemon strategically counterable by shit pokemon won't raise their usage /because they are still shit pokemon./ Golurk beats every terrakion set in OU; it also beats virtually nothing except for Terrakion sets; nobody uses Golurk. Trying to raise the usage of a Pokemon by being countered by it is almost a guaranteed failure. If you succeed, you probably have a bit too much impact on the meta (hi gastro/thund-i)!

    as a pet peeve FIGHTING IS NOT ONE OF OU'S "COMMON TYPES." It is seventh most common by raw numbers of appearance behind psychic, flying, ground, water, steel, and dragon. It has six users in OU, three of which are #40 or lower (conkeldurr, lucario, toxicroak.) I don't really know why the fuck Fighting was included alongside those other three in the concept assessment but let us dispel this idiocy now.

    edit: oh i forgot infernape who sucks
  18. inanimate blob

    inanimate blob

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    Truth (open)
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    Such rage. I'd forgotten how fun it is to lurk around CAP and see the idea wars/ignorance.

    I would like to voice my support for the people who are displaying the slower speeds. We all seem to be in agreement about what the Special Defense should be like, and the other stats are showing their normal variations.

    But Speed, as stated a few times earlier, is all over the place. Suddenly, we're in three groups - slow, middling, and fast.

    So I'll voice my support for a slower Speed. The main thing is that we shouldn't be worried about being able to take a U-turn or not - we have a 4x weakness to it, the only way we'll survive is with a Substitute, unless we gear towards a more physically tanky Pokémon, which concentrates on the wrong Pokémon to counter. Additionally, even if we give CAP5 a higher Speed, many times the Pokémon we want to counter hold Choice Scarfs. Latios, Latias, Politoed...while I'm not saying we need to specialize CAP because of one select move set, it's still something to consider. CAP5 isn't going to want to use a Choice Scarf, considering it has a great ability in Harvest. This means that a slower Speed may actually be beneficial for CAP5, since the stats can be distributed elsewhere like I've seen on stay spreads from people like Engineer Pikachu. While we don't need another OP Pokémon like Aurumoth, we do need to make CAP5 usable and promote people wanting to use it, so giving it higher stats besides Speed may be beneficial. Additionally, the slow Speed can actually aid CAP5 with a lesser used strategy - Trick Room. We have Reuniclus as a potential partner, so it's something to possible consider. Having a slower Speed allows CAP5 to have a larger variety of options, rather than coming in and attempting to threaten out by outspeeding, which may or may not work due to the presence of Choice Scarf.
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    They are better at beating the CAP sure. Terrakion and Keldeo where never good ways to check the CAP, they were just good revenge killers to it, which still holds true even with 112 Speed, just to a lesser extend.

    Way to miss the point ginga. Yeah you can start mentioning flaws of the Pokemon i mentioned, as if i can't find falws in every Pokemon if i wanted to. Stop targeting the mediocre and bad Pokemon in the list i mentioned and ignoring all the good ones. I simply wrote a complete list of Pokemon in OU that counter the CAP and what do you do? Attack the worst of those, that we all know are the worst. So i ask what is the point of this? Even if you would never use Infernape, Metagross, and Conkeldurr, there are still a ton other pokes that i mention and beat the CAP while being very popular, good, and easy to slap on any team. And finally, i have explained multiple times why it needs Speed, so you either refuse to read my posts, or just refuse to see the reasoning behind it so i give up. Several people on irc, such as jas and erisia understand why i am advocating such a big Speed stat, even if they don't agree with it, and this is all that i want honestly... If you try a little, just a little ginga, i am sure that you can get the reasoning for a big Speed stat. But to realize this you must start being logical and stop attacking my posts just to do so (what is the point of targeting and bashing the worst Pokemon out of the list of counters i mentioned?).

    You didn't understand... I was talking about defensive Jirachi and Gliscor, which cannot OHKO the CAP with U-turn. If the CAP is slower and these Pokemon use U-turn then the CAP can simply rest the damage, while if it is faster than those Pokemon it is really fucked up. And while it is true that you can block the U-turn with Sub, Sub still makes you lose 25% life before getting forced out, while with Rest you get out of the field with 100% health.

