CAP 12 CAP1 - Part 11a - (Non-Attacking Moves Discussion)

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by reachzero, Apr 2, 2011.

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  1. HeavyOctillery

    HeavyOctillery

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    Disallow: FeatherDance. At first I was for allowing it, but Prankster FeatherDance does outclass Intimidate, and we're looking to have BOTH abilities be viable for the concept.

    Disallow: All entry hazard moves. Since it's already using other moves to force switches, and due to its own Sp. Attack, giving it access to Prankster Hazards might make it too much of a one-mon wrecking crew.

    Allow: Wish. Prankster-Passing a Wish = more momentum. Only thing is, 4MSS might get in the way of Wish Passing being effective, since it's better done when it goes last (since a Wish recipient might get KO'ed before it can get it). But that would encourage usage of Intimidate over it, thus still making it a good idea.

    Disallow: Copycat. It sounds a little too insane to have on the Prankster variant.

    Disallow: Disable/Torment. See directly above. Taunt & Encore do more than enough.

    Allow: Tailwind. Yeah, it's a boosting move, but it also boost your other mons' Speed, it doesn't last, and, IIRC, it doesn't stack, which with Tomo's natural slowness, makes it less broken than Agility & the like. So yeah, not as bad as other Speed Boosters, and gives momentum to your teammates.

    Allow: A recovery move. I don't care which. Like what was mentioned before, a clever player can predict an incoming Roost & smack it with a STAB EQ or Aura Sphere or whatever, so I'm not entirely sure how much of a problem it would be. Then again, I hear Eviolite Murkrow's been tearing up the joint as of late......
  2. AltJunkie

    AltJunkie

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    Disallow Featherdance
    As stated above, Prankster Featherdance is just outclassing intimidate, which would make the ability near useless.

    Allow Switcheroo/Trick
    A priority trick could ruin certain Pokemon, which would definitely gain momentum, but is, for the most part, only useful once. This would stop a trick strategy from being too broken.

    Disallow Flame Charge
    The move serves no purpose other than setting up for a sweep, which isn't what this Pokemon was designed to do.
  3. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    I've been really busy, so I haven't really chimed in on this thread yet, but I do have an opinion so get ready to hear me roar!

    Allow Lovely Kiss / Sleep Powder
    I've been mulling this over, and I'm sold. Sleep is nothing like paralysis. We have sleep clause to contend with, the new sleep mechanics which (when combined with Prankster) give faster opponents multiple turns to wake up before we can even hit them once, and 75% accuracy isn't winning it any favors either. I don't want Spore or Dark Void, because that accuracy is a bit too high for my taste, but 75% is a good gamble, and I want CAP1 to have solid status conditions so that it can really steal momentum at any given stage. Many a game has been won by a well-played sleep move, and I think having one better than trashy Hypnosis in CAP1's repertoire will be important.

    Disallow Disable
    I was thinking, and while I'd probably be ok with it being allowed, this lets CAP1 muscle through checks such as Thundurus, Zapdos, Reuniclus, and Sigilyph (all of which pack only one move that can really threaten CAP1 massively) with relative ease. I'm not really keen on this, though, and so I think it should be disallowed.

    Allow Stealth Rock, Disallow Spikes/Toxic Spikes
    This may come as a surprise to some of you. Let me put this in perspective. Stealth Rock is not a huge deal. It's a good move, CAP1 has 4MSS anyway, and it might be a nice toy for early game momentum grabbing with Prankster. I think SR should be allowed. That said, WE MUST NOT GIVE CAP1 SPIKES OR TOXIC SPIKES! They are unspeakably broken when combined with priority from Prankster, and God help us if it gets them and recovery and Taunt. Trust me when I say that if it gets either of the spike hazards, it will become the standard set, it will be beyond amazing, and it won't be used like we want to with momentum grabbing mid-game. Just, please, yeah, don't do it or I will hurt you and force a CAP intervention.

