Dragonite (Classic MixNite Revamp) [QC: 3/3][GP: 2/2]

[shrang]

Okay, I agree with ginga (AND THE REST OF QC) that Roost should get the main slot. I'm not going to lie, I personally am not a fan of this set, due to the fact that Hydreigon and Salamence generally do what it does better. If you are serious in running a mixed set, I see no reason to run Dragonite over the pair of them. Therefore, if you want to run a classic mixed Dragonite, you will have to capitalise on what Dragonite has over both, which are:

1) Multiscale and bulk
2) ExtremeSpeed

Roost is your way of capitalising on (1), while ExtremeSpeed capitalises on (2). With anything else, I'd use Hydreigon or Salamence every single time. I personally think the last slot should just be Roost / ExtremeSpeed, and leave Earthquake in AC just because of this reason.

Before I leave this, however, I am going to address what will be your inevitable counter-argument: "Oh, this Dragonite set has more surprise factor and can lure in physical walls better than both Hydreigon and Salamence, and that's its key attraction". I will say this now, that surprise factor plays very little on whether an analysis is written for it. There is no reason to run a Pokemon that is pretty much clearly outclassed by another Pokemon solely based on surprise factor alone. Why? Because once the set is commonly known, it won't work any more, and you will have absolutely no reason to use it when a better alternative exists. You might argue that Flygon got a mixed "lure" analysis, but that's also because Flygon is resistant to Stealth Rock, has U-turn, Levitate and STAB Earthquake, so it is not outclassed even when the surprise factor is gone. You should be trying to do the same with Dragonite. The set needs to show its distinct advantages over Salamence and Hydreigon (which are definitely, in my eyes, mixed attackers using the set that you're proposing) even when surprise factor is omitted from the equation.

So change the final moveslot to Roost / ExtremeSpeed. I can accept Earthquake in the last slot, but I personally would just put it in AC.

 

[Jimera0]

Okay, I agree with ginga (AND THE REST OF QC) that Roost should get the main slot. I'm not going to lie, I personally am not a fan of this set, due to the fact that Hydreigon and Salamence generally do what it does better. If you are serious in running a mixed set, I see no reason to run Dragonite over the pair of them. Therefore, if you want to run a classic mixed Dragonite, you will have to capitalise on what Dragonite has over both, which are:

1) Multiscale and bulk
2) ExtremeSpeed

Roost is your way of capitalising on (1), while ExtremeSpeed capitalises on (2). With anything else, I'd use Hydreigon or Salamence every single time. I personally think the last slot should just be Roost / ExtremeSpeed, and leave Earthquake in AC just because of this reason.

Before I leave this, however, I am going to address what will be your inevitable counter-argument: "Oh, this Dragonite set has more surprise factor and can lure in physical walls better than both Hydreigon and Salamence, and that's its key attraction". I will say this now, that surprise factor plays very little on whether an analysis is written for it. There is no reason to run a Pokemon that is pretty much clearly outclassed by another Pokemon solely based on surprise factor alone. Why? Because once the set is commonly known, it won't work any more, and you will have absolutely no reason to use it when a better alternative exists. You might argue that Flygon got a mixed "lure" analysis, but that's also because Flygon is resistant to Stealth Rock, has U-turn, Levitate and STAB Earthquake, so it is not outclassed even when the surprise factor is gone. You should be trying to do the same with Dragonite. The set needs to show its distinct advantages over Salamence and Hydreigon (which are definitely, in my eyes, mixed attackers using the set that you're proposing) even when surprise factor is omitted from the equation.

So change the final moveslot to Roost / ExtremeSpeed. I can accept Earthquake in the last slot, but I personally would just put it in AC.

And now for my counter-argument to your counter argument: The surprise factor of this set isn't going anywhere even if the analysis goes on site. How do I know this? Because a variant of this set has been up there for months (if not over a year) and the surprise factor has not worn off.

I've said it and I've said it again; the purpose of this set is to lure in physical walls. I have used it VERY effectively over the past few weeks in the current metagame to do exactly that with reliable, consistent success. You will NOT get the same result with Hydreigon or Salamence because they don't lure in physical walls because one is known as a special attacker and the other one is known as a mixed attacker. The key is that this set doesn't rely so much on being unknown, so much as being uncommon. And that isn't going to change any time soon, analysis or not. Dragonite is seen as a purely physical attacker outside of rain, and that perception is NOT going away. That is what this set capitalizes on.

I'd like to point out that through my testing, that this set outperforms the one already on site. If you truly, 100% believe this set has no purpose, then classic Mixnite itself should be removed in its entirety. While I would not agree with this decision considering the immense success I have had with this set, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than letting the inferior set already on-site to remain.

I however refuse to put Roost as a primary slash because I have TESTED IT. It is flat out inferior to ExtremeSpeed and Earthquake. I have tested both ExtremeSpeed and Earthquake as well, and have found them BOTH to be very situational, but still less situational than Roost. I personally have found Earthquake to be the more effective option most of the time, primarily due to the prevalence of rain teams, against which it's pretty much necessary. However, if you are insistent that this set needs something more to "set it apart" from Salamence and Hydreigon, I am willing to put ES as the primary slash, despite it's lowered overall effectiveness, simply to stop this silly argument from postponing the process any further.

Essentially, Roost doesn't actually noticeably contribute to your 1) thing that is supposed to set Dragonite apart. The honest fact is that uninvented Dragonite's extra bulk is completely unnoticeable on this set, and only Multiscale has any impact to that effect. Using Roost to restore Multiscale has, in practice, proved fruitless. This is because the Pokemon that it could beat with Multiscale intact can ALSO be beaten by using Draco Meteor (or sometimes a different coverage move) on the switch, WITHOUT sacrificing a moveslot. And since I have found that, in practice, the only time you are ever going to get a Roost off is when the opponent is switching, this means that Roost is almost always going to be outclassed by simply attacking.

Finally, I'd encourage QC to actually TEST this set instead of to continue to theorymon about it. Listen. I get that you guys have lots of experience. I'm not one of those newbies who thinks they know Pokemon better than the people who've been playing it competitively for years. However, as experienced players, you guys HAVE to admit that theorymonning does not translate to actual battle results with 100% accuracy. If you HAVE been testing this set I apologize, but everything you all have said has done little to convince me you have done anything more than talk about it. This is one of those sets that works better in practice than it does in theory. I encourage you to try it alongside a physical attacker (I have Mamoswine, who loves having Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Forretress and Slowbro removed, but others would work just as well). I then encourage you try using Hydreigon or Salamence instead. I think you'll find that a LOT fewer people switch the aforementioned Pokemon into those two, and that you'll need a separate physical wallbreaker (or lots of prior damage I suppose) to take care of them.

IN SUMMARY:
-Dragonite's "surprise" quality comes not from the unknown nature of the set, but from the fact that Dragonite out of rain is almost always a powerful physical attacker that MUST be countered immediately. This causes RELIABLE switches of physically defensive Pokemon into Dragonite, even against opponents aware that Dragonite can run Fire Blast and Draco Meteor, simply because it is more LIKELY that Dragonite is physical and if they DON'T make the switch it can cost them the game.
-This factor is what sets it apart from Salamence and Hydreigon. Honestly, ES and Multiscale are not enough reason on their own. However, neither alternative works as a physical lure (well Salamence can against really shitty players I suppose, but relying on your opponent to suck is a terrible strategy). It IS that ability that sets it apart and makes it worth using over the other two on some teams.
-That luring ability isn't going anywhere, whether this analysis goes up or not. Dragonite will always be a predominately physical attacker outside of rain because those sets work so damn well. And as long as that is true, this set will continue to work. For evidence, look no farther than the set this post was originally competing with; it's been on the site for who knows how long and it hasn't impacted the luring ability of this set one bit.
-Roost is a waste of a moveslot because the only time you can use it without getting KO'd right back is during switches, and in those instances it provides no benefit over simply attacking. This conclusion is backed up by extensive testing. I only don't have logs because PS! doesn't currently keep them.
-ES is usually slightly worse than EQ, but because they're so close in usefulness I will put it in the primary slash if you're still convinced that you need the differentiation from Salamence and Hydreigon. It's certainly better as a differentiation than Dragonite's imaginary (on this set anyway) bulk.
-If you guys still don't believe me, please, PLEASE test it. If you still disagree after that, whatever, we'll just get rid of this set altogether in the cleanup afterwards. But until then, please listen to the guy who has spent 2 weeks of actual playtime testing and tweaking this set. You might know the metagame better as a whole, but I KNOW this set better than anyone else does.