    EDIT: Oh and lol, i forgot the public enemy number 1 to the CAP, Scizor, so adding him to he list of counters as well!
  20. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Self-proclaimed DEAD king
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    Alexwolf already accounted for ScarfToed in his calcs (it's a mere 3HKO with 252 HP/0 SDef, neutral nature), while ScarfLatios wouldn't even be a proper 2HKO (44.3% - 52.3%; a surefire 2HKO with SR, but lol "CAP5 used recovery move").

    204 Atk vs 216 Def & 323 HP (120 Base Power): 246 - 290 (76.16% - 89.78%)

    This is the damage alexwolf's CAP5 does to Keldeo and Terrakion with Power Whip, with only 16 Attack EVs (as the rest are in HP and Speed). I... fail to see how this is a problem. You don't OHKO even with SR. Hell, most of the time, a layer of Spikes instead would still not be enough. You'd need near max Attack (253 stat) to ensure the KO with SR.

    But of course, that's only if you can go first.

    Show Hide

    Code:
     +----------------------------------------+ 
     | Terrakion                              | 
     +----------------------------------------+ 
     | Raw count: 67654                       | 
     | Avg. weight: 0.626184566775            | 
     +----------------------------------------+ 
     | Abilities                              | 
     | Justified 100.000%                     | 
     +----------------------------------------+ 
     | Items                                  | 
     | [u]Choice Scarf 36.662% [/u]                  | 
     | Choice Band 20.579%                    | 
     | [u]Salac Berry 12.091%[/u]                    | 
     | Focus Sash 10.453%                     | 
     | Life Orb  8.462%                       | 
     | Leftovers  4.109%                      | 
     | Rock Gem  2.846%                       | 
     | Other  4.798%                          |
     +----------------------------------------+ 
     | Keldeo                                 | 
     +----------------------------------------+ 
     | Raw count: 54507                       | 
     | Avg. weight: 0.644420148993            | 
     +----------------------------------------+ 
     | Abilities                              | 
     | Justified 100.000%                     | 
     +----------------------------------------+ 
     | Items                                  | 
     | [u]Choice Scarf 41.530%[/u]                   | 
     | Leftovers 23.758%                      | 
     | Choice Specs 12.280%                   | 
     | Expert Belt  9.844%                    | 
     | Life Orb  7.889%                       | 
     | Other  4.700%                          | 
    


    And I don't think that's going to happen that easily. Of course, you could use your own Scarf, but... a Grass/Dark pokémon with 82 Base Attack and no good coverage nor ability locked into a single move. Yep, not working. How many Scarf Froslass do you see in any serious battle? Isn't Froslass' main selling point her support abilities (basically, Spikes eveywhere), and doesn't her sky-high Speed stat help her in ensuring she does her job? How could that degenerate into "good sweeper"? Hell, she has better coverage than many people are planning for CAP5 and yet she isn't known for her sweeping capabilities in UU. Of course, we are giving fantastic/amazing special tankiness to CAP5 and that's something silly Froslass will never have, but she doesn't have to contend with OU's powerhouses or Latios' Draco Meteors either.

    Terrakion and Keldeo are huge deterrents to CAP5 alright; even though they can't simply switch in all day long, they do survive CAP5' strongest SE STAB, their Scarf sets are their most used sets (and are strong and useful as fuck already), and they can even use CAP5's Dark-type moves to switch in and score a free +1 in Attack. Their only real issue is a CAP5 holding a Chople Berry; if that ever happens, they have to avoid getting hit by a Power Whip when switching in... but then we would start discussing prediction and overprediction and glorified guesswork and I'm gonna stop here.


