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CAP 12 CAP1 - Part 11a - (Non-Attacking Moves Discussion)

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by reachzero, Apr 2, 2011.

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  1. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Being faster and KOing with Aura Sphere is, though. You still didn't address the part where Tomo fails to gain momentum on any strong special sweeper that can hit it right away for more than half (most of them), or where he loses it the second said special sweeper switches in. Call me crazy, but I don't think Agility Tomo gives a shit about either scenario.
  2. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    Tomo can't set up in the face of an enemy that's already set up, and it can't expect to OHKO it once it does so.

    What does physical vs. special have to do with it? We're talking about the Prankster set, which doesn't have Intimidate, so its defenses are almost equal. And even if it can't stay in afterwards, if it's used Haze and possibly other moves to screw up the opponent, it's done its job.
  3. Luigifan

    Luigifan

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    Allow Trick. You don't need to saddle your opponent with a Choice item to wreck their momentum - there are other things you can use. Stuff like Lagging Tail, Iron Ball, Ring Target... hell, you could even give them a Potion for the lulz (and for taking a useful item away from them.) Then there's the items with downsides... for instance, I don't think Blissey would enjoy being given a Life Orb, seeing as she'd lose a crucial 10% of her life every time she fired off an Ice Beam. There's also, well, the Choice items, which limit the user's options and force the opponent to waste time switching in and out just to not use the same attack over and over. Sweepers have no use for Leftovers, seeing as they're frail enough to be OHKO'd easily anyways.

    Allow Sand-Attack. This move is underappreciated, and it would make for a great way to screw up your opponent's momentum. There's a reason that moves like Focus Blast, Stone Edge, Dynamic Punch, etc. aren't very popular, and that reason is that enough power to shatter a Regirock into a billion pieces with one blow is completely and utterly useless if you can't hit the broad side of a barn. Or, to put that in less hyperbolic terms, power becomes completely irrelevant when coupled with unreliability, and once your opponent's missing more often than not, their only choice is to switch out. To ensure that we won't be spending multiple turns wrecking the foe's accuracy, how 'bout we make a move for Tomohawk that lowers the foe's accuracy by two stages? That will let Tomohawk stop a sweep cold with one move - momentum achieved! I can see it now... all of a sudden, Keen Eye, Clear Body, and CompoundEyes are viable abilities... oh, yeah, and No Guard becomes even better. Plus, Hone Claws, Coil, Acupressure, and Gravity would probably be used more often, too.

    Consider allowing Dragon Dance, Flame Charge, and/or Agility. SJCrew makes a good point about the need for Tomohawk to have some sweeping potential - to control the momentum of the match, simply reversing your opponent's momentum is insufficient. At some point, you're going to have to take the offensive yourself (even if that offensive is hurling entry hazards and Toxic all over the place so you can then just wait for your opponent to drop dead.) Allowing Tomohawk to boost its Speed and then either sweep itself or pass its boosts to a more suitable sweeper will go a long way towards shifting the tides of battle in its owner's favor.

    Also, I should mention that for anything to be illegal with Prankster, Prankster has to be a Dream World ability, and Tomohawk would have to get those moves from somewhere that it couldn't if it was from the Dream World... namely, the 4th generation tutors and TMs. Seeing as Tomohawk is a 5th-generation Pokemon, that's completely irrelevant, and I can't see how the game mechanics would allow you to make any of Tomohawk's moves illegal with Prankster.
  4. Gerard

    Gerard

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    Allow Baton Pass
    This is because of the kind of good set-up moves it has it helps him to be more versatile, with Prankster this helps him get the hell away of Shadow Taggers and it help him being more than one-dimmensional, it can be used in a bottom pass team, but why?, whit no "powerful" set-up moves is outclassed, using bottom pass also helps scouting he swiches and you swich accordingly, and as people already say, passing a sub is awesome