    Disallow Leech Seed
    I'm trying really hard to not involve flavor in this, but either way, this is a little too stally and doesn't complement CAP1's other options very well. It doesn't really grab momentum per se, it just annoys opponents until CAP1 is forced out. So yeah, while I don't think it's particularly overpowering, it's unnecessary and a severe distraction. We shouldn't just give CAP1 every trick in the book.

    Allow Wish, Recover, etc.
    If we're allowing Roost, we should definitely allow these. Wish isn't super broken, and CAP1 can't afford to pack Wish + Protect in two moveslots for guaranteed healing anyway. Furthermore, the other recovery moves only differ in that they don't remove CAP1's Flying-type. Most things CAP1 will be healing against can't really capitalize on the lost Flying-type (It's not like CAP1 is Ground-weak without it). I think Recover is modestly better against the many Fighting-types of OU since it keeps your resistance to their attacking combination, but quite frankly, that's a good thing and helps CAP1 do its job. Full Recover does not in any way allow CAP1 to muscle through its desired checks and counters, and should be allowed.

    Disallow Switcheroo, Trick
    I don't like these moves. They distract CAP1 away from running bulky or utility sets and lure it into running Choice-locked sets that switch away their Choice item. CAP1 literally has no utility to be gained from picking up these moves, while they will distract from the concept if included in the movepool. I don't want to see Choice Specs Switcheroo CAP1.

    Allow Ingrain
    This is very cool with Baton Pass. Priority IngrainPass ahoy! That said, it has major downfalls for CAP1, namely the loss of the Flying-type Ground-immunity and the inability to switch right out of the opponent. This matters if something faster with Prankster comes in and Taunts you. Thundurus, Whimsicott, and Tornadus can all do this and put you in your place and checkmate CAP1. I think it's a fair trade and that Ingrain should be allowed.

    Allow Rapid Spin
    This is an intriguing idea, and perhaps one of the best momentum-grabbing moves in the game. CAP1 spins away all hazards and becomes the embodiment of momentum gaining for his team. CAP1 doesn't really pair up very well against the common spinblockers, although it appreciates priority Taunt and priority recovery. That said, it can't really muscle through Cursed Body Jellicent and will get burned eventually by Scald. Gengar is also faster and can do the SubDisable jig to drop Air Slash down and take advantage of CAP1 after. Dusclops is kind of screwed by priority Taunt if you run enough HP EVs to have 101 HP Substitutes, but you can't honestly do a whole heck of a lot to it back without Toxic. I think it would be an interesting option that we should allow movepool submitters to use.

    Allow everything else
    Acid Spray, Aromatherapy/Heal Bell, Block/Mean Look (You can't even Baton Pass these anymore...), Counter, Confuse Ray, Flame Charge (cool for Baton Pass! Not as bad as Agility!), Gravity, Hypnosis, Mirror Coat, Moonlight/Morning Sun/Synthesis, Pain Split, Psycho Shift, Rain Dance, Refresh, Sleep Talk, Swords Dance (bluh, this is stupid, but there's no reason to disallow it). All of these moves are cool, and are totally not broken or distracting of the concept in any way. They should be allowed. That said, I hope that them being allowed doesn't mean people put ALL of them on one movepool, since that would be insanity and wouldn't be cool. I think movepools should have some options to play with, though, and the freedom to use any of these moves.
  4. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight prominent CAP users
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    We were talking in #cap, and a new challenger approaches:

    Allow Me First. Me First provides a few niche roles in shifting momentum, especially with Prankster.

    Here are a few of the moves Prankster Me First helps with:

    Returning Draco Meteors and Outrages on Dragons.

    Returning Shadow Balls from Ghosts.

    It could also catch Scrafty with Hi Jump Kick or Drain Punch, although since Me First copies an opponents current action it's a bit more difficult than that. It can however punish Banded Terrakions and other Choice Pokemon locked into moves that hit themselves effectively.

