Creative / Underrated Sets Thread (Read the thread, NO SHITTY GIMMICKS)

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Dec 13, 2012.

  1. Tobes

    Tobes Have you ever blasted off at the speed of light?
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    Ok let's try this again.

    Standard and common sets are generally effective. After all, that's why they're common and standard. But sometimes a less-common set can be effective. In fact, brand-new sets can be quite effective as well. This thread is for new and creative movesets that can be quite effective, as well as old movesets that have fallen out of favor but have become quite effective in the OU metagame.


    What is a new and creative, good moveset?
    • It successfully pulls off a role, and is not strictly outclassed by others.
    • It takes advantage of metagame trends.
    • It has had some success. Post replays / logs to strengthen your case.
    Multiple replays are now required for new and creative sets.


    What is an underrated, good moveset?
    • It is an existing set that for whatever reason isn't common.
    • Its use is meant to prey on specific facets of the metagame.
    • It might be able to surprise and demolish Pokemon that normally counter the usual sets, but does not become a gimmick in order to do so.
    If you post a shitty gimmick, your post will be deleted and infracted, NO EXCEPTIONS.



    What are some things that constitute a shitty gimmick?
    • Using a Pokemon that has no business being used in OU, for the sake of using it in OU.
    • Movesets that are inferior and ineffective compared to existing movesets, or use an obscure move for the sake of hitting an even more obscure check or counter.
    • Movesets that are utterly impractacle or are horribly outclassed by another Pokemon.
    • This is an OU thread. Don't post some Lugia set.
    A shitty gimmick is not limited to the above, though. To quote Potter Stewart, "I know it when I see it."

    Creative and Effective Sets (open)

    [​IMG]
    Exeggutor @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Harvest
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Psyshock
    - Hidden Power Fire
    - Substitute
    - Stun Spore


    Underrated and Effective Sets (open)

    [​IMG]
    Mew @ Leftovers
    Trait: Synchronize
    EVs: 252 HP / 108 Spd / 148 Def
    Bold Nature
    - Taunt
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Psychic / Ice beam
    - Roost


    Alright, have at it.
  2. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex This game sucks. Ban everything and it might not.

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    [​IMG]
    Mew @ Leftovers
    Trait: Synchronize
    EVs: 252 HP / 108 Spd / 148 Def
    Bold Nature
    - Taunt
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Psychic / Ice beam
    - Roost

    With Genesect getting the boot from OU and stall teams getting a new leg to stand on, the standard Stallbreaker Mew has been pretty effective for me. Mew is hell to deal with for most stall teams, who often have no way to deal with it other than hoping to get 2 layers of Toxic Spikes before it comes in. It also deals really well with sand teams, who frequently carry Tyranitar, Scizor, and Terrakion, all of which fear getting burned. The choice between Psychic and Ice beam comes down to whether you want to hit Landorus-T and dragons or if you want a guaranteed 1hko on Breloom and a way to deal with Conkeldurr. I generally prefer Ice beam since Breloom is 2hko'd anyway and is never going to switch in on mew, and Conkeldurr isn't particularly common.
  3. jaredz99

    jaredz99

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    Alright, this might get called out but it is NOT a gimmick, it works.

    [​IMG]
    Walrein @ Leftovers
    Trait: Ice Body
    EVs: 232 HP / 252 Def / 24 SDef
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Protect
    - Substitute
    - Toxic/Roar
    - Blizzard/Surf

    This is the legendary Stallrein, brought back from the 4th generation. The general idea of the set comes from here. Basically, as long as hail is up, Walrein recovers 12.5% of its health per turn. So if you use substitute, and then you protect, then 12.5 + 12.5 = 25, and you've exactly recouped the amount of health you used to set up the substitute. So theoretically, unless the weather changes, you get phazed, or you get taunted, this Sub/Protect/Sub/Protect cycle can last for up to 32 turns, while wearing the opponent down with hail damage and other residual effects. This strategy works best when you spread toxic around or set up toxic spikes. More in-depth discussion of the strategy is done in the link, which I encourage you to read.

