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Dragonite (Classic MixNite Revamp) [QC: 3/3][GP: 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Jimera0, Apr 10, 2012.

  1. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    [​IMG]
    Never saw it coming.

    [SET]
    name: Classic MixNite
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Superpower
    move 4: Roost / Earthquake / ExtremeSpeed
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Multiscale
    nature: Rash / Mild
    evs: 64 Atk / 252 SpA / 192 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While the classic MixNite set has fallen out of favor in the face of competition from Salamence and Hydreigon, Dragonite has gained and retained enough perks in BW to set this set apart from those of its faster and more powerful brethren. It still has enough power to 2HKO almost any Pokemon in the OU metagame and is less dependent on Outrage than Salamence and Hydreigon thanks to Superpower, meaning it can take down special and mixed walls without sacrificing itself to revenge killers in the process. Multiscale gives it an edge in certain situations, and Dragonite is the only member of the trio with access to powerful priority in ExtremeSpeed. Perhaps most important of all though is Dragonite's ability to reliably lure in and OHKO physical walls such as Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, and Slowbro, something Salamence and Hydreigon are much less likely to accomplish due to their reputation for packing Fire Blast and Draco Meteor.</p>

    <p>Draco Meteor and Fire Blast are the most important moves in the set, as they obliterate the physical walls that Dragonite lures in. Superpower allows Dragonite to reliably finish off foes that survive a Draco Meteor and also provides invaluable coverage against Blissey, Chansey, and Tyranitar. The choice of move in the final slot is a bit of a toss-up, and generally comes down to personal preference and team-specific needs. Roost enables Dragonite to better dismantle defensive teams by being able to recover the HP needed for multiple assaults. However, Earthquake provides key coverage against Pokemon commonly found on rain teams, most notably Jirachi and Tentacruel, who can wall Dragonite otherwise with rain support. It also gives Dragonite a safe attacking option when lowering its stats might not be prudent. ExtremeSpeed is a final option that allows Dragonite to function as a revenge killer in a pinch and enables it to pick off weakened threats such as Jolteon and Alakazam that it cannot stay in on otherwise.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Dragonite absolutely needs a Life Orb for this set to function, or it will not be able to perform its wallbreaking role effectively. Slightly more Speed EVs can be run to outrun the walls that typically aim to outspeed Jolly Tyranitar, such as Gliscor, Celebi, Jirachi, and Tentacruel, so it can KO them before they can KO or cripple Dragonite back. An alternate spread of 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe can be used with ExtremeSpeed to power it up, but doing so significantly impacts Dragonite's ability to beat the aforementioned walls and other slightly faster Pokemon such as Landorus-T one-on-one. A Rash or Mild nature is chosen to power up Dragonite's main attacking moves without impacting on its Speed. Which one you pick depends on whether you want Dragonite to be able to take physical or special hits better, but usually the difference between the two is negligible. Finally, Dragonite can run Outrage in the final slot in order to hit some walls harder than it can with Superpower, but locking Dragonite into Outrage is pretty much a death sentence so long as a single revenge killer remains on the opposing team. Because one of Dragonite’s few perks over Salamence is that it doesn't have to go kamikaze with Outrage in order to remove mixed and special walls, this is usually very undesirable.</p>

