Dragonite Cleanup [QC: 0/3]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Jimera0, Aug 14, 2012.

  1. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming The truth is in my hands
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    INCOMING!!!

    Over the past few weeks, the qc team has been working on Dragonite, and while they’ve been working, we've slowly gone through each of its sets. Fortunately we've more or less finished right now. I'm going to be posting on their behalf. Prepare yourself...!

    Overview

    • Genesect needs a strong mention here. It hinders Dragonite pretty badly and is pretty much everywhere. The overview needs a revamp since it's outdated.

    Offensive Dragon Dance

    • You should mention that Adamant Dragonite is outsped by Choice Scarf Politoed.
    • Set needs to mention that the existence of Genesect is a serious thorn on its side. Genesect's omnipresence is annoying after MS has been used, because it will consistently revenge kill it. The name change is fine
      • Replace the Virizion with Forretress.

      • Quagsire is no longer relevant in OU. Replace its mention with Jellicent & Vaporeon, both of whom are ohkoed by +1 LO Outrage.

    Bulky Dragon Dance

    • No objections here. This set is getting scrapped, and the remains are being moved to the AC of the Dragon Dance set.

    Choice Band

    • Keep Adamant as the primary nature and mention Jolly in AC. You need Adamant to get several KOs (the guaranted ohko on defensive Politoed after SR, the guaranteed 2hko on skarm with fire punch after SR) and it just dishes out ridiculous damage on average. Max speed Heatran is basically the only reason why Jolly would be considered (a short mention on how Jolly Dnite outspeeds Heatran should suffice). Incidentally, Adamant Outrage 2hkoes 0hp heatran after SR (relevant against modest tran i suppose). Everything else is good. Remove the Hitmontop mention.

    • Forretress needs a bigger mention. It's the de-facto partner Dragon-type Choice Banders. Forretress can remove the hazards that have been set up by the likes of Ferrothorn, Deoxys-D and Forretress that switch into Outrage and it has good defensive synergy with Dragonite. (also helps with that SR weakness)

    Parashuffler

    • Toss out the Hitmontop mention. Replace its mention with standard spinners (Tentacruel / Forretress / Starmie)

    Mixed Attacker (Rain)

    The main set should look like this:

    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Superpower / Aqua Tail / Earthquake
    move 3: Thunder
    move 4: Roost / Extreme Speed / Outrage

    • Superpower destroys Tyranitar / damages Ferrothorn. Aqua Tail is a pseudo STAB move in the rain and it primarily targets Thundurus-T and specially defensive Gliscor, but its weak outside of rain. You can't really pass up Thunder in the rain. Roost and Extremespeed are interchangeable (healing vs priority) while Outrage is just a strong physical attacking move (smacks around Blissey if you're not using Superpower and Thundurus-T if you are using Superpower)
    • Dragonite should be using 180 Speