1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

CAP 12 CAP1 - Part 11a - (Non-Attacking Moves Discussion)

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by reachzero, Apr 2, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
    is a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,524
    Now that we have decided which attacking moves will be allowed into movepool submissions, it is time to turn our attention to non-attacking moves, using the same process. This step will be used to decide what attacking moves will be allowed onto this Pokemon. Non-attacking moves are defined by this article: http://www.smogon.com/cap/process/events/move_discussion . Moves such as Knock Off and Rapid Spin are considered non-attacking moves because they're weak and used for their secondary effects.

    I will include in this post a full list of non-attacking moves that are considered competitive for Tomohawk. If a non-attacking move is not included on this list, it is considered non-competitive on Tomohawk, and thus allowed by default.

    1. The list of moves will be separated into three sections indicating the "status" of the move in the current discussion -- Allowed, Disallowed, Controversial, or Pending.
      • Allowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be allowed in the Pokemon's final movepool
      • Disallowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to not be allowed in the Pokemon's final movepool
      • Controversial - Moves that did not reach general community consensus, and will require a specific vote.
      • Pending - Moves that have not received enough support or opposition to determine whether they are Allowed, Disallowed, or Controversial
    Moves that are considered Required are mandatory for all movepools.

    I put some moves into categories already. They aren't necessarily there permanently, but they won't change unless you post in an attempt to sway me.

    I believe that this will be one of the most important steps that will really make or break whether Tomohawk fulfills its concept, so let's be careful here!

    Here is the list of non-attacking moves we're looking at here:

    Required
    Toxic
    Protect
    Rest
    Attract
    Substitute
    Bulk Up
    Work Up
    Fling

    Pending




    Allowed

    Aromatherapy/Heal Bell
    Baton Pass
    Circle Throw
    Clear Smog
    Confuse Ray
    Counter
    Curse
    Detect
    Dragon Tail
    Encore
    Gravity
    Haze
    Healing Wish
    Hone Claws
    Ingrain
    Knock Off
    Magic Coat
    Block/Mean Look
    Memento
    Mirror Coat
    Moonlight/Morning Sun
    Perish Song
    Psycho Shift
    Rain Dance
    Rapid Spin
    Recover, Slack Off, etc.
    Reflect
    Refresh
    Roar/Whirlwind
    Roost
    Stealth Rock
    Taunt
    U-Turn
    Wish
    Yawn


    Disallowed
    Acid Armor/Iron Defense/Barrier
    Acid Spray
    Agility, Rock Polish, etc.
    Amnesia
    Belly Drum
    Calm Mind
    Charge Beam
    Coil
    Copycat
    Cosmic Power
    Cotton Guard
    Dragon Dance
    Feather Dance
    Flame Charge
    Glare
    Growth
    Leech Seed
    Light Screen
    Lovely Kiss/Sleep Powder
    Metal Sound
    Pain Split
    Nasty Plot
    Quiver Dance
    Shell Smash
    Shift Gear
    Sleep Talk
    Spikes
    Spore
    Stockpile
    Stun Spore
    Swords Dance
    Tail Glow
    Thunder Wave
    Toxic Spikes
    Will-O-Wisp


    Controversial
    Disable
    Hypnosis
    Switcheroo/Trick


    Here is our Pokemon so far:

    Name: Tomohawk

    Typing: Flying/Fighting

    Base Stats: 105 HP/60 Atk/90 Def/115 SpA/80 SpD/85 Spe

    Abilities: Intimidate/Prankster



    1. Move Discussion Posting Rules
      • The list of moves in this post will serve as the single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion.
      • Post arguments for moves to be Allowed or Disallowed from the Pokemon's final movepool. All posts should be presented with reasoning.
      • Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited. Do not copy the TL's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one. Posts that contain lists of moves will be deleted, even if the post contains additional reasoning and content.
      • The Topic Leader will update the list continuously throughout the discussion, using recent posts to determine changes to the move list. Moves may have a fluctuating status as the community debates for or against the move in response to changes in the OP.
      • Posts should be based on the current state of the list in the OP. It is the responsibility of each member to check the OP before making any post in the thread. Posts that demonstrate lack of familiarity with the current OP will be deleted.
      • The Topic Leader is the sole arbiter for determining "general community consensus". The TL may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if they feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as Controversial.
      • All moves that are considered Competitive for this Pokemon are included in the list in the OP. Non-Competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are incorrectly categorized and should be considered Competitive (see next rule).
      • If you disagree with the TL's categorization of a move as Competitive or Non-Competitive, you can post arguments in this thread, but reasoning must be supplied.