Thanks for your time. I'm sorry if this has been frustrating for you on the QC team but it's hard for me to back down from something that I feel I have conclusive proof of effectiveness for, especially when none of the arguments made against it are backed up by actual testing. If you can test it for a significant period of time, come back and provide good arguments as to why this set is outclassed and/or Roost is actually a decent option, I will bow to your judgement. But until you provide said evidence, I'm going to keep fighting to make my point.

 

[Danger Mouse]

Honestly, why not just use hydreigon or salamence? It seems like you're forcing dragonite into a role it's not really suited for.

 

[ginganinja]

Responding

Jimera0, I am kinda disappointed that you seem to think so little of QC. It is fairly insulting that you believe that none of us tested MixNite, just because we don't share your point of view. You are a fairly decent member of the smogon community (the badge hints at this), so yea, im fairly upset that you made quite a few judgments about QC, that you had no proof towards, and as such, insulted quite a lot of people. I just want to make the point that I know for sure that I tested it, and I still disagree with you, due to the following.

Firstly, I tested both MixNite and MixMence (Moxie version although I tested Classic as well, more on that later), due to some users questioning whether it was actually viable as a Mixed Attacker, when it suffered from competition from both Salamence and Hydreigon. Firstly, lets bring up your argument in response to the above.

I've said it and I've said it again; the purpose of this set is to lure in physical walls. I have used it VERY effectively over the past few weeks in the current metagame to do exactly that with reliable, consistent success. You will NOT get the same result with Hydreigon or Salamence because they don't lure in physical walls because one is known as a special attacker and the other one is known as a mixed attacker. The key is that this set doesn't rely so much on being unknown, so much as being uncommon.

Yes, Dragonite lures in Physical walls, while Hydreigon lures in special walls. To me, this doesn't make Dragonite "better", just as it doesn't make Hydreigon "better". Both of them lure in walls that traditionally counter them, and then nail them with an attacking move on the other side of the spectrum. Hydreigon is faster than Dragonite, and has a better typing, however I will contend, that this does not mean that Dragonite is inferior, because it has the niche in luring in physical walls, ergo it is not outclassed by Hydreigon since they lure in different things. Thats Point #1

Dragonite vs Salamence is a little difficult. In my testing, whenever I ran Earthquake, I was always comparing the set to MoxieMixMence. Period. They have almost the exact same moves, however Salamence can actually make better use of its ability, Moxie, since it just snowballs, and makes it exceptionally tough to handle. Sure, Superpower hits Chansey / Blissey harder than Outrage, but Salamence still 2KOs both with Outrage (SR for Chansey), and after a Moxie Boost, Salamence is stronger. This is a fact. Your argument against this is as follows:

You will NOT get the same result with Hydreigon or Salamence because they don't lure in physical walls because one is known as a special attacker and the other one is known as a mixed attacker.

This is an incorrect statement. Dragonite is commonly seen as a Dragon Dancer, and Salamence is commonly seen as a Scarf user. That is a fact. The Scarf set is physical based, and is checked by physical walls. The DD set, while previously rare, is still very viable due to DD + Outrage + Moxie being legal, which means that if I face a Salamence, a Dragon Dance set is not out of the question either (heck I see DD more than I see Mixed). The point is, cut this utter crap that Dragonite lures in physical walls "better", they both do the same job because both have a physical set as their most common set. Now, I would like to bring up a point that you yourself made.

Dragonite's "surprise" quality comes not from the unknown nature of the set, but from the fact that Dragonite out of rain is almost always a powerful physical attacker that MUST be countered immediately. This causes RELIABLE switches of physically defensive Pokemon into Dragonite, even against opponents aware that Dragonite can run Fire Blast and Draco Meteor, simply because it is more LIKELY that Dragonite is physical and if they DON'T make the switch it can cost them the game.

Notice something? Salamence does the exact same thing. Salamence is so strong, and so threatening due to that ability to snowball, that it forces people to react in a certain way, since if you predict wrong, you just gave Salamence a free +1 boost. When I see a Salamence, the first thing I don't do, is switch in my fucking special wall because "thats obviously Mixed". What I do, is bring in my physical wall (this is assuming I don't actually have a better option on hand) simply because its most common set at the moment, is scarf. This doesn't make me a bad player (ill double switch out if I really really think its mixed but I won't bring that argument in here because it complicates things, please don't you bring it up either T_T), its just me making a judgement call based on the most common set on the ladder. But hey, I didn't just theroymon this, I 'shock horror' actually tested it!!!. Imagine that, a QC member actually testing shit, amazing. In my testing, I found that Dragonite and Salamence both lured in and dispatched physical walls equally well, I did however, find that when I ran EQ on Dragonite, I was always asking myself why I was not using MoxieMixMence. If Salamence got the Moxie boost, (with good play, its going to happen) then I was better than Dragonite, hands down. Therefore, in my testing, I found that Dragonite, running a set of DM / FB / SP / EQ, was outclassed by MoxieMixMence. Did MixNite work? Yes. Was it Successful? Yes. Was it outclassed by anything else? In my experience, Yes, it was outclassed by MoxieMence most of the time.

After I arrived at this conclusion, I was in a dilemma in that people said the set was good, it worked fine, and people wanted the set to stay. The problem was, it was just outclassed by Salamence. I, and some other QC members came to the conclusion that if there was to be a MixNite set, it had to differentiate itself from Salamence. This had to happen, otherwise, their could be no MixNite set. Extreme Speed gives Dragonite its niche, which is why it was slashed in the final slot, since it was useful, and kinda gave it a niche, however in practise it was kinda average during testing. Roost was agreed upon as the final slash (and after testing), due to the fact that heals of residual damage, which allows Dragonite to stay in the game for longer, and force stall teams to keep making correct preditions, in order to avoid losing a pokemon. It was also nice for situations like this:

I have a Dragonite at 65% (switched into SR and attacked once so stall knows I am mixed). Sand is (now) up, I have a Scarf Rotom W in play, and I Volt Switch, as my opponent brings in Blissey. I bring in Dragonite, and take SR, leaving me at 40%. I could Superpower here, but I am not sure what move to use, so, knowing that my opponent will switch, I Roost, bringing myself up to 90% (and then lose 6% to sand bringing me to 86%) I successfully scouted the switch, and can act accordingly.

Its not the best example, but that is basically how Roost works, LO + SR + other residual damage WILL kill off Dragonite, and Roost allows it to stay around longer, healing off that LO recoil and making it harder to predict around. Sure, it has less use against an offensive team, which won't give you the time to Roost, however, MixNite in general, in my testing, was less successful against offensive teams, heck, I would rather have access to the 100 base speed of Salamence in those situations (Are we seeing a pattern yet?).

When Dragonite uses Roost, its technically not outclassed since it has enough of a niche between Roost (or ES) and Superpower, which allows it to function slightly different to MoxieMixMence. You can disagree with that statement, its fine, however I rate Roost much higher than ES in terms of usability, and I am not the only person who thinks so. Dragonite with Roost, directly does a similar job to the Classic Mixed set of Salamence, heck, it does a better job (imo) than the Classic Mixed set of Salamence, since you have Superpower instead of Brick Break, which lets you beat Chansey. its important to bear in mind that if MixNite is outclassed by MoxieMixMence, then it has no set, Classic Mix Mence was ruled to not be outclassed by MoxieMixMence, ergo, Dragonite with Roost (which is basically the same as Classic MixMence), I believe, is different enough to hold its small niche over MoxieMixMence, allowing it to have a set.