    <p>Any physical attacker that has trouble with physical walls such as Skarmory and Gliscor will greatly appreciate Dragonite's ability to reliably lure them in and obliterate them. Pokemon like Life Orb Mamoswine, Dragon Dance Haxorus, and Bulk Up Conkeldurr greatly appreciate having Skarmory in particular removed, and no other Dragon-type lures in and KOs Skarmory as reliably as Dragonite does. Dragonite itself also greatly appreciates hazard support, with Stealth Rock in particular securing many vital 2HKOs and OHKOs for it. Jirachi is an excellent setter of Stealth Rock that also happens to resist all of Dragonite's weaknesses, making it a great choice for this role. Dragonite loathes Stealth Rock itself, so a spinner is of paramount importance to make the most of this set's hit and run nature. Starmie is a reliable spinner that can also take care of the many Dragon-, Water-, and Ice-type Pokemon that will inevitably attempt to revenge kill Dragonite after it does its job. Forretress is a more defensive alternative that is able to take hits aimed at Dragonite, and can lay down hazards for Dragonite to take advantage of. Additionally, it goes without saying that this Dragonite is very vulnerable to being revenge killed after taking out a target. As such, Pokemon such as Jirachi, Chansey, Vaporeon, and Slowbro that can take hits from would-be revenge killers with ease are very welcome partners to Dragonite. Lastly, with all the residual damage Dragonite is going to be taking, a Pokemon that can pass Wishes to it is greatly appreciated and pairs very well with Multiscale. The aforementioned Jirachi, Chansey, and Vaporeon all do this very well and can easily switch in for Dragonite under most circumstances thanks to good general bulk and a plethora of useful resistances.</p>
  2. JellyOs

    JellyOs

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    Personally, I say do a re-write of the Mixed Attacker set and call it a day. I mean, you're lacking so heavily in the speed department and running the same moveset as Salamence, all for Multiscale and that "surprise factor" so many sets in C&C allegedly have that make them viable. While this actually does surprise an opponent, is it worth that speed drop? This NEEDS Extremespeed, just for those two reasons. To differentiate itself and to make up for that lackluster speed. That of course forces you to lose a move, either EQ or Outrage. I'd personally drop Outrage, as so many Heatran switch into Nite. After that you're looking at a one moveslot difference from the "Classic" set (why is it classic when there's no "new" Mixed set?). I say change the on-site one (with that awful EV spread that lets you outspeed nothing ;-;). Maybe go Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Earthquake / Superpower, Extremespeed / Outrage / Roost.

    I don't say to merge them because yours is bad, I say to merge them because the on-site on looks like it can't accomplish much besides hit this on the switch.
  3. dice

    dice infinite bliss flows but does not ebb
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    hi (open)
    why are you spamming bad sets.


    Okay so, Dragonite's defining point is Multiscale and super +2 prio. This set p much lacks both if using EQ. It's the standard MixNite on site except worse and a one move change doesn't warrant a new set especially if it's not even a good one.

    100th post yay
  4. JellyOs

    JellyOs

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    Not quite. It's not a bad set, in fact the one on site is actually not the best. It can't outrun ANYTHING that's not Ferrothorn, so a little speed is good. I think EQ>Superpower is the best option because 1)Hit Jirachi 2)MULTISCALE. The current on-site analysis doesn't even abuse Dragonite's selling point over Salamence! I really think it should be reworked (as in, the current MixNite set) and replaced with this set, although changed. Basically just update the MixNite set with EQ and Multiscale and add some Speed EVs, because 252 Atk / 252 S.Atk just seems so inefficient to me ;-;
  5. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    As I said, I have nothing against somehow integrating this set into the current one onsite.

    And this set is not "bad". Not in the slightest; it's one of the single most effective methods to remove physical walls I've ever used.

    As for "using what Dragonite has over Salamence" I must emphasize, that doing so does NOT have to mean using the things Salamence doesn't have. The very fact that Dragonite draws out defensive Steels while Salamence doesn't (especially higher on the ladder) is enough of a reason to use this over Salamence. Don't forget that Salamence isn't really much more powerful than Dragonite (10 points in SpA and a whopping 1 point in attack), so the key difference between the two when it comes to wallbreaking potential is speed and expectations. When people see Salamence in team preview or see it hit the field, it has a certain psychological impact that makes the opponent play more carefully to make sure it doesn't get a chance to come in and blast your team to smitherines. When it DOES get in the opponent automatically goes into damage control mode. Dragonite has none of that burden. It's known as a set up sweeper that hits pretty weakly initially, or a CB user. Both cases draw out physicaly defensive Pokemon, especially ones that can phaze, as normally that's the safest move to make (unless you're in rain, then people expect Hurricane). This set capitalizes on that feature making it an incredible lure, something Salamence can never claim to do. Extremespeed is not needed for this goal; it's most useful on sweeping sets or sets with massive investment in attack (like CB) where it's the most use. On this set it just takes up a slot you need for coverage or healing (since Extremespeed provides NO extra coverage for wallbreaking purposes).