    In other words, it's quite versatile in several common scenarios. It's obvious weakness is that it has to switch into the last attack or be used after a revenge kill.

    Now, there are some concerns about it regarding counters. Specifically, Tornadus's Hurricane can't be switched into, but if it nets a KO on a previous Pokemon and THawk switches in, Me First can strike it incredibly hard with what amounts to a 180 BP STAB Hurricane. Tornadus is fairly frail and doesn't resist it, and the only way to can avoid it is if it uses its own Prankster boosted move (like Toxic or Taunt, the latter of which quashes Me First). It's high-risk, high reward in other words.

    Thundurus doesn't care much for a returned boosted Thunder, but it's not quite as destructive as a boosted Hurricane on Tornadus. In general the move works best on primary STABs that opposing Pokemon isn't resistant to (mostly physical attackers, with a few special attacking exceptions). One other concern is that it does make THawk fairly good at cleaning, just on the basis only Toxic or Burn could finish it off without it getting some kind of attack in on the opponent.
  5. srk1214

    srk1214 Mega Chessatron
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    There are other things that can be tricked/switcherooed. Tricking a Lagging Tail makes a ton of sense and gives great team support. It would make almost any sweeper useless. That being said, you can only trick a Lagging Tail onto one pokemon, and you run the risk of receiving something bad if they predict the trick, like a flame orb (however, yes you could then trick the flame orb onto something else). Or tricking a Rotom-A (well not Rotom-S I guess) an Iron Ball so you can kill with EQ. Trick and Switcheroo just make sense to me in many ways other than simply the typical choice items.

    IngrainPass with Priority will make Baton Pass way too viable in my opinion. Especially if any speed boosing moves, even Tailwind, are included.

    Example: Tomohawk comes in on a Conkeldurr. Uses Ingrain on the switch to a counter, lets say.... Tornadus. Baton Pass the Ingrain to something that doesn't mind Tornadus like a Zapdos. Tornadus is threatened out by the TBolt, so he switches to his Gastrodon/Quagsire/Swampert as you Agility. Baton Pass to your Vaporeon as he uses an Ice or Water move. Acid Armor then Baton Pass into a 252 HP 252 Speed Timid Reuniclus.

    This Reuniclus would be at 424 HP, 308 Defense, and 348 Speed. Calm Mind and Recover your way up to +6 and sweep with Psychic and HP Fighting.
  6. Nails

    Nails I wanna be a red panda when I grow up
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    I would like to submit a request to all movepool designers.

    Please include the moves hyper voice, haze, and a recovery move that isn't roost. This is for the sake of the prevo, which is a normal/fighting type, likely with the ability scrappy (normal fighting with scrappy has unresisted coverage). None of these moves are competitive (the recovery move is, but it was pretty much guaranteed to already get it, hyper voice should never make it onto a moveset for this, and haze is possibly usable on the cap but liley wouldn't see too much use because of 4mss), however, it'll allow us to effectively playtest the prevo in little cup, as we can't give the prevo moves that tomo doesn't have.

    Thanks.

    edit: i didn't really follow the format... if this needs to be deleted go ahead
  7. tomtom5858

    tomtom5858

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    Acid Spray should be Allowed. It can help Tomahawk beat Blissey, who would otherwise stop the momentum.
    Aromatherapy/Heal Bell should be Disallowed. Despite helping preserve momentum, they would give Tomahawk an almost broken status.
    Block/Mean Look should be Disallowed. They don't really help with momentum in any way. Also, pretty much anything you trap would be a counter for Tomahawk.
    Counter should be Disallowed. Tomahawks speed is far too valuable to be negated by the negative Priority of Counter.
    Confuse Ray Should be Allowed. Confuse Ray is hardly the best attack, and Tomahawk would make better use of it than that which already has it.
    Disable should beAllowed. Disable can be extremely valuable in the changing of momentum by Disabling a Choice-locked Pokémon, forcing them to switch out, or Struggle.
    Flame Charge should be Allowed. While not being at the bottom of the barrel, Tomahawk's speed is hardly ideal, and attacking while boosting it is invaluable to a sweeping variant.
    Gravity should be Disallowed. Tomahawk is part Flying-type, and Gravity defeats the purpose of having that typing.
    Hypnosis should be Allowed. Priority Sleep can majorly mess up an opponents strategy, and creates huge amounts of momentum.
    Ingrain should be Disallowed. Ingrain has no point on Tomahawk, and the inability to switch creates momentum for the opponents team, not yours.
    Leech Seed should be Disallowed. Priority SubSeeding is something Whimsicott does, and it does it better than Tomahawk.
    Mirror Coat should be Allowed. Reflecting Status and entry hazards gives your team momentum, and removes the momentum from your opponent.
    Psycho Shift should be Allowed. Shifting a Status creates momentum.
    Rain Dance should be Allowed. The removal of an opponent's weather destroys momentum, especially in the case of Pokémon like Excadrill.
    Rapid Spin should be Disallowed. While removing entry hazards plays a vital part in momentum gaining, allowing you to switch circles around your opponent, Tomahawk can't do everything.
    Refresh should be Allowed. as with Psycho Shift, the removal of status is vital in anything's momentum.
    Sleep Talk should be Disallowed. Sleep Talk is too unreliable to use on a momentum-mon, and therefore is completely useless to use on Tomahawk.
    Spikes should be Disallowed. Tomahawk can't do everything.
    Stealth Rock should be Disallowed. See Spikes.
    Switcheroo/Trick should be Allowed. Tricking a Choice item on to a wall like Blissey creates huge momentum.
    Swords Dance should be Disallowed. Tomahawk would be too broken with a stat upping move like Swords Dance.
    Toxic Spikes should be Disallowed. See Spikes and Stealth Rock
    Wish should be Allowed. What with Tomahawk's relatively high HP, Wish can create valuable momentum for a team in restoring a sweeper's HP.
  8. Thorhammer

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    The most Tomo could do to abuse that would be a set with Rest / Sleep Talk / Whirlwind / Dragon Tail. Factoring in Dragon Tail's accuracy, that's a 63% chance of priority phazing two out of every three turns, and absolutely zero capability to do anything else other than heal itself and non-priority phaze on other turns. That doesn't sound overly frightening.

    Worth noting that I mentioned Dragon Tail over Circle Throw because of the ability to hit Ghosts outweighing the loss of STAB on a move with pathetic power. If Dragon Tail isn't used, Ghosts would only have a 33% chance of being affected. Alternatively, it could have a set consisting of Rest / Sleep Talk / Whirlwind / Roar for a 66% chance of phazing anything without Soundproof, but that can be solved by not giving it Roar either, just Whirlwind. Or just Roar.
  9. Zebstrika

    Zebstrika

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    We want defensive momentum, not another sweeper. While sweeping the opponent certainly gives you momentum, building the CAP to do it consistently is very broken.
  10. Gothic Togekiss

    Gothic Togekiss
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    The concept made no mention of CAP1/Tomohawk being focused on using only defensive method to regain momentum. The concept asked how will this Pokemon regain momentum both from a defensive and from an offensive point of view. This project has fallen into the defensive/stall mindset trap nearly 90% of the other CAP project fall into.
  11. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    And discussion of how to proceed from the concept lead towards an understanding that as offensive momentum was already mastered by other Pokemon, the best way to explore the concept of momentum was to make a Pokemon focused on less sweeper-oriented momentum, like Breloom and Heatran.
  12. srk1214

    srk1214 Mega Chessatron
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    With respect to Flame Charge:
    How is Flame Charge possibly going to let Tomohawk sweep? It does not have the stats for that, and at +1 it is still slower than many things it could face. Plus if it uses/wastes one moveslot on a base 50 non-stabbed attack that uses it's weaker attacking stat... its going to have to either 1)have 4MSS for a sweeper because it also uses Roost or 2)Not carry Roost and thus be easy to outspeed and revenge kill with a scarfer.

    Flame Charge should be Allowed. It's not going to sweep. Admittedly I will argue fiercely against it from a flavor standpoint, but that doesn't matter right now.
  13. capefeather

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    I agree with Rising_Dusk's concerns against Switcheroo and support for Rapid Spin (I guess flavour-wise it's *possible* considering Delibird gets it). Me First might be a very bad idea for much the same reasons as Disable, Torment and Speed-boosting moves; most of Tomohawk's intended counters are both neutral to their own STAB and itching to use them on Tomohawk.
  14. mudkipmaster

    mudkipmaster

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    Allow Trick/Switcheroo: Trick/Switcheroo can cripple a Pokémon your team has trouble with and could easily gain momentum for you and your team.
  15. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    I would like to hear more opinions regarding Rapid Spin; barring some solid objections, I will move it to allowed...
  16. Deck Knight

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    Allow Rapid Spin: Rapid Spin is a pretty essential Momentum move. These days not much tries to Spinblock, but if THawk has Rapid Spin there might be some attempt, as many Ghosts have either Thunderbolt or Ice Beam at their disposal. Not to mention Rapid Spin is already a crowded game, with both Excadrill and Starmie around for offensive spinners, both of which can scare the bejeezus out of most Ghosts.

    Allow Disable: Gengar loves this move because it has 3 Immunities. THawk has no such claim, and its weakness to Boltbeam only makes Disable less powerful than it otherwise would be.

    Disallow Switcheroo: There's already too much 4mss going on here, and TrickScarving or Trickbanding (or TrickLagging Tailing) isn't that much of a momentum gainer overall. It's a neat Trick, but it dilutes the focus.

    I am suggesting another new move: Fake Out for allowed.

    Yeah it's pretty weak, especially off 60 Atk, but it can give you that extra turn of Sandstorm damage that you need or let you recover with Leftovers to avoid a KO.
  17. Raikaria

    Raikaria

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    Current Pending List

    Block/Mean Look
    : Allow Mean Look [More appropriate flavor-wise]. This this mon is going to be based around Mometum, it will cause switches. Mean Look poses an alternative to U-turn, trapping the switch-in. It also has the advantage of forceing the mon effected by it to attack as you switch, rather than just coming in. This may not sound useful, until you realise choiced sets.

    Also, the possibility of this really punishes over-predicters. No-one will keep something that cannot beat the 'Hawk in on it.

    Gravity: I say disallow. I see no reason for Toma to be using this, especially as a Flying-type. Gravity is situational at best, and dosen't really help with mometum at all.

    Pain Split: Allow. An alternative to Roost, which has some offensive ability.

    Psycho Shift
    : Disallow. Barring hax, Toma should not be getting statused in the first place, due to priority Taunt/Sub. Let alone the flavor of a Fighting type learning a Psychic move which swaps status effects with it's mind.

    Rain Dance: I see no reason why not. Especially with it's tribal-warrior look. It LOOKS like a pokemon from the tribes that do Rain Dances.

    Rapid Spin: Disallow. Toma will probobly be drawing in Ghosts anyway due to his Fighting STAB, and Rapid Spin is not really mometum. Also, why spin when you can Priority Taunt?

    Refresh: See logic for Psycho Shift. Toma should not be taking status in the first place.

    Swords Dance: NO.
    Especially not with Baton Pass, for reasons I will be outlining below. If Baton Pass is moved to Disallowed, then this should still be disallowed, as it would be pointless.

    Contravertial Moves:
    Disable and Hypnosis:
    No. Hypnosis is too good on something that is likly to cause switches a lot, force a switch, sleep the switch-in. Especially with Mean Look too. Disable is... pretty bad anyway.