All this lead to the final slot being ordered as Roost / EQ / ES, since we did actually want EQ mentioned somewhere, although if I had my way (and others also like this idea), id relegate EQ to AC but w/e.

In summery, I don't speak for anyone else on QC (they form there own opinions and can weigh in here if they would like too) but I know that I myself tested it, and QC itself also formed opinions based on prior experience. The difference between you and I, is that (roughly) 12 people, tested and made a decision and decided on Roost getting first slash, whereas its just you, who want EQ to be the main. You have your opinions, and we have ours, however, the 12 of us made a decision, and we expect you to abide by it. Just to make it clear here, we tested it, we provided evidence, and now, to quote yourself here...

I will bow to your judgement

Please don't make unfounded accusations in future, your post was actually pretty rude, in that you didn't think QC had tested it, just because we didn't share your own opinion. I get that you are frustrated, but in all honestly it was no reason for you to be discourteous to us, just because you didn't get your way. Again, please don't do this in future, as I shouldn't, nor have the intention to, type up a 1.7K post all the time just to explain this to your person.

 

[Pocket]

I can't blame Jimera0 to wrongfully assume that ginganinja / shrang didn't test this set out, because their posts really don't provide much reasoning behind their decisions other than to "make it different from Salamence / Hydreigon." Jimera0's response is understandable, especially since his test results reached the opposite conclusion.

I personally share Jimera0's view that Jirachi in the rain is a prevalent enough threat that Dragonite must overcome lest it wants to be consistently walled by one. Not being able to get past Jirachi would mean Dragonite can't accomplish its #1 role of wall-breaking. This Dragonite set isn't necessarily paired with Sun teams or lol Sand / Hail teams to negate rain. IMO the ability to lure physical walls differentiate this set from Hydreigon, and access to Superpower & ExtremeSpeed sets it apart from Salamence, who is limited to locking itself to Outrage and can only revenge slower threats. Arguably, Roost would actually make this set more similar to the classic mixed set shared by Hydreigon and Salamence. Basically, I don't believe Roost would help Dragonite be "different" from Hydreigon / Salamence's mixed set, whereas ExtremeSpeed, Superpower, and physical lure is more than enough to set it apart from both of them.

Next time when such contradictions take place both the contributor and QC member should copy logs from Showdown and paste it under hide tags to provide more convincing cases for their views, rather than their own word, which can only go so far. It *may* not be too late to start now.

 

[Jimera0]

@Pocket:

Thanks for explaining my position here. You summed up a lot of my opinions and views on the matter quite concisely. I will try to record more records in the future; admittedly I usually just flat out forget since I'm so used to PO where your logs are automatically recorded.

@Ginganinja

Woaaah there, I didn't mean to offend anybody. I honestly had no way of knowing that you WERE testing the sets, and the insinuation that you weren't wasn't intended as an insult either. I simply assumed that if you weren't testing it, it was because you were busy with other things. I can hardly expect you to be testing every QC set that gets thrown your way constantly. With this is mind, I assumed that you had simply taken the shorter route and simply discussed it instead. As I am not a member of the QC team I have no way of knowing the precise workings of what you do behind the scenes, so I didn't know how extensively you tested all the sets. This isn't helped by the fact that usually the only QC member I ever see posting logs is Pocket. This gave me the incorrect perception that if QC members test a set that they'll always post logs showing evidence of what they found. So when no one posted logs here, I incorrectly assumed that no one was testing it, and when no one actually came forward and actually said they were testing it, well, it only confirmed my beliefs. There were other factors that also contributed to this perception but I don't think you need the whole laundry list. The short of it is that I thought you and the others were, for probably legitimate reasons, not testing the set and were basing your arguments on theory. I would like to note that I did briefly account for the possibility that I was wrong in my previous post (quote "if you HAVE been testing this set I apologize"). For what it's worth, it's reassuring to hear that you guys really do go to the trouble of testing most sets before commenting on them. There honestly isn't anything anywhere so much as suggesting that this is a thing all QCer's do, so I had to go with my gut. Unfortunately, my gut tends to be pretty pessimistic at times.

Anyway, I'd like to hear the reasoning of the other QC members. I guess I ended up bashing Roost quite a bit in the end there, but I did point out earlier that there were situations where it was useful; they were simply outnumbered by the situations where I would rather have had EQ or ES. If more QC members also insist on Roost being slash, I will gladly include it. However, I do think that if that is the case then this will warrant the rare tripple slash, since all three moves have their uses and its so goddamn difficult determining which is more useful than which (as the discussion in this topic has shown so far).

As for your argument regarding Salamence, I stand by my position that people are less likely to switch physical walls into Salamence. Reason being? Salamence is more easily revenged than Dragonite (usually due to Outrage lock more than anything else really), is known for running fire blast on almost every set, and is also known for running a scarf set with rather weak initial power. In my personal experience I have found that when using a reasonably bulky team switching in your fire weak physical wall is usually NOT the best course of action; instead switching in a Pokemon that can take a single outrage first is typically the better course of action, since then you can scout what set it actually is and deal with it accordingly. Switching in something like Skarmory is just asking to have it fire blasted, and most experienced players know that and DO play differently around it because of it. There's the threat of it DDing in your face, sure, but most DD mence sets that are really threatening after 1 DD run FB anyway so it's not like you're losing anything by not switching in Skarm or Ferrothorn right away is it? Anyway, that's what I do personally. And the thing is, I've seen so, so many different ways that people react to Salamence that predicting exactly HOW they're going to react and selecting the appropriate move has got to be pretty darn difficult, and if you pick the wrong one the jig is up, and that physical wall you wanted gone is staying right where it is.

On the other hand, there is almost never any such hesitation with Dragonite. There's no questioning "is this thing going to FB or DM my ass" people just switch in their bulky phazer and are done with it. In short, it's just plain more reliable at luring in what you want lured in. If you have Dnite out for the first time, you pretty much KNOW what your opponent is switching to, unless they have both Slowbro and Skarmory or something I suppose. You don't get that with Salamence because there really IS no standard way to deal with Salamence, and you really never know exactly what you're going to get. It's that predictability that makes mixed Dragonite the best damn lure for physical walls I've ever used.

Anyway, I am truly sorry that I unintentionally offended you. I really do respect the QC team and what you do. However, I don't assume anyone to be infallible, regardless of the position they hold, so you'll have to excuse my doubts. Just please understand that they aren't sign of disrespect or lack of confidence, but rather my general outlook on people in general.

EDIT:

I actually think I have a proposal that might put this final moveslot slash debate to rest without us having to settle conclusively on an order (since we're clearly not very likely to settle on an order that satisfies everyone). How about we just have all three moves slashed in an arbitrary order, and I go over all three, list the benefits and negatives of both (succinctly of course, don't want the analysis to be overly long) and mention that the decision of which to chose is largely a matter of personal preference? Honestly stepping back and looking at how this one small detail has blown out of proportion is kind of stunning; most people hardly notice slash order anyway. I'm thinking now that we've determined all three options are viable we should just not worry so much about which is better and just get on with the project.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

Although I have no experience with this Dragonite, I do know what the moves do and don't do. All three moves seem equally viable on Dragonite, but really, it just doesn't have enough moveslots. Roost is wanted to keep its wallbreaking powers as much as possible, Extreemespeed is a powerful priority tool used for cleaning, and Earthquake helps it get past certain foes. With Roost, however, it doesn't have quite as many moves to choose from to aid in breaking walls, with Extreemespeed, its coverage is lacking and certain foes can wear it down, and without Earthquake, it doesn't have too much to offer over its competition.

What I see is a different take on MixNite between users. Jimera0 seems to favor Earthquake or Extreemespeed because they offer more offense than Roost, acting more as a lure and more of a Wallbreaker but taking less advantage of its ability and staying power. On the other hand, ginganinja appears to like this Dragonite to aid in its staying power, allowing it to perform repeatedly, while possibly activating its ability, but not deal with some Pokemon that Dragonite would struggle a bit with. Indeed, neither of you seem wrong - both are very viable, but make MixNite play differently.