    Allow Tailwind
    Awesome to gain momentum and the fact that it helps it's team before being forced out it's great for creating a possitive enviroment

    Allow Sunny Day
    Getting rid of opposing weather is something invaluable in this Gen, if this can help him retaining the momentum against rain and sandstorm, if this is approved Allowing Morning Sun is also something great so he can have a great recovery way (this would not be overpowered since to have a 66% recovery it need two move sloths, this also doesn't helps at all hurricanes accuracy

    Allow Roost and Recover
    Reliable recovery and a way to get rid of ice, rock, electric weeknesses (at least temporarily) and makes a little harder to learn how to use so he is not an easy pick, recovery is a good option for the ones that like a non-secondary effect recovery and retains fighting and ground ressistance/immunity

    Allow Encore and Haze and Taunt
    As said before, it destroy set-ups and could save your ass against a +2/+2/+2 shell smash bottom passed salamance, it also helps getting rid of stall without killing it completely since it can be Magic Bounced

    Allow Disable/Torment
    This makes your opponent moves and makes them more predictable, also not letting them retain the momentum and keeping them fom 2HKOing and letting them from using their most powerful moves so limiting their options and keeping them from regaining the control

    Allow Yawn
    It helps to get rid of sweepers and stuff that could treathen the team if they stay for too long while still taking a turn to work, making it not very effective to spam it, on the same disallow every other sleep moves since with priority, even sing could become overpowered (still this could be maintained while being illegal with prankster)

    Allow Switcheroo
    it makes swich ins take a nasty surprise and knowing your foes items is an ammazing way to get information about it's team, (CB scizor vs Leaftovers one, ballon Dory vs Life Orbed, etc...), also, note how this is not eally overpowered since the sheep can do the same thing, it's good, but if you're planning to do so to an especific counter you have to stay and recieve a hit, and if you're planning into changing a Choice item, you have to do so on the first run, this also makes you unable to reliably get an item of get the item you want

    Allow Magic Coat
    Without Magic Bounce, this is the second best choice, and would make the opposing pokes avoid using stuff like Spikes without taking the risk of bein' reflected, not letting momentum slip away

    Allow Memento and Healing Wish
    By a final sacrifice, this creates a finaljump for the team, and swiches the odds for a good comeback or retaining the momentum and helping your pokes to enter safely and to be able to still win, without getting too powerful since you have to loose your little mommentum bird

    Allow Featherdance/Fake Tears/Charm
    this makes your swich in so more safely and grants swiches, this also kills last standing pokes and ingrained ones, making it easily to keep the match going in your terms and maintaining the control

    Disallow Ingrain
    not able to swich = complete opposite of momentum

    Disallow entry hazards
    yeah, good for getting momentum, but it would make this Cap more stallish and transorm it into a "faster" and bulkier version or Deo-S, also this guy is making a lot of swiches so this could make him way to good in stall
  5. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP THE FORDS
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    The thing that gets me about a lot of these posts are that they rely way too much on generalizations. Anyone can claim, "x helps momentum," or "y doesn't help momentum," but what do x and y really do in the context of Tomohawk, its intended counters, and the general metagame? People are seriously losing sight of what's going on with this CAP, talking vaguely about stuff like "offensive momentum" or useless, over-hyped moves and ignoring what the consequences will be for our concerns about having defined counters.

    I still don't get why people want FeatherDance to be allowed. Sure, it doesn't have the lingering setup potential of Iron Defense, but it still greatly increases Tomohawk's physical bulk as a Prankster Pokémon over that of Intimidate Tomohawk. Again, a 100% raw damage output DOES NOT beat Prankster Tomohawk with FeatherDance.

    I also don't get this pull to have Agility. Thundurus already takes 152 - 180 damage from 120 SpA Hidden Power Ice, which means that, assuming that Stealth Rock is up, either Thundurus can't switch in a second time, or (with prior damage or if this IS his second switch-in) Tomohawk runs right through him. So I guess Agility could be allowed if we strike Thundurus from our "intended counter" list...

