CAP 12 CAP1 - Part 11a - (Non-Attacking Moves Discussion)

[reachzero]

Edit: Just a minor rant: I'm also pretty disappointed to a) see that Thunder Wave/Glare are already initially Disallowed; and b) that apparantly these moves now don't warrant discussion here because they (according to Woodsy) have already been discussed a great deal on IRC, meaning Reach has already reached a consensus before the thread even opened on them, and put them in Disallowed. It's a strong TL model, and Reach has all the rights to put these moves in Disallowed from the get-go. He probably doesn't even need to justify it. I'm just annoyed, once again, that apparantly IRC has been the place where all the discussion was, instead of the forum, once again.

Regardless, I still would like to see Thunder Wave (not Glare) to be allowed. It has no utility against ground types and can also be predicted against by having a Motor Drive/Volt Absord/Lightningrod on your team to take the incoming TW, and actually be at an advantage. (Unlike Glare, that can pretty much paralyze anything)
I see no reason to completely disallow paralysis. It has no Serene Grace, so paraflinch haxing isn't nearly as effective or annoying as it is on Togekiss. And seeing that aside from Work Up, it has no way to set up fast, and I don't really see this thing sweeping anytime soon. Not to mention that it will only have 2 moves on such a set to attack with (TW/Work Up/X/X), meaning that Blissey or Chansey can wall it all day long, and cripple Tomohawk with status. And it has no room for other useful moves like Taunt. That, and unlike a Rock Polish, you'll have to TW every faster pokemon on your opponents team seperately, just to sweep. That's a lot of turns, just given away for free.
I'm not sure why Thunder Wave has been deemed disallowed, but unless I'd see a snippet of the IRC discussion that stated it was too OP and need to be disallowed, I'd like to open up discussion on them, because I feel TW is far from OP or too much utility. Hence why I'd like to see it allowed.

Let me explain this, since it certainly isn't very obvious. I understand that Thunder Wave and especially Glare are great for this concept. Paralysis is almost as good as momentum gets, arguably better than sleep (more reliable, Sleep Clause) and more predictable than freeze. On an abstract Momentum Pokemon, I would love to try out Glare, or at least Thunder Wave. The problem is that all but one of Tomohawk's counters rely heavily on speed--Thundurus, Lati@s and Zapdos are all nearly worthless when paralyzed. Even though Glare/Thunder Wave fit the concept almost perfectly, they would also make Tomohawk almost impossible to switch into safely (even without Prankster).

I would also advise placing Spore into Disallowed.

I mean, seriously, we spend a great deal of time in #cap arguing over whether paralysis is broken on this thing. Sleep would be even worse.

I'm not as certain of that. Okay, Spore is overkill, but Sleep Clause means that this is actually LESS powerful than paralysis. Keep in mind that Tomohawk is pretty slow, and there are major disadvantages to being slower than a sleeping Pokemon with the new sleep mechanics. Of course, if we so desire we could also simply make sleep moves (Hypnosis, Lovely Kiss, lol Sing) illegal with Prankster.

In terms of recovery moves, I am definitely leaning toward allowing them because we really want to be able to handle Excadrill and Landorus more than once over the course of a game. We also want to encourage Substitute abuse, and that is a lot harder without recovery, especially on a Pokemon that takes Sandstorm damage.

I'll admit to being very partial to Baton Pass for this concept! Most of the stat-up moves that are on the allowed list have this in mind. I'd like to hear some discussion of what the most useful of these are, and whether you agree at including Baton Pass at all.

 

[SJCrew]

Allow Agility

There's more than one way to analyze momentum reversal, and we aren't going to get anywhere if we continue to shun the offensive aspect of it. Tomo can't operate on its defenses alone, and its offensive strength clearly suggests a Pokemon that was made to do damage. There's nothing wrong with putting at least one sweeping option on the table, considering this one in particular is not too powerful, and falls in line with the concept pretty damn well by allowing you to turn the tables on your opponent and win the game.

We've already done our part to ensure this isn't a God sweeper by giving it low speed and no usable priority, but in a 'bottom of the ninth, bases loaded' clutch situation, I would much rather have something that wins me the game than a gimmick that hardly does anything.

I believe that allowing Haze and Rapid Spin would also be a good idea for this concept, making it more effective in defensive/supporting roles, as well as in reversing defensive momentum. Taunt fits the bill here too.

 

[JGSabino]

Allow Batton Pass - Without Stat Up moves, Wynaut?

Allow Yawn and Perish Song - Great moves. Perish Song lets your opponent attack one more turn than Yawn, but works if the opoent already has a status. It will break through Batton Pass chains, but Taunt already does it.

Allow Taunt - duh, Taunt is almost a must.