    So, why is this useful now? Well, Walrein takes advantage of the incredibly offensive nature of the metagame. That's right, Walrein prefers to fight against offensive teams because these teams generally don't carry leftovers, recovery moves, or clerics, so they are extra-vulnerable to being worn down by residual damage. As soon as you win the weather war, sand offense, rain offense, or weatherless Deo-D heavy offense goes down pretty quickly. So here's how this works: as long as Walrein takes less than 75% from any particular hit, and it can switch in cleanly, it can set up a substitute and go to work. Here's some examples of things that do less than 75% to Walrein:

    Show Hide

    Heatran (OU Choice Specs) HP Grass 63.96 - 75.41%
    Virizion (OU Work Up [Life Orb]) Close Combat 63.24 - 75.17%
    Zapdos (OU Physically Defensive) Thunderbolt 63 - 74.46%
    Tornadus (OU Hurricane [Life Orb]) Hurricane 63.24 - 74.46%
    Tyranitar (OU Choice Scarf) Stone Edge 61.57 - 73.03%
    Dragonite (OU Choice Band) Outrage 60.85 - 71.59% << particularly useful, as you can come in after he's killed somebody
    Genesect (OU All-out Attacker [Expert Belt]) Thunderbolt 59.66 - 70.4%
    Feraligatr (OU Swords Dance [Torrent]) Superpower 59.66 - 70.16%
    Latios (OU Choice [Choice Scarf]) Draco Meteor 58.23 - 68.73%
    Mamoswine (OU Physical Attacker [Life Orb]) Stone Edge 57.75 - 68.25%
    Gyarados (OU Offensive Dragon Dance) Stone Edge 55.84 - 66.34%
    Salamence (OU Dragon Dance [Life Orb]) Outrage 52.98 - 62.76%
    Haxorus (OU Double Dance [Draco Plate]) Outrage 52.26 - 61.57%
    Rotom-W (OU Bulky Attacker) Volt Switch 50.59 - 60.14% << also rather useful
    Ferrothorn (OU Standard) Power Whip 44.86 - 53.46%
    Dugtrio (OU Revenge Killer [Life Orb]) Stone Edge 38.42 - 45.34%
    Latios (OU Calm Mind) Dragon Pulse 37.47 - 44.39%
    Latias (OU Physically Defensive Calm Mind) Dragon Pulse 26.73 - 31.74%
    Dragonite (OU Substitute + Dragon Dance) Dragon Claw 20.28 - 24.34%
    Politoed (OU Choice Scarf) Hydro Pump 19.33 - 22.91%

    All of these taken from Honko's calculator.
    Needless to say, this thing does not go down easily. I can provide many replays attesting to its effectiveness. In addition, I hit the Dark Horse reqs and the Defense of the Titans reqs utilizing a hail stall team whose primary goal was to spread Toxic and set this monster up. So yeah, I'd put it up for "Underrated and Effective".

    Edit: Adding replays per request.

    Show Hide

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou5980085 ...Not a good battle, but: stalls out a Latias (would have set up if I was smart enough to Protect), then beats Ferro 1v1 (you can wait for a Power Whip miss or PP stall it if you don't get a crit like I did), then scouts a Scizor

    I've got a final atm but I'll post some more when I get the chance...probably this weekend since I'm flying home tomorrow :)
  4. Tobes

    Tobes Have you ever blasted off at the speed of light?
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    I'd like to see some replays of that, mostly because a chunk of the threats you listed aren't exactly common. Additionally hail is arguably one of the harder weathers to keep, unlike in DPP where you only had to contend with Tyranitar or Hippowdon. The set seems solid in theory but I'd just like a little convincing.
  5. futuresuperstar

    futuresuperstar

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    Pretty much taking this from the success I've had on my own team. Great creative set that aids in spreading paralysis, and it's one of the few paralysis users that ISN'T weak to Ice, Ghost, Dark, Bug, and Earthquake attacks. Most common T-Wave / Stun Spore users are either Grass-typed, Electric-typed, Dragon-typed, or Psychic-typed. As such, they are often Pursuit-bait or weak to common priority like Ice Shard. Not this guy, who resists most priority.

    [pimg]130[/pimg]
    Gyarados @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    ~ Substitute
    ~ Thunder Wave
    ~ Waterfall
    ~ Stone Edge

    Listen up--this thing is an absolute behemoth. Whether it's spreading paralysis or just outright walling threats such as Keldeo, Politoed, and Heatran, it's a great defensive support set. It resists the STAB attacks of several premier Pokemon, including the aforementioned Keldeo, Infernape, and Scizor, crippling all of them. With Intimidate, it can screw with most physical attackers, set up a substitute, paralyze the switch-in, and then go to work. With Waterfall and Stone Edge, this set is only resisted by Keldeo--who hates paralysis--Toxicroak, Breloom (who you can break through with a few Waterfalls), Empoleon (who also hates paralysis), and Ferrothorn (off the top of my head). With Waterfall's 20% flinch rate and Thunder Wave's paralysis, you can actually set up a bit of parahax, as well. Substitute prevents toxic from standard Politoed, burns from Rotom-W switch-ins, sleep from Breloom switch-ins, and Trick, which would otherwise screw with this set.

    The given EVs give Gyarados tremendous bulk while allowing it to switch into Stealth Rock as many times as possible, maximum attack to do its damage, and a few speed EVs to set up a substitute other Gyarados (and there's nothing else that 8 EVs really help with more than speed). The substitutes simply do not want to break--they can take Fire Blasts from Heatran, Scalds/Hydro Pumps from Starmie, Politoed, Suicune, Milotic, Jellicent, and other bulky waters, and even Close Combats or some other neutral attacks, giving you plenty of time to recover HP and spread more paralysis. Most offensive threats that could break through and take a Waterfall or Stone Edge cannot afford to be paralyzed.

    The important thing to note is that this set really screws with opposing weather as well. If your opponent is using rain, it powers up your own Waterfall while STILL not allowing opposing Scalds/Surfs to break your substitutes. With a boosted Waterfall, it makes you that much more threatening, especially with parahax on your side a good ~40% of the time. It also allows you to recover with Leftovers after using Substitute. All Politoed can really do is use Hidden Power Electric--which none run--or Perish Song, which still allows you to paralyze something, get a hit in, recover some HP from your substitute for 2 turns, and switch out. Toxic and Hypnosis and Scald are all blocked by Subs. Opposing sun teams, while weakening Waterfall, typically hate Stone Edge, and most of the offensive theats on sun teams have issues breaking Gyarados' substitute without risking paralysis to their potent sweepers. Ninetails can outrun you with Toxic / Hypnosis, however, so keep that in mind. But it can't switch in to anything on this set mid-game. Opposing sand, while negating Leftovers recovery, typically hates Waterfalls, and Tyranitar / Hippowdon / Terrakion / Landorus / Gliscor all are screwed with a combination of substitute, paralysis, and Waterfall. Landorus-T U-turns can't break your substitute, especially after Intimidate, and you can stall out Tyranitar's Stone Edge with a combination of 80% accuracy and substitute if absolutely necessary. Most steel types can't stand paralysis either.
    Creative likes this.
  6. EdgeHead

    EdgeHead

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    [​IMG]

    Moltres @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Rash Nature
    - Hurricane
    - Fire Blast
    - HP Ground
    - U-Turn

    I'm basing this on my own experience, because I love this guy. Moltres in OU sounds like a laughable concept, double stealth rock weakness, poor stat distribution, fire type that lacks the speed to do any serious sweeping with common weaknesses to water, rock, and electric. But it has a niche as a Rain wallbreaker that makes it a threat that can do serious damage to unprepared teams.

    Obviously the main selling point is Hurricane, a move shared by Tornadus-T and Volcarona. So what sets it apart? Hurricane hits much harder than Tornadus-T's does, so much so that it threatens to 2HKO defensive steel types like Heatran and Jirachi if they haven't invested heavily in special defense, and there's always a chance even a specially defensive one will get confused. Decent physical defense means it isn't forced out by Mamoswine, and it resists Scizor's bullet punch. And you have a strong fire move which will toast Ferrothorn even through rain. And unlike Volcarona, it isn't hit by spikes/toxic spikes nor is it trapped by Dugtrio. And again with specs, it has much more immediate power.

    It may seem like more trouble that it's worth, but having a Pokemon on a rain team that can fire off powerful Hurricanes and threaten all the fire-weak pokemon that give rain teams trouble is a huge asset. Not to mention Moltres really hurts opposing sun teams with its absurdly powerful fire blast and resistances to fire and grass. You need spin support, Tentacruel comes to mind since Moltres can come in on its ground weakness. You also need T-Tar out of the way, and speedier pokemon like Terrakion, the Latis, and Keldeo will force you out after you've taken something out. But an unprepared team can easily lose two or three pokemon to Moltres's Hurricane alone, so if you're running a Rain team but feel like you don't have quite enough power to break through those defensive cores, considering giving it a whirl.
  7. chuavechito

    chuavechito

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    [​IMG]
    Gothitelle
    Gender: Male
    Item: Leftovers
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    Nature: Calm (+SpD -Atk)
    EVs: 252 HP - 208 SpD - 48 Spe
    - Psyshock
    - Calm Mind
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk


    Im using Gothitelle in pretty much every team I make. Is so ridiculous overpowered and underrated that makes me sick.

    While RestTalk can be considered a hax-ish strategy in most pokemons because of the 1/3 chance of doing nothing, RestTalk in Shadow Tag Gothitelle is simply retarded. As long as you have enough EVs/Boosts to avoid a 3HKO, they are dead, and the bast majority of SpA attackers cant 3HKO you.

    Examples of pokemons that can be traped and killed:
    - Politoed (27.4% usage)
    - Latios (13.6% usage) - Situationaly
    - Heatran (12.8% usage) - Non Roar build, 72% of them dont use it.
    - Starmie (10.9% usage)
    - Latias (9.5% usage)
    - Tentacruel (8.9% usage)
    - Ninetales (8.6% usage)
    - Gliscor (8.2% usage) - Non SDance build, 76% of them dont use it.
    - Jellicent (6.3% usage)
    - Blissey (4.9% usage) - Non Sesmic Toss build, 50% of them dont use it.

    Psyshock is the best offensive tool because Gothitelle is supposed to switch against SpA based pokemons, who often have either Calm Mind or high SpD. Because of this hitting right to their Def is the best offensive way to go.

    The plan is simple: Switch + Trap, CM until you need to Rest, RestTalk until they are dead and either switch out or stay and try to damage as much as possible.

    That 48 Spe is the minimum needed to outspeed Politoed, who is the most common pokemon that can be easily traped and killed. Because of this, this build is just sick in Sun and Sandstorm teams, it can single handedly win you a weather war.

    208 Def is another option, specially effective with Hidden Power Dragon or Fight, because, after you trap and kill, you are not forced to switch out and can stay and damage as much as possible, killing 1/2 other pokemons in the process.

    Mail is also another option, if you can predict a Trick you basically rape them. However, the lack of Leftovers means you wont be able to trap and kill some stuff like Ninetales unless you are lucky.


    Replay 1: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou6002809

    Show Hide
    He isnt the best player in the world but you can see how Gothitelle works when I traped and killed both Jellicent and Lanturn. Switch in, resist hit, set up, kill, switch out at full HP.


    Replay 2: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou6021631

    Show Hide
    Again, you can see how this works when I took down Gastrodon for free. Milotic was next, I was going to PP stall the Recovery and BRN was going to do the rest, but he left when he realized that :( I guess nobody wants to play +100 turns games lol.


