^or maybe if he receives ice punch as a move tutor. Being able to take on gliscor is something only a few Fighting types can boast off.
Ice Punch on Conk would be amazing, much less things would be able to wall him, namely the mentioned Gliscor. It would also give Conkeldurr an edge over Breloom, as he can now more efficiently eliminate Pokemon such as Dragonite.^or maybe if he receives ice punch as a move tutor. Being able to take on gliscor is something only a few Fighting types can boast off.
So many things wrong here, i'd like to correct a few of them.Another thing of note is that Breloom has access to Drain Punch, Mach Punch, and Stone Edge as well, plus it has the luxury of using a secondary STAB in Seed Bomb. Spore is just icing on the cake. Breloom's movepool is miles ahead of that of Conkeldurr. The difference in Attack isn't significant enough to warrant usage over Breloom, and the difference in bulk is mitigated by Poison Heal. Breloom's SubPunch set is also less predictable, since it could either be a SubSeed version or an offensive SubPunch variant. Bulk Up Conkeldurr, as alphatron already mentioned, has nothing on Breloom, since Guts only raises the Attack after it is hit by status, Breloom has a pseudo-immunity to status. Even Bulk Up Scrafty has more of a niche than Conkeldurr thanks to Shed Skin+Rest.
While Conkeldurr's two most common sets are overshadowed Breloom, I think this Pokemon is still salvageable, in the form of the Choice Band set. Yeah, there's Terrakion and it's big bad Choice Band Close Combat and Stone Edge. However, very few things want to take a 624 Attack Hammer Arm, much less one that nabs a Guts boost from switching into a Thunder Wave or Will-O-Wisp or something. Choice Band Mach Punch is also an incredibly powerful priority move. While Conkeldurr is no Scizor, Fighting is a better Offensive type than Steel and Conkeldurr can still take out some troublesome frail sweepers.
That being said, once Technician Breloom is released, Conkeldurr's Mach Punch will be inferior to that of Breloom once more. Perhaps Conkeldurr is doomed to failure, only time will tell.
Okay, first of all, even though Conkeldurr isn't x4 weak to Flying, it still takes hefty damage from Brave Bird, even after a Bulk Up. Yes, Celebi shits all over Breloom, but Slowbro and such shit on Conkeldurr. Every Pokemon has its checks and counters. You're also only listing the negatives of that secondary Grass-typing and completely ignoring the positives, namely the Electric and Water resistances. While Conkeldurr does indeed have more natural bulk, this is mitigated by the fact that Breloom gets an extra 6.25% health each turn. Seed Bomb is definitely not "pretty useless anyhow", as it allows Breloom to be probably the best Rain-stallbreaker in the meta. As for the Spore issue, yeah, you can sac a Poke to take it, but at the end of the day, you've still sacced a Poke. With new sleep mechanics Breloom is almost guaranteed to put at least one Pokemon out of commission for the duration of the game, Conkeldurr has done a good job if it even takes out one of the opponent's Pokes.So many things wrong here, i'd like to correct a few of them.
Firstly;conkeldurr has an enormous advantage-he isn't 4X weak to flying, which means skarmory can't pummel him with ease. Secondly, he's got payback, which means he isn't easily beaten by celebi. Oh, and finally, i do believe that he is more bulky. A secondary stab in seed bomb is pretty useless anyhow, and spore,while cool, can be absorbed by sacrifice bait. In short, i find that breloom is much easier to take out in every way, other than perhaps having to lose a pokemon to spore. I mean, what does conkeldurr lose to that breloom doesn't? The only things i can think of are powerful water-type attackers, and even then mach punch plus drain punch can crush them as they switch in.
This makes a lot of sense actually. Flame Orb Conkeldurr is the Choice Band set with a status immunity and the ability to switch moves. Drain Punch mitigates the burn damage. It makes a cool Trick switch-in too!yup, and don't waste time with Bulk Up+Flame Orb - use one or the other. You already hit hard enough with the Guts boost and you should really be punching holes and hitting and running - not sweeping teams. Drain Punch/Mach Punch/Facade/Payback @ Orb is his best set.
Toxic Orb will deal less damage if you plan on staying in for 1 or 2 turns and the same amount of damage as Flame Orb if you stay in 3 turns. I'm not sure which orb is better on Conkeldurr, but it probably depends mainly on how you play it.Why have Toxic orb? Flame orb is the much more prefered item since it does not badly poisons conkeldurr
cb conkeldurr is the only one i have ever / will ever use, lol. the really scary thing about cb conkeldurr is when it gets a guts boost on top of the Choice Band boost - something is definitely dying every time it comes in, especially since most opponents go 'lol bulk up'.Does the Choice Band set have any advantages over Flame Orb? Maybe it can run Hammer Arm instead of Drain Punch a little more comfortably due to the lack of burn damage?
