Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion

[Joeyboy]

Broken or "too good" clicks to me when that one Deo-S set is destroying entire playstyles without anything special in the last 5 slots.

Sorry, can you explain this a little more? I don't see what you're saying? Again sorry :) but you can't be saying that DS+5 sweepers 'destroys' play styles surely. Also the last five slots matter quite a lot; like Eggberts recent RMT shows. You need the offensive synergy in those 5 sweepers and I would argue heavily that it's the 5 sweepers who 'break' the play style not Deoxys.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Fluffy, you can't Toxic stall Scizor, while it will U-Turn and take a big portion of Deoxys-D's health, and as I said before, Deoxys-S can just switch out and be brough back in later when Deoxys-D isnt out where it can still perform his job. Yes, you can snatch Quiver dance,but you have no attacking moves and any steel type can just start attacking you away. And you cant Toxic stall if you're running Toxic/Snatch/Light Screen/Reflect because you have no means of recovery and dropping any one of those moves makes your team much more suspectible to losing. Yeah, you can Snatch dragon dances, but you cant attack, and if the boosting Pokemon makes a sub, you cant toxic it, and Snatching means youd need good prediction, in which case a well timed taunt forces Deoxys-D out. Choice Band Scizor U-turns out to Choice Band Nite and ko's. Deoxys-S doesnt have to stay in on Deoxys-D. The only way you're beating Deoxys-S is if you have Deoxys-D in, meaning the next chance Deoxys-S gets in, Deoxys-D cant switch in on Taunt, because he'll be forced out and give a free turn. Rotom-W and Deoxys-S have bad Hp yes, but they CAN ATTACK BACK. Not to mention Trick completely screws over Deoxys-D.
and this is assuming Deoxys-S isnt the Attacking set, because it can start Shadow Ball spamming. If Deoxys-D isnt running a screen set, all it can do is stall, which is easy to beat. Snatching is situational, a misprediction will basically have made you waste a turn. All Deoxys-D did was force out Deoxys-S who can come back in later. Deoxys-S with Magic Coat is better at beating Deoxys-S than Deoxys-D with Magic Coat.

I know you can't Toxic Stall Scizor, I said Steels and Poison types are going to give it problems and Volcarona and Scizor in particular. However, it stops Screens and hazards and you hopefully have other things to stop Scizor/Rotom spamming, Blissey might be a possibility (roast Scizor and wall Rotom). Trick will screw Deoxys up royally as well but you obviously should try to avoid that. Trick screws over a lot of walls and it's not like Deoxys is the only poke that gets beeped by that.

That isn't the set I used (really, no Recover? Recover is necessity!). My set was Snatch/Magic Coat/Recover/Toxic. Snatch can grab screens from the opponent's Deoxys (I hadn't been sure of that). And yes they can switch out. But did you not see the type of power it takes to even 1-2 hit ko Deoxys? The only sure ones are critical hits from banded hitters, Gengar, Volcarona, Scizor, Escavilier, Choice Band Tyranitar (who can be beaten if it predicts Deoxys will run and uses Pursuit instead of Crunch!), etc. Haxorus/Dragonite/Salamence NEED to be Choice Banded to even 2 hit ko with Outrage (and Deoxys will Recover) and can snatch Dragon/Swords Dance. Dragon Dance will especially be painful for them since Deoxys can now outspeed and Recover/Toxic/Snatch them to death. The only reliable killers therefore are very badly (for Deoxys) timed critical hits from the banded dragons, but more likely Volcarona, Scizor, Escavilier, and Gengar. That's what's a team for and why Deoxys-D isn't fighting by itself. And if you can hazard/snatch screens/force Deoxys out, you've accomplished what you've set out to do because it'll be tricky to come back in.