    Remember to only discuss moves that you think are controversial in that they have competitive merit. Let's do this!
  2. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2009
    Messages:
    3,171
    Agility/Rock Polish/Autotomize for disallowed. This has a fairly ok Special ATtack stat, and Agility will push it towards sweeping, so no.

    FeatherDance for allowed. Stat downs are pretty important for gaining momentum, and FDance + entry hazards support will really rack up the momentum.

    Perish Song for allowed. Sets the oppnent on a timer, pushing him on the backfoot. THis will be crucial to Tomohawk's success.

    First post, because I can.
  3. Solstice

    Solstice

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,268
    I just want to note that Quiver Dance isn't on a single list, so I would recommend an immediate placement of it into Disallowed. Reasoning, it would be overpowered. Duh.
  4. Attract

    Attract

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2011
    Messages:
    106
    I think Quiver Dance should be put straight into the Disallowed Forever column, and I'm only saying this because it's not already there.

    Edit: Bahaha, it really was just a race to say it.
  5. Yllnath

    Yllnath

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2008
    Messages:
    304
    I'd like to see Taunt, Encore, Yawn, and Roost in the Pending list for Allowed.
    The first 3 moves have great utility (combined with Prankster) in getting an opponent to switch out, as Taunt covers pokemon that rely on set-up moves, Encore punishes stat-up pokemon and Yawn is annoying to just about anything.
    Roost is a good form of recovery, as well as a pseudo-weakness remover, if predicted right, when used with Prankster. This means you always Roost first, and can soften up an incoming Ice/Electric attack.

    I'd like to see all hazard moves to be Disallowed (SR, both form of spikes). I just can't see how they belong on a pokemon like this, but that may just be me.
    Prankster Spore, I feel is way overpowered, because it can basically always shut down at least 1 pokemon during any given match, regardless of how careless you played and if you let an opponent get to +6 or something. Getting momentum back is one thing, but automatically getting to 100% certain disable something for the remainder of the match is too much, imo.
    One last move, Rapid Spin (Prankster). At the one hand, it's perfect for momentum changing, as you undo a few precious turns of set-up by the opponent, in just one turn as well as remove a threat to your team. On the other hand, though, I feel it might just be too much utility. Tomohawk will probably already have plenty of time to do all kinds of thing, because he will probably force out opponents regularly, and even though he may not have a solid way of dealing with ghosts himself, I feel he will still have ample oppertunity to use Rapid Spin whenever. And I feel just adding Rapid Spin will basically be a big butthurt to Stall teams, that rely on their hazards.

    So, Taunt, Encore, Yawn and Roost for Allowed
    Hazards for Disallowed
    Spore definitely for Disallowed
    Rapid Spin, leaning towards Disallowed.

    All other pending moves, couldn't care less.
  6. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon IRC SOPis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2005
    Messages:
    6,113
    Disallow Spore: Priority Spore -.-. Guess I don't need to say much on this matter since its ridiculous 9.9. On a similar token, disallow Hypnosis. However, allow Yawn as it is not forced sleep and can be used to control momentum.

    Allow Wish, Roost, and Recover. These options help keep Tomo alive so it can perform its duty whenever you wish it to. The concept says that the Pokemon can be utilized to manipulate momentum at any point in the match, and I think survivability is important here should it be faced against unfavorable opponents at unfavorable times.

    Disallow Spikes: As if Ferrothorn doesn't make Spikes common and easy enough already, Tomohawk can set up Spikes at an even easier rate thanks to Prankster and respectable bulk, while avoiding enemy Spikes simultaneously thanks to its typing. Furthermore, Tomohawk can not be trapped, and is tougher to take advantage of due to its high offensive power. It may not detract a whole lot from the concept, but the alarming ease of setting it up is detrimental to the playing field.