    Basically what I'm saying is that there's no need to go out of our way to distinguish this set from the Salamence set by giving it moves in a futile attempt to capitalize on Extremespeed or Multiscale. The very fact that it's Dragonite running it, not Salamence, is enough to distinguish it from Salamence because teams react to the two in completely different ways; and you can use that reaction to your advantage with this Dragonite set. THAT is what this set brings. It's designed to lure in and slaughter walls, which is something it does admirably.
  6. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
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    I'm frankly having a difficult time trying to determine where I'd fit this Dragonite in on any old team, but it has potential.

    Please post some non-cherry picked logs on this Dragonite's performance, and explain in each successful scenario on how the standard Dragonite would fare differently if it took its place.
  7. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    I'd have to go testing with it again to get you logs (it honestly didn't perform well on my team because my team was way too stall oriented for such a short lived mon to fit, this was my own fault but it did show how ridiculously effective at removing walls this thing is).

    I do have to ask what you mean by "standard Dragonite" thoug. Do you mean the classic mixnite already on site, or some other dragonite set? Can't do a proper comparison unless I know what I'm comparing it to eh? Anyway, if you're looking to compare it to the Classic MixNite on site, there won't be a massive amount of difference. Honestly at this point I'm simply thinking that set needs an update, since it's... well it's not very good. This one works I know, and I'm really looking forward to testing it along with MoxieMence, seeing as I can easily lure in and demolish the steels stopping MoxieMence from sweeping with Outrage >:D
  8. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E
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    I wonder, why would you ever use this over the exact same Salamence? Multiscale isn't exactly enough to use it over Salamence, considering Life Orb is an absolute necessity and with it Multiscale will rarely be intact. Dragonite has less Speed, Attack, and Special Attack so if you want to use a set like this over Salamence you're going to have something unique, namely from its movepool with Superpower and/or ExtremeSpeed. Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Outrage / Roost is absolutely inferior to Salamence who can run the same moveset with more Speed, Special Attack, and Attack, as well as more physical bulk thanks to Intimidate.
  9. MetaGross66

    MetaGross66

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    The fact that it's Dragonite doing the mixed attacking and not Salamence is what I think he was trying to get at. There is a psychological advantage to using mixnite over mixmence in that it is generally unexpected for Dragonite to go mixed. I've had tons of success using this particular set as a lead to guarantee Multiscale is intact (thus guaranteeing me at least one hit) and to dish out immense damage early on. The way I used it, Multiscale was supposed to be a one time buffer against a potentially fatal blow for Dragonite to either KO back or severely cripple the opposition. The best part of it is that it worked. It usually did what it had to do before dying, and Extremespeed capitalized on that suicidal nature which is why I suggest you put it into the set somehow as it will deal a crippling blow to Pokemon like Latios, Jolteon, and Infernape who will attempt to revenge kill you. This makes it useful against not only balanced and bulky offense teams, but also HO as you will usually be starting the match killing one Pokemon if not more and severely crippling another at the cost of just one Pokemon.
  10. dragonuser

    dragonuser The only thing I look up to is the sky
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    This set really just seems like a faster variant of the classic mixnite set onsite atm. It differentiates in some minor movepool differences etc, but its seems like you would play him very similarly to the classic mixnite set. Couldn't you just add this EV spread to the classic mixnite set description and slash outrage on as well? I do feel like some form of this set/EV spread does need to go onsite, as faster mixnite is deadly and can help makeup for some of the shortcomings of the slower variant.
  11. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    As I mention at the very top of the OP (It's bolded AND underlined) I am not just open to this idea; I suggested it before anyone even posted. I understand this set is very similar to the slower one on-site, but it is VERY clear to me that the set that is on site is NOT optimal. As such, I am quite open prospect of somehow merging this with that one, I just want a mod's go ahead before I get really into it.