A lot of choice bands on the opponent's team means heavy Skarmory walling who takes those Choiced Dragon and Bug attacks like a champ. Scizor/Rotom spam will be irritating but Blissey can take that on. Will definitely not like being Tricked but walls Rotom and can roast Scizor as well as spread status (Thunderwave since Toxic is already covered and Deoxys-D takes Conkledur. Thunderwave will really wreck sweepers). Actually, Blissey/DeoxysD/Skarmory seems like a very solid defense and irritating to crack through, especially with Blissey able to pass Wishes as well. Or use Heal Bell and remove status should it ever manage to somehow land on Deoxys.

Unless you're at low hp, Deoxys-D doesn't NEED prediction to use Snatch since against things like Dragonite or Haxorus, you're safe to Snatch for Dragon/Swords Dance (however, you do need to watch out for Haxorus Taunt. That will give problems) since they can't 2 hit ko you! Mixed Dragonite with Life Orb can't 2 hit ko you at full health with Draco Meteor+Extremespeed and you get time to recover since mixed Dragonite is slower otherwise! Only a Haxorus Taunt will give problems and Skarmory can deal with that issue quickly. Gengar will hurt but it will reveal itself what type of Gengar it is, if it's Sub/Disable, Life Orb, Scarf, whatever. Deoxys-D also excells in forcing the opponent to tip theirr hand. Yeah Deoxys-D can't attack except by Toxic but it will really mess with those non-steels and wall steels not named Scizor and Escavilier since other steels wouldn't be able to really be able to do anything to Deoxys either except Toxic.

Deoxys-S can Shadow Ball spam all it wants but unless it drops special defense or criticals, Deoxys-S is going to kill itself from Life Orb recoil before cracking you. Deoxys-D could just Recover spam since it does less than half.

 

[Aldaron]

As an update, I'm slowly moving more towards the neutral side from neutral leaning OU.

I'm still not convinced at all that the hazards set or the offensive sets, either individually or combined as "perceived versatile threats," are broken.

What is changing my opinion is my observation of Deoxys-S and screens on Baton Pass teams (not chains though, think wdro-style Gliscor pass in dpp), specifically SmashPass. And what is specifically changing my opinion is not the screens themselves, but the fact that Deoxys-S can switch into battle at anytime (whereas with the hazards set it needs to be early game and with the offensive lo set it needs to be late game), set up an appropriate screen (the anytime is significant, as the rare Prankster + Taunt counters can't be used as effectively), and then switch out again to set up later for another Smasher / BPer.

I've seen bulky Deoxys-S set up screens over 4 times in a battle for a smasher / bper / stat booster. Other screeners do not have the combination of near guaranteed set up potential + bulk for repeated attempts (as 396 speed is enough to set up on nearly anything when you can afford to switch it in whenever you want, so you can invest all 510 evs into bulk).

My two cents atm.

 

[Alchemist Fullmetal]

I know you can't Toxic Stall Scizor, I said Steels and Poison types are going to give it problems and Volcarona and Scizor in particular. However, it stops Screens and hazards and you hopefully have other things to stop Scizor/Rotom spamming, Blissey might be a possibility (roast Scizor and wall Rotom). Trick will screw Deoxys up royally as well but you obviously should try to avoid that. Trick screws over a lot of walls and it's not like Deoxys is the only poke that gets beeped by that.

That isn't the set I used (really, no Recover? Recover is necessity!). My set was Snatch/Magic Coat/Recover/Toxic. Snatch can grab screens from the opponent's Deoxys (I hadn't been sure of that). And yes they can switch out. But did you not see the type of power it takes to even 1-2 hit ko Deoxys? The only sure ones are critical hits from banded hitters, Gengar, Volcarona, Scizor, Escavilier, Choice Band Tyranitar (who can be beaten if it predicts Deoxys will run and uses Pursuit instead of Crunch!), etc. Haxorus/Dragonite/Salamence NEED to be Choice Banded to even 2 hit ko with Outrage (and Deoxys will Recover) and can snatch Dragon/Swords Dance. Dragon Dance will especially be painful for them since Deoxys can now outspeed and Recover/Toxic/Snatch them to death.