    Disallow Glare / Thunder Wave: I don't have much for this at the moment (and you already placed it in disallow anyways), but this open pretty much completely messes up every fast counter it has (and even the slow ones hate being paraed). Tomohawk can spread paralysis very easily due to its bulk and the fact that Ground types are afraid to switch on him (for Thunder Wave), while Glare just hits everything and is easily spammed. Not to mention how Air Slash and Hurricane can get extra annoying with the flinch/confusion chance. Oh and don't get me started on Prankster Thunder Wave/Glare....
  7. SgtWoodsy

    SgtWoodsy

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,220
    I would also advise placing Spore into Disallowed.

    I mean, seriously, we spend a great deal of time in #cap arguing over whether paralysis is broken on this thing. Sleep would be even worse.
  8. Paradox

    Paradox

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2010
    Messages:
    234
    Quick post, but yes on Yawn. Forcing an opponent to choose between sleep and shuffling is a great momentum move. Also a definite no on Spore, this move is just far to overpowered for us to throw around, especially onto a Pokemon that is already so great.

    Something that I think warrants significant discussion is Roost. Prankster recovery is an extremely effective tool, as anyone who has used Murkrow in LC (or even OU) or Sableye in DW can attest to, and this is with very relatively frail and offensively weak Pokemon (though complemented with FeatherDance or WoW). Of course, recovery is very important for this Pokemon (at least imo) so I'd lean towards Allowed (or maybe just Recover?) Of course, we could also make Roost illegal with Prankster, though that's pretty convoluted.
    tl;dr don't underestimate the power/utility of Prankster Roost - it is very good

    Edit: I think Wish is definitely a good idea though. Gives you something to do in free turns given by Sub/Encore/Whatever other than attack and gains an insignificant boost from Prankster. Also, why is Light Screen disallowed? Helps beat counters too easily?
  9. Yllnath

    Yllnath

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2008
    Messages:
    304
    If Roost may be too much, then perhaps make Morning Sun the only recovery available.
    In Sandstorm and Rain (and hail, but that's a whole lot less common), it heals less.

    However, against Sandstorm teams, Tomohawk already has an edge, due to typing. Tomohawk was pretty much statted to deal with SS teams through bulk and typing, and having reliable recovery against sandstorm teams would be even more annoying to the sandstorm user, when he already has a hard time dealing with Tomohawk. So I'd be all for Tomohawk having reduced healing against SS teams.

    Against Rain teams, Tomohawk is actually at a pretty clear disadvantage, and no matter how much you try to outroost, I think boosted water attacks from bulky water types, or Thunders from the likes of Thundurus are going to destroy him anyway, reliable recovery or not.

    Ice teams will have a rough time going up against a fighting type, period. Prankster Taunt will completely crap over Stallrein and Aura Sphere deals with a lot of pokemon commonly found on Ice teams.

    That leaves Sun teams and teams with no weather, where Morning Sun suddenly has 50% or higher recovery.

    If Roost is deemed to be too overpowered, (I personally feel it's great, but not too good) or any reliable recovery move for that matter, then I'd love to see Morning Sun at the very least to be Allowed





    Edit: Just a minor rant: I'm also pretty disappointed to a) see that Thunder Wave/Glare are already initially Disallowed; and b) that apparantly these moves now don't warrant discussion here because they (according to Woodsy) have already been discussed a great deal on IRC, meaning Reach has already reached a consensus before the thread even opened on them, and put them in Disallowed. It's a strong TL model, and Reach has all the rights to put these moves in Disallowed from the get-go. He probably doesn't even need to justify it. I'm just annoyed, once again, that apparantly IRC has been the place where all the discussion was, instead of the forum, once again.