The best solution is to just not really fuss about it... Its a pretty small detail, and the thing about the last moveslot is I usually look at the moves, see their advantages, and then carry on from there for what I want my Pokemon to do. For example, on the Beartic article I am doing in NU, there is Taunt or Aqua Jet in the last slot. Both are useful for Beartic, but really, the moves play differently, and what the Beartic wants to ultimately accomplish is up to the user. The same goes for Dragonite - a user can decide which should be more useful for what their Dragonite wants to do as a Wallbreaker, and carry on from there. The ordering has truly little to do with it if the options are described well enough.

 

[Pocket]

Jimera0 if you don't want to go through the hassle of collecting logs to prove your point, I'll just go with what ginganinja originally suggested, since most of the QC agreed on it - your eloquent posts wont be enough to convince them x(

Please make the set

Dragonite @ Life Orb
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 60 Att / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
Nature: Rash
Moves:
-Draco Meteor
-Fire Blast
-Superpower
-Roost / Earthquake / ExtremeSpeed.

And ill stamp.

Of course feedback from other QC members would be much appreciated here.

 

[Jimera0]

Yeah unless anyone else objects I'll just do that. Honestly I'm at the point where I don't give a damn what order the slashes are in, as long as EQ is there. I still maintain that forcing Roost or ES onto Dnite for the sake of "differentiating" it from Salamence makes no sense, but that's fine because there's no need for me to use that as a reason when writing it up! I'll just give all three options equal mention, and let the user pick what they want for themselves. This really isn't worth arguing over and as I said in my edit of my last post when I step back I'm kind of stunned what a massive mess we've made of such a minor detail.

I'll make the edit for the order right now just to get this over with. I feel somewhat drained now and as long as no one insists on putting EQ in AC I'll go along with whatever you guys want. Consider this skeleton FINALLY in it's final form as of this post.

 

[Pocket]

Well you put up a damn good fight. We can always re-visit this during the Dragonite revamp when we re-collect ourselves. Your analysis provides some very convincing case for EQ with your damage calcs, so having Roost the first option seems rather counter-intuitive. Again, we will re-visit this.

~ I would mention that LO-boosted ESpeed with the main spread still hits slightly harder than LumDDNite's ESpeed.

~ You mentioned Amoonguss as a partner, but given the DNite checks you listed, I don't see it as a good defensive pivot. Maybe it may help against Starmie, but most of them are packing Psyshock b/c of Keldeo fever. I'd either remove Amoonguss's teammate mention or elaborate on it more.

QC Approved (1/3)

 

[jc104]

Slash order is really not too important in my opinion. As long as those three moves are there, it's fine (just in case you're curious I would prefer ExtremeSpeed first in the last slot.)

The only thing that occurred to me is that a Mild nature might actually suit Dragonite better. Dragonite's Special Defense is significantly more useful than its Defense, bearing in mind its resistances. At least put it in AC.

[qc]2/3[/qc]

 

[ginganinja]

[qc]3/3[/qc]

 

[Jimera0]

Alright, there we go! I have it all written up and ready to go. I added mention of Wish support in the AC since when I thought of it, well, it was like "why the fuck didn't I think of this before". Wish and this Dragonite go together like peanut butter and jelly, as it not only heals off all the residual damage Dragonite takes but can also restore Multiscale, provide it with a safe way to switch in and it does all this WITHOUT sacrificing a moveslot for Roost. On top of that almost all the common wish passers synergize well with Dragonite defensively! It's like a match made in heaven.

Anyway, let me know if there's anything I missed/overstated in it and I'll go in and fix it. I think I hit the nail on the head more or less though, and I've gone over it around a half dozen times anyway so hopefully there won't be much to change :P.

Also, I'd like to hear suggestions on how we're going to go about the Dragonite analysis revamp after this is done. I think that it's pretty obvious we'll start a new topic for it, but considering the sheer enormous size of Dragonite's analysis page (seriously, NINE freaking analyses. If that's not the most any Pokemon has on the site for one tier I'm a monkey's uncle) figuring out exactly how we're going to handle it is somewhat daunting. I personally don't think it would be a good idea to edit all 9 in one go since that'd likely get somewhat chaotic and confusing. Any suggestions on exactly how to go about this process before I actually go and make that topic would be greatly appreciated.

 

[ginganinja]

Looks good, I would prolly add in a teammate or two that could deal with Jellicent, which can be fairly frustrating if you don't run EQ. Maybe a few partners to deal with Jirachi and Tenta under Rain if you lack EQ, but other than that I don't have much to criticise.

In regards to Dragonite I am pretty sure QC will discuss the sets, decide if any are still viable, and remove the ones that are unviable. With that done, the analysis can prolly be updated to reflect the new threats, and then hopefully done. That was my understanding of it anyway.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Amateur check; Not gone just sleeping
REMOVE CHANGE COMMENTS

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name: Classic MixNite
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Superpower
move 4: Roost / Earthquake / ExtremeSpeed
item: Life Orb
ability: Multiscale
nature: Rash / Mild
evs: 60 Atk / 252 SpA / 196 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>While the classic MixNite set has fallen from favor in the face of competition from Salamence and Hydreigon, this old set has gained and retained enough perks in Generation 5 to set it apart from its faster and more powerful brethren. It still has enough power to 2HKO almost any Pokemon in the OU metagame, (remove comma) and is less dependent on Outrage than Salamence and Hydreigon due to Superpower, meaning it can take down special and mixed walls without sacrificing itself to revenge killers in the process. Multiscale gives it an edge in certain situations and Dragonite is the only member of the trio with access to powerful priority in ExtremeSpeed. Perhaps most important of all though is Dragonite’s ability to reliably lure in and OHKO physical walls like Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, and Slowbro, something Salamence and Hydreigon are much less likely to accomplish due to their reputation for packing Fire Blast and Draco Meteor.</p>

<p>Draco Meteor and Fire Blast are the most important moves in the set, as they are what removes the physical walls that Dragonite lures in. Superpower allows Dragonite to reliably finish off foes that survive a Draco Meteor and also provides invaluable coverage against Blissey, Chansey, (add comma) and Tyranitar. The choice of move in the final slot is a bit of a toss-up, and generally comes down to personal preference and team needs. Roost allows Dragonite to better dismantle more defensive teams by being able to recover the HP needed for multiple assaults. However, Earthquake provides key coverage against common rain abusing Pokemon, most notably Jirachi and Tentacruel which can wall Dragonite otherwise with rain support. It also gives Dragonite a safe attacking option when lowering its stats might not be prudent. ExtremeSpeed is a final option that allows Dragonite to be a revenge killer in a pinch and can allow it to pick off weakened threats such as Jolteon and Alakazam that it cannot stay in on otherwise.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Dragonite absolutely needs a Life Orb for this set to function, or it will not be able to perform its wallbreaking role effectively. The Speed EVs given allow Dragonite to outspeed the many walls that aim to outspeed Jolly Tyranitar, such as Gliscor, Celebi, Jirachi, and Tentacruel, so it can KO them before they can KO or cripple Dragonite back. An alternate spread of 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe can be used with ExtremeSpeed to power it up, but doing so significantly impacts Dragonite’s ability to beat the aforementioned walls and other slightly faster Pokemon such as Landorus-T one-on-one. A Rash or Mild nature is chosen to power up Dragonite’s main attacking moves without impacting speed. Which one you pick depends on whether you want Dragonite to be able to take physical or special hits better, but usually the difference between the two is negligible. Personally I would list Mild as the first option, as it prevents that rare download boost. I really don't know why I spot this in every analysis, though... Finally, Dragonite can run Outrage in the final slot in order to hit some walls harder than it can with Superpower, but locking Dragonite into Outrage is pretty much a death sentence so long as a single revenge killer remains on the opposing team. Since one of Dragonite’s few perks over Salamence is that it doesn’t have to go kamikaze with Outrage in order to remove mixed and special walls, this is usually very undesirable.</p>