And when Scizor U-Turns, you accomplished the goal of of forcing it out, meaning Deoxys-S can come back in without having to worry about being Magic Coat Taunted. Snatch requires prediction and once you use it once,the player will have catched on not bother trying to boost and just attack.Youre also assuming you can snatch screens, and the player will know somethings up if the foe leads with Deoxys-D and switch to something better and bring it out later. Point is, Snatch will only work once because the player will catch on.
"Deoxys-D is in ko range next turn I should recover now"you gave a turn for either a Pokemon to boost, switch out or Deoxys-S to taunt you if its taunt+atack

 

[Fluffy Otters]

And when Scizor U-Turns, you accomplished the goal of of forcing it out, meaning Deoxys-S can come back in without having to worry about being Magic Coat Taunted. Snatch requires prediction and once you use it once,the player will have catched on not bother trying to boost and just attack.Youre also assuming you can snatch screens, and the player will know somethings up if the foe leads with Deoxys-D and switch to something better and bring it out later. Point is, Snatch will only work once because the player will catch on.
"Deoxys-D is in ko range next turn I should recover now"you gave a turn for either a Pokemon to boost, switch out or Deoxys-S to taunt you if its taunt+atack

You yourself had said earlier that Screens can be snatched. I'm going to have to get another person to confirm this or if Snatch would unfortunately not work on screens.

I guess I do see the issue in forcing a switch to Scizor who would U-Turn Deoxys back in however. That would be problematic. The only thing I can really imagine to stop that (if your team even has any room for this) would be either Choice Scarf Magnezone and trap Scizor on a double switch or even better, run Gyrados and play the prediction game with Blissey vrs. Rotom although you have the advantage then since the fast teams that tend to use Deoxys-S tend to hate paralysis, Blissey walls Rotom and is only annoyed by Trick, and Scizor's roasted if it dares come in. Actually...

Interesting hypothetical scenarios. Anyways, moving on. I do see the U-Turn Scizor issue in and of itself.

Snatch might work only once but it will mess with your opponent's mind since it leads to hesitation in stat boosting, especially in nabbing Dragon/Quiver Dances. While Deoxys-D sure as heck shouldn't stay in Volcarona after that (you could potentially stay in but you're tempting fate), it forces them to attack and allows you to bring in something to force it out (Terakion/Gyrados/Whatever) which is potentially an opportunity for you to boost. And Dragons that Outrage CAN'T switch or change moves so unboosted Outrages get Recovered on and Band Outrages get handled by Steel types.

You could be tricky and Snatch a boost right when they think you'll Recover, particularly if it's a tasty Dragon Dance in which case you immediately outspeed them and can Recover ahead of them and start laying Toxic and Skarm wall Outrages. Not much can boost on Deoxys D that wouldn't threaten it out themselves (Scizor, Volc, Esc) or will be stuck when they know they're boosts can be snatched and they can't 2 hit ko you otherwise (Haxorus, Dragonite, Salamemce).

Latios is stuck because of Draco Meteor. As long as you have ~70% hp, you can handle it and Recover because of hp drop.

The ONLY things that can 1-2 hit ko Deoxys are Scizor, Escavilier, Volcarona, Gengar, and Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar if Deoxy's taken damage. Choice Banded Outrages from Haxorus and Dragonite as well but there are reasons to not do those so early on since Skarmory will wall those badly. Specs and Life Orb Draco Meteors if Deoxys has been weakened. But still, it's called switching if you can't survive.

 

[alexwolf]

I don't know what you mean. If Deoxy-S is facing Deoxys-D, I would think it would always lead off with Taunt if it has it. The opportunity to try to cripple Deoxys-D and make it essentially useless is too good to pass up and will win even more time. Wouldn't a Magic Coated Taunt force Deoxy-S to NOT be able to use it's support moves for the length of Taunt or would it for some reason only last a turn? And Deoxys-D drags out important information of whether a pokemon is banded or not because unless it's Life Orb Stab Draco Meteor or Banded Outrage or such, almost no attack is going to do more than 50% to it. It forces things to attack it since boosters (and most pokemon that boost are obvious) get snatched and almost nothing can 2 hit ko naturally.