Allow Roost - Sableye has WoW and Murkrow has Evolution Stone, so don't say that CAP 1 is too bulky. Wish should also be considered.

Allow Glare, not T-Wave - Both paralyze the opponnent. Glare can't touch Ghost-types and Thunder Wave can't hit Ground-types. But Glare has less accuracy, makes more sense and doesn't turn CAP 1 into a pseudo Eletric-type mon (Volt Switch and T-Wave...).

Disallow Trick/Switcheroo - This means Choice items, do we really want Scarf/Specs on it?

Allow Memento and Healing Wish - It will be awesome with Prankster and will really help to earn momentum with a final move.

Allow Encore - Encore is awesome, again Wynaut?

Allow Tailwind - Tailwind not only boosts its speed, but also boosts all its team's speed. It's a good move, but it isn't broken .-.
IMO, that's all.

 

[Thorhammer]

Rethinking it... No opinion on Memento. But if it turns out to give too much of a bonus to certain setup sweepers, I will say "I told you so".

Also, allow Healing Wish. The suicide moves are a good idea, and Healing Wish seems less likely to cause issues.

Wish seems a bit questionable. We don't want to be trying to give Tomohawk every single good support move just because we can.

 

[Bughouse]

Pending
Disallow Agility, Rock Polish, etc. Sweeping is not the goal. Plus passing agilities with priority is scary. Gliscor does it without priority and it works.
Allow Baton Pass Even better for scouting than normal, since it gains priority.
Disallow Counter The only way this can be used is on a sash lead set I figure. And those are basically suicidal and don't gain much momentum at all.
Disallow Confuse Ray I don't like purposeful abuse of hax as could be done on a Confuse Ray, Sub, Baton Pass type set.
Allow FeatherDance This will help shut down certain physical threats even more, but have zero effect on major threats to CAP 1 like Starmie.
Disallow Haze I see no reason why it wouldn't use Phazing instead and rack up hazards damage.
Disallow Ingrain No Ingrain + Baton Pass!
Allow Magic Coat Surprise!
Disallow Mirror Coat See Counter basically.
Disallow Rain Dance With good bulk and speed (plus priority on Rain Dance) CAP 1 would simply overcentralize Rain again, since you can use Swift Swimmers again with this pseudo-Politoed.
Allow Roost Obvious good recovery is obvious. Helps against rock moves too.
Disallow Sleep Talk Priority Rest + Sleep Talk + Dragon Tail = Broken.
DISALLOW SPORE Do I even need to explain?
Allow Switcheroo/Trick Absolutely. Trick a Lagging Tail with priority? Yes! Trick a Choice item? Yes! Trick an Iron Ball to a Levitator/Flying-type? Yes!
Allow Taunt CAP 1 won't be doing anything if it gets statused (except burn I guess)
Allow U-Turn Absolutely on a momentum poke. Especially since I don't like Volt Switch
Allow Yawn Sleep threat forces switches = momentum.

 

[Deck Knight]

I'll separate these into a few broad categories:

Stat-Downs:

Stat Downs are very helpful for the concept, and work very well with Prankster. Here are the three I suggest:

Featherdance, Scary Face, Screech for Allowed.

Featherdance is epic to aid THawk in taking down physically-based Pokemon, of which there are many. Combined with Prankster, it can greatly reduce the threat of powerful Dragon Dancers.

Scary Face lowers speed by two stages, so it's not quite as crippling as paralysis, but it does serve the same effect of nuetering switch-ins temporarily.

Screech is more offense minded, but it aids allies with Pursuit, setting them up for victory against incoming Psychic types countering THawk.

Another Stat-Down that might be useful is Tickle. It's not quite as good as either Featherdance or Screech, so it might just be a distraction, but it does counter Bulk-Ups and is generally useful.

I'm not too keen on any +2 Statups, which should be dissalowed. We don't want a self-starting sweeper here. Bulk Up, Work Up, and Hone Claws have quite enough utility. I could be convinced perhaps of Agility, but not when comined with Baton Pass.

With only these (and without Agility) at it's disposal, it's safe to Allow Baton Pass. Drypassing is pretty cool, and so is Subpassing some 101HP Subs.

Status: For reliable statuses, Toxic, Hypnosis, and Yawn for allowed.

Toxic is a given, and Yawn is excellent but here is my reasoning for Hypnosis. Hypnosis is fairly innacurate, but it's made quite viable when combined with Hone Claws. A set of Hone Claws/Hypnosis/Circle Throw/Air Slash could be utilized quite effectively to neutralize one of the opponents threats and shuffle them about. It wouldn't sweep on its own, but it would disrupt an opponent's momentum. I suppose you could argue Hurricane over Air Slash since it has been allowed, but Air Slash doesn't need a Hone Claws boost to be viable in weathers other than Rain.