    Switchroo/Trick, however, I think should be allowed. It helps change mometum without forceing switches, and this mon could trick all sorts of things, like Iron Balls, due to Priority.


    Other Moves:

    Baton Pass for DISALLOWED

    Priority Baton Pass is insane, simply put, especially on a pokemon who is designed to change mometum, and hence, cause switches.

    Here's an example:

    Toma switched in!
    Foe switched out!
    Toma used Bulk Up!
    Toma used Baton Pass!
    Player X switched in Excadrill!

    Well done, you now have a +1/+1 Excadrill, who will not be OHKO'ed by ANY prioity move, except Azumarill's CB Aqua Jet... in the Rain, while he will return the favor with a OHKO. If Sand is also up, he outspeeds everything.

    Oh, and Excadrill resists or is outright immune to ALL of Toma's weaknesses, except Ice.

    I don't fancy stareing down a +1/+1 Ferrothorn either. Especially in the rain. Gyro Ball and Power Whip hurt enough as it is.

    Or how about a +1/+1 Landlos?

    The list keeps going, to be honest. The ease at which this thing can BP, and it's rather good synergy with many possible receivers [Especially Steels], is too much to allow BP, IMO.


    Reason for BP to be disallowed instead of Bulk Up is that Bulk Up is a required move. Dry Passing is pretty useless when you can switch normally, or U-turn.

    Let's not even go into Substitute. Excadrill having such synergy with Toma, and Subpassing... *shudder*. Who needs Excadrill behind a SUB, nd in on something that can't touch it?
  18. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
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    I'm supporting Raikaria here. Priority Bulk Up passing is way too much, and goes beyond the scope of this Pokémon. About Rapid Spin, instead, I'd lean towards allowing it. I understand it is a pretty good move, but while CAP certainly can defeat most common spikers 1 on 1 (barring probably Deoxys), he is fairly easily countered by the common spin blockers, especially Jellicent. On one side, this will prevent Tomohawk from becoming broken, on the other, though, this will help greatly our concept. Not only Rapid Spinning certainly shifts momentum, forcing the opponent to play a specific answer to us (in this case, switching in their spinblocker) is exactly what momentum is about - restricting the opponent's options.

    So yeah, Baton Pass for Disallowed, Rapid Spin for Allowed.

    About the other pending moves:

    Block/Mean Look for allowed: These moves are rarely - if anything - used in the current metagame. I'd like to see if Tomohawk can put them to good use (especially with Prankster)

    Gravity for disallowed: I disagree with people saying Gravity is pointless on Tomohawk. Focus Blast and Hurricane are good enough reasons for using Gravity, and a Gravity/Focus Blast/Hurricane/filler (maybe recovery) set is not something which goes with the original concept, at all.

    Pain Split for allowed: A fairly useless move on Tomohawk, due to his high base HP, still might see some use thanks to Prankster. No reason to disallow it (although if I were to submit a movepool I wouldn't include it).

    Psycho Shift for allowed: I disagree with Raikaria here. Aside from the fact I don't see any flavor issues here, Psycho Shift is far from useless (and I'd like to underline that being useless should be a reason for allowing moves, not disallowing them). Taking status and spread it on the opponent's team is a really good strategy, and is among the most basic momentum shifting moves. Plus, it CAN be statused regardless of priority Taunt/Sub, especially on switch-ins.

    Rain Dance for allowed: As Raikaria said, why not (although I don't care as much about flavor). I echo tomtom5858 here, in saying Prankster Rain Dance is a good way to shift momentum in a Sand infested metagame. Plus, Tomohawk looks to be a good switch into Tyranitar and Hippowdon, so it'll have an easier time changing the weather, compared to the genies.

    Refresh for allowed: Again, why not. I'd rather use Psycho Shift, but Refresh is far from broken, so let's allow it.