The thing is that you have to predict every single turn when using magic coat.
If Deoxys-S uses Spikes and you bounce them back he can spam it 'till he gets them.
Also with Snatch if you try and use it while they attack good job you wasted a turn doing nothing.Or if they boost while you attacked congarts they are boosted and ready to fuck your team while you do pitiful damage with whatever move Deo-D is carrying.

Man there is a reason Snatch and Magic Coat are niche and rare moves and this is because they are situational and unreliable at best.

 

[Eggbert]

What is changing my opinion is my observation of Deoxys-S and screens on Baton Pass teams (not chains though, think wdro-style Gliscor pass in dpp), specifically SmashPass. And what is specifically changing my opinion is not the screens themselves, but the fact that Deoxys-S can switch into battle at anytime (whereas with the hazards set it needs to be early game and with the offensive lo set it needs to be late game), set up an appropriate screen (the anytime is significant, as the rare Prankster + Taunt counters can't be used as effectively), and then switch out again to set up later for another Smasher / BPer.

I've seen bulky Deoxys-S set up screens over 4 times in a battle for a smasher / bper / stat booster. Other screeners do not have the combination of near guaranteed set up potential + bulk for repeated attempts (as 396 speed is enough to set up on nearly anything when you can afford to switch it in whenever you want, so you can invest all 510 evs into bulk).

Deoxys is actually one of the "frailest" screeners and it rarely screens more than once against most teams, even stall. Even getting three turns with it is rare, though two is very common. This is because people know to just attack it. Lead with ferro and gyro ball, it won't be setting up again. Lead with u-turn scizor, it won't be setting up again. On the other hand, screeners like Cresselia and Uxie can screen like 4-5 times because of their insane bulk and recovery. If you are letting it screen 4 times I think something is wrong. Remember, this is nothing new. There are plenty of good screeners that can make setting up easy, it's not just deoxys.

Also, Joeyboy is right. You can't just slap on 5 random sweepers, it doesn't work. You won't be able to account for all of the different playstyles and sweepers in the metagame. You can run 5 sweepers weak to scizor and get swept. You can run mons that just get revenged killed by scarf rotom all day. You can run mons that can't set up on status abusers like Jellicent. You can run mons that aren't able to break Quagsire o Blissey and other ridiculous walls. It takes more than just slapping deo-s on. It's just, when used well, a potent playstyle because people aren't prepared to fight against it.

 

[complete legitimacy]

Deoxys is actually one of the "frailest" screeners and it rarely screens more than once against most teams, even stall. Even getting three turns with it is rare, though two is very common. This is because people know to just attack it. Lead with ferro and gyro ball, it won't be setting up again. Lead with u-turn scizor, it won't be setting up again. On the other hand, screeners like Cresselia and Uxie can screen like 4-5 times because of their insane bulk and recovery. If you are letting it screen 4 times I think something is wrong. Remember, this is nothing new. There are plenty of good screeners that can make setting up easy, it's not just deoxys.

However, even though they have bulk, they don't have the speed to avoid being hit ridiculously hard. Is Cresselia or Uxie gonna survive, a Choice Band Scizor's U-Turn? Deoxys will, since it has the speed to put up a Reflect. Cresselia will just die, and Uxie will be revenged by anything even remotely fast. The same thing could be said for a Choice Band Tyranitar's Crunch.

 

[Eggbert]

Actually Cresselia and Uxie can survive both with reflect because they outspeed (I think they can take the u-turn anyway) And those are the most powerful attacks in OU that hit it supereffectively, and with a choice item. Most of the time they can set up easily against weaker attackers, with thunder wave / yawn / ice beam to keep attackers away.

 

[complete legitimacy]

Actually Cresselia and Uxie can survive both with reflect because they outspeed (I think they can take the u-turn anyway) And those are the most powerful attacks in OU that hit it supereffectively, and with a choice item. Most of the time they can set up easily against weaker attackers, with thunder wave / yawn / ice beam to keep attackers away.

