CAP 12 CAP1 - Part 5a - (Ability Discussion)

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jas61292

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Here, directly in the post you quoted, I just mentioned two other methods besides tanking that change momentum, not even one of them being the primary argument, yet you completely ignored them and said 'I don't want a tank.' You didn't even address the argument of how being a tank automatically disqualifies this set from being a momentum changer (and just in case you missed it, I am not advocating a full-on tank).
Ok, I'm not saying that there are not other things you can do with it if you give it intimidate. What I am saying is that doing that is almost too good, forcing people to use it like a tank for it to be at its best.

You didn't even say anything about how the Pokemon we have now with decent defenses and Intimidate aren't automatically ruled as tanks. Primary examples: Salamence and Gyarados. There are specialized sets for them to function as tanks, but they are, first and foremost, primarily offensive Pokemon.
If you read my previous post, I addressed this point. Yeah they have decent defenses, and yes they are not tanks. But the point I made was that they are only decent, while CAP1 is significantly more bulky. It is even significantly bulkier than Scrafty who is the bulkiest intimidator. After an intimidate, CAP1 would be so overly bulky, it would make Skarmory look weak. With the opponent at -1, CAP1 would take hits like as if had over 140 defense. Pair that with 105 HP, and that is just too bulky.

And do they change momentum? Hell yes, that's their job. These Pokemon were threatening because on top of awesome defensive typings that allowed them to switch into a plethora of common attacks, they absolutely forced physical attackers out by lowering their attack by a stage, and threatening to go to town on the team with boosted sweeps. Neither of these Pokemon would have half the presence they do without that free -1.
True once again, but my main argument against this is that ALL intimidators regardless of stats pretty much end up as boosting sweepers, which everyone agreed we do not want for CAP1.

Skarmory is one of the best momentum changers in the entire game and a prime example of a Pokemon you don't ever want to give a free turn to. It can wall a plethora of physical attackers that aren't prepared to deal with it, negate attempts to setup through Whirlwind, and make it easier for your team to come out on top through free damage from hazards. Yet, for all its defensive prowess, there are a number of physical attackers capable of outright overpowering it, not to mention mixed and special sweepers. Skarmory is a nigh-perfect example of a momentum changer with humbling weaknesses, which is a spot-on representation of what we want our new CAP to be.
Ok, I understand all this, and Skarmory may not have been the best example, but my point was that this guy will be bulkier than Skarmory after an Intimidate, and while sure you could say that changes momentum, you could say the same of any wall, and that's not what we, or at least I, had in mind for this Pokemon. If being a wall is being a momentum Pokemon, then this concept was doomed from the start.

Oh, and don't say was Skarmory does that CAP1 doesn't as far as moves. Movepool isn't decided yet, and if it does get whirlwind, you can bet it will be exactly the same.

EDIT:

Except CAP 1 probably will be a tank. I don't know if you're expecting certain boosting moves to be allowed, but I wouldn't count on that. We've been using tanks like Heatran and Breloom as models for this CAP the whole time. The stats are already pretty tank-like. There's nothing at all wrong with CAP 1 being a tank.
True, we did base it on them. But since when is Breloom a tank? It can barely take a neutral hit and yet it is great at changing momentum. CAP1 already has great bulk. We don't need to bolster that to help it change momentum.
 
With the opponent at -1, CAP1 would take hits like as if had over 140 defense. Pair that with 105 HP, and that is just too bulky.
Hence why your opponent would switch out and Intimidate is no more. Plus you gained momentum in the process of them switching. Perfectly suiting the concept. Your opponent doesn't have to stay in and keep hitting it with physical attacks.


True once again, but my main argument against this is that ALL intimidators regardless of stats pretty much end up as boosting sweepers, which everyone agreed we do not want for CAP1.
That means nothing, nothing sais we have to give this cap any boosting moves. Infact most people agree with your oppinion about boosting sweeper so chances of boosting moves are slim, I would think.
 

DetroitLolcat

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I kinda like Intimidate. Paired with a specially defensive spread, this pokemon will be able to take virtually any non-boosted hit and many boosted ones. We have to make sure to not give it the ability to boost, however. If it can force a switch, it can cancel the opponent's momentum and replace it with it's own momentum. The stat spread is practically BEGGING for Intimidate.

Magic Bounce? Maybe. It does turn the opponent's entry hazards and status moves against them, but that only stops teh opponent's momentum. It doesn't gain much for the user. Technically, it's not what we want for this concept, and I already see Intimidate as a better choice for this CAP.

Prankster? No. Getting faster Thunder Waves and stuff isn't momentum. This pokemon is already bulky enough to take those kinds of hits and fire back with a regular Thunder Wave or Will-o-Wisp. Honestly, I think this pokemon should shy away from status moves, as they don't really build momentum for the user.
 
If this CAP got Intimidate and Butterfly Dance I would rq life.

But seriously, Intimidate is extraordinarily helpful. As X-I omg mentioned, with Intimidate, this CAP will only have that 105/140+ defenses only before the switch, which is perfect for taking the huge boosted hits that are coming from the otherwise unstoppable sweepers. I mean, a +2 Excadrill is enough to at least 2HKO every poke in the metagame. If we give CAP1 Intimidate, this would be one of the few pokes outside of priority, who could recover from that kind of power, which is a huge boon.
 
I kinda like Intimidate. Paired with a specially defensive spread, this pokemon will be able to take virtually any non-boosted hit and many boosted ones. We have to make sure to not give it the ability to boost, however. If it can force a switch, it can cancel the opponent's momentum and replace it with it's own momentum. The stat spread is practically BEGGING for Intimidate.

Magic Bounce? Maybe. It does turn the opponent's entry hazards and status moves against them, but that only stops teh opponent's momentum. It doesn't gain much for the user. Technically, it's not what we want for this concept, and I already see Intimidate as a better choice for this CAP.

Prankster? No. Getting faster Thunder Waves and stuff isn't momentum. This pokemon is already bulky enough to take those kinds of hits and fire back with a regular Thunder Wave or Will-o-Wisp. Honestly, I think this pokemon should shy away from status moves, as they don't really build momentum for the user.
Magic bounce does infact give momentum, stopping a suporter mon from doing its job and forcing it out. Even threats without a fully suportive role, it can build up momentum in the sence of reflecting back status moves on switch in turn. And long term momentum by putting up hazards through the ability.

Maybe not on par with intimidate as far momentum making goes, but hardly any other abilities that are.
 
Attract said:
If this CAP got Intimidate and Butterfly Dance I would rq life.
It won't. Give reach and I a bit more credit than that!
DetroitLolcat said:
Prankster? No. Getting faster Thunder Waves and stuff isn't momentum. This pokemon is already bulky enough to take those kinds of hits and fire back with a regular Thunder Wave or Will-o-Wisp. Honestly, I think this pokemon should shy away from status moves, as they don't really build momentum for the user.
You need to keep in mind that Prankster also gives priority to moves like Substitute, which CAP1 will be using frequently. Furthermore, being able to come in and Glare/Thunder Wave an opponent's speed-boosting Pokemon on the bat regardless of their Speed is the ultimate in momentum theft. It allows you to, quite literally, steal the momentum back even if you've let a Salamence setup to +2 or higher.
DetroitLolCat said:
Magic Bounce? Maybe. It does turn the opponent's entry hazards and status moves against them, but that only stops teh opponent's momentum. It doesn't gain much for the user. Technically, it's not what we want for this concept, and I already see Intimidate as a better choice for this CAP.
I suspect that there are also a few others besides yourself who feel this way, so I'm going to clarify even more. Magic Bounce is the most effective on the turn you switch-in. This is because your opponent really wants to setup some form of strategy, be it Thunder Wave against your Latias, Roar against your +1 Volcarona, Glare against your Excadrill, Spore against your anything, entry hazards from Ferrothorn against your walled threat, or whatever. There is a tremendous list here! That said, Magic Bounce is basically you acknowledging that "Crap, I let them get in a position where they can set up against me! That's bad!" and then you saying "Aha, but CAP1 can turn that around and steal his momentum for myself!" and lets your do it at any stage of the match. That is exactly what this concept is about, taking back the momentum of a match at any point in it. Magic Bounce fits that role exquisitely.
 
Regeneration.