    Regardless, I still would like to see Thunder Wave (not Glare) to be allowed. It has no utility against ground types and can also be predicted against by having a Motor Drive/Volt Absord/Lightningrod on your team to take the incoming TW, and actually be at an advantage. (Unlike Glare, that can pretty much paralyze anything)
    I see no reason to completely disallow paralysis. It has no Serene Grace, so paraflinch haxing isn't nearly as effective or annoying as it is on Togekiss. And seeing that aside from Work Up, it has no way to set up fast, and I don't really see this thing sweeping anytime soon. Not to mention that it will only have 2 moves on such a set to attack with (TW/Work Up/X/X), meaning that Blissey or Chansey can wall it all day long, and cripple Tomohawk with status. And it has no room for other useful moves like Taunt. That, and unlike a Rock Polish, you'll have to TW every faster pokemon on your opponents team seperately, just to sweep. That's a lot of turns, just given away for free.
    I'm not sure why Thunder Wave has been deemed disallowed, but unless I'd see a snippet of the IRC discussion that stated it was too OP and need to be disallowed, I'd like to open up discussion on them, because I feel TW is far from OP or too much utility. Hence why I'd like to see it allowed.
  10. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    2,883
    First of all, I think all sleep moves bar Yawn should be disallowed. Priority sleep would just be broken, but using it to phase with Yawn would be fine.

    Second, we don't want Tomo to become a sweeper, so I suggest disallowing all stat up moves for SpA and Spe. And while we are at it, why not just eliminate SD as well, it people see a way too it could just end up going physical more often than not.

    Third on my disallow list is all entry hazards. They just don't make sense for a pokemon that is trying to shift momentum as they just "waste" turns that could be used for grabbbing momentum

    In the same vein I would also disallow Rapid Spin. That is just a different concept than we are going for.

    As far as moves it should get, I am all for Encore. It can switch into slower Pokemon who try to set up and stop them in its tracks, but wont stop any of its counters from taking it out.

    U-Turn is another great move for it. I would have prefered it not get Volt Switch, but wither way, I think U-Turn is the option that will help it better fit its concept.

    Finally, Momento, while not a popular move, actually fits Tomo very well. It allows it to come in a situation that is looking grim, and as long as it can get one move off, potentially sacrafice itself to put a full stop to the opponent and possible save the battle.

    I also believe it should get some form of recovery, but I am open to it being almost anything right now.

    In Summary:
    Disallow Sleep Moves other than Yawn
    Disallow Agility, Rock Polish, Flame Charge, and Swords Dance
    Disallow Stealth Rocks, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes
    Disallow Rapid Spin
    Allow Encore
    Allow U-Turn
    Allow Momento
  11. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,132
    Shouldn't Barrier be slashed alongside Acid Armor and Iron Defense (not important though)?

    Non attacking moves are much more complicated to implement than attacking moves for this concept. I'll try the "obvious" ones (relevant to the concept) first.

    Agreeing with Destiny Warrior about Perish Song for Allowed. It forces your opponent to play with the counter in mind. You must switch out or die in the end.

    Healing Wish provides a decent flow for your team and allows your targeted offensive forces to have another round at sweeping (and it makes it easy to use with Prankster). Some Pokemon are hard to face more than once. I'm going for Allowed on it.

    Block/Mean Look have been pretty much nerfed this generation. The only way they are truly viable now is if they're used with "certain other moves." I won't say what here. But looking at the moves by themselves, they obviously halt your opponent. They cannot easily bring in another Pokemon, which should slow them down (if you've blocked the right one of course). I'll argue the moves for Allowed.
  12. Unlimited Breadsticks

    Unlimited Breadsticks

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2009
    Messages:
    73
    Spore (or as it's known in japan Mushroom Spore) should be disallowed less for flavor purposes (though it makes even less sense than Volt Switch) and more that it is completely absurd to have priority autosleep. Yawn works for the CAP because it forces your opponent to make a decision on the fly which almost necessitates a switch, netting you some of the sought-after momentum. Spore, for all intents and purposes, is inferior to Yawn in this concept because Yawn gives you a stronger sense of momentum control.
  13. Onetwobanana

    Onetwobanana

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    93
    I'd like to move for Trick/Switcheroo to be moved to Allowed. Priority Tricking would be a stupendous way for Tomo to steal momentum in your favor.

    I agree with Speed Boosting Moves and Hazards being moved to disallowed. Priority hazards is insanity, while Agility and its clones push Tomo way too much in the sweeping direction.

    Spore, Hypnosis, etc etc, should be moved to disallowed. However, Yawn should be allowed, for reasons stated above me.

    Haze should be allowed for sure. Priority Haze just sounds like far too much fun, and removing a stat-up sweepers stat-ups is a wonderful way to disrupt momentum.