Deoxys-S is still superior for its access to Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Taunt. It doesn't really matter if it can only set up screens once. Good Hyper Offense teams will bring out their more frail set-up sweepers out first (Haxorus, Lucario, Infernape), and pack sweepers with some bulk to be played after the screens are gone. This is why things like Scizor, Scarfty, and Cloyster are amazing on these types of teams. They definitely benefit from screens, but doesn't everything? Bulky sweepers don't need screens to set up and do some damage.

 

[Eggbert]

That's not really the point. The point is that there is no way deo is getting screens up 4 times in a game. It rarely gets them both up once. Only really bulky screeners are getting to screen that many times, and even then, it's rare that they will be able to screen that many times. Deo isn't special as a screener, Azelf and Uxie can run the same set minus taunt in Uxie's case (it still has memento!). Deo also isn't running spikes and SR. It only has room for 1 and if you pass up on taunt you will likely get swept by something. Remember these teams don't have defensive cores, they rely only on not being setup on. If you waste time spiking while lucario starts dancing, you are in trouble.

If you are saying that it setting up screens once is enough to be broken, we might as well ban anything decent that learns dual screens. Deo is not the only one who can set them up well!

 

[complete legitimacy]

That's not really the point. The point is that there is no way deo is getting screens up 4 times in a game. It rarely gets them both up once. Only really bulky screeners are getting to screen that many times, and even then, it's rare that they will be able to screen that many times. Deo isn't special as a screener, Azelf and Uxie can run the same set minus taunt in Uxie's case (it still has memento!). Deo also isn't running spikes and SR. It only has room for 1 and if you pass up on taunt you will likely get swept by something. Remember these teams don't have defensive cores, they rely only on not being setup on. If you waste time spiking while lucario starts dancing, you are in trouble.

If you are saying that it setting up screens once is enough to be broken, we might as well ban anything decent that learns dual screens. Deo is not the only one who can set them up well!

What's to stop you from setting up yourself? Reflect won't matter when Dragonite is already at +4. Deoxys can stop the setting up, but Uxie can lower stats that are easily avoided by switching, and Cresselia can what, Toxic it?

In OU, those two Pokemon have one set. Deoxys has three. Even then, you can mix and match with those sets. What if you send a Ferrothorn in? It won't care about Memento. It'll just lay down some hazards. Deoxys can taunt it.

The hazard lead set screws stall. The Dual Screens set screws balance. The LO set screws offense. Although it's not an Excadrill, that screws everything with one set, it makes playstyles unviable with whichever set it chooses. If you guess wrong you're losing a Pokemon or two because of it. If it happens to be the one that wipes the floor with your playstyle, it's gg from there.

 

[Eggbert]

What's to stop you from setting up yourself? Reflect won't matter when Dragonite is already at +4. Deoxys can stop the setting up, but Uxie can lower stats that are easily avoided by switching, and Cresselia can what, Toxic it?

In OU, those two Pokemon have one set. Deoxys has three. Even then, you can mix and match with those sets. What if you send a Ferrothorn in? It won't care about Memento. It'll just lay down some hazards. Deoxys can taunt it.

The hazard lead set screws stall. The Dual Screens set screws balance. The LO set screws offense. Although it's not an Excadrill, that screws everything with one set, it makes playstyles unviable with whichever set it chooses. If you guess wrong you're losing a Pokemon or two because of it. If it happens to be the one that wipes the floor with your playstyle, it's gg from there.

Not really sure what you mean by that...Against dragonite you reflect and then procede to hinder it with whatever support move you have. Uxie's memento + screens means you can set up on a +1 dragonite all day. Ferrothorn can stay in and spike and you can stay in and get 3 setup turns. They have to switch.

They were just examples of other viable screeners. Deoxys can run LO with spikes and it will only get up 1 layer. It can run spikes with screens and get setup on and not setup properly. Hazard leads do not screw stall. Almost every stall team has a spinner and deo will rarely survive for more than 5 turns. Dual screens doesn't screw balance, and even if it did deo isn't the only screener for the millionth time. LO has so many counters. Jirachi walls it, Scizor can pick it off, terrakion can revenge it, Heatran walls it with protect. Bronzong walls it. Most bulky steels that aren't 4x weak to fire wall it (and even then, hp fire isn't on every set!)