    Replay 3: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou6022891

    Show Hide
    Switched into Esperon, who was a major threat to the team (Sableye + Azelf), traped and killed for free, then I could inflict some dmg or switch out. I decided to switch out because he had a Tentacruel there waiting to be traped and killed. I could stay and hit at +6 later, but he forfited to my +6 Scizor so I didnt had the chance to show that off.
  8. Tobes

    Tobes Have you ever blasted off at the speed of light?
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    Multiple replays are now required for new and creative movesets.

    futuresuperstar, your description of the set is very unconvincing (for example, citing neutral coverage as if it's important, especially with an inaccurate move with 8 PP). Please provide some convincing replays.

    chauvechito, while at the moment that set looks like it has potential, you neglect some key factors (Dark-types, what if Volcarona just sets up on you before you get enough CM boosts, what happens after you kill something, etc.), so I'll require some replays as well. Against opponents who don't use things like Scrafty... Preferably in English.
  9. chuavechito

    chuavechito

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    Cool :)

    I did not neglect Dark-types. Since that build is to switch in and trap, you are not going to switch into a Dark so the fact that you cant hit them is irrelevant. If you want to set up and try to sweep you will need the other variant I mentioned:

    Them sending a Dark enters in the "you are forced to switch out" concept I mentioned. The only 2 darks in the tier are TTar and Hydreigon, and both have huge Atk so no point sending out Gothitelle against them. HP Fight can 1HKO both while HP Dragon can 1HKO Hydreigon. They both have nice coverage over the current tier to have it as the only attacking move.

    Volcarona is not the best example tbh. STAB Bug is a lot to handle. I dont know why I add'd that. I will probably edit that out.

    I clearly stated:

    Sure. I dont usually save games, so I loaded PO with the first team with Gothitelle I had, played a game and got a sweep out of her lol. I will probably play some games on pokemon showdown soon to edit that.

    I will be adding replays as soon as I get them.
  10. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal Intelligence is a curse.
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    I don't see why you need sleep talk on the set. It should be bulky enough with enough CM boost to stall out 2 rounds anyway and the additional coverage is much better than the alternative of sleep talk. I would pair it with TBolt, since most Dark types ever used in OU are Physical anyway and I would advise from staying in with Goth (TTar physical; Scizor's Pursuit physical, rare Scrafty Physical, Hydregion is hard-core walled and will either U-turn out anyway or simply doesn't pack the Dark Pulse, which isn't always carried on Hydregion anyway). You could also try HP Fire for hitting Sciz, but TBolt should have better coverage and Jolly Scizor should outspeed you anyway so don't stay on that for a U-turn regardless.

    Volcarona is a bitch and Goth loses to it unless its scarfed trick, and thats if it traps it BEFORE it sets up a boost; which case it loses everytime '-'.

    I personally hate Goth, that set in peticular, but w/e. GL
  11. Remedy

    Remedy Vega Fabio de Cerna
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    I was using Scarf Trick and CM set with Gothitelle to trap SR setters.

    The issue is that I had to invest A LOT in Def to tank U-Turn from Genesects, now that it's gone, to me a boosting set with Gothitelle can shine.
    However here, you can't trap Tyranitar, and a trapper is especially useful to kill other weather introducers. You get also walled easily here, you can't run only one attacking move in my opinion.

    Maybe, change at least Sleep Talk to something like HP Fight ?
  12. chuavechito

    chuavechito

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    W/o Sleep Talk you cant set up on people who can 4HKO you. You basically become something that can only trap stuff that cant 5HKO you. Notable examples are Starmie, Shadow Ball Espeon and Ninetales.

    You cant trap and kill TTar, no mather what attacking move you have (you can only do so if he is a lead, droped SR on you and you switched with into with a Trick build). I said it helps the weather war for Sandstorm and Sun teams mostly, because, in Sandstorm you can kill both Ninetales and Politoed, while in Sun you can kill Politoed, who represents 70%ish of your weather wars.
  13. CactusCacti

    CactusCacti

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    I really find this Gothitelle set to be rather fantastic but the low coverage to rely on single move is bit so so.

    Have you tried out going classic and just chestorest the recovery? I'd imagine it to work for setting up with the calm minds if timed properly. That way you could still recover and keep a move slot open while setting up them calm minds.
  14. HackerKing

    HackerKing

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    Can you comment on the suggested teammates for the Gothitelle set?
  15. chuavechito

    chuavechito

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    Actually, that sounds like a good idea. I will test that out. The only problem I see would be the fact that you can only do this combo once, and is not rare that you would want to send out Goth twice.