    As far as Roost and the like go...I would be inclined to vote for them to be moved to disallowed. Like Paradox said above me, Murkrow and Sableye are both pretty rough customers with their priority healing moves. Giving that power to something as bulky as Tomo is a terrifying prospect, and may very well make Tomo damn near immortal. Wish, however, would be great on Tomo, especially in conjunction with (you guessed it) Baton Pass.

    Summary of my current opinion:

    Trick/Switcheroo: Allowed
    Speed Boosting Moves: Disallowed
    Hazards: Disallowed
    Spore/Hypnosis/Sleep Powder/Lovely Kiss: Disallowed
    Yawn: Allowed
    Haze: Allowed
    Roost/Recover/Slack off: Disallowed
    Wish: Allowed
    Baton Pass: Allowed
  14. Erick

    Erick

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2011
    Messages:
    68
    Disallow Spore. It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't priority, but it is. It would still be able gain momentum but it would likely end up doing it exclusively by abusing priority Spore, which would be a huge pain in the ass for everyone, since Sleep sucks.

    Disallow Lovely Kiss, Sleep Powder, and Hypnosis. Same reason as above, only they're not nearly as bad as Spore as they have 75% and 60% accuracy instead of 100%. Although relying on low accuracy moves is kind of bad by itself, especially on Tomohawk, since a miss could give momentum to your opponent. They're bad both ways you look at it.

    Disallow Agility, Rock Polish, and Automotize. We don't want a special sweeper. I'm unsure about Nitro Charge, because it boosts speed by only one stage and can be blocked by Flash Fire, but I'm leaning towards disallowing that too.

    Allow Yawn. As long as you're not actually putting them to Sleep but still threatening them with it, it's okay. It's also one of the best ways to force Pokemon out.

    Allow Feather Dance. A good way to neutralize and force out physical attackers. It can also make things a little more difficult for some set-up sweepers.

    Allow Haze and Clear Smog. Another way to beat set up sweepers, or boosting tanks and walls that are otherwise difficult to get rid of.

    Allow Taunt. This is one of the moves I want most for Tomohawk, as it helps it beat almost every set-up Pokemon not named Reuniclus. Having a Pokemon set up on you is detrimental to Tomohawk's cause, but Tauntmohawk solves this easily.

    Allow U-turn. Volt Switch is already allowed, this is an alternative for those who don't wish to get blocked by Ground types. Scouts switch-ins, giving you a chance to keep momentum when a counter comes in.

    Allow Roost, Recover, and Slack Off. Tomohawk has good bulk, but not enough to last a while in the face of powerful attackers. Tomohawk isn't a late game cleaner or a kamikaze, it will likely be useful the whole match, so it needs the added survivability. Edit: Some people mentioned that Roost and maybe other recovery might be bad as I was typing this. I still think it would be okay to allow it, but if not, I'm also fine with just getting the other two, or even Morning Sun / Moonlight / Synthesis (Allow those too), but I feel it should get some means of recovery. Wish with Baton Pass is okay (and thusly should be Allowed), but not as good for recovering its own HP and is more of a support thing, which other Pokemon do better.

    A lot of the ones I asked to be allowed seem a little redundant when you have Circle Throw / Dragon Tail, but there are probably still uses for them.
  15. Luigifan

    Luigifan

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2010
    Messages:
    170
    Okay, here's my thoughts on this issue.

    Disallow Spore, Sleep Powder, etc. Allow Yawn. Sleep moves other than Yawn shouldn't be allowed. As several people said before me, letting Tomohawk have access to non-delayed sleep moves (especially reliable sleep moves like Spore) is really over the top. Yawn, though, puts your opponent in a tough position - waste this turn switching, or take this turn with the in-play Pokemon and then waste several turns waiting for it to wake up? Either way, your opponent loses momentum. So, yeah, definitely keep Yawn.

    Allow Haze. The current metagame relies too much on psuedohazing to deal with stat-boosters, which is either slow or gives the opponent too much control. Having a decent user of Haze around - especially one with Prankster - will help to ensure that your opponent's stat boosts are wasted, without giving them time to whack you while they still have their boosts.

    Allow Roost. Tomohawk needs instant recovery capabilities to last through the match and continue to gain momentum.