Other Attacks:

Allow Roost: Nuetralizing Flying's considerable weaknesses for a round is extremely helpful for keeping THawk around.

Allow Memento and Grudge: These attacks are highly useful with Prankster to stop an opponent in their tracks as the cost of losing THawk.

Allow Reflect, Light Screen, and Safeguard: These have similar effects to +2 boosters, for for the entire team. Nothing uses Safeguard presently, but it could be helpful.

 

[Flarephoenix332]

Yawn - Allow
Yawn would provide some momentum, forcing opponents to switch out. I don't see this being very abusable with Prankster to beat THawk's counters, unless THawk yawns when they switch in. THawk doesn't want to stay in just to hit Thundurus with a Yawn, and then get hit by w/e Thundurus throws back.

Morning Sun - Allow if Roost doesn't get allowed
Morning Sun is subject to weather problems, and thus is a less reliable recovery move, but still better than Rest, if THawk doesn't get Roost. The reason I don't include Moonlight here is pure flavour (since they're the same move).

U-Turn - Disallow
We already have Volt Switch, which has better type coverage, and is more useful from a competitive standpoint (seeing as it made it into the Attacking Movepool Discussion). U-Turn would be redundant. Sure, U-Turn has no pokemon immune to it, but to me, that is what makes Volt Switch a better option. I hate how many people associate this with momentum, seeing as how slow THawk is compared to the rest of the metagame, and specifically its counters. Plus, of THawk's main counters, Reuniclus resists it (but THawk as a pitiful attack), and the Electric/Flying duo resist it.

Baton Pass - Allow
I love the momentum Baton Pass keeps, specially over U-Turn and Volt Switch (bar hitting Gyarados). Baton Pass transfers stat ups, switches THawk out, and gets priority (U-Turn doesn't).

 

[capefeather]

There are way too many moves to talk about >.< To avoid sounding really repetitive, I'll only go over only moves that I want disallowed, as well as some of the controversial moves talked about so far (y'know, as is supposed to happen by the last sentence of the OP).

I strongly believe that +2 Def boosting moves and -2 Atk reducing moves should be disallowed but Reflect, Haze and Clear Smog should be allowed. The big problem with Iron Defense et al is that they stack. We run the risk of having Prankster outclass Intimidate almost entirely, especially if recovery moves are allowed (and I strongly believe in allowing recovery moves for similar reasons to what reachzero posted). Consider that 100% raw damage output from a faster Pokémon is enough to KO Intimidate Tomohawk through Intimidate, but it's not enough to KO Prankster Tomohawk through Iron Defense. This is seriously messed up. Please disallow it.

I also strongly believe that Taunt should be disallowed but Torment and Disable should be allowed. Prankster Taunt is often blamed for killing a lot of the viability of defensive teams, and I don't see the benefit from gifting Tomohawk with this capability. Disable and Torment achieve the concept much more precisely, getting a last laugh from sweepers who manage to KO it without completely shutting down defensive Pokémon.

Spikes and Toxic Spikes should be disallowed but Stealth Rock should be allowed. The stacking nature of Spikes and Toxic Spikes is again the main distinction here.

Disallow Speed-altering moves. I'm not sure why this was contested when Agility, Scary Face, etc. allows Tomohawk to take a potshot at Thundurus and Lati@s. Something like LO Agility + 3 attacks is not something that I'd want running around the playtest ladder.

I believe that combining sleep/confusion and Substitute will make for a potentially dangerous combo. Consider that a supposed check switching into a Substitute has to hit Tomohawk twice through confusion; this has a 25% probability of occurring within the next two turns. However, there is the drawback of requiring Hidden Power Ice on top of these two moves in the case of Thundurus and Lati@s, and not being very effective against Reuniclus. Nonetheless, I don't see much benefit to the concept for these moves, as there's a lot on the line if they don't work as the user may want. Disallow Confuse Ray and sleep moves other than Yawn.

Memento I feel may be a bit dangerous, but ultimately, considering SpD boosting moves are disallowed, allowing it might is probably OK. I also don't see too much of a problem with weather moves, as Rain Dance is pretty awkward on this CAP and Sunny Day is extremely not noteworthy.

I'd rather have Baton Pass than Ingrain.

 

[Thorhammer]

Disallow Haze I see no reason why it wouldn't use Phazing instead and rack up hazards damage.

Prankster. Priority Haze can shut down any setup sweeper before it hits you, unless it's using priority itself. Phazing can do no such thing.

Regarding dual screens, that would be a bad idea. Deoxys-S is already being accused of being uber, likely for reasons largely related to its dual screen abilities, and it has worse defenses, a worse type, and lacks priority with which to use screens. Its incredibly high Speed allows it to get almost the same effect, but not quite.