    I think 2 attacking moves wont help this problem BUT Substitute and a HP (unless I really want to risk been blocked by a Dark) could put a major show on them.

    Holy shit, if the Evasion clause gets removed (I saw that it may be put into suspect voting) this set becomes ridiculous rofl. "So you have a Politoed there? thats cute... I will just send out this thing and win the game".

    Any Sun or Sandstorm team would benefit from her. Also, any VoltTurn. Im currently playing a team with a fast SR suicide lead (Azelf), a TWave-Roost Dragonite, 2 Physical walls and 2 Special walls (one of them been Goth).
  16. dragonuser

    dragonuser Today, tomorrow, and always with a frozen heart
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    I think a Dugtrio would make a good partner for that Gothitelle set. Tyranitar is pretty much the most popular Dark-Type in OU, and since Dark-Types hard wall that set it would be helpful to have a trapper for those too. This also gives you a fun double trapper core that can help support your team even more.
  17. EdgeHead

    EdgeHead

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    Such a shame it can't learn baton pass...

    Fighting types are probably gonna be the best partners, Keldeo in particular certainly appreciates The Latis, Jellicent, and Starmie out of the way, and it easily deals with Tyranitar and most Hydreigon.
  18. Groudon ex

    Groudon ex

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    I've used Kabutops for a long time now, and I adore it. As you mentioned it kind of needs rain to be threatening, which is why I'd suggest slashing Rain Dance somewhere on that set. It would give Kabutops a chance of a lategame sweep against a non-rain team, so that it doesn't become dead weight. Extremely minor, but a tiny change to 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spd will allow you to outspeed Scarf Garchomp in the rain.
  19. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Kabutops is one of my favorite Anti Weather mons. My other favorite is definitely Kingdra. If not for Ferrothorn, it would kill everything in the game with its ChestoRest set, but I digress.

    Kabutops is really really good, but does it need that priority? SS Waterfall should be fast enough to catch just about everything at max speed, right?
  20. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Kabotops has 4MSS. Because rain isn't guaranteed, since the Swift Swim + Drizzle ban is up, Kabotops needs the priority to be useful outside of rain, where its speed is rather mediocre. Kabotops cannot take hits against most offensive teams, either, so it becomes difficult to spin without massive set up. As a result, I find that Kabotops really needs a way to force people out, and Aqua Jet is perfect for the job.
  21. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    Underrated and Effective set

    [​IMG]@Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 192 hp / 64 def / 252 spe
    Timid nature
    ~Substitute
    ~Roost
    ~Discharge / Thunderbolt
    ~Toxic / Heat wave / Hidden Power [Ice]

    Ok, let's get started. I have been laddering a while inside Pokemon Online and i found a guy using this set. When played correctly and with a nice support from other pokes, Zapdos can become really really really annoying becase he can abuse his nice speed and pressure to pp stall opponents that are slower than them. Substitute and roost are two moves that MUST be there for this set to work, while you can choose the combinatios of Thunderbolt + Toxic or Discharge + Hidden power ice. I prefer the discharge one because of faster pokemons, having the capability of paralysing while getting some good damage is awesome. Moreover, Zapdos is very bulky and can take a Scarf hydro pump from keldeo and discharge the pony and, if you are lucky, get the parahax. The problem with this set are chansey and blissey, so banded tyranitar is an awesome partner to this guy. Also specially defensive Jirachi can take advantage of the paralysis while taking on specs / scarf / LO draco meteors from Latios directed to Zapdos.