    Allow Thunder Wave or Glare, but not both. While the speed drop caused by paralysis can be annoying, its major momentum-stealing aspect - full paralysis - is rather reliant on hax. However, since paralysis is difficult to remove, it could manage to rob your opponent of their momentum right at the most inopportune time, helping your team to soar to victory. I'd recommend allowing Thunder Wave or Glare - however, I'm not 100% sure that allowing both of them would be a good idea. This is because, as people above me stated, allowing Tomohawk to inflict paralysis too reliably could lead to it slinging paralysis around and nothing else. Both Thunder Wave and Glare have shortcomings - the former doesn't affect Ground-types, and the latter has imperfect accuracy - that will make it difficult to abuse paralysis to a greater extent than Tomohawk's other options.

    Allow Work Up. Having access to a solid stat-boosting move results in a tough judgment call as to whether to use Haze or not. If you use Haze, you eliminate your stat boosts along with the opponent's, so you both lose momentum. This poor synergy would force players to make difficult choices in moveset construction, which would help to differentiate Tomohawks belonging to different players and diversify the metagame. Also, Tomohawk needs to have something that can be Baton Passed, or otherwise there's little point in having Baton Pass.

    Allow Clear Smog. Clear Smog is a viable option to use instead of Haze. Clear Smog offers two distinct advantages over Haze - namely, that it does damage, and that it doesn't reset the user's stat boosts. Sure, Clear Smog doesn't do a lot of damage, but considering how frequently Pokemon manage to withstand blows with less than 8% of their HP left, I don't think it's incorrect to say that every little bit counts. However, Clear Smog only resets one target's stat boosts (irrelevant in single battles, but an important consideration in doubles and triples), and more importantly, it also does nothing to Steel-types. Furthermore, Clear Smog is classified as a Special-category move rather than an Other-category move, which means that Clear Smog doesn't get a priority boost from Prankster. This can allow a boosted opponent to outspeed Tomohawk and potentially KO it before it can get a Clear Smog off. There's also a risk that the opponent might use Mirror Coat and injure Tomohawk badly, though I don't think a Mirror Coat off of a Clear Smog would be enough to OHKO. All this adds up to a set of pros and cons that will lead to more important choices in moveset construction, and therefore a wider variety of movesets being used.

    Allow Rapid Spin. Getting rid of the entry hazards that your opponent spent six turns painstakingly setting up, all in one fell swoop, is nothing short of awesome in terms of how much momentum it allows you to regain. (I was tempted to quote a MasterCard commerical, but I figured that would be too cliched.) Seriously, you just made up to five of your opponent's previous actions a near-complete waste of his/her precious time (technically six, but I'm subtracting the one turn used to Rapid Spin from that total. Maybe two, if Tomohawk wasn't already on the field while the hazards were being set up and you had to switch it in.) If that's not regaining momentum, then what the hell is?!?
  16. Focus

    Focus I'm waiting you...

    Joined:
    May 27, 2010
    Messages:
    632
    So many moves... Where to begin?
    Baton Pass and U-turn are a must. Those moves are the very definition of "momentum." They are excellent scouting moves, assuming there will be nothing in particular to pass other than a sub.

    Aromatherapy / Heal Bell should be disallowed. They are moves that kill your momentum, in a sense, and Tomohawk really doesn't need to be used for this kind of team support. I kind of want to say the same thing with Wish, but it has such great potential with U-turn for regaining lost momentum that it should be allowed.

    Roost is a great move that should not be underestimated on the likes of a pokemon with such good typing. Priority Recovery certainly puts you in a great position against Excadrill, Terakkion, and friends. It seems slightly overpowered, but it is a tentative "allow."

    Counter is a nice thing to have, not that it would likely see much use, but you never know. Confuse Ray is a really cool move to have, but it just goes a little bit too far, IMO. It just does not sit all too well that a defensive set with that move could turn the momentum idea sour. Tremendous defenses with Confuse Ray seems rather counterproductive, in a way. Tomohawk just needs not to be a tank of that caliber. It could free up switches, but the luckfest that can ensue is a turn-off.

    Encore, Taunt, Torment? Yes please, but perhaps not all at once. Leech Seed? NOT A CHANCE! Awful flavor-wise, way too good with Roost and STAB Flying. Just no. Same with Ingrain and all sleep moves other than Yawn, which does a marvelous job forcing switches. Perish Song also forces switches, or at least brings your an opponent's rampage to a crawl. Healing Wish / Momento are both a big yes. They allow for a free switch-in that is immediately in an advantageous position.