    EDIT: After a recent conversation, I've realized that I myself may have also overhyped a move on Tomohawk, namely Taunt. Thundurus doesn't often use Taunt, and Whimsicott pretty much sucks (or, at least, doesn't get its utility from Taunt). Allow Taunt.
  6. jas61292

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    Thank You. I was trying to come up with a good way to say this myself, but you beat me to it.

    Really, what it comes down to is that all moves and all good Pokemon are designed to either stop the opponents momentum, get your own, or keep the momentum you have. All Pokemon are momentum Pokemon, and all moves (or at least all used moves) are momentum moves. If they weren't, you wouldn't be using them. That's one reason I didn't particularly like this concept to begin with. But even so, that means there are many ways we could have gone with Tomohawk. We happened to choose one way, and just because a move is good for another way of momentum changing does not mean he should get it. If we wanted to make a Pokemon that can use all forms of momentum, it would have the stats of Arceus and the movepool of Mew.

    So basically, stick to the concept we decided on, and don't claim it needs a move just because it is "good for momentum."
  7. Flarephoenix332

    Flarephoenix332

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    Disable (and by proxy, Torment)

    Prankster Disable might be a little broken. As stated in #cap (and bringing the discussion here) Prankster Disable/Torment could dismantle a choiceband pokemon, and will make sure an attack can't 2HKO you unless it can purely OHKO. It would work if illegal with Prankster, but otherwise it might be a bit too much.
  8. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    I updated the lists in the OP based on the discussion. I am interested in hearing more discussion on Disable, I'm a little concerned about how strong Disable is (look at Gengar!).
  9. Luigifan

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    Again, this isn't a Pokemon being carried over from Gen IV. How the heck can anything be made illegal with Prankster?
  10. Flarephoenix332

    Flarephoenix332

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    Prankster becomes DW ability, DW release is male only. It's happened before.
  11. Gerard

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    Disable
    I want this move specially because, to actualy use it your opponent should allready used an attacking move that did SE or at least Neutral Damae then why would you disable for example earthquake unless your foe has used it againt you, so you just swiched or your opponent is plain retarded, you should obviously diable a move that can 2HKO you, but since the point that you already lost life (probably a lot if you think the move you're trying to diable is imprtant enough to disable it insted o subbing) then you are aleady in problems

    The other case is Sub-Disable, this might actually be harder to deal with, but the factis Gengar has more immunities (important ones) that's why if you disable a fighting type only dark move it became useless, because he only has another fighting move that won't do shit to you, this Cap doesn't has that many immunities with just one, this makes it easier to couter earthquedge better (and even then it wouldn't be SE) so the things that actually treaten this Cap are still going to have the moves to HIT it, altough not SE, still at least neutral, stuff like Thundurus is still able to get there and hit it, also maybe you forget that to rn a great disable set this has to have Sub/Protect, Recovery and obviously Disable, that makes him a un-boosted mono attacker, something that could be fairly easy to block
  12. JeffreyLebowski

    JeffreyLebowski

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    I think that roost should be allowed. I understand priority healing is a dangerous thing, but i think that it allow Tomohawk to have much longevity, which i think is important for this pokemon, who has a rather unfortunate cross section of weaknesses. Encore and Taunt are also two important moves for disrupting momentum.

    Tl: dr, allow encore, taunt, and roost
  13. Yllnath

    Yllnath

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    Commenting on the Pending list in the first post:
    There are only 4 moves that I want to discuss in the Pending list, all others I pretty much don't care about whether they end up allowed or disallowed.