    The HP EVs reach a Substitute and a Leftovers number, and the rest go into Defense to allow Zapdos to tank neutral or resisted physical attacks easier. The 252 spe evs are there to outspeed as much things as possible.
  22. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Angel of mercy, how did you find me?
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    Dual Screener Starmie
    oh, what a Truckload of support

    [​IMG]
    Starmie @ Light Clay
    Timid, 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Spe
    Light Screen / Reflect / Hydro Pump / Rapid Spin

    What does Starmie have over Espeon or Latias that makes it a competent Screener? Well its high speed and good typing as well as its ability to spin makes it a great supporter of nearly any team. As the second fastest Dual Screener in the game, the point of this set is to come in, set screens before your opponent can react, all the while tanking hits from many of the tier's most common attackers, and then switch to a teammate that will cause havoc. Setting screens fast to support teammembers is what this set aims to do- and, with 40 evs dumped into SpA, it can hit decently hard as well. Starmie has the stats and bulk to do this, too- 216 Spe ensures you outspeed every positive nature 110 Base speed pokemon, while 252 HP gives you well rounded bulk. Starmie's typing gives it a lot of time to set up too- as it can wall the common Scarf Keldeo, Scarf Terrakion, and even Scarf Garchomp well. After screens, it gets even bulkier, and can take a variety of hits for your team:

    252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie through Reflect: 112-132 (34.56 - 40.74%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie through Reflect: 149-176 (45.98 - 54.32%) -- 53.13% chance to 2HKO
    252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Starmie through Light Screen: 56-66 (17.28 - 20.37%) -- possible 5HKO
    4+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie through Reflect: 141-166 (43.51 - 51.23%) -- 5.08% chance to 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Starmie through Light Screen: 131-154 (40.43 - 47.53%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


    With Hydro Pump, you can hit decently hard, even outside of Rain. I used it mainly for the quick power it had, but anything from Psyshock to Ice Beam to Scald can be used instead. The last slot of for spinning- which is of course another way Starmie can support its teammates. If you want Starmie to come in more and set up, Recover can be used over Rapid Spin, or Hydro Pump.



    REPLAYS
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou6164221
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou6167209
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou6168006
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou6169067
  23. TheWaddleDeeKing

    TheWaddleDeeKing

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
    51
    I posted this in the other underrated but effective thread before it was closed down. I still love and use this set when I need it, it's pretty effective.

    LINKS (neither of these are exceptional representations, especially the first. I'll attempt to get more if I can):
    Match 1
    Match 2
    Show Hide
    Match 1: this ENTIRE MATCH was awful. Honestly. I'm putting it here to showcase how the occa berry "saved me", though in all honesty, switching Metagross into the Dragonite was stupid in the first place, when Shaymin had HP Ice. (I would have survived that Fire Punch regardless). Using agility on Metagross was stupid too, among other things. Ugh.
    Match 2: A better representation. I could have gotten that KO on his +2 Venusaur and have a very good possible chance to Mach Punch Breloom my way through his team if I woke up. It's how these things go, however.




  24. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    882
    [​IMG]
    Togekiss @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 80 SpA / 176 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Nasty Plot
    - Air Slash
    - Aura Sphere / Heal Bell
    - Roost

    One of the main reasons as to why Togekiss isn't used very much in the current OU metagame is that Jirachi is simply really good and absolutely everywhere, due to its ability to take Draco Meteors, Hurricanes from Tornadus-T, and the extra utility provided through setting up Stealth Rock for a team. Para-flinching is inherently a risky strategy, but Jirachi can use it while filling a number of other defensive and supportive roles for a team, and importantly, isn't weak to Stealth Rock, making it the more popular choice.

    However, I've recently been using Jirachi and Togekiss as a para-flinching combination, and I think that's where Togekiss's strengths lie in this metagame, as it can take on Pokemon that Jirachi struggles to break through with little hassle. From an offensive standpoint, Togekiss's Air Slash is much more powerful and has better coverage than Jirachi's Iron Head, especially with some modest SpA investment. Furthermore, Aura Sphere does a good job at handling threats such as Heatran and Ferrothorn, which Jirachi would not be able to break past, while still destroying Tyranitar. Defensively, Togekiss can also switch into Choiced Earthquakes from the likes of Garchomp and Dragonite, and does a pretty good job at handling Ghost types such as Gengar, Jellicent and Sableye, that are immune to Jirachi's Body Slam (Heal Bell makes dealing with these two less annoying) With Jirachi providing stellar Paralysis support on its own, Togekiss can afford to go on the offensive a little more, using the power and coverage of its Air Slash to get past opponents with as few flinches as possible.