    Entry hazards of any sort and Rapid Spin are bad. That is just not what Tomohawk needs to be doing. Magic Coat and Snatch, on the other hand, are just what this CAP ordered. Nothing kills opponents' momentum better that stealing their boosts or bouncing their shenanigans back in their faces.

    Swords Dance does not really belong here. Tomohawk does not attack physically, and as good with BP it may be, it is somewhat distracting to have it there. A little on the fence, but leaning towards "no." Lastly, a hesitant yes to Trick / Switcheroo because of the choiced mayhem that follows from it. Choice Specs is a questionable choice anyway (no pun intended), and tricking a scarf to something makes it that much more predictable later on. That still might be a problem in that counters might be more uneasy to freely switch in on Tomohawk, but good prediction is key any way you look at it.

    Those are my impressions, take them or leave them.
  17. Luigifan

    Luigifan

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2010
    Messages:
    170
    Confuse Ray

    For me, the luckfest is a turn-on. The fact that it doesn't always work means that it isn't quite broken. While your opponent whacking him/herself is great for regaining momentum (as you essentially have a free turn), it's entirely possible for that to not happen at all (in which case you just wasted a turn by using Confuse Ray.) On the other hand, a lot of people will switch out if their Pokemon gets confused, because wasting several turns - and Hit Points - watching one's Pokemon beat the crap out of itself is not exactly fun (or conducive to winning matches.) Again, attacking oneself in confusion isn't guaranteed to happen - I've been in scenarios where I toughed out confusion and managed to snap out of it without attacking myself once - but a lot of people will just hedge their bets. At the same time, the hax factor of confusion means that it's inherently unreliable, and so I wouldn't be able to blame someone for choosing a more reliable means of disruption such as Encore, Taunt, or Torment.
  18. min min

    min min

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2010
    Messages:
    939
    Allow Wish since it seems a lot less broken than Roost, but has anyone considered that Prankster Substitute and Wish is going to be very hard to beat? Just a thought.
  19. Zebstrika

    Zebstrika

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    836
    U-turn/Baton Pass: Allow
    The more reliable Volt Switch, and Baton Pass is not as risky because you can't get taunted before you try to pull it off (with Prankster).

    Haze: Allow
    Clear Smog: Allow

    Both moves will clear the opponent's momentum. However, a sweeping Tomohawk doesn't have room for Clear Smog, so it barely matters.

    Sleep moves: Disallow
    Well, duh. Except Yawn. That forces switches, making more momentum.

    Memento and Healing Wish: Allow
    By sacrificing Tomohawk, you can get another pokemon in more safely to regain momentum for everyone else. It's especially useful when Tomohawk is worthless, and Prankster can ensure it is executed.

    Ingrain: Disallow
    Tomohawk doesn't care about being phazed, since it's not a sweeper. However, it rids Tomohawk of a valuable ground immunity and valuable switching that doesn't let Tomohawk die without a choice.

    Confuse Ray, Featherdance, Yawn, Perish Song: Allow
    It's simple; they all force switches, giving Tomohawk free turns.

    Sleep Talk: ...
    Sleep Talk is too unreliable, and picking the wrong move could give away momentum. However, you can absorb the otherwise momentum stealing sleep.
  20. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,967
    Allow Baton Pass and U-Turn. Both moves have excellent possibilities for momentum, Baton Pass in particular in combination with Prankster. In order for Tomohawk to have the most capability for momentum, it should have access to all three of the most momentum-aiding moves to tailor its set to whatever situation it needs to be able to switch out of.

    Allow Encore and Haze. Both moves have spectacular possibilities for screwing up setup sweepers in combination with Prankster.

    Allow Hail and Sunny Day. Prankster Hail can be used to throw a wrench into any weather team, which is excellent for momentum. Sunny Day won't get rid of opposing sun, but if sun is useful for Tomohawk or its teammates, it can be a good alternative. They aren't listed as competitively viable, but with the presence of Prankster, they should be.

    Allow Morning Sun / Moonlight. Tomohawk needs better recovery than Rest, but reliable recovery would be overpowered in combination with Prankster, especially Roost. These two moves are somewhat reliable without being too reliable, and combine well with Sunny Day.