Seeing as it is a Pokémon that's probably going to switch quite some times, this could be a nice way to put pressure on opponents and emphasize on its bulk.
 
It won't. Give reach and I a bit more credit than that!
Hahaha, I know and I do xD
I was taken aback at the ridiculous potential of that :P

Which brings me to my point. Wouldn't No Guard be like giving the poke a free Butterfly Dance? Without the necessary investment in SpAtt EV's, the CAP would be free to put 252 in SpDef (or Def) and 252 into Speed, while still being able to hit with attacks that are about x1.5 stronger (a boost equal to +1)? Hurricane>AirSlash is 1.6x stronger, and Focus Blast>Aura Sphere is x1.33 stronger. I think No Guard is either overpowered, or useless depending on the moves we give to the CAP, and is too restricting for the movepool.
I feel the same way about Prankster though it wouldn't necessarily turn the CAP into a sweeper. I'm uncomfortable enough with Whimsicott having priority paralysis, so a CAP that can abuse this AND be able to threaten with its own physical force is just too much for me, no matter how much momentum it will gain.
Also, people underestimate what priority Substitute means. It will let the CAP Sub with no prediction necessary and bypass the slow speed we gave it on purpose, which is ridiculous to try to counter. Essentially the CAP will become a Baton Pass team's #1 sweeper with just Substitute/Taunt/Aura Sphere/Air Slash. Just saying.
 
Prankster - Priority Substitute, Encore, Glare, Disable and Roost would be very useful to gain momentum. For example, with Prankster CAP1 should be able to switch into physical setup sweepers like Terrakion, Excadrill, and Blaziken as soon as they switch in and pose an immediate threat with Glare.

Unaware also stops many physical setup sweepers, as they will be unable to deal significant damage to CAP1 due to its lack of common physical weaknesses. With Unaware, CAP1 to poses a significant threat to common pokemon like Conkeldurr and Excadrill.

Intimidate gives CAP1 the ability so switch into physical attackers without boosts and tank hits. Unlike Unaware, Intimidate also effects powerful life orb attackers. However, intimidate doesn't stop pokemon behind substitute and does little to stop pokemon that already have boosts.

Regenerator
lets CAP1 switch in on resisted hits repeatedly, but it might be too powerful for a pokemon with Roost and immunity to Spikes and TSpikes.

Magic Bounce would be great to make CAP1 immune to status and stop the opponent from setting hazards. Enemy Breloom would be a free switch to CAP1. Magic Bounce may be too powerful for a pokemon with CAP1's stats, though.

No Guard prevents major momentum loss due to an untimely miss and gives CAP1 100% accurate high power stabs.

Flare Boost (yes, this is a real ability) raises Special Attack by 50% when the pokemon is afflicted with a burn. The sheer amount of damage that CAP1 will do to pokemon that don't resist its attacks will build momentum and it can heal with Roost.
 
I know this has been mentioned before, but I think Serene Grace could work quite well. This is poll jumping slightly, but I'm going to assume that this poke is going to get air slash. Nothing gains momentum better than Air Slash flinches in a row. It stops the opponent and keeps you going. The opponent literally can't move, meaning that you have stopped their momentum and that you can take them out while gaining your own.
 
at first I was strongly opposed to prankster but... priority roost, glare and substitute seem very good but not overpowered as long as we are careful.

I still think regenerate is awesome, switching in at full health is pretty valuable as there will be no way to slowly inch past your momentum roadblock.

Air lock/cloudnine, I see these as being the flavor ability considering we are flying type.

intimidate is great, I would be very happy with this but I still prefer regenerate.

Edit: I can't decide whether I like poison heal or magic bounce better.
 
I think Unaware is a great option for this CAP. Ignoring Stat Boosts is a great option for a momentum changer, especially if the opponent has been setting up. Rendering those turns and boosts effectively useless (excepting Speed, of course) is a huge blow to the opponent while not affecting every Pokemon/strategy, and it can prove to be a useful push in the right direction.

Other than that, Intimidate forces a lot of switches, and the -1 Atk is always appreciated. This also has some merit.
 
Magic Bounce is the most Momentum-ish ability in my opinion. Nothing says "I just stole your Momentum" better than netting a free switch and crippling the opponent at the same time.
 