    Disable
    - I think this move may have some niche uses, but is not as useful as it is on Gengar. Once behind a sub, not many pokemon run 2 moves that can effectively deal with Gengar, so once he disabled that one move, he's probably homefree to do as he pleases. On Tomohawk, even if you disable Thundurus's Thunder, Zapdos's Thunderbolt or Latios's Psycho Shock, they all have moves to do plenty of hurt on Tomohawk after it, regardless, while Tomohawk still can't do anything back. Thundurus may pack another Electric move in the form of Volt Change and this will hurt, even if it isn't Thunder. Zapdos can do Drill Peck, and Latios is a powerhouse regardless, so it can just continue to Draco Meteor Tomohawk into oblivion.
    And that was just these 3 counters. Don't forget that BoltBeam is still a favourite move combo for a lot of pokemon and due to Tomohawks Flying type, disabling one means its likely you'll still get hit by the other. Disable surely harasses opponents, perhaps even forces switches (Thundurus Volt Switching out, because his main weapon is gone) but more likely than not, Disable will probably not give Tomohawk a safe ride for the remainder of that matchup. No reason to disallow, imo, so Allowed

    Sleep Talk
    - I'm still of the opinion that if something isn't broken, don't disallow it. Disallowing should only be the hard list of moves that are deemed really detrimental to the concept or overpowering. I for one am all for keeping the Disallowed list only to the bare necessities, and let the movepool submitters decide what to slap on or not. They have limits of their own to worry about when making the movepool, and if the movepool they submitted is crap, or lacks reasoning, they aren't getting votes anyway.
    With that said, I see absolutely no reason to Disallow Sleep Talk other than possible Prankster Rest/ST/Whirlwind/Roar sets. (Or Dragon Tail/Overhead Throw). This may be fixed by putting ST in a specific egg move group.
    The reason why I want it allowed specifically, is that it works as a good sleep absorber with it. With Sleep Talk, it will even have one less problem to switch into Breloom/Gen 5 Mushroom pokemon/Smeargle with Spore. All of them can be hit SE either of Tomohawks STABs. Rest Sleep Talk also gives immunity against all other statuses that may cripple Tomohawk, most specifically Toxic, which puts a timer on Tomo's head. The being asleep part and the randomness of ST can be a bit offputting, but the longevity R/ST gives is great. I'd like to see this one allowed, but perhaps with the egg move restriction side note.

    Switcheroo
    - Prankster Switcheroo looks to be absolutely hilarious, but may be Disallowed anyway, under the assumption that it will make Tomohawk able to deal with it's primary counters, by switching a lagging tail to them.
    Still, I can see plenty of uses that come from an move like this, without being overpowered. As for gaining momentum with this move, I feel that's pretty obvious. If giving a bad item to your opponent's pokemon doesn't make him switch out, at the very least, it will put him likely in a situation where his pokemon is now less useful/useless.
    I'm totally for Allowed on this one.

    Wish
    - This fits Tomohawk perfectly, imo. We already have moves like Volt Switch/U-turn, Sub+Baton Pass, etc. It seems we'll be doing lots of pivoting. A pivot with a high HP stat (as Wish now looks at the HP stat from the one who uses it), and access to Wish and the ability to fire those Wishes off at +1 priority, I feel this gives some great tactical teamplay, prolonging both Tomo's life and that of his teammates, which in turn helps maintain momentum, as almost dead pokemon on your team are useless, but the ability to heal them up again can be very valuable.
    Definitely Allowed, imo


    Edit: @Jeffrey, those moves have already been Allowed, look at the first post, that Reach updated.
  14. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    Could someone explain to me why Featherdance was moved to disallowed?

    Most of THawk's counters are fast special attackers who care not a whit about Featherdance. Intimidate + Featherfance also puts an immediate damper on slower phyiscal threats like Conkeldurr. Combined with Roost it does blunt Skarmory some, but Skarmory can still set up hazards, and Taunt is generally more effective at stopping Skarmory's Momentum. You could have both moves on a set, but you'd need to Featherdance first, giving an opportunity for an opponent to switch in a counter. Move Featherdance from Disallowed to Allowed.