<p>This Dragonite is very much a team player and should only be used with teammates it pairs up well with. Any physical attacker that has trouble with physical walls such as Skarmory and Gliscor will greatly appreciate Dragonite’s ability to reliably lure them in and obliterate them. Pokemon like Life Orb Mamoswine, Dragon Dance Haxorus, (add comma) and Bulk up Conkeldurr greatly appreciate having Skarmory in particular removed, and no other Dragon-type lures in and KOs Skarmory as reliably as Dragonite does. Dragonite itself also greatly appreciates hazard support, with Stealth Rock in particular securing many vital 2HKOs and OHKOs for it. Jirachi is an excellent setter of Stealth Rock that also happens to resist all of Dragonite’s weaknesses, making it a great choice for this role. Dragonite loathes Stealth Rock itself, so a spinner is of paramount importance to make the most of this set’s hit and run nature. Starmie is a reliable spinner that can also take care of many of the Dragon-, Water-, (add comma) and Ice-type Pokemon that will inevitably attempt to revenge kill Dragonite after it does its job. Forretress is a more defensive alternative that is able to take hits aimed at Dragonite, and can lay down hazards for Dragonite to abuse to boot Honestly it just sounded a little strange to me. It doesn't really matter. Additionally, it goes without saying that this Dragonite is very vulnerable to being revenge killed after taking out a target. As such, Pokemon like Jirachi, Chansey, Vaporeon, (add comma) and Slowbro that can take hits from would-be revenge killers with ease are very welcome partners to Dragonite. Lastly, with all the residual damage Dragonite is going to be taking a Pokemon that can passa Wish to it is greatly appreciated and pairs very well with Multiscale. The aforementioned Jirachi, Chansey, (add comma) and Vaporeon all do this very well and can easily switch in for Dragonite under most circumstances due to general bulk and resistances.</p>

 

[SkullCandy]

diff

name: Classic MixNite
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Superpower
move 4: Roost / Earthquake / ExtremeSpeed
item: Life Orb
ability: Multiscale
nature: Rash / Mild
evs: 60 Atk / 252 SpA / 196 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>While the classic MixNite set has fallen from favor in the face of competition from Salamence and Hydreigon, this old setDragonite has gained and retained enough perks in Generation 5 to set ithis set apart from those of its faster and more powerful brethren. It still has enough power to 2HKO almost any Pokemon in the OU metagame and is less dependent on Outrage than Salamence and Hydreigon duethanks to Superpower, meaning it can take down special and mixed walls without sacrificing itself to revenge killers in the process. Multiscale gives it an edge in certain situations, and Dragonite is the only member of the trio with access to powerful priority in ExtremeSpeed. Perhaps most important of all though is Dragonite’'s ability to reliably lure in and OHKO physical walls likesuch as Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, and Slowbro, something Salamence and Hydreigon are much less likely to accomplish due to their reputation for packing Fire Blast and Draco Meteor.</p>

<p>Draco Meteor and Fire Blast are the most important moves in the set, as they are what removesobliterate the physical walls that Dragonite lures in. Superpower allows Dragonite to reliably finish off foes that survive a Draco Meteor and also provides invaluable coverage against Blissey, Chansey, and Tyranitar. The choice of move in the final slot is a bit of a toss-up, and generally comes down to personal preference and team-specific needs. Roost allowenables Dragonite to better dismantle more defensive teams by being able to recover the HP needed for multiple assaults. However, Earthquake provides key coverage against common rain abusing PokemonPokemon commonly found on rain teams, most notably Jirachi and Tentacruel, whicho can wall Dragonite otherwise with rain support. It also gives Dragonite a safe attacking option when lowering its stats might not be prudent. ExtremeSpeed is a final option that allows Dragonite to befunction as a revenge killer in a pinch and can allowenables it to pick off weakened threats such as Jolteon and Alakazam that it cannot stay in on otherwise.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Dragonite absolutely needs a Life Orb for this set to function, or it will not be able to perform its wallbreaking role effectively. The Speed EVs given allow Dragonite to outspeed the many walls that aim to outspeed Jolly Tyranitar, such as Gliscor, Celebi, Jirachi, and Tentacruel, so it can KO them before they can KO or cripple Dragonite back. An alternate spread of 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe can be used with ExtremeSpeed to power it up, but doing so significantly impacts Dragonite’'s ability to beat the aforementioned walls and other slightly faster Pokemon such as Landorus-T one-on-one. A Rash or Mild nature is chosen to power up Dragonite’'s main attacking moves without impacting son Speed. Which one you pick depends on whether you want Dragonite to be able to take physical or special hits better, but usually the difference between the two is negligible. Finally, Dragonite can run Outrage in the final slot in order to hit some walls harder than it can with Superpower, but locking Dragonite into Outrage is pretty much a death sentence so long as a single revenge killer remains on the opposing team. Since one of Dragonite’s few perks over Salamence is that it doesn’'t have to go kamikaze with Outrage in order to remove mixed and special walls, this is usually very undesirable.</p>

<p>This Dragonite is very much a team player and should only be used with teammates it pairs up well with. Any physical attacker that has trouble with physical walls such as Skarmory and Gliscor will greatly appreciate Dragonite’'s ability to reliably lure them in and obliterate them. Pokemon like Life Orb Mamoswine, Dragon Dance Haxorus, and Bulk uUp Conkeldurr greatly appreciate having Skarmory in particular removed, and no other Dragon-type lures in and KOs Skarmory as reliably as Dragonite does. Dragonite itself also greatly appreciates hazard support, with Stealth Rock in particular securing many vital 2HKOs and OHKOs for it. Jirachi is an excellent setter of Stealth Rock that also happens to resist all of Dragonite’'s weaknesses, making it a great choice for this role. Dragonite loathes Stealth Rock itself, so a spinner is of paramount importance to make the most of this set’'s hit and run nature. Starmie is a reliable spinner that can also take care of the many of the Dragon-, Water-, and Ice-type Pokemon that will inevitably attempt to revenge kill Dragonite after it does its job. Forretress is a more defensive alternative that is able to take hits aimed at Dragonite, and can lay down hazards for Dragonite to abusetake advantage of. Additionally, it goes without saying that this Dragonite is very vulnerable to being revenge killed after taking out a target. As such, Pokemon likesuch as Jirachi, Chansey, Vaporeon, and Slowbro that can take hits from would-be revenge killers with ease are very welcome partners to Dragonite. Lastly, with all the residual damage Dragonite is going to be taking, a Pokemon that can pass a Wishes to it is greatly appreciated and pairs very well with Multiscale. The aforementioned Jirachi, Chansey, and Vaporeon all do this very well and can easily switch in for Dragonite under most circumstances due to general bulk andthanks to good general bulk and a plethora of useful resistances.</p>

c/p

name: Classic MixNite
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Superpower
move 4: Roost / Earthquake / ExtremeSpeed
item: Life Orb
ability: Multiscale
nature: Rash / Mild
evs: 60 Atk / 252 SpA / 196 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>While the classic MixNite set has fallen from favor in the face of competition from Salamence and Hydreigon, Dragonite has gained and retained enough perks in Generation 5 to set this set apart from those of its faster and more powerful brethren. It still has enough power to 2HKO almost any Pokemon in the OU metagame and is less dependent on Outrage than Salamence and Hydreigon thanks to Superpower, meaning it can take down special and mixed walls without sacrificing itself to revenge killers in the process. Multiscale gives it an edge in certain situations, and Dragonite is the only member of the trio with access to powerful priority in ExtremeSpeed. Perhaps most important of all though is Dragonite's ability to reliably lure in and OHKO physical walls such as Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, and Slowbro, something Salamence and Hydreigon are much less likely to accomplish due to their reputation for packing Fire Blast and Draco Meteor.</p>