I just want to keep in mind a few things about abilities.
Compoundeyes is generally a bug-type ability, because in reality only insects or other 'bugs' possess Compound Eyes.
Magic Guard on top of being overpowering is also kind of senseless. Really, this makes no sense.
Cursed Body thus far has only appeared on Ghost-type Pokemon. This probably has to do with some kind of mythology about ghosts and curses or whatever. Point is it just wouldn't fit on a Fighting/Flying type unless measures were taken to change its appearance accordingly.
Air Lock is unfitting as it is meant to be a trait exclusively belonging to Rayquaza. Cloud Nine has the same effect and would actually make a lot of sense on a Fighting/Flying type, so wouldn't that work out better? I don't care that Revenankh had it, because that was a stupid decision.
Download has only appeared on Pokemon created or modified by humans. Unless we end up using the fighter plane design there's no way this would be appropriate.

Just throwing that out there. I know this is meant for competitive viability, but some of this stuff doesn't make any sense.
What appearance?

(the above applies to the whole post)
 
I'm honestly not sold on Intimidate as the best ability here. It's a one time-effect, providing only a single stat reduction. Suppressed by Defiant, Clear Body, Hyper Cutter (not that they're common), and any Substitute. It's doing nothing against Special Attackers. It's not taking away any sort of defensive boosts. You can't switch in to activate it multiple times because you're possibly getting hit by hazards and neutral (DD) or +1 (SD) attacks.

The benefits are obvious, but I see just as many opportunities where it's not too flashy. Of course i'm generally not a very good user of abilities such as Intimidate, and any good player will use it to its fullest potential, but I would choose a much more flexible ability on something defined as controlling Momentum.
I'm not opposing it as an option, people clearly support it, but I would expect something that challenges both sides of the offensive spectrum and can do more than just suggest a switch. Obviously moves are always important, and if defensive boosting, phazing, U-Turn and healing is getting involved, suddenly it's not so bad - but then i'd still prefer something like Unaware.
 
magic bounce looks too powerful. When compared to Xatu, this Caps BST is about 65 points higher and has superior typing. Xatu just became viable based only on this specific ability. Magic bounce would seem to bring more to the battle than just a change in momentum with this ability attached.
 
Intimidate is better than Unaware because 9/10 time CAP1 will be switching into Pokémon with no boosts. I don't like Unaware because it is situational whereas Intimidate is always-on.
 
Intimidate is better than Unaware because 9/10 time CAP1 will be switching into Pokémon with no boosts. I don't like Unaware because it is situational whereas Intimidate is always-on.
That 9/10 figure isn't completely true. There is a lot of boosting this generation. And also, you're forgetting the fact that Intimidate only affects Attack, while Unaware affects all boosts.

But I'm strongly for Intimidate being the primary ability on this CAP. With so many strong physical threats, it would be a godsend against them. In the subject of momentum, it primarily slows it down obviously for your opponent, which gives you time to try strategies to gain it.
 
Mischeivous Heart
everyone that has encounter an erufuun knows how annoying it can be, Sableye is other annoying bastard, this is a poke that is gonna gain momentum, being a slow mon and still being able to get many moves before your opponent is great (also this could use something like the great priority encore) and would restrict the foe moves, which is what I think we're looking for

Regenerator
you recover 1/3 health for turn, lowbro is dam hard to kill with this this help you keep momentum, recover health and not die as easily and you don't have to suffer everytime you swich out, not loosing momentum everytime you do so, this also gives you more reasons to put full health and avoid using Attack/Speed "sweeper" EVS

Natural Cure
The same reason as Regenerate, this helps you not diying for status, this also helps you get two-turn Rest while not being as random as shed skin

Magic Bounce
The best ability in the game to gain momentum, every hazard pokemon has to swich to another pokemon just to have another chance to do their job, this als makes the Cap doesn't care about Stealth Rock that much, your team gets tons of support and doesn't have to worry about Status (unless they are form attacks) and this let him swich into many deffensive treaths and don't give a shit, this is great momentum changer since this way, Spore, Toxic, T-wave, Spikes, Steath Rock and taunt don´t have to make your team so prepared to this kind of treaths, porbably the best ability for this Cap since this completely makes your opponent change is strategy just to fight your poke, letting incapacitate his upcoming mon or something worst, also Magic Bounce > Insomnia/Vital Spirit, this also gives a lot of impredictability cause nobody in their right mind will use Stealth Rock when a poke with the possibility of having Magic Mirror is on the field (i´ve seen this with Xatu many time) even being able to be an effective lead