However, I agree with other previous suggestions. Featherdance, Scary Face, Torment, Disable, and Grudge for allowed. Screech seems less useful for Tomohawk because of it being specially based, for which reason I suggest Metal Sound for allowed instead.

 

[Shaggles]

Pending
Acid Armor/Iron Defense-I do not see it necessary to allow these moves because i feel that boosting defence doesn't really goes well with the concept
Acid Spray-I wouldn't mind this being allowed, the -2 Sp.Def drop would definitely help with keeping momentum (bar steel types, but that's what fighting STAB is for amirite?)
Agility, Rock Polish, etc.-I myself would prefer this to be allowed, however, i feel with baton pass, it should be not allowed
Aromatherapy/Heal Bell-I think there are better pokemon to fill the cleric role and again, i don't see how this supports the concept
Barrier-See Acid Armor/Iron Defence
Baton Pass-Disallowed, priority Baton Pass is something i'd prefer not having.
Block/Mean LookAllow, i think having mean look/block to nail potential switch ins and switch to a counter would be an unused strategy that might gain some use through this pokemon
Counter-I think it should be allowed.
Clear Smog-Im not so sure on this move, personally, i don't feel like this pokemon should be switching into stat boosters nor does it have the speed to really pull it off. On the other hand, it is a great move to gaining momentum whilst not being considered broken
Confuse Ray-Not a huge fan on priority confuse ray, i'd rather see this as un allowed
Disable-With a priority disable, this would allow it to switch into choice users and maim them.
Encore-Combining a priority encore along with really any stat boosting move really pushes this CAP as a sweeper which i dont think is the original concept
Feather Dance-Attack drop would definitely help keep momentum
Flame Charge-I say allow this, it's a somewhat mediocre way of boosting speed which wont cause much harm or rarely be seen.
Gravity-Priority Gravity plus loosing your flying typing? No thanks
Haze-Priority Haze does seem broken and an easy way to shut down any stat booster
Healing Wish-Lol, is this even being considered?
Hypnosis-No priority sleep moves
IngrainAgain, don't see the point of this
Leech Seed-I feel like this CAP wouldn't be able to utilise this well. A waste of a move on this CAP
Lovely Kiss/Sleep Powder-No Priority sleep moves
Magic Coat-An interesting way to keep momentum. I say allow.
Memento-I personally don't think killing yourself for a -2/-2 is worth it, this pokemon should be able to keep momentum without even considering this move.
Mirror Coat-I think this should be allowed.
Moonlight/Morning Sun-I feel that this form of recovery is nice and somewhat of an effective way to deal with weather.
Pain Split-Allow, a nice way of maintaining momentum by smacking a switch in for some nice-ish damage whilst recovering some of your own health.
Perish Song-Allow, a somewhat decent way of creating and retaining momentum. I don't see CAP staying in for more than 3 turns anyways.
Psycho Shift-Disallow. Priority Status essentially can be broken. Especially if there is a rest/psychoshift set.
Rain Dance-Disallow. I would like to see CAP steer away from weather, there are better pokemon to do so.
Rapid Spin-Disallow. A pokemon weak to stealth rocks and the chance of getting spin blocked would take away momentum.
Recover, Slack Off, etc.-I'd prefer to not see priority reliable recovery personally.
Refresh-Doesn't really gel well with the concept in all honesty.
Roost-Again, priority recovery
Sleep Talk-A 1/3 chance of having this move fail would be catastrophic in a serious moment. I think it should be disallowed.
Spikes-Priority spikes? No thanks, besides, with Ferrothorn around, there's easy access to this move.
Spore-Lol? Fuck off.
Stealth Rock-Same vein as spikes
Switcheroo/Trick-I think this would be an interesting move. Having a choice scarf to switch in, quickly gain momentum and then when it's not needed, crippling another pokemon? Yeah sure.
Swords Dance-CAP just doesn't have the attack to really make use of Swords dance.
Taunt-This one im not sure on. Im kinda neutral on this move :|
Toxic Spikes-No thanks, i'd rather not see priority hazards.
U-Turn-I question this move with Volt Switch being allowed, coming off a weaker attack stat but with the luxury of not being stopped by an attacking type. I say yes based off the idea of momentum and that Volt Switch's failing on ground types.
Wish-Not allowed.
Yawn-Allow. This move allows for sleep for those foolish enough to stay in and shuffling for those who do not.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[jas61292]

There has been a lot of discussion over weather priority Roost would be too good against Tomohawks counters, so I just thought I would give my opinion. I actually don't think it would be that good at all for it. While it allows you to recover before taking a hit, and shed a weakness at the same time, it doesn't do anything back to the opponent and whenever you decide not to recover, you will likely be slower and take that powerful SE hit. So against its main counters such as Thundrus, is it really going to do anything but delay the inevitable?