    Disable is cool, but not gamebreaking. It does combine well with Substitute, Taunt, and other moves, but then THawk starts running into 4mss. Disable for Allowed.

    Psycho Shift is a very cool move, and very helpful if THawk gets statused. It lets it get rid of paralysis quickly or shift off a Toxic status. Psycho Shift for Allowed.
  15. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    We're not talking about Prankster, we're talking about how Tomohawk can use these non-attack moves overall. My point in favor of Agility was that it can screw up momentum against everything under the right circumstances and can turn a decided disadvantage into a winning situation. This is the kind of thing I'm thinking about when we speak of momentum control.

    Tomohawk should be able to handle almost anything if you give it the right set because that's what the concept calls for. We have offensive, defensive, but not a Pokemon designed to do it all. If it's not threatening both offensively as well as defensively, it will flounder to keep momentum against some of the things its non-attack movepool won't handle. We don't have paralysis, Spore is almost unanimously panned, and Hypnosis will hardly be of any use even if it's allowed. How do you suggest we reverse momentum against anything with a Choice Specs?

    I would suggest we not give it any initiative in the first place. If Tomohawk can boost up and KO it along with the rest of the weakened team, then it's done its job just as well as if it stopped Garchomp from going on an SD rampage. Momentum reversal occurs on both the small scale, where you prevent setups and sweeps, but also on the large scale, where you're basically losing the match but have a chance to come back. Not everyone will be thinking about going for a sweep, since Tomohawk has plenty more tricks up it sleeve than that, but for a momentum Pokemon that's designed to cover all of the bases, it really should be an option.
  16. Vaz

    Vaz

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    Hi.

    @LuigiFan and anyone else wanting custom moves, they are not permitted in this CaP.

    I have been thinking about Agility in conjuction with Baton Pass and I feel that the two will only be too powerful if it is allowed to have great coverage moves with it.

    Also, I'd like to ask this here in case it is too late to ask somewhere else, is Prankster going to be a regular ability or will it have the possibility of being a Dream World ability? This would make it much more justified to have certain moves.

    Thanks, bye.
  17. Xiom

    Xiom

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    Spikes, Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes all for disalow. Setting up Hazards even faster the Deoxys-S while having better bulk and higher Special Attack. Think that is a bit too much. Only missing out on outspeeding everything with regular attacks which doesn't make up for it really. I could see Stealth Rock possibly be okey but think either of the spikes will be too much. Either way i want it all for disalowed as i don't think Hazards is what it should be focusing on seting up.

    Switcheroo/Trick Allowed. Open up alot of possibilities on items you can switch over on your oponent. It's use is limited as it only have 1 item, and helps it to balance out the effect of it from being overpowered.

    Leech Seed Disalow, subseeding becomes a pain especially with prankster. The fact it don't make sense flavorwise don't help it much either.
  18. Thorhammer

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    And if it's using those moves, it's using Prankster.

    Agility can't screw up momentum against something against which Tomo can't set up. Besides, if you just want the Speed boost, there's Tailwind for that.

    If Tomo is going to be fighting something with Choice Specs, then if it'll ever manage to do so, it can already do so with its own abilities. Its SpA is already good, and Agility isn't going to make it any better. If Tomo switches into something faster and boosts its Speed, then starts attacking it the next turn, it'll get exactly the same number of opportunities to attack and with exactly the same power as if it hadn't boosted its Speed at all. You seem to be suggesting that Speed boosting moves should be used in a role for which they don't have the slightest capability to grant any benefit.
  19. Yllnath

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    I have no clue what you are saying Thor, have you even re-read your own post? Agility and Choice Specs? What? You know you would be locked into Agility, then, right?
    And Agility is far more useful as you make it sound.
    What SJ is saying, is that momentum can also be achieved by late-game cleaning, when everything has been weakened. If you are down X pokes, and everything is against you, the possibilty of doubling your speed and then proceeding to clean up a lot (or everything) evens the field a lot. But should I really explain what a late-game cleaner does? SJ isn't proposing anything unordinary, really. And with Tomohawk's bulk, decent unboosted offenses, access to Agility alone would be enough to help even the score when you are behind in number count (assuming the opponent has been weakened to revenge killing range). That in itself seems like another form of momentum to me as well.