<p>Draco Meteor and Fire Blast are the most important moves in the set, as they obliterate the physical walls that Dragonite lures in. Superpower allows Dragonite to reliably finish off foes that survive a Draco Meteor and also provides invaluable coverage against Blissey, Chansey, and Tyranitar. The choice of move in the final slot is a bit of a toss-up, and generally comes down to personal preference and team-specific needs. Roost enables Dragonite to better dismantle defensive teams by being able to recover the HP needed for multiple assaults. However, Earthquake provides key coverage against Pokemon commonly found on rain teams, most notably Jirachi and Tentacruel, who can wall Dragonite otherwise with rain support. It also gives Dragonite a safe attacking option when lowering its stats might not be prudent. ExtremeSpeed is a final option that allows Dragonite to function as a revenge killer in a pinch and enables it to pick off weakened threats such as Jolteon and Alakazam that it cannot stay in on otherwise.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Dragonite absolutely needs a Life Orb for this set to function, or it will not be able to perform its wallbreaking role effectively. The Speed EVs given allow Dragonite to outspeed the many walls that aim to outspeed Jolly Tyranitar, such as Gliscor, Celebi, Jirachi, and Tentacruel, so it can KO them before they can KO or cripple Dragonite back. An alternate spread of 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe can be used with ExtremeSpeed to power it up, but doing so significantly impacts Dragonite's ability to beat the aforementioned walls and other slightly faster Pokemon such as Landorus-T one-on-one. A Rash or Mild nature is chosen to power up Dragonite's main attacking moves without impacting on Speed. Which one you pick depends on whether you want Dragonite to be able to take physical or special hits better, but usually the difference between the two is negligible. Finally, Dragonite can run Outrage in the final slot in order to hit some walls harder than it can with Superpower, but locking Dragonite into Outrage is pretty much a death sentence so long as a single revenge killer remains on the opposing team. Since one of Dragonite’s few perks over Salamence is that it doesn't have to go kamikaze with Outrage in order to remove mixed and special walls, this is usually very undesirable.</p>

<p>Any physical attacker that has trouble with physical walls such as Skarmory and Gliscor will greatly appreciate Dragonite's ability to reliably lure them in and obliterate them. Pokemon like Life Orb Mamoswine, Dragon Dance Haxorus, and Bulk Up Conkeldurr greatly appreciate having Skarmory in particular removed, and no other Dragon-type lures in and KOs Skarmory as reliably as Dragonite does. Dragonite itself also greatly appreciates hazard support, with Stealth Rock in particular securing many vital 2HKOs and OHKOs for it. Jirachi is an excellent setter of Stealth Rock that also happens to resist all of Dragonite's weaknesses, making it a great choice for this role. Dragonite loathes Stealth Rock itself, so a spinner is of paramount importance to make the most of this set's hit and run nature. Starmie is a reliable spinner that can also take care of the many Dragon-, Water-, and Ice-type Pokemon that will inevitably attempt to revenge kill Dragonite after it does its job. Forretress is a more defensive alternative that is able to take hits aimed at Dragonite, and can lay down hazards for Dragonite to take advantage of. Additionally, it goes without saying that this Dragonite is very vulnerable to being revenge killed after taking out a target. As such, Pokemon such as Jirachi, Chansey, Vaporeon, and Slowbro that can take hits from would-be revenge killers with ease are very welcome partners to Dragonite. Lastly, with all the residual damage Dragonite is going to be taking, a Pokemon that can pass Wishes to it is greatly appreciated and pairs very well with Multiscale. The aforementioned Jirachi, Chansey, and Vaporeon all do this very well and can easily switch in for Dragonite under most circumstances thanks to good general bulk and a plethora of useful resistances.</p>

Just a couple of issues here:

• Use 'such as' when giving examples, like is only for direct comparisons.
• Any instances of 'abuse' should be replace with 'make use of', 'take advantage of' etc
• CURLY APOSTROPHES

otherwise good job!

[gp]1/2[/gp]

 

[Jimera0]

Goddamit I forgot the apostrophes again -.- I have forgotten that on every single analysis I've done so far. It's just not something I think about immediately. I get the other two they make sense, as "such as" fits better and "abuse" has negative connotations.

In the future when I do the apostrophe thing again (let's face it; I've done it 3 times in a row now I'll probably end up doing it again) make me personally go through the damn thing to replace them so hopefully I'll remember the next time I write something up. I don't want to make you do more work anyway crossing out and replacing them all yourself anyway >.< that isn't really fair for my dumb mistake.

Also just want to say that "are what removesobliterate" Is like you're in my head because I totally would rather use that than the boring "are what removes" :P.

Actually reading through your corrections it seems we have similar tendencies when it comes to word choice. That's always nice since it means my unique tone isn't lost in your corrections :).

Editing the OP with the changes now (via copy-pastable, for once I didn't find any corrections I really disagreed with). Thanks for the check!

VERY LATE EDIT: Just noticed I never changed the header from Quality Control to Copyediting. Oops.

 

[Oglemi]

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[SET]
name: Classic MixNite
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Superpower
move 4: Roost / Earthquake / ExtremeSpeed
item: Life Orb
ability: Multiscale
nature: Rash / Mild
evs: 64 Atk / 252 SpA / 192 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>While the classic MixNite set has fallen out of favor in the face of competition from Salamence and Hydreigon, Dragonite has gained and retained enough perks in BW to set this set apart from those of its faster and more powerful brethren. It still has enough power to 2HKO almost any Pokemon in the OU metagame and is less dependent on Outrage than Salamence and Hydreigon thanks to Superpower, meaning it can take down special and mixed walls without sacrificing itself to revenge killers in the process. Multiscale gives it an edge in certain situations, and Dragonite is the only member of the trio with access to powerful priority in ExtremeSpeed. Perhaps most important of all though is Dragonite's ability to reliably lure in and OHKO physical walls such as Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, and Slowbro, something Salamence and Hydreigon are much less likely to accomplish due to their reputation for packing Fire Blast and Draco Meteor.</p>

<p>Draco Meteor and Fire Blast are the most important moves in the set, as they obliterate the physical walls that Dragonite lures in. Superpower allows Dragonite to reliably finish off foes that survive a Draco Meteor and also provides invaluable coverage against Blissey, Chansey, and Tyranitar. The choice of move in the final slot is a bit of a toss-up, and generally comes down to personal preference and team-specific needs. Roost enables Dragonite to better dismantle defensive teams by being able to recover the HP needed for multiple assaults. However, Earthquake provides key coverage against Pokemon commonly found on rain teams, most notably Jirachi and Tentacruel, who can wall Dragonite otherwise with rain support. It also gives Dragonite a safe attacking option when lowering its stats might not be prudent. ExtremeSpeed is a final option that allows Dragonite to function as a revenge killer in a pinch and enables it to pick off weakened threats such as Jolteon and Alakazam that it cannot stay in on otherwise.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Dragonite absolutely needs a Life Orb for this set to function, or it will not be able to perform its wallbreaking role effectively. The Speed EVs given allow Dragonite to outspeed the many walls that aim to outspeed Jolly Tyranitar, such as Gliscor, Celebi, Jirachi, and Tentacruel, (This is textbook speed creep, which we cannot recommend. Therefore, I've edited the stat spread to just outrun Jolly Tyranitar.) Slightly more Speed EVs can be run to outrun the walls that typically aim to outspeed Jolly Tyranitar, such as Gliscor, Celebi, Jirachi, and Tentacruel, so it can KO them before they can KO or cripple Dragonite back. An alternate spread of 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe can be used with ExtremeSpeed to power it up, but doing so significantly impacts Dragonite's ability to beat the aforementioned walls and other slightly faster Pokemon such as Landorus-T one-on-one. A Rash or Mild nature is chosen to power up Dragonite's main attacking moves without impacting its Speed. Which one you pick depends on whether you want Dragonite to be able to take physical or special hits better, but usually the difference between the two is negligible. Finally, Dragonite can run Outrage in the final slot in order to hit some walls harder than it can with Superpower, but locking Dragonite into Outrage is pretty much a death sentence so long as a single revenge killer remains on the opposing team. Because one of Dragonite's few perks over Salamence is that it doesn't have to go kamikaze with Outrage in order to remove mixed and special walls, this is usually very undesirable.</p>