However, one thing that has not been brought up is how it may actually be at a disadvantage to Recover or other reliable recovery when going against the Pokemon Tomohawk is supposed to beat. Priority Roost would shed not only its weaknesses, but also its resistances, so if Tomo comes into a battle not at full health, and takes a hit to put it low on health, it can't recover without having a chance to be hit by a powerful Neutral STAB like Excadrill's EQ or a Close Combat from a fighting type. Since Tomo was designed to take hits from these Pokemon thanks to its resistances, losing them can actually put it at a disadvantage.

Right now, I am just not sure weather or not these flaws make it not broken and thus allowable, or if they are bad enough that it would be better to just disallow it for some other form of recovery.

Granted, on an Intimidate set, I have no problem with Roost at all.

On a completely different note

I'm not as certain of that. Okay, Spore is overkill, but Sleep Clause means that this is actually LESS powerful than paralysis. Keep in mind that Tomohawk is pretty slow, and there are major disadvantages to being slower than a sleeping Pokemon with the new sleep mechanics. Of course, if we so desire we could also simply make sleep moves (Hypnosis, Lovely Kiss, lol Sing) illegal with Prankster.

I would just like to say I disagree with this. Sure, paralysis may be worse in many situations, but I would definitely say sleep has the potential to be much more powerful overall. I don't know about you, but when it looks like my opponent is about to decimate my team, I would much rather have my entire team paralyzed than have my only counter be asleep. Its true paralysis can be spread all over when sleep can't, but the power of a single Pokemon being asleep has the potential to do much more damage than anything paralysis can do.

That being said, if you want to give it Sing, I would totally be up for that.

lol

 

[Thorhammer]

The reliable recovery moves might not be so bad, as long as they're illegal with Prankster.

...We need a good way to make that distinction at this stage.

 

[Staraptor Call]

Haze and Featherdance should be disallowed. If Tomohawk had Haze, it could shut down any stat-boosting sweeper immediately after switching in. This would make Tomohawk overpowered when it comes to stopping offensive setup sweepers. Also, giving Tomohawk priority Featherdance would mean nobody would ever use Intimidate, since being able to lower the opponent's Attack two stages with priority any number of times is much better than only being able to lower its Attack one stage upon switching in. Also, with Prankster, Tomohawk would be able to use other priority non-attacking moves, which wouldn't work with Intimidate. However, Screech, Metal Sound, and Scary Face should be allowed. They don't outclass Intimidate and they serve to force switches.

Disallow Trick/Switcheroo. Item-switching moves encourage using Choice item sets, and Choice items are detrimental to their users' momentum. The loss of momentum that comes from using a Choice set outweighs the momentum gain from Tricking the Choice item, because Tricking only gives momentum once but Choice items can make a Pokemon lose momentum multiple times over the course of a match.

Disallow all boosting moves. This includes Nitro Charge and Tailwind. We don't want Tomohawk to become a sweeper, and boosting moves encourage just that. Especially if Tomohawk gets reliable recovery, there would be a big temptation to run a Life Orb sweeper set. Tomohawk could just recover off the Life Orb damage with priority recovery and continue its sweep.

Disallow entry hazards. Setting up an entry hazard doesn't give the user a momentum advantage at all. In fact, it makes the user lose a turn in which they could be maintaining offensive momentum. And disallow Heal Bell/Aromatherapy because they're support moves that require expending momentum to use and don't give any momentum in return. In a similar vein, Knock Off should be disallowed because it doesn't give the user much momentum.

Disallow Roar and Whirlwind. Roar and Whirlwind do not actually give the user momentum. Instead, they just make both players use up and turn and make the opponent take entry hazard damage. Roar and Whirlwind would encourage the use of Tomohawk as a hazard shuffler on stall teams, which is not what we want it to be.

Allow Hail. Using priority to change the weather to something most opponents don't want is a good way to gain momentum against weather teams, since it disrupts weather sweepers and can force opponents to switch in weather-starters.

Disallow Pain Split, since it wouldn't really do anything for Tomohawk momentum-wise. It's only useful at low health and doesn't recover very much damage (unless it's against Blissey, which Tomohawk shouldn't stay in on in the first place). It doesn't force switches, stop sweeps, force the opponent's hand, or anything like that.

Allow Taunt, Disable, and Torment. These moves force the opponent's hand and make the opponent's moves more predictable. They can also force switches against Pokemon that are Choiced or rely heavily on certain moves.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Kinda sad that paralysis has been excluded, though I can see the reasoning behind it. Still, as long as we have something worth using...