    I'm just concerned that, since we decided a on a no-sweeping/no-offensive kind of momentum, Agility may actually do too much for Tomohawk. It's bulk is pretty great, especially with Intimidate and when switching into a physical foe. You'll have plenty of set-up chances, and I feel it may lean Tomo too much toward sweeping capabilities.

    Still, even though I'm on the fence about Agility, I'd say I'm for Allowed.
  20. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    ...What? I'm talking about if the opponent has Choice Specs equipped, because that's the scenario SJCrew suggested for some arbitrary reason.

    As for the rest, I see the issue here. It seems that at some point SJCrew and I started to talk about completely different matters. I don't have as much to say about the rest of that, with that in mind, except that Tailwind could grant Tomohawk much of the same capabilities except better-fitting with the concept, and for that reason, I maintain that Tailwind should be used rather than Agility.
  21. jas61292

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    It seems to me that he is saying the opponent has Specs, not Tomo. But seriously, did anyone read my last post. Everything is momentum. Don't just claim it needs Agility because it is good for momentum. Lets hear how they are good for it as far as its purposed job and counters.
  22. srk1214

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    As I said earlier and Yllnath pointed out above, Sleep Talk has the potential to be severely broken with phazing moves.

    If Sleep Talk is allowed, then all phazing moves MUST be illegal with it (Since Rest is required). At the moment on Allowed, there are 4 phazing moves. Is it possible, without making a really screwed up looking movepool, to keep Sleep Talk illegal with all 4?
  23. Luigifan

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    Ah. I see. Gotcha.

    All right, just figured I'd ask. I'm kinda on the fence about the whole accuracy dropping thing, anyways.
  24. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP THE FORDS
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    I've thought about this for a long while, and while I supported the inclusion of Disable/Torment before, I think that I agree with Flarephoenix here. Let's look at Choice Band Terrakion (one of the most powerful Choice users and a Pokémon that was mentioned as being a possible intended check through offense and not through setup) vs something like 136 HP / 120 SpA / 252 Spe Timid (enough SpA to OHKO Excadrill):

    Stone Edge: 69.4% - 81.8%

    ...Right. This is WITHOUT using Substitute or Intimidate. Add Substitute to the mix and you also give problems to another possible intended check, Choice Specs Tornadus. Do we really need to mess up Choiced users this badly? I don't think so. I find the Terrakion calc especially convincing. Disallow Disable and Torment.
  25. Captain

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    Acid Spray, Entry Hazards

    Disallow:
    CopyCat: The move is pretty lol and bad in most cases but CaP1 could hypothetically come in, cause a switch while roaring and then copycat itself for priority roar, assuming the setup isn't too much it's definitely broken. I got confirmation from Coyotte508 that in a single battle that Copycat can copy the user.

    Allow:
    Acid Spray because Fake Tears hits steel types and Acid Spray's damage is pitiful anyway. Though we have Fighting STAB the damage from Acid Srpay still isn't enough to be a concern.
    Some Entry Hazards: Spikes might be too rediculous but at least Toxic Spikes can be dealt with by steel types and Flying types and on top of that it's possible to make it illegal with Prankster. Entry hazards don't help Tomohawk's momentum but they do help other pokemon get and keep momentum. Obviously Stealth Rock isn't broken.
    Wish: Obviously Wish is no stronger than Roost for recovering and would mainly be used for defensive momentum. Vaporeon and Blissey have more HP anyway. On top of that Wish recovering requires protect; having half your moveset being used by your recovery stuff is going to be a big deal.
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