    Swords Dance for disallowed: Priority SD passing is even more broken, potentially, than priority BU passing.

    Also, I'd like to contest the placement of Stealth Rock. I don't like Stealth Rock on this Pokémon, for a simple reason. While SR can certainly earn momentum, it's way too easy to fit it into Tomohawk's movesets, since he gets a perfect dual STAB. Plus, he can Rapid Spin, and can come in to set up SR repeteadly if needed with his bulk and maybe recovery. So Stealth Rock should be Disallowed.
  19. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    Prankster Rain Dance combined with STAB Hurricane and good Fighting-type moves would just make Tomohawk a bulkier Tornadus. Prankster Hail is a far better option for shutting down other weather, since rain is still such a huge threat.

    On another note, in light of the observed dangers with Bulk Up + Baton Pass, I suggest Bulk Up for disallowed. Almost all Fighting-types get it, but there are exceptions. With the issues with Prankster Baton Passing and therefore the reasoning for Tomo to not have stat-boosting moves, that's a good reason for Tomo to be another exception.

    Also, Ingrain for disallowed. It isn't of the slightest use to Tomohawk; all it does is facilitate Baton Pass chains. It doesn't fit Tomo or the concept in the slightest.
  20. zyrefredric

    zyrefredric

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    The time Prankster was voted as an ability, I am sure that I would vote for any move that lowers the opponent's Attack, Special Attack and/or Speed, or raises user's Defense and/or Special Defense to be allowed. I'm listing them all down below. Know that many of them could not conceivably fit Tomohawks design, so I'm only bolding (and supporting) those that do.

    Charm/Featherdance/Tickle
    Captivate
    Barrier/Iron Defense/Acid Armor/Cotton Guard
    Bulk Up/Curse/Coil
    Amnesia
    Calm Mind/Quiver Dance
    Stockpile/Cosmic Power/Defend Order
    Scary Face/Cotton Spore
    Memento
    Acupressure
    Light Sreen
    Reflect
    Will-o-wisp
    Glare/Thunderwave

    (For the flavor reasons, note that Tomo's pre-evo is a normal type cutemon. Then, Tomohawk itself has shamanistic connotations, so yeah.)
  21. min min

    min min

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    No to Me First. While there is no kill like the overkill, people complain about Scarf Ditto all the time. What will this make, Scarf Ditto with priority? Setup sweepers already have a hard enough time in CAP, please don't kill it completely.
  22. capefeather

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    I know that it's late, but I want to revisit Lovely Kiss / Sleep Powder. Until now, I've wanted to avoid having something that's balanced by a rule as dubious as Sleep Clause, but after mulling it over for a while, I think that it could be fine to allow it. Hypnosis has terrible accuracy and no one's going to use it, while even with a 75% accuracy sleep move, the opponent (assuming it's faster) has a 50% probability of waking up before Tomohawk can do anything else. That's effectively a 37.5% probability of the attack giving an advantage. Combining it with Substitute makes it better, but ultimately it may be unreliable enough, especially with Sleep Clause in play.
  23. Raikaria

    Raikaria

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    May 20, 2009
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    1,289
    Disagreeing with this.

    Scarf Ditto copys the foe, and then attacks. It copies all of their stat boosts.

    Me First just makes you use the move that your foe will first, running off your stats. Useful for dragons... and a handful of other stuff, like Lucario, or frail sweepers. That's about it. Nothing like Scarf Ditto.

    Also, I really need to stop refernceing flavor in the arguments here.

    Still, I think with Priority Taunt/Sub, that Refresh and Psycho Shift would be of minimal use, and would just wind up eating up VGM slots. There might be a gimmick Flame/Toxic Orb + Psycho Shift set somewhere, but, yeah.
  24. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
    is a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    Ok, everything is set, except Disable, Hypnosis, and Switcheroo/Trick.
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