<p>Any physical attacker that has trouble with physical walls such as Skarmory and Gliscor will greatly appreciate Dragonite's ability to reliably lure them in and obliterate them. Pokemon like Life Orb Mamoswine, Dragon Dance Haxorus, and Bulk Up Conkeldurr greatly appreciate having Skarmory in particular removed, and no other Dragon-type lures in and KOs Skarmory as reliably as Dragonite does. Dragonite itself also greatly appreciates hazard support, with Stealth Rock in particular securing many vital 2HKOs and OHKOs for it. Jirachi is an excellent setter of Stealth Rock that also happens to resist all of Dragonite's weaknesses, making it a great choice for this role. Dragonite loathes Stealth Rock itself, so a spinner is of paramount importance to make the most of this set's hit and run nature. Starmie is a reliable spinner that can also take care of the many Dragon-, Water-, and Ice-type Pokemon that will inevitably attempt to revenge kill Dragonite after it does its job. Forretress is a more defensive alternative that is able to take hits aimed at Dragonite, and can lay down hazards for Dragonite to take advantage of. Additionally, it goes without saying that this Dragonite is very vulnerable to being revenge killed after taking out a target. As such, Pokemon such as Jirachi, Chansey, Vaporeon, and Slowbro that can take hits from would-be revenge killers with ease are very welcome partners to Dragonite. Lastly, with all the residual damage Dragonite is going to be taking, a Pokemon that can pass Wishes to it is greatly appreciated and pairs very well with Multiscale. The aforementioned Jirachi, Chansey, and Vaporeon all do this very well and can easily switch in for Dragonite under most circumstances thanks to good general bulk and a plethora of useful resistances.</p>

notice my comment on speed creep!

[gp]2/2[/gp]

 

[Jimera0]

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[SET]
name: Classic MixNite
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Superpower
move 4: Roost / Earthquake / ExtremeSpeed
item: Life Orb
ability: Multiscale
nature: Rash / Mild
evs: 64 Atk / 252 SpA / 192 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>While the classic MixNite set has fallen out of favor in the face of competition from Salamence and Hydreigon, Dragonite has gained and retained enough perks in BW to set this set apart from those of its faster and more powerful brethren. It still has enough power to 2HKO almost any Pokemon in the OU metagame and is less dependent on Outrage than Salamence and Hydreigon thanks to Superpower, meaning it can take down special and mixed walls without sacrificing itself to revenge killers in the process. Multiscale gives it an edge in certain situations, and Dragonite is the only member of the trio with access to powerful priority in ExtremeSpeed. Perhaps most important of all though is Dragonite's ability to reliably lure in and OHKO physical walls such as Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, and Slowbro, something Salamence and Hydreigon are much less likely to accomplish due to their reputation for packing Fire Blast and Draco Meteor.</p>

<p>Draco Meteor and Fire Blast are the most important moves in the set, as they obliterate the physical walls that Dragonite lures in. Superpower allows Dragonite to reliably finish off foes that survive a Draco Meteor and also provides invaluable coverage against Blissey, Chansey, and Tyranitar. The choice of move in the final slot is a bit of a toss-up, and generally comes down to personal preference and team-specific needs. Roost enables Dragonite to better dismantle defensive teams by being able to recover the HP needed for multiple assaults. However, Earthquake provides key coverage against Pokemon commonly found on rain teams, most notably Jirachi and Tentacruel, who can wall Dragonite otherwise with rain support. It also gives Dragonite a safe attacking option when lowering its stats might not be prudent. ExtremeSpeed is a final option that allows Dragonite to function as a revenge killer in a pinch and enables it to pick off weakened threats such as Jolteon and Alakazam that it cannot stay in on otherwise.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Dragonite absolutely needs a Life Orb for this set to function, or it will not be able to perform its wallbreaking role effectively. The Speed EVs given allow Dragonite to outspeed the many walls that aim to outspeed Jolly Tyranitar, such as Gliscor, Celebi, Jirachi, and Tentacruel, (This is textbook speed creep, which we cannot recommend. Therefore, I've edited the stat spread to just outrun Jolly Tyranitar.) Slightly more Speed EVs can be run to outrun the walls that typically aim to outspeed Jolly Tyranitar, such as Gliscor, Celebi, Jirachi, and Tentacruel, so it can KO them before they can KO or cripple Dragonite back. An alternate spread of 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe can be used with ExtremeSpeed to power it up, but doing so significantly impacts Dragonite's ability to beat the aforementioned walls and other slightly faster Pokemon such as Landorus-T one-on-one. A Rash or Mild nature is chosen to power up Dragonite's main attacking moves without impacting its Speed. Which one you pick depends on whether you want Dragonite to be able to take physical or special hits better, but usually the difference between the two is negligible. Finally, Dragonite can run Outrage in the final slot in order to hit some walls harder than it can with Superpower, but locking Dragonite into Outrage is pretty much a death sentence so long as a single revenge killer remains on the opposing team. Because one of Dragonite's few perks over Salamence is that it doesn't have to go kamikaze with Outrage in order to remove mixed and special walls, this is usually very undesirable.</p>

<p>Any physical attacker that has trouble with physical walls such as Skarmory and Gliscor will greatly appreciate Dragonite's ability to reliably lure them in and obliterate them. Pokemon like Life Orb Mamoswine, Dragon Dance Haxorus, and Bulk Up Conkeldurr greatly appreciate having Skarmory in particular removed, and no other Dragon-type lures in and KOs Skarmory as reliably as Dragonite does. Dragonite itself also greatly appreciates hazard support, with Stealth Rock in particular securing many vital 2HKOs and OHKOs for it. Jirachi is an excellent setter of Stealth Rock that also happens to resist all of Dragonite's weaknesses, making it a great choice for this role. Dragonite loathes Stealth Rock itself, so a spinner is of paramount importance to make the most of this set's hit and run nature. Starmie is a reliable spinner that can also take care of the many Dragon-, Water-, and Ice-type Pokemon that will inevitably attempt to revenge kill Dragonite after it does its job. Forretress is a more defensive alternative that is able to take hits aimed at Dragonite, and can lay down hazards for Dragonite to take advantage of. Additionally, it goes without saying that this Dragonite is very vulnerable to being revenge killed after taking out a target. As such, Pokemon such as Jirachi, Chansey, Vaporeon, and Slowbro that can take hits from would-be revenge killers with ease are very welcome partners to Dragonite. Lastly, with all the residual damage Dragonite is going to be taking, a Pokemon that can pass Wishes to it is greatly appreciated and pairs very well with Multiscale. The aforementioned Jirachi, Chansey, and Vaporeon all do this very well and can easily switch in for Dragonite under most circumstances thanks to good general bulk and a plethora of useful resistances.</p>

notice my comment on speed creep!

[gp]2/2[/gp]

It's not exactly speed creep because you're not aiming to outpace Tyranitar, you're aiming to outpace the threats that outpace tyranitar. Those pokemon I mentioned don't hit that benchmark due to some guy adding in 8 more evs to get the edge; that's their standard spreads we're talking about. The only reason I mention it's outspeeding Pokemon that outspeed jolly ttar is because it's such a common benchmark that outspeeding it is virtually putting you in another speed tier. This isn't just speed creeping; the set NEEDS 196 EVs to function or you might as well not be running any speed evs at all. Sorry but that is STAYING. Also, this thing has been discussed to death by at least 4 different Q/C members, if speed creep was an issue I'm pretty sure someone would've spoken up about it beforehand.

The rest seems fine but seriously, the speed can't change. It'd defeat the whole purpose of why I started this revamp in the first place. The whole idea was to outspeed most walls; turns out most defensive Pokemon with good speed stats put just enough speed to outspeed jolly ttar. You don't run that speed, you don't do your job against 4 or 5 common defensive Pokemon. It simply is not an option.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

It's not exactly speed creep because you're not aiming to outpace Tyranitar, you're aiming to outpace the threats that outpace tyranitar. Those pokemon I mentioned don't hit that benchmark due to some guy adding in 8 more evs to get the edge; that's their standard spreads we're talking about. The only reason I mention it's outspeeding Pokemon that outspeed jolly ttar is because it's such a common benchmark that outspeeding it is virtually putting you in another speed tier. This isn't just speed creeping; the set NEEDS 196 EVs to function or you might as well not be running any speed evs at all. Sorry but that is STAYING. Also, this thing has been discussed to death by at least 4 different Q/C members, if speed creep was an issue I'm pretty sure someone would've spoken up about it beforehand.