Just because it has the ability to tear teams apart doesn't make it broken. Mixmence isn't broken. Reuniclus isn't broken because it can beat stall. Having the upper hand against a play style doesn't make it uber! Ban all stallbreakers! Ban all scarfers!

Here is what makes something broken: Having a near guaranteed chance to make it so a mon cannot be beaten fairly or by anything in the game. IE Garchomp in the sand. It could get past legitimate checks with 1 miss. There was nothing you could do. However for deoxys, what exactly does it do? Set up hazards well? You can spin those or limit them by preparing for it. LO sweeper? Try carrying a check or counter like Jirachi. Dual screens? Have a team that can handle threats for a few turns. Stall is capable. Some offensive carries scarfers for revenging. Having screens up isn't unfair. One because I'm using a whole slot to set them up, and two because mons can still be taken down by legitimate means under screens (also deo isn't the only screener, so you'd have to ban the moves reflect and light screen lol111)

 

[Straw Hat]

Not really sure what you mean by that...Against dragonite you reflect and then procede to hinder it with whatever support move you have. Uxie's memento + screens means you can set up on a +1 dragonite all day. Ferrothorn can stay in and spike and you can stay in and get 3 setup turns. They have to switch.

They were just examples of other viable screeners. Deoxys can run LO with spikes and it will only get up 1 layer. It can run spikes with screens and get setup on and not setup properly. Hazard leads do not screw stall. Almost every stall team has a spinner and deo will rarely survive for more than 5 turns. Dual screens doesn't screw balance, and even if it did deo isn't the only screener for the millionth time. LO has so many counters. Jirachi walls it, Scizor can pick it off, terrakion can revenge it, Heatran walls it with protect. Bronzong walls it. Most bulky steels that aren't 4x weak to fire wall it (and even then, hp fire isn't on every set!)

Just because it has the ability to tear teams apart doesn't make it broken. Mixmence isn't broken. Reuniclus isn't broken because it can beat stall. Having the upper hand against a play style doesn't make it uber! Ban all stallbreakers! Ban all scarfers!

I see Eggbert's point here, especially in the last part. We can't just ban everything just because it beats a certain type of play style. Besides, if a single Pokemon is trolling a play style, that certain play style is bound to have counters. e.x, Ferrothorn beats rain, lets ban it. Wait, every rain team now carries counters to ferrothorn. Deoxys's counters may be few, but they are there, and they are viable.
P.S: I vote Deoxys-S OU

 

[Benny in a Jet]

And for those saying it's Uber due to needing niche counters, I don't believe it's so niche when they work so well outside of it.

 

[tehy]

I run a stall team, and the hazards set does not screw it. Seriously; here's what you do.

Lead with hippo, switch to starmie, kill gengar on the switch-in. Usually rotom-w comes in to force you out;go roserade. If he goes to scizor, put it to sleep, but if he goes to deoxys, switch in starmie and spin.

Thus, one layer or less. For an entire pokemon.

 

[Treadshot A1]

Tehy, that's a crapload of prediction. I mean, it's all well and good to propose one situation that's able to beat Deo S, but that is only one, and let's face it, a good Deo S player won't fall into that trap more than once before they learn of it and don't make that mistake again. Plus, if at anytime you make a prediction and the opponent catches on and uses something else you weren't expecting, then those new Pokemon can fight it out until such time as Deo S can safely switch in and do its job.

Your situation is like going into a game of chess, knowing one opening that can beat the opening you expect your opponent to use. Not only can the opponent choose not to open as you expect, but as every good chess player knows, each opening can be changed into another play, and each opening will have a play to beat it's supposed counter. You lose your queen once, you don't leave it in diagonally from a bishop ever again.

 

[tehy]

True enough, as far as it goes. But those other openings can be beaten as well, with prediction.