    Quoting this because I frankly don't see how a high Speed would suddenly turn all these pokémon from "counters" into "sacks of shit" against CAP5. First, by the few discussions I've seen on IRC, CAP5 isn't getting much in coverage, so I don't see it KOing Heatran with Earthquake and lol HP Ground is out of question already. Stone Edge is off-limits as it nails Volcarona too easily, so Kyurem-B cannot be countered or even touched either. Conkeldurr, Lucario, Breloom and Toxicroak all KO you with Drain Punch and/or priority. "Skarmory used Brave Bird". Landorus-T still intimidates you and has a stronger move (Stone Edge vs. Power Whip). Jirachi will outlive you or just flinch-hax you to death. Salamence... you don't even need Intimidate, Moxiemence would kill it easily and is the most common set. Hydreigon-- um ok I don't see Hydreigon having much against CAP5. Tough luck, bro.

    The best a fast CAP5 would do to them would be using Taunt to prevent recovery or setting up (Kyurem-B, Volcarona, Gliscor, Landorus-T, Toxicroak, Breloom and Conkeldurr), or Substitute to tank the U-Turn (Jirachi, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Hydreigon). This doesn't mean CAP5 wins against either of them; at best, that would be a desperate measure to help the rest of its team against the pokémon, because surely CAP5's dying or being mauled the next turn (or this one already, if it mispredicts) by anything they throw at it.

    Unless we are suddenly giving CAP5 Swords Dance, Thunder Wave, Stone Edge, Earthquake, Sleep Powder and/or Bicycle Spear, I don't see how a Speed stat high enough for better pivoting and outspeeding the Latis would suddenly make it broken or detract from the concept. By the heavens, it's a glorified Virizion, we'd need to go full retard to screw up that much by this stage.


    EDIT-- It has just occurred to me CAP5 can effectively use Natural Gift... Not sure what to make of it yet.
  21. paintseagull

    paintseagull pink wingull
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    I really like Birkal/ginganinja's submission because of their reasoning - it clearly lays out various situations and shows how CAP5 checks and is checked by the things we have discussed so far.

    This high/low speed debate is falling very flat to me - a lot of unwillingness to accept criticism and just bickering back and forth. The best thing for all of your arguments would be to clearly lay out offensive AND defensive situations in which CAP5 wins AND loses - I have noticed a lack of losing situation examples in a lot of peoples' explanations.

    My very bare-bones summary of this debate is that if you want to counter Politoed and Latias you need to be able to do some combination of defense and offense such that you don't die and the other pokemon does die in some given number of turns (seems to be 2, maybe 3). And of course this assumes no switching and no other previous damage which will not be the case, but just for argument's sake that's what we're going with. And so then this can be accomplished with a number of different combinations of Attack/Special Defense/Speed -- what do we pick? For me the real question we need to ask before answering this is - which is the safest spread FOR OUR ROLE - ie which is the most benefited by other members of sun, which is the least likely (or in the least number of situations) to be able to deal with our counters list, which is the most likely (or in the most number of situations) to be able to threaten / win against Politoed/Latias/other less important targets.

    I would really appreciate people framing the discussion in this way - this current trend of arguing back and forth and just degenerating into personal attacks is pointless and does nothing to convince others to support your spread.
  22. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
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    As a CAP moderator, I'm going to ask everyone to simmer down a bit. Don't attack one another just because you have different opinions on how CAP 5 should work. If a stat spread is within the limits DetroitLolcat and he sees fit to slate it, then the community will decide which argument they think is most convincing based off of the submitters' reasoning. I'd much rather people focus on why their stat spread is the best over focusing on tearing down the work of others. Thank you!

    He was wrong; Harvest does not activate twice within one turn. Sitrus Berry can be used twice in one turn as he suggested, though. The post was deleted because not only were his facts wrong, but it also derailed the thread (subsequent posters who responded were also deleted). To be honest, I think most everyone knows that this is how Harvest works, and are planning their stat spreads accordingly around it.
  23. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
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    I don't mind so much the Speed itself. I think that there is a case, in the abstract, for high Speed. However, it is the high Speed and high bulk at the same time that worries me about just about all of the submissions that are faster than DarkSlay's submission. Why have the Speed and the bulk at the same time? This is a lot of why Speed is being seen as "make the Pokemon better", even if that's not the intent of the submitters. IMO, Speed should be used in lieu of Fantastic/Amazing grade bulk, not in tandem with it.