I think Intimidate is good for a Secondary Ability, but checking the physical treaths while living the special ones a side makes this Cap more of a Physical Moemntum Changer but mostly useless agains Special Sweepers, kind of situational
 

Ignus

Copying deli meat to hard drive
I feel that Unaware is the right ability for the cap. Sometimes, the only thing stopping you from destroying the enemy team is a sweeper with (in the case of leaf storm Serpierior) a huge, continually boosting stat. A flying/fighting with unaware could counter Serpierior as well as allowing you to break through the defenses of a brittle, buffed up glass cannon like Marowak.
Magic Mirror is another good one for this cap. absorbing and reversing a incoming thunder wave or will-o-wisp (or really any status!) could be the difference between a win and a loss. some of the other ideas here have been good, too, like Intimidate, Regeneration or Poison heal But I feel like these first two were better than the other options.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
I'm going to also throw my support behind Magic Mirror as the best ability for this capmon for basically the reasons said above. Nothing is more potent than throwing nearly /anything/ your opponent was going to do back in their face when it comes to gaining momentum.

Note: Prankster is also a great option for Glaring, taunting, subbing, etc. to totally ruin a truckload of otherwise potent threats.
 
Just sort of making a list right now, I haven't honed in on anything

Marvel Scale, with some sort of Toxic/Flame Orb set and Roost this Pokemon Could be incredibly bulky, which adds to momentum if you can slowly wear down your opponent's Tanks, and possibly cripple with Pyscho Shift or something of that sort.

Regeneration, is good for very obvious reasons. It will let CAP 1 switch in and out of battle over and over without much worry over SR or minor damage.

Cloud Nine, has situational uses against weather teams, and might be worth thought for DW or secondary

Serene Grace, because we all know how much a little flinch hax can turn the tids of a game.

Unaware, ignoring those stat boosts can get any halfway decent pokemon a great little advantage.
 
If we do give the CAP Magic Bounce it should probably be the Dream World ability, likewise with Wonder scale. They are just too overpowered for normal competitive play.
 

jas61292

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I think Intimidate is good for a Secondary Ability, but checking the physical threats while living the special ones a side makes this Cap more of a Physical Momentum Changer but mostly useless against Special Sweepers, kind of situational
Another good point against Intimidate, but I'm sure you all know by now I don't want it, so I would just like to give support to a few other abilities.

I already talked about Regeneration and Vital Spirit in my first post, so I wont restate that, but a few other people have brought up I do like, including:

Cloud Nine: well actually most people have said air lock, but that is a Legendary exclusive, so I think Cloud Nine is more appropriate. The ability to swtich in any shut down weather sweepers is invaluable, whether it is reducing their speed or power, any advantage you can gain is really helpful, especially against rock types in sandstorm as it eliminates the boost to their SpDef, letting you score a potential KO easier.

Magic Bounce: as others have said, nothing really switches momentum better than reflecting an opponents move. It also lets CAP1 steal momentum from more support oriented Pokemon, rather than just offensive ones. My main problem is with the flavor. It doesn't really fit at all. This is more of a Psychic powers based ability.

Prankster: not my favorite, but as a second ability wold allow it to go two different directions, as one with this ability would more likely use the time after its switch in to use supportive moves, something others might not. Definitely adds some variety without being too useless or too good.


Though, if you give me Big Pecks as the flavor ability, I really won't care what the others are. I would sooooo use Big Pecks.
 
IMO, Serene Grace, Prankster and Intimidate are the best abilities for this CAP.

Intimidate is reallly obvious, it lets CAP 1 act as a Skarmory but with awesome offensive typing.

Prankster means priority Substitute, Roost and Glare, pretty good while not broken.

Serene Grace lets you act as a fighting Togekiss and adds unpredictability, as your opponent will think "If I send a fast mon I can take a priority Glare, but if i send a slow mon I can be flinched to death... Which ability does it have?"
 
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