    Allow Block / Mean Look. As mentioned previously, without the possibility of being Baton Passed, they're unlikely to be overpowered, but could be situationally useful.

    Allow Sleep Talk. Potentially highly useful with Rest, and also with Prankster.

    Allow Tailwind. We've seen how useful Prankster Tailwind can be with Tornadus, and it could be just as effective on Tomohawk. It isn't listed as competitively viable, but with the presence of Prankster, it should be.

    Disallow all stat boosting moves. Obviously Bulk up and Work Up (and as a result Curse) are exceptions, but otherwise, Tomohawk should be focusing on gaining momentum, not staying in to set up. With Prankster, good stat-up moves could also wind up being used in a Baton Pass set, which I don't think is what we want Tomohawk to be doing here. Flame Charge should be included in this, since that's its only purpose to Tomohawk.

    Disallow all sleep moves. Yawn could be an exception, but otherwise, priority sleep is horribly overpowered and not something we should even be considering. Burn and paralysis moves should also remain disallowed; priority burn would be just as overpowered, and while priority paralysis is not overpowered, it would be a bit much in combination with other moves with which to abuse Prankster. Besides, we don't want Tomohawk to turn into a clone of existing Prankster Pokemon, and several can already use paralysis moves.

    Disallow all reliable recovery. As stated before, Morning Sun and Moonlight would be greatly preferable. In particular, Roost should be disallowed.

    Disallow all entry hazards. Not the sort of momentum we're looking for, and priority entry hazards are a bit too similar to what Deoxys-S can do.

    Disallow Copycat. Horribly overpowered on Prankster Pokemon. We don't want Tomohawk to be copying its own Whirlwinds for priority phasing, something that is known to be possible with the Copycat + Prankster combination. It isn't listed as competitively viable, but with the presence of Prankster, it should be.

    Disallow Rain Dance. No need to make Tomohawk into a bulkier Tornadus. Prankster Rain Dance to set up for its own Hurricane and its teammates is not something we want here.

    Disallow Taunt. Tomohawk can do plenty of things well already. No need for it to wreck stall on top of all that.

    Disallow Ingrain. Horrible for flavor and for momentum. All it would do is make Tomohawk into a substitute Smeargle for Baton Pass chains.

    Disallow Memento. Priority Memento is far too overpowered for something that can do so much else already.

    Disallow Destiny Bond. Overpowered with Prankster. It isn't listed as competitively viable, but with the presence of Prankster, it should be.

    Disallow Confuse Ray. Tomohawk should be annoying through strategy, not hax. There are better ways to force switches.
  21. Honko

    Honko
    is a Programmeris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,141
    Allow Baton Pass. In my mind, there is nothing that fits the momentum goal better (without being broken) than priority passing bulky Substitutes as reliably as Tomohawk would be able to. On the same note, disallow Agility, Rock Polish, and Swords Dance, as these moves overstep the goal by directly turning Tomohawk (or the partners it passes to) into an immediate threat. Bulk Up and Work Up are less of an issue since neither one really helps Tomohawk itself become an offensive threat, and they aren't particularly good boosts for passing.
  22. Zebstrika

    Zebstrika

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    836
    Say that to Whimsicott. And still, almost no one uses it.
  23. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,967
    That's exactly my point. Whimsicott can use it to great effect, and it can do so little else effectively.
  24. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,658
    Most of what I would say has been said multiple times already, but since recovery seems to be the only item of the debate, I would push for Roost and Recover to be Allowed. To make a long-term impact on the match, CAP1 has to have longevity, or Sandstorm, Stealth Rock and resisted hits will wear it down too quickly. Not giving it recovery (particularly Roost) reduces its range of switch-ins dramatically and hinders its capacity to switch in and provide momentum all match long.

    I'm still not sure about Wish though.
  25. Vaz

    Vaz

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    Messages:
    585
    Hi.

    I would like to say that I think Baton Pass really is something that would help out Tomohawk a lot. It will be handy being able to pass off Substitutes, and what better thing to do whilst being behind a substitute is being able to Roost. Together, that will give the team much needed momentum and stay around in the battle longer.

    Thanks, bye.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)