    I'm thinking of raising the special bulk on my own spread a bit. Some people have told me they like my reasoning for it, but there hasn't been much to suggest that it is actually being favoured / has a chance of actually winning. It does cut it quite close against Life Orb Latios. Mainly, I'm thinking that, since Harvest has a 50% success rate outside of sun, perhaps the matchup against Specs Latios without a Sitrus Berry should be similar in probability risk to the matchup without sun? I should probably do some more Attack calcs, too...

    For posterity:
    Before this post: 95 HP / 99 Atk / 60 Def / 45 SpA / 116 SpD / 65 Spe
    After this post: 95 HP / 100 Atk / 60 Def / 50 SpA / 130 SpD / 65 Spe
  24. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Ok let me explain why a big Speed stat will help the CAP to do better its role with some more specific examples. With small Speed and huge special bulk the CAP becomes more of a special wall than a pivot. A special wall is fine too, but the bad thing is that it loses momentum. Walls stay in the field for multiple turns usually, or at least for a few turns in order to heal, while pivots often take one hit and immediately switch out to preserve momentum. Walls can't afford to immediately switch-out because they need to be in good health in order to take the threats they want to later in the game, so they need to heal. But pivots don't care so much abouth surviving throughout the entire game, because their main purpose is not to wall stuff, but give easier switch-ins to your other Pokemon.

    So let's take three Pokemon as examples, LO Latios, Specs Politoed, and LO Sheer Force Landorus. Let's say they manage to get in safely against Ninetales and now you need to bring in the CAP, which will usually be the best answer sun teams have for those Pokemon.

    With a slow spread (70 Speed or less) all of those Pokemon can predict the switch-in and 2HKO the CAP with the appropriate attack (HP Fire for Latios, Focus Blast or Ice Beam for Politoed, Focus Blast for Landorus). So if they hit you with one of those moves as you come in, you are either forced to switch out and have a slow Poke with less than 50% of its health left or to predict them using another move and heal. Of 'course you can predict correctly and handle the situation fine, but the risk is still there. If you predict wrong either the CAP dies (you stayed in thinking that they will use another move as they 2HKOed), one of your teammates dies (if LO Landorus and Latios predict correctly the switch in), or you manage to bring something else safely (Venusaur on Focus Blast from Lando) but are now left with a slow Pokemon that has lost over half of its life.

    However, with a fast spread, for example mine with 112 Speed, the CAP has more ways to overcome situations like this. Even if those Pokemon hit you with their strongest move you can still keep momentum if you predict correctly their move and even if you don't predict their next move you don't suffer such heavy consequences as the ones you did with the slow CAP. It doesn't matter if the CAP stays in or swithces out, the risk is smaller and the situation can be handled easier. You can either LO stall Latios until it is forced to use Roost and pp stall LO Landorus and Politoed from Focus Blast. Even if for some reason you decide to switch out after losing most of your health, with 112 Speed you will have many more chances to do something useful for the team than with 70 Speed or less. A slow defensive Pokemon with most of its life lost is almost deadweight against offensive teams, where the same doesn't hold true for a speedy pivot, one that will possibly have Rapid Spin nontheless.

    So to sum it up, with better Speed you are able to make for a better pivot because you need to spend less time healing and thus less time on the battlefield, and can focus more on pivoting to your teammates or spinning, which is what we want in the first place.
  25. DarkSlay

    DarkSlay This Wouldn't Have Happened In Romney's Smogon
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    I have updated my initial post with descriptions! Please take the time to read it, as I believe it answers quite a bit about not only my spread in general but the need for certain Speed stats for CAP5. I hope you all enjoy it, and good luck to all of the spreads! Please come on IRC if you'd like to discuss this further.

    Also, if it's too much reading, I also included a TL;DR summary for convenience, so at least look at that and then decide what you want and don't want to read. Thanks!
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