Look, deoxys turns everything into a heavy prediction war, but if you do kill its spinblocker, you can usually spin afterwards.

And besides, pokemon IS a game of chess, and one opening is beaten by another. Let's ban rotom-w and nattorei- they can do that too!!!!!!!!

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

True enough, as far as it goes. But those other openings can be beaten as well, with prediction.

Look, deoxys turns everything into a heavy prediction war, but if you do kill its spinblocker, you can usually spin afterwards.

And besides, pokemon IS a game of chess, and one opening is beaten by another. Let's ban rotom-w and nattorei- they can do that too!!!!!!!!

Well, in Chess, you don't start out at a big disadvantage without being able to stop it...in a way, White controls what Black plays.
Sicilian screws you over? Well, you don't really need to face it as you can start out with 1.d4.
Nimzo-Indian got you down? Just play 1.e4

Yes, I get your point regardless.


Rotom-W and Ferrothorn turn the game into a prediction war? Not really.
Rotom-W is annoying, but he's easily walled, can't set up hazards, etc.

Ferrothorn has decent attack, but his coverage sucks and he still has trouble with Grass/Fire types and such. Slow shit like Reuniclus that can set up in his face is also bad. Hell, dragons with Substitute/Taunt kinda rape him especially since he's so slow.

Deo-S on the other hand...well, he can carry SR, Spikes, Taunt, Magic Coat, Light Screen, Reflect, Superpower, HP Fire, Psycho Boost or Thunder(bolt).
Choose any 4 of those and you're on your way :)
Scizor gets you down? You use HP Fire.
T-tar trolls you? You use Superpower.
You want to use a cookie-cutter team of 5 sweepers? Screen dat shit and you still have the option of carrying an attack or two :D

 

[Ningildo]

Cloyster is bulky after SS with White Herb. And Screens. In that situation it can get 2 SS's.

@Ningildo: Only faster Taunt/Para is Whimsicott. Deo-S in lead is nearly always suicide. Sweepers sweep. Deo-S is Uber without Thundurus and Excadrill around to screw it over.

The situation was that you switch to Gorebyss to Smash Pass after Deoxys-S is dead.
What can't Taunt Gorebyss at +0?

 

[complete legitimacy]

Not really sure what you mean by that...Against dragonite you reflect and then procede to hinder it with whatever support move you have. Uxie's memento + screens means you can set up on a +1 dragonite all day. Ferrothorn can stay in and spike and you can stay in and get 3 setup turns. They have to switch.

They were just examples of other viable screeners. Deoxys can run LO with spikes and it will only get up 1 layer. It can run spikes with screens and get setup on and not setup properly. Hazard leads do not screw stall. Almost every stall team has a spinner and deo will rarely survive for more than 5 turns. Dual screens doesn't screw balance, and even if it did deo isn't the only screener for the millionth time. LO has so many counters. Jirachi walls it, Scizor can pick it off, terrakion can revenge it, Heatran walls it with protect. Bronzong walls it. Most bulky steels that aren't 4x weak to fire wall it (and even then, hp fire isn't on every set!)

Just because it has the ability to tear teams apart doesn't make it broken. Mixmence isn't broken. Reuniclus isn't broken because it can beat stall. Having the upper hand against a play style doesn't make it uber! Ban all stallbreakers! Ban all scarfers!

Here is what makes something broken: Having a near guaranteed chance to make it so a mon cannot be beaten fairly or by anything in the game. IE Garchomp in the sand. It could get past legitimate checks with 1 miss. There was nothing you could do. However for deoxys, what exactly does it do? Set up hazards well? You can spin those or limit them by preparing for it. LO sweeper? Try carrying a check or counter like Jirachi. Dual screens? Have a team that can handle threats for a few turns. Stall is capable. Some offensive carries scarfers for revenging. Having screens up isn't unfair. One because I'm using a whole slot to set them up, and two because mons can still be taken down by legitimate means under screens (also deo isn't the only screener, so you'd have to ban the moves reflect and light screen lol111)

One important thing that I forgot to mention is that if they invest in bulk rather than in speed like Deoxys, they must now avoid a 2HKO instead of an OHKO. This is massively important because Deoxys is so fast that all it needs to do is avoid an OHKO to get up both screens, while other Dual Screeners must avoid 2HKOs because they are outsped by moderately fast, extremely hard-hitting things, like a CB Haxorus for example.