    @Tomahawk
    Metagross66 pretty much explains it; it's the fact that, unlike Salamence, Dragonite draws in walls. When Salamence hits the field, people KNOW to expect shit like Fire Blast and Draco Meteor, and play accordingly. Dragonite? naw, they expect Bulky Dragonite, or CB, not mixed. No one uses mixed outside of rain these days precisely BECAUSE Salamence appears to outclass it. And that's how you nail them. When I used Dragonite on my last team, it would almost always KO at least 2 Pokemon per a match. The only problem was that my Team couldn't capitalize on that, which is why it didn't fit. Put on a team that capitalizes on the removal of things like Skarmory, Gliscor and the like, and BAM its golden. Salamence may technically be able to take out these Pokemon too, but they're not exactly likely to stay in on him unless their purpose has already expired. Dragonite, on the other hand, won't just be less likely to scare them out... it'll be likely to actually draw them in. Much more reliable for actually removing them from play, you see?

    On an interesting side note, I find it amusing that Metagross66 has a piture of a dragon for their avatar while dragonuser has a picture of a Metagross as his avatar.
  12. JellyOs

    JellyOs

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    And to that, I'd like to point out Sunny Day Ninetales. Best set ever when first conceived, any no one EVER expected it. It went on site and then everyone starting knowing "This is a good player, he'll use Sunny Day to surprise me...". I feel like that might happen with this, kinda like Mew too (no pun intended). So many possibilities for Dragonite, but once this "surprise" set becomes big it no longer belongs on site.
  13. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    Not necessarily. Let's keep in mind the fact that unlike Ninetails, Dragonite is dangerous. REALLY dangerous. Now your will be forced to consider the possibility that an opponent is running a mixed set whenever they see your Dragonite... another level of mind game that can only work in your favor, because if they predict wrong they lose out of something vital. Dragonite is one of those Pokemon where your action when it first hits the field can be game deciding, meaning more options make it that much more difficult to deal with. Indeed, it might well make Dragonite's OTHER sets more deadly simply by this set being a possibility. Not to mention a very similar set is already on site and people are just as fooled by it now as they were before, so if it stays at the same level of popularity... well then there won't be a change at all anyway.
  14. blunder

    blunder

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    While I do like this set a lot, I prefer the old MixNite Set, due to its versatility and offense. IMO Wallbreaker Dragonite does not need speed and E-speed is almost always a must to take on faster threats. Not so sure about this set, but the idea seems nice
  15. ginganinja

    ginganinja Call me and I'll come
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    The Quality Control team is still waiting on this. Personally, I am in favour of the Classic Nite set perhaps getting a makeover but atm, I really like Extreme Speed on wallbreaker Nite, since its one of the best things it has over Mence but I will wait on your logs to see how effective it is.
  16. yee

    yee
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    I agree with all of this. The bolded part is a textbook definition of what makes a set OO material- it may be outclassed on paper but it will catch people off guard and most importantly is a viable mon on its own.
  17. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Yeah, apart from your one use Multiscale (thanks to Life Orb), and use of Outrage, this is pretty much MixMence and Classic MixNite rolled into one. I'd say we just slash Outrage onto the Classic MixNite set on-site at the moment and we'll be all good. We do NOT need more Dragonite sets =O.
  18. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    Well I've been waiting to get some mod input before I really get rolling on this as to whether to combine these or not and it seems that mods are in favor of rolling this together with the classic Mixnite set, which is fine by me.