    Calcs (open)

    +2 80 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 204-240 (53.12 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers

    +2 80 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 248-292 (43.75 - 51.98%)
    +2 80 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 248-292 (70.45 - 82.95%)

    252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 169-199 (45.18 - 53.2%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 225-265 (60.16 - 70.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 80 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 241-285 (70.26 - 83.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 192-226 (51.33 - 60.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    80 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 154-182 (47.67 - 56.34%) -- 81.64% chance to 2HKO
    +2 80 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 224-264 (58.18 - 68.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    80 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 117-138 (32.68 - 38.54%) -- 99.07% chance to 3HKO


    Many of the threats that deal well with Jirachi, such as Ferrothorn and Politoed, either let Togekiss set up on them (especially if Heal Bell is used) or are simply more susceptible to Togekiss's attacks. Togekiss is also about as bulky as Jirachi with comparative investment, meaning it can set up against almost any slow opponent that lacks a super effective move, and many that do. The Speed EVs and nature let Togekiss outpace and OHKO Jolly Breloom with unboosted Air Slash, which is definitely worth the slight drop in SpA compared to the on-site set. Overall, I've found that the underrated Togekiss works well as an offensive complement to Jirachi, instead of a direct counterpart, providing more momentum and continuing the para-flinching strategy against a wider range of opponents.
    Wumbo in Chains likes this.
  25. kalamadude

    kalamadude

    Joined:
    May 19, 2010
    Messages:
    204
    [​IMG]
    Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Sleep Talk / Stealth Rock / Aqua Tail
    - Dragon Tail
    - Rest

    I've been messing around with this defensive Garchomp set lately on a rain stall team and I'm pretty happy with it so far. I'm not a fantastic player, so I got the EVs from the Quality Control page for BW2 Chomp (I believe from a defensive Garchomp set Lavos was talking about). Any tips on the EVs would actually be really appreciated :/

    What I did find, however, was that the lack of recovery when using Rocky Helmet over Leftovers made him easy to wear down, which was very bad news because he was a very important glue member of my stall team (my only good answer to Toxicroak, Tentacruel, or Rainrachi).

    With Rest, he can come back from near death to cause more trouble. As of BW2, Chomp can now run Sleep Talk alongside Rough Skin, which makes this set just so much better. Dragon Tail no longer has negative priority and most people don't seem to expect it to be there at all. Plus Rest gives him pseudo status immunity. You no longer have to be nervous about switching into Lava Plume or even Scald since you can just Rest it off if a burn lands and be in an even better position - positive priority Dtail!

    People underestimate the ridiculous damage Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin does. It is so tremendously useful for stall. I don't have a ghost on my team, so rapid spinners were obnoxious. Now, if I predict it right (usually not too hard - they aren't afraid to use it since I have no ghost type), they shave off an instant 30% of their health. WHAT. THAT'S INSANE. THAT CAN'T POSSIBLY BE RIGHT. Yes. Thirty percent. No more Jirachi trying to hax the team to death. He also can make a fun sacrifice play for a rampaging physical attacker. Life Orb + a single rough skin hit fricken hurts.

    Other options are Stealth Rock (though I have mine on Bronzong) and Aqua Tail to hit his counters (Gliscor and Lando-T mainly). But why bother when you can just Dtail?

    Not to mention that he still has a decent offensive presence. And no one expects defensive Chomp, so stack those hazards and put him in the first time and you're guaranteed to get at least one free Dragon Tail hit. This guy is a serious monster and is an incredibly versatile addition to any stall team. C&C greatly appreciated :)


    Edit: Oh shoot, just noticed the replay requirement. Guess that gives me an excuse to keep laddering and see if I can showcase him :/

    REPLAYS:
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou6189486 Beginning turn 5 with an (unnecessary) sacrifice play later on :P
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou6190318 Right at the beginning, then a few turns in to take out a Sandslash using Rapid Spin at >25 HP :D
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou6252245 The only line of defense against Jirachi

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