Just posting to say that i agree with Tehy and many things posted here are wrong. No set of Conkeldur is outclassed by Brellom. The Bulk Up set is impossible to take down from the physical side after 1 Bulk Up unlike Breloom, who still dies from any remotely strong super effective attack or very powerful neutral physical attacks, like Infernape's Flare Blitz, CB Haxorus's Outrage, Gyarados's Bounce, Skarmory's Brave Bird, Gliscor's Acrobat, Mamoswine's Icicle Crash, Cloyster's Icicle Spear and some more that i may forget... Also Conkeldurr has an immensely more powerful Attack than Breloom, which doesn't use any EVs in Attack since you are talking about the Bulk Up set. Conkedlurr has room for Mach Punch, unlike Breloom and can destroy Celebi also unlike Breloom. All that are without Guts activated, which if you do, then Conk is in another level of power from Breloom. The CB and the Flame Orb set are again 2 times stronger than Breloom initially, have very strong priority, and have much better bulk initially.Another thing of note is that Breloom has access to Drain Punch, Mach Punch, and Stone Edge as well, plus it has the luxury of using a secondary STAB in Seed Bomb. Spore is just icing on the cake. Breloom's movepool is miles ahead of that of Conkeldurr. The difference in Attack isn't significant enough to warrant usage over Breloom, and the difference in bulk is mitigated by Poison Heal. Breloom's SubPunch set is also less predictable, since it could either be a SubSeed version or an offensive SubPunch variant. Bulk Up Conkeldurr, as alphatron already mentioned, has nothing on Breloom, since Guts only raises the Attack after it is hit by status, Breloom has a pseudo-immunity to status. Even Bulk Up Scrafty has more of a niche than Conkeldurr thanks to Shed Skin+Rest.
While Conkeldurr's two most common sets are overshadowed Breloom, I think this Pokemon is still salvageable, in the form of the Choice Band set. Yeah, there's Terrakion and it's big bad Choice Band Close Combat and Stone Edge. However, very few things want to take a 624 Attack Hammer Arm, much less one that nabs a Guts boost from switching into a Thunder Wave or Will-O-Wisp or something. Choice Band Mach Punch is also an incredibly powerful priority move. While Conkeldurr is no Scizor, Fighting is a better Offensive type than Steel and Conkeldurr can still take out some troublesome frail sweepers.
That being said, once Technician Breloom is released, Conkeldurr's Mach Punch will be inferior to that of Breloom once more. Perhaps Conkeldurr is doomed to failure, only time will tell.
fair enough, different niches, my bad for bringing up the comparison.As for the comparison with Terrakion I think you're understimating Terra a bit. Being able to outspeed and OHKO (after a SD) the premier fighting counter in the game is something that Conkeldurr would kill for. Also, unlike Conkeldurr, Terrakion can use its speed to act as a solid revenge killer to many offensive threats of the current meta such us DD Nite and Salamence and other stat uppers like Volcarona.
how well does BU fare against Gliscor? subtoxic wins, acrobat wins, but what about the other two variants?To be honest though, I still think that the BU variant is the best one. The ability to switch moves while boosting your stats and recovering HP with drain punch is invaluable for something with the Conk's "staying power".
After a bulk up you can do 34,75% - 40,96% to the standard defensive variant of Gliscor with stone edge and 51,98% - 61,3% if your get a guts boost. Poison heal will probably turn a clean 2hko in a 3hko and a 3hko in a 4hko, and this is assuming that Gliscor taunts you as it comes in. So, yeah, you can beat toxic\taunt\EQ\protect Gliscor 1 vs 1.how well does BU fare against Gliscor? subtoxic wins, acrobat wins, but what about the other two variants?
this is assuming that Gliscor taunts you as it comes in
My comments in BOLD.Okay, first of all, even though Conkeldurr isn't x4 weak to Flying, it still takes hefty damage from Brave Bird, even after a Bulk Up.
About 42%, if i remember correctly. Heavily offset after a drain punch. Breloom is easily 2hitko'd after using drain punch, and skarmory can use it as healbait, making a huge difference.
Yes, Celebi shits all over Breloom, but Slowbro and such shit on Conkeldurr. Every Pokemon has its checks and counters.
Your original argument was that "Conkeldurr's two most common sets are overshadowed(By) Breloom". If conkeldurr beats an OU poke that breloom doesn't(Two, with skarmory), then it's not all that overshadowed, now is it?
You're also only listing the negatives of that secondary Grass-typing and completely ignoring the positives, namely the Electric and Water resistances.
I was pointing out that it isn't outclassed, which is accomplished by listing negatives. What did you expect?
While Conkeldurr does indeed have more natural bulk, this is mitigated by the fact that Breloom gets an extra 6.25% health each turn.
Not if the attack deals over 100% of breloom's health, but not conkeldurr's, as i already said. Also, regenerating more off of drain punches means you're bulkier, and conkeldurr definitely does that.
Seed Bomb is definitely not "pretty useless anyhow", as it allows Breloom to be probably the best Rain-stallbreaker in the meta.