    I haven't really tested it much since I first used it mind you (primarily due to time, stress, other projects...) and I have never used the current set with Extreme Speed for comparison. I will get on it soon now that there's finally some interest in this again, but you'll have to give me some time... I've kind of gotten myself into way too many things at once and it's sort of overwhelming me.

    If I test it and find that the old one is superior, then I'll probably just close the thread and have it moved to Locked/outdated. I'm not interested in putting up useless analyses on site either. Until then, feel free to add anything to the discussion you want to.

    Oh, and shrang, I'd just like to point out that Life orb is the item on the current set so it's no different from it in that regard. Really the biggest difference is in the spread; mine utilizes Speed EVs, while the other one forgoes all speed to pump up attacks and uses ExtremeSpeed for faster threats. Basically, this one loses more easily to fast but frail threats while the other loses more easily to moderately fast Pokemon that it can't kill with Extremespeed (like Gliscor and Heatran). Really, I myself have leaned towards simply rewriting the old set right from early on due to the similarities. I just need to check that it's worth it first.
  19. Iconic

    Iconic
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    i'm going to have to strongly disagree with this whole "dragonite lures steels only to kill them with fire blast" notion. dragonite's best sets are cb and offensive dragon dance, both of which ALWAYS carry fire punch. the only steel that is actually safe is heatran (2hkoed by cb outage though). skarmory has to eat a +1 fire punch and whirlwind dragonite away, and if sr is up this leaves it ~50% or a bit less, rendering it unable to wall dragonite again. ferro, scizor, jirachi... all get smoked by fire punch, which dragonite always carries. i mean i don't disagree that fire blast is a good attack on dragonite but this is more of a clarification thing. as an aside, with scarf mence becoming more popular, i would probably feel more safe bringing in skarm on mence than dragonite these days...

    the point i'm trying to make is that neither dragonite nor salamence lure steels more frequently/infrequently than the other, so you have to inevitably compare mixnite and mixmence to one another on an equal playing field. with that in mind, this set is pretty outclassed by salamence. the one distinguishing characteristic dragonite has is multiscale, which is useless with LO.

    however, mixnite is not bad at all. i would, however, prefer that the onsite mixnite set reflects dragonite's strengths over salamence. the 'surprise' factor is good considering physical dragonite are everywhere, but mixmence is also quite surprising. i think the best thing to do here is just revamp the current mixnite set. your ev spread is far superior and a mention of outrage is pretty crucial, but superpower really needs to be a primary move and extremespeed needs a mention for sure. i think you should replace the current mixnite analysis onsite with this set

    [SET]
    name: Mixed Attacker (Classic)
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Superpower
    move 4: Outrage / ExtremeSpeed / Roost
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Inner Focus
    nature: Naughty
    evs: 60 Atk / 252 SpA / 196 Spe

    maybe bump up the attack evs to ohko 252/252+ blissey after stealth rock by taking a few EVs out of special attack. not a huge deal though since blissey is probably switching in on draco meteor or fire blast anyways

    tldr: rewrite this analysis by combining it with the current onsite mixnite set because they both have good things about them but are missing important points from each other
  20. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    Alright, nice to have something so solid suggested Iconic, glad you took such a direct approach.

    I would like to point out though that Skarmory can take a +1 fire Punch without too much difficulty, and that I called upon my own Skarmory to do so regularly when I was using my stall team a while back. Most people know this and so Skarmory is a common switch in. I would also like to point out that mixed Salamence outside of rain is still a lot more common than Dragonite, and Salamence almost ALWAYS carries fire blast. Hell, even the physical Moxiemence sets tend to carry it! As such Dragonite still does lure in physical walls much more frequently, especially on weather-less teams.

    I like the set though. I still need to test it though, as I've still been rather busy the past little while. I hope you can bear with me while I work on projects with more solid deadlines in the meantime, as this set isn't exactly top priority.
  21. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    I would slash Earthquake with Superpower - Outrage already takes care of most monsters (Chansey, Blissey, Tyranitar, Gastrodon, etc) that would come in to sponge special hits anyways - Superpower is rather redundant. Earthquake, in the other hand, does let Dragonite retain MultiScale and beat Heatran and Jirachi (in rain) better.

    Outrage seems like the key to this team's success, giving Dragonite ample of firepower even after its Special Attack is halved after launching a Draco Meteor. I'd personally de-slash ExtremeSpeed and Roost and simply give them AC mentions.

    Also it may be worth it to move 4 SpA EVs into Atk to get that extra stat point (350 -> 352). The loss in 1 point in Special Attack is non-consequential.
  22. ginganinja

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    I don't quite agree with this. Sure, I can live with them being a slash, but Super Power actually does MORE to shit like Chansey, and doesn't lock you in with Outrage. Against a well played Stall team, iv seen players bring in Chansey, you can Outrage, however that Forry / Skarm is getting up those hazards next turn (and you just barely 2KO Chansey), while Superpower bypasses this, making it much harder to handle for defensive teams. "Luring the Outrage" is a strategy that many defensive teams attempt to use, and yea, I don't believe Superpower is redundant.
  23. Pocket

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    I'm fine with that, but Earthquake should be slashed with Superpower - Superpower is dispensable imo.
  24. PttP

    PttP Shoutout to the sidewalk for keeping me off the streets
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    i personally would much rather have a ohko on ttar with superpower rather than hitting it for a lot of damage then getting ohkod in return by stone edge but i dunno thats just me.

    besides honestly what is heatran gonna do to a dnite and jirachi still beats dnite with ice punch as it survives a eq (at least iirc)

    and getting locked into outrage unnecessarily sucks these days
  25. Red3mpti0n

    Red3mpti0n

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    Well im seeing a lot of talk of, "What does this dnite have over mence and classic mixnite?" And it's true, they overlap quite a bit. While testing this out, I stumbled upon this idea and I think we overlooked a major niche of Dragonite's: its performance in RAIN.

    Now, I know what you're thinking: "Not another rain set, please," but hear me out. I think this set could honestly replace the rain attacker set on-site;

    [SET]
    Name: MixNite (Rain)
    Move 1: Hurricane
    Move 2: Thunder
    Move 3: Earthquake/Superpower
    Move 4: ExtremeSpeed/Roost
    Item: Life Orb/Leftovers
    Ability: Multiscale/Inner Focus
    Nature: Mild
    EVs: 108 Atk/232 SpA/168 Spe

    Just mentioning STAB Hurricane completely distinguishes Dragonite as a wallbreaker, something the Classic MixNite and Mence would kill for. Hurricane gives Dragonite the ability to 2hko the likes of Standard Ferrothorn, Latias, Specially Defensive Forretress and pretty much anything that doesn't resist it. It also allows Dragonite to forgo Draco Meteor in favor of a more reliable, all-purpose STAB. Now that's a great thing, but I think the most interesting move on the set is Thunder. Thunder allows Dragonite to dismantle rain stall as Jimera0 originally stated, demolishing Politoed, Vaporeon, Bulky Rotom-W, Tentacruel, Jellicent and also Skarm, which Fire Blast fails to do in rain. The combination of 30% confusion and paralysis can be a nightmare to face as well if your opponent lacks a cleric, not to mention this RainTank attack combination is coupled with a strong mixed attacking prowess the RainTank set fails to bring.

    EQ and Superpower both 2hko Tyranitar and Heatran, respectively, with the given EVs (SR and a layer of spikes for Heatran). Haven't tried Outrage or Waterfall, but they're options. Whether EQ or Superpower I see the potential of running both together since ExtremeSpeed isn't helping break any walls. As far as EVs, the speed was only for Breloom, so the spread could use a revamp. I know it shifts the focus of the original set, but it is arguably just as hard to wall and I think it's the set's best shot at distinguishing itself from Classic MixNite and other wallbreakers. Im fairly new here so tell me what you guys think.

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