Brief thoughts:

Acid Armor/Iron Defense - DISALLOW. I'm pretty wary of any set-up move, especially with Prankster, and it seems to me that it would be pretty easy to abuse these moves to allow it to counter physical threats. I'm not a big fan of them. While they aren't Cosmic Power, they seem quite easy to rack up. This would go for Amnesia as well.
Agility, Rock Polish, etc. - DISALLOW. Not relevant to the concept and no point having them except to sweep things. Sure, you're threatening, but not in the way the concept demands.
Aromatherapy/Heal Bell - ALLOW. This seems to be a pretty cool way of grabbing momentum, by jumping in and quickly healing off poison or paralysis in order to foil another's sweep, even at the cost of Tomohawk's life. It's pretty similar to Memento or Healing Wish in that respect.
Barrier - DISALLOW. See Acid Armor.
Baton Pass - YES YES YES. Who needs a fast U-turn when you can have a priority Baton Pass? This looks like a pretty damn good momentum tool any way you look at it, especially if you have a Substitute up. As long as we don't give it any really strong boosting moves, I'm all for it. Actually, come to think of it, I wouldn't mind seeing some strong boosting moves on it as well - that's another form of momentum, I guess.
Disable ALLOW. I can see this being very useful in order to halt a sweep.
Encore ALLOW. See above. A fringe option, certainly, but one that I feel is worth thinking about.
Feather Dance ALLOW. See above.
Flame Charge DISALLOW. Again, I don't want Speed-boosting moves.
Haze ALLOW. Yay for removing boosts.
Hypnosis ALLOW. It's a threatening weapon that isn't overpowered.
Leech Seed DISALLOW. Erufuun is already horrifying without an ounce of offensive power. With 115 SpA and a Fighting/Flying typing, this is looking ridiculous.
Lovely Kiss/Sleep Powder - DISALLOW. Too accurate for sleep moves, and Hypnosis is as far as I'm willing to go in that direction.
Magic Coat - ALLOW. A nice niche option and perfect fro momentum-grabbing.
Perish Song ALLOW. - Can put a stop to a sweep by any setup Pokemon, so is really worth its salt. I'd strongly support its inclusion.
Rapid Spin - DISALLOW. - Not a good idea imo. We don't want it to have too much. To be quite honest, I'm pretty indifferent where this ends up, but if it's between this and another support move, I'd have to side with the others on this list.
Recover, Slack Off, etc. ALLOW. - Tomohawk should have some form of reliable recovery. If Roost doesn't get selected, then I'll back these two.
Roost - ALLOW. See above. I don't really think this is that broken, especially when this guy has no status moves and no set-up moves, as well as only mediocre offences.
Spore - DISALLOW. Just reiterating that this is rather too much.
Switcheroo/Trick - ALLOW. Another interesting way to cripple an opponent.
Swords Dance - ALLOW. I'd like to see Tomohawk's physical side get a bit of a look in - and thanks to Baton Pass, one can maintain momentum even if they come up against something like, say, Skarmory.
Taunt - ALLOW. Stopping things from setting up is a big, big plus, and I also do not want Reuniclus to see Tomohawk as a completely free switch. Smack it with Psychic all you want, but don't set up Calm Mind. This should also be useful for stopping hazards from going up, and the like. To those people who say it will wreck defensive teams... honestly, in that situation I would have thought that they'd be able to adapt to it, much like they supposedly did to Thundurus and the like.
U-Turn - ALLOW. Good scouting tool, and Tomohawk has the advantage of a slow U-turn to allow its teammates to enter battle safely.

That's all I really care about. I don't have time to go more in-depth, but if anybody wants additional reasoning I'll be happy to provide (later).

 

[Onetwobanana]

Disallow Trick/Switcheroo. Item-switching moves encourage using Choice item sets, and Choice items are detrimental to their users' momentum. The loss of momentum that comes from using a Choice set outweighs the momentum gain from Tricking the Choice item, because Tricking only gives momentum once but Choice items can make a Pokemon lose momentum multiple times over the course of a match.

I think that this is honestly a point in favor of Trick. Yes, using a Choice item is detrimental to your momentum until you Trick it away, but once you do, the item is now detrimental to your opponent's momentum. Depending on how conservative you are with using Tomo pre-Trick, you can easily wind up with a net gain of momentum in your favor.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Edit: Just a minor rant: I'm also pretty disappointed to a) see that Thunder Wave/Glare are already initially Disallowed; and b) that apparantly these moves now don't warrant discussion here because they (according to Woodsy) have already been discussed a great deal on IRC, meaning Reach has already reached a consensus before the thread even opened on them, and put them in Disallowed. It's a strong TL model, and Reach has all the rights to put these moves in Disallowed from the get-go. He probably doesn't even need to justify it. I'm just annoyed, once again, that apparantly IRC has been the place where all the discussion was, instead of the forum, once again.