The rest seems fine but seriously, the speed can't change. It'd defeat the whole purpose of why I started this revamp in the first place. The whole idea was to outspeed most walls; turns out most defensive Pokemon with good speed stats put just enough speed to outspeed jolly ttar. You don't run that speed, you don't do your job against 4 or 5 common defensive Pokemon. It simply is not an option.

You have just described exactly what speed creep is. There is no reason the standard spread for those Pokemon could be adapted to have more Speed: this is what starts speed creep. Your default EV spread should either be tailored to outrun min Speed or outrun max Speed variants of those Pokemon--in this case, min Speed (or just Tyranitar) since those Pokemon are naturally faster than Dragonite (and commonly run more Speed anyway, especially Gliscor).

For the record, Quality Control decided that this was speed creep on IRC, which prompted Oglemi's comment.

 

[Jimera0]

That's ridiculous. I'm sorry but that definition is ridiculous, because not everything that's worth outspeeding regularly runs 252 or 252+.

Also, let me point this out in particular; this set does not function properly without that extra speed point. It is vital that this set outspeed standard GLISCOR, or it cannot perform its main function of breaking physical walls. That was the benchmark I used when I made the EV spread; I only discovered it was to outspeed max speed Tyranitar when examining speed tiers later to figure out just what my speed was doing for me outside of Gliscor.

I'll also point out that the CB Dragonite spread onsite runs the exact same number of Speed EVs this set does for the exact same reason; landing a 2HKO on Gliscor before it can 2HKO you. Hell, let me quote it for you.

The Speed EVs are given to outspeed max Speed Tyranitar, as well as many other standard threats that only aim to outspeed Tyranitar, such as Jirachi and Gliscor.

The truth is it's the standard threats that outspeed Tyranitar that are the real threat; Jolly Tyranitar just happens to be outsped in the bargain.

Honestly, last night when I was thinking about this post I actually came up with the definition of what you gave me as a fictional example of a speed creep rule gone to far. Something I'd post to point out how silly it is. The fact that you're actually using that definition kind of stuns me. It just goes to show that a lot of Smogon is so afraid of slippery slopes it borders on the ridiculous.

Let me spell this out. Your fear of speed creep harming the quality of analyses is leading to countermeasures that are harming the quality of analyses. If I were to use the spread you mentioned it would SEVERELY impact the quality of the set. I can understand the fear that we'll end up with everything creeping to outspeed everything, but I need to point a flaw in that line of thought. The people looking out for speed creep here are intelligent, experienced players. You don't get to be QC unless you fit that definition. As such we should trust QC members to decide when "speed creep" is acceptable and when it is not. Unless you think that QC members are so untrustworthy as to let speed creep run wild I think they're capable of determining when it is going to far and when it is just plain necessary.

In this particular case, 196 speed EVs are absolutely vital to this sets function. NOT speed creeping here affects the quality of the analysis to the point where you're giving the user bad information and a substandard set that can't beat 4 or 5 common threats it should be beating. As such, this is a good place for an exception. An example of a bad place would be if someone for some reason decided to rewrite the CB Scizor set and decided to use 16 EVs instead of 8 to outspeed all the threats that now try to outspeed 8 Speed EV Scizor. I think pretty much all QC members can see the difference between the two. Some examples might not be so clear cut, but I trust that QC team, especially working together, can work out at which point speed creep is becoming too much on a case by case basis. An absolute rule like the "you can only EV to outspeed maximumly invested Pokemon" rule only serves to hurt the quality of the analyses its trying to protect.

If you really want to discuss this more I suggest we have a more private discussion on IRC. However, this set is not going on site with less than (or more than) 196 Speed EVs. I will NOT post a substandard set on the site in good conscience.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

The most common Gliscor sets nowadays regularly run anywhere between 192 and 252+ Speed. The so-called standard of 72 EVs is a remnant of a past metagame. Many good players also run more than 32 Speed on Celebi, Tentacruel, and Jirachi--especially Jirachi.

The quality of the set is not undermined by adopting an EV spread that will never outrun the Pokemon you have listed. It has already been undermined by the fact that good players will "speed creep" on their own-- that is, commonly run more Speed EVs than dictated by the on-site analysis in order to get the jump on the players who don't bother. Informing readers that a spread is expected to outrun X and Y when it doesn't if X and Y simply add 4 more EVs is misleading and just sets up users for failure. On the other hand, recommending that users run an indeterminate amount of additional Speed within the set comments to outrun min Speed X and Y while cautioning that X and Y can invest enough EVs to outrun all Dragonite portrays this set's functions more accurately.

I'm not sure what the bit about QC is for. Are you talking to me? Neither I nor Oglemi are on OU QC, but we were both present when QC members decided this was unacceptable speed creep.

If the CB Dragonite spread on-site runs the same spread, it is also clearly speed creep and should be rectified.

 

[jc104]

If you wanted someone who was a QC member to comment: I've said several times on IRC that your spread was Speed creeping, but I forgot about it when I approved and I apologise for that. What Eo and Oglemi said is correct.

 

[Jimera0]

It was directed at QC in general, I had no one specific in mind. It was stated to me that QC had decided that it was speed creeping based on that definition, so my message was directed at those who made the decision, not the messengers. Sorry if it seemed I was off target; it really was more of an open argument directed at anyone who disagreed rather than any one person in particular.

Anyway, I see the point of your argument, especially since it's less about avoiding a slippery slope and more about giving good information in the first place. Honestly every time I see someone using a slippery slope as an argument it causes my blood to boil a bit since slippery slope scenarios only occur when you don't regulate them, and considering the amount of regulation that goes into the information and decisions on this site the chances of falling down a slippery slope are very, very slim.

I hadn't thought about it from the point that most good players don't run those specific speed EVs anyway. It makes sense, and it does avoid giving people false assurances so they don't get confused when Gliscor outspeeds their Dragonite. Still, I honestly feel like I'm giving the user bad information by NOT flat out telling them to run 196 Speed evs since it is the optimal speed for this set. Any more and you don't have the power you need, less and you basically loose all hope of beating Gliscor, Celebi and Jirachi unless they run no speed at all. It's like I'll automatically be giving new players who don't know how to creep properly an automatic disadvantage.

Actually that gives me an idea. Why don't we write an article on how to speed creep properly? Since we can't really put the right creep in analyses themselves, an article explaining how it works and how to do it without harming the effectiveness of your Pokemon seems like a good idea. The only opposition to this I could see would be from the mistaken perspective that Speed Creep is bad in and of itself, when the truth is that it's a skill you use to gain an advantage. Hell, I can even include the reasoning you just gave me as an explanation of why you don't see speed creep in analyses on site.

So I guess I'll start work on that after I do the Dragonite analysis cleanup, as long as no one objects.

And I'll use your edit now then Oglemi, now that I understand the reasoning behind it better. You even included a little bit mentioning how speed creeping is beneficial so I don't have to worry about the importance of that extra speed point going completely unnoticed. Sorry if I offended anyone again. Just know that when I argue I'm always targeting the idea, not the people behind it, so as usual no disrespect was intended.

TL:DR
-Accepting edit now, will change status of analysis to done
-I now actually understand the reason speed creep is kept out of analyses, and realize that it's not another goddamn slippery slope argument after all
-I'm going to cue up an article on speed creep to hopefully prevent misunderstandings like mine in the future
-Sorry if I offended anyone again. No insult intended.

 

[Iconic]

i'll upload this now for the sake of having it onsite, just be sure to let GPers know that this has gone through GP after you're done the dragonite revamp so they don't waste their time. thanks for all your work Mr Jimera

DAMN there are a lot of big ass posts in this thread