Really? What are you beating now that you weren't already beating? Gyarados falls to stone edge anyhow, and the other water-types don't enjoy a drain punch to the face. I guess jellicent and tentacruel, but tentacruel/jellicent should be boostbait anyhow, with enough speed to outrun taunt jelly. I suppose gliscor as well, but it should be walling you, taunting you, and SD'ing at any rate. All you're really doing is hitting some stuff somewhat harder, which conkeldurr already does with his higher base attack and guts.
As for the Spore issue, yeah, you can sac a Poke to take it, but at the end of the day, you've still sacced a Poke.
I sac the same poke just to KILL conkeldurr. Same deal, really.
With new sleep mechanics Breloom is almost guaranteed to put at least one Pokemon out of commission for the duration of the game, Conkeldurr has done a good job if it even takes out one of the opponent's Pokes.
But after that, you aren't killing anything, because you invested ridiculously in bulk to survive attacks conk can already survive, so you don't have offensive presence.
You also fail to realize that while there are more Pokemon out there that can deal with Breloom than Conkeldurr, Breloom defeats more Pokemon out there than Conkeldurr.
Give me a list and i can possibly agree. I'd think of some on my own but i'm not feeling charitable right now. Besides, being a little bit better overall doesn't make conkeldurr useless, just niche-ier.
What are the teams that Breloom does best against? Volt-turn and Rain stall, two of the three most common team archetypes.
As i already pointed out, celebi is on volt-turn teams, and it can own breloom.
The third of these team archetypes, Sand, doesn't fare much better against Breloom, as their king, Tyranitar, gets absolutely dominated by Breloom.
Fire blast and ice beam on the switch-in, plus 6.25% a turn regeneration say hello. Also, how does conkeldurr NOT do that? Yes, breloom does that AND rain, but still.
Breloom is a much better fit for the current metagame, and that's that.
Provide some actual proof or you'll be ignored, and that's that.
Skarmory can just bait the Spore and then switch and sac a poke, then proceed to smash loom for the rest of the match with that 4x Brave Bird. The vast majority of Skarm don't run taunt anyway, so they'll have to eat a Drain Punch for a respectable chunk of damage if they want to WW out conk. If they try to BB, they'll just get their damage healed off by that mighty Drain Punch anyway. Loom is a great pokemon, I'm not disputing that, but saying that it outclasses Conkeldurr is just ridiculous. Conk can just rampage through most teams, especially the standard volt-turn if it doesn't have some kind of weird LO Psychic Celebi. Conkeldurr has been a key player on a lot of my most successful teams, and those who put it down are probably looking at its performance on paper as opposed to its performance in actual matches against common team archetypes.IMO, conkeldurr fears skarmory much more than breloom does. Skarmory outspeeds conkeldurr and taunts him before he can get enough boosts. Breloom is usually able to outspeed skarmory and put him to sleep before he can threaten breloom (assuming sleep clause isn't already active), and therefore fears him much less. Also, breloom can boost its attack TWO stages in one turn thanks to swords dance, something conkeldurr can't do.
Conkeldurr can 2-3hko Skarmory no matter what the set (CB Conk 2hkoes with Hammer Arm, and Bulk Up 2hkoes at +1 if statused or 3hkoes at +1 unstatused), while Brelloom fails to do any significant damage before getting WWed out, after Sleep Clause is activated.IMO, conkeldurr fears skarmory much more than breloom does. Skarmory outspeeds conkeldurr and taunts him before he can get enough boosts. Breloom is usually able to outspeed skarmory and put him to sleep before he can threaten breloom (assuming sleep clause isn't already active), and therefore fears him much less. Also, breloom can boost its attack TWO stages in one turn thanks to swords dance, something conkeldurr can't do.
Well considering the fact that Conkeldur can easily be statused if you play smartly, and also that Skarmory is switching in against Conk, so he will be at +1, and you realize that your only option is to phaze him out while taking ~50% damage. And if WW brings out the wrong poke, good luck finding time to Roost again. Not saying that Skarmory cannot check Conk, but many times he is very pressed to do so...I don't consider a 2-3 HKO particularly ownage. You can phaze it out the first 2 times it comes in, and if need be you can go suicidal with it on brave bird. I think only bar a crit on drain punch or the rare choice band set, Conk has never outright beat Skarmory for me, at worse they both go down.
The thing is, Conkeldurr isn't coming in against Skarmory. When you're attempting to counter/check something, you have to come in on it. Alexwolf summed it up pretty well; you'll stop the rampage for a short time at the cost of half of your Skarmory's HP. Gliscor is honestly a much better check to Conk then Skarmory or other common physical walls, as most are steels and vulnerable to that Fighting STAB. However, the only scor that really beats out conkeldurr is sub/protect/toxic, others will just be 2hkod/3hkod by payback without really denting it.I don't consider a 2-3 HKO particularly ownage. You can phaze it out the first 2 times it comes in, and if need be you can go suicidal with it on brave bird. I think only bar a crit on drain punch or the rare choice band set, Conk has never outright beat Skarmory for me, at worse they both go down.