The major thing that sets Deoxys apart from other Dual Screeners is that it can not only set up screens, but it can also lay down hazards to weaken counters, but also prevent your sweepers from getting statused or getting hazards layed down against you with Taunt.

I run a stall team, and the hazards set does not screw it. Seriously; here's what you do.

Lead with hippo, switch to starmie, kill gengar on the switch-in. Usually rotom-w comes in to force you out;go roserade. If he goes to scizor, put it to sleep, but if he goes to deoxys, switch in starmie and spin.

Thus, one layer or less. For an entire pokemon.

While it has already been mentioned that this takes an enormous amount of prediction and uses extreme specifics, what's not to say that Deoxys is running Tbolt specifically for this purpose? These Deoxys sets are anti-metagame and can really abuse what Deoxys has going for it, such as acceptable bulk, a wide movepool, and insane speed.

 

[lmitchell0012]

What about using a bulky spiritomb as a counter to deoxys?? His new ability may actually prove useful in the current metagame (if he sets up reflect/light screen). The worst he can do is cripple him with toxic, whereas spiritomb can cripple deoxys with will o wisp or toxic. However, even that can be beat by the rest-talk set if deoxys lacks calm mind. Spiritomb also has access to calm mind and nasty plot, which will aid him in taking deoxys-s down much faster. Not to mention pursuit if he tries to flee, and sucker punch and shadow sneak if he decides to stay in. Yeah, there are a lot of ways spiritomb can mess him up.

Comments, anyone??

 

[tehy]

Well, in Chess, you don't start out at a big disadvantage without being able to stop it...in a way, White controls what Black plays.
Sicilian screws you over? Well, you don't really need to face it as you can start out with 1.d4.
Nimzo-Indian got you down? Just play 1.e4

Yes, I get your point regardless.


Rotom-W and Ferrothorn turn the game into a prediction war? Not really.
Rotom-W is annoying, but he's easily walled, can't set up hazards, etc.

Ferrothorn has decent attack, but his coverage sucks and he still has trouble with Grass/Fire types and such. Slow shit like Reuniclus that can set up in his face is also bad. Hell, dragons with Substitute/Taunt kinda rape him especially since he's so slow.

Deo-S on the other hand...well, he can carry SR, Spikes, Taunt, Magic Coat, Light Screen, Reflect, Superpower, HP Fire, Psycho Boost or Thunder(bolt).
Choose any 4 of those and you're on your way :)
Scizor gets you down? You use HP Fire.
T-tar trolls you? You use Superpower.
You want to use a cookie-cutter team of 5 sweepers? Screen dat shit and you still have the option of carrying an attack or two :D

Well, rotom-w can infinitely volt switch, stalling you out forever, unless you carry a celebi with stealth rocks/blissey with rocks/gastro. And you'd have to lead with the first two.

And the point is, ferro can switch in on so much, or lead on so much, and start hazarding or seeding.

 

[OVERGRO]

I think that Deoxys-S is OU.
It is versatile, yes. But the way I see it, it can only run one set at a time, and cannot be a LO sweeper AND a master supporter at the same time. So, if you're giving it a place on your team, consider that it must choose a role to do well, and that role is easy enough to counter. Perhaps I have not faced someone experienced enough with Deoxys-S to understand the awesome power of this pokemon, but for the moment, I am thinking not Uber and I don't seem to be swaying :)

 

[sworm09]

I have to admit that Deoxys-S is annoying but not to the point of being broken. Sure, it's almost guaranteed to get up hazards or screens which in turn makes Hyper Offensive strategies easier to pull off, but I don't really see it as broken. It is easily dispatched due to its defensive stats and a Pokemon with Prankster or Magic Bounce can shut it down.