Quoted for truth. The forum's where the CAPs are made, not IRC. Also, justification=good. Not justifying a decision is a sign of poor leadership IMO, and Reach has been pretty good at providing reasoning in my opinion. But that's irrelevant, onto the Pokemon.

Roost for allowed, but can we make it illegal with Prankster? This pokemon should have no method of boosting its stats. Boosting means this pokemon wants to attempt to sweep or damage the opponent's team, which is not the goal.

This might be a controversial opinion, but I would like to push for Dragon Tail/Circle Throw to be Disallowed. You might think, "but Lolcat, we need this pokemon to phaze so it can gain momentum for it's team!". But we don't need Dragon Tail for that. Dragon Tail is very unreliable as it's not 100% accurate and cannot defeat well-boosted opponents. What if Tomohawk's user made an error and let a Terrakion SD/RP against Tomohawk twice, or the opponent's Reuniclus is about to +3 sweep because your counter was critted? Dragon Tail helps nothing. The move we want here is Haze. With Prankster, Haze becomes an amazing weapon that 100% stops stat-uppers in their tracks, except Swords Dance Scizor and it's Bullet Punches of terror. But that's only one threat. Tomohawk (I wish I was active during the name poll, I had a good name idea and I don't like Tomohawk a lot) needs to be able to counter the opponent's momentum from stat boosting completely, not pray it survives a hit and counters back with a 90% move.

No to Dragon Tail, yes to Haze

Magic Coat for allowed, it's like Magic Bounce without the extreme brokenness. Clericing for disallowed.

Entry Hazards and Rapid Spin for disallowed. We don't need them, especially not with Prankster. This pokemon is not a field supporter, it's a momentum pokemon.

Featherdance and every weather move besides Rain Dance for allowed. For all you LC players, you remember Murkrow with Featherdance and Prankster. Good insurance against physical boosters. Weather moves are good for countering Weather teams if your Weather pokemon is dead/non-existent. However, Rain Dance (with Prankster) and Hurricane is too much, and turns this pokemon from a momentum changer into an outright weather sweeper. Sunny Day, Gravity, Sandstorm, and Hail are cool though.

Confuse Ray, Hypnosis (and variants) for Disallowed Priority Sleep and Confusion moves? Spells cheap, haxy, and unfair to me. Kinda broken, too. The opponent should have a fighting chance against Tomohawk, and something like that is plain unfair to the opponent. MAYBE Hypnosis without Prankster. MAYBE[/b]

Also, why is Reflect allowed and Light Screen not?

 

[GlassAbsol]

Memento: Allow, I think that once Tomo has been almost felled, with prankster, it can give an almost clean switch in for a counter of the pokemon, Causing a switch/taking an easy hit while setting up/destroying opponent all contribute massively to momentum. Tomo needs to be much more of a team player to fulfill his concept therefore Memento allows you to completely turn the tide of a battle.
Baton Pass: I'm not sure for this one. Prankster Baton pass could pass on some pretty good Boosting moves, and with the resisitances that Tomo has, there could be one or more boosts in store. and As possible it is to gain momentum with baton pass, if the opponent predicts well, and makes a good switch the pokemon that you just BPd could be killed sometimes by a priority move, therefore nullifting your momentum. Also if it's given the Stat boosting moves worth passing, it could end up being used as a sweeper which is not something we want. I'm going to go with Disallow for Baton Pass
I think that Haze should be allowed because if you stop a boosted sweeper in it's tracks with a swift Haze, you've instantly gotten a foot forward on them. Whatever it's going to throw at you is going to be significantly weaker even if it's just one DD it will make a difference, or if it's a defense boost ( :O I know right ) then you'll be more likely to KO them. Also For anybody who thinks that Phazing is a superior option to Haze, ahem, STALL =/= MOMENTUM

 

[Erick]

Also, why is Reflect allowed and Light Screen not?

Tomohawk is more easily countered by special attackers than physical attackers, as it has lower base Special Defense than Defense. Disallowing Light Screen, Amnesia, and Cosmic Power is likely an effort to keep that consistent so it doesn't become a difficult-to-pass wall. It's similar to how Blissey walls special attackers with ease but gets its ass kicked by physical attackers, only less extreme.

 

[Thorhammer]

Tomohawk is more easily countered by special attackers than physical attackers, as it has lower base Special Defense than Defense. Disallowing Light Screen, Amnesia, and Cosmic Power is likely an effort to keep that consistent so it doesn't become a difficult-to-pass wall. It's similar to how Blissey walls special attackers with ease but gets its ass kicked by physical attackers, only less extreme.

More significantly, Intimidate.

And dual screens would just be a bad idea.

 

[SJCrew]

I'd like to address this to the people in favor of disallowing Agility, since I think it's a big opportunity to ensure the success of this project's focus that cannot be missed.

As such, most battles are won by the smarter strategist who can best maneuver around his/her opponent's onslaught to gain even a single turn's advantage, potentially clinching them the match.

Certainly there are threats like Ferrothorn/Gliscor (defensive) and Scizor/Latios/Voltlos, etc., etc. (offensive) that can achieve momentum as we know it, but there is no current niche for a "momentum Pokemon" because the concept has been purely delegated to players and not to Pokemon.

Even in the initial concept, we've outlined the fact that momentum exists in both offensive and defensive forms, and yet, I still don't see us doing anything with offensive momentum. If Tomohawk can't seep to some degree, it won't be able to reverse offensive momentum during a stark disadvantage.

And giving it a +2 Speed move will not turn it into an automatic sweeper, like some of you are fearing. Versatile Pokemon with the right stat spreads circumvent this issue and fulfill multiple roles at the same time. Remember Metagross? He had awesome Attack, Agility, low speed, and a good movepool, but his most popular set ended up being the Lead. Even though Metagross was a fully capable sweeper, that wasn't his first and foremost trait.

To me, that's exactly the kind of thing we want here. Tomohawk can reverse momentum with Intimidate and the threat of an Agility sweep, but also with Prankster and a good supporting movepool. There's really no telling what he'll do when he comes out. That's the kind of versatility we want in a Pokemon capable of changing the flow of the match in so many ways.

And again, +2 Speed is not that big a deal, if it only had, say, Aura Sphere and Air Slash to work with. Baton Pass doesn't have to be included either, but if Tomo found itself up against Zapdos or something else it couldn't beat either way, you could just pass the boosts out without losing momentum. Mission accomplished. Why aren't we giving this idea more support?

 

[Fvm]

I'd say allow Encore, that would cause a few switches to get something in and put the battle in your favour. With Prankster, it can force people out pretty well, and would help Tomohawk's purpose of momentum

 

[Thorhammer]

I'd like to address this to the people in favor of disallowing Agility, since I think it's a big opportunity to ensure the success of this project's focus that cannot be missed. Even in the initial concept, we've outlined the fact that momentum exists in both offensive and defensive forms, and yet, I still don't see us doing anything with offensive momentum. If Tomohawk can't seep to some degree, it won't be able to reverse offensive momentum during a stark disadvantage.

And giving it a +2 Speed move will not turn it into an automatic sweeper, like some of you are fearing. Versatile Pokemon with the right stat spreads circumvent this issue and fulfill multiple roles at the same time. Remember Metagross? He had awesome Attack, Agility, low speed, and a good movepool, but his most popular set ended up being the Lead. Even though Metagross was a fully capable sweeper, that wasn't his first and foremost trait.

To me, that's exactly the kind of thing we want here. Tomohawk can reverse momentum with Intimidate and the threat of an Agility sweep, but also with Prankster and a good supporting movepool. There's really no telling what he'll do when he comes out. That's the kind of versatility we want in a Pokemon capable of changing the flow of the match in so many ways.

And again, +2 Speed is not that big a deal, if it only had, say, Aura Sphere and Air Slash to work with. Baton Pass doesn't have to be included either, but if Tomo found itself up against Zapdos or something else it couldn't beat either way, you could just pass the boosts out without losing momentum. Mission accomplished. Why aren't we giving this idea more support?

Priority Haze and Encore do everything to stop setup sweepers that Tomohawk could possibly need.

 

[Fvm]

Forgot to mention, it would be great if Roost was allowed, Tomohawk appreciates recovery so it can be useful throughout the match, and removing the Flying-type for a turn can help in some situations

 

[SJCrew]

@Thorhammer: Those only work if you switch in on boosting moves. It won't do anything if you try to take the initiative for yourself, or when you're revenged by something faster. Momentum shifting requires you to do a little more than piss off physical sweepers and twiddle your thumbs. We still can't do much about special sweepers either, who will just stomp Tomo to no end. There isn't much in its bag of tricks to change that, but at the very least, Agility attempts to remedy this issue by helping you win the match at the right opportunity.

 

[Thorhammer]

@Thorhammer: Those only work if you switch in on boosting moves. It won't do anything if you try to take the initiative for yourself, or when you're revenged by something faster. Momentum shifting requires you to do a little more than piss off physical sweepers and twiddle your thumbs. We still can't do much about special sweepers either, who will just stomp Tomo to no end. There isn't much in its bag of tricks to change that, but at the very least, Agility attempts to remedy this issue by helping you win the match at the right opportunity.

Priority Haze destroys any stat-ups of any sweeper no matter when you switch in, regardless of whether they're physical or special.

Setting up in their face isn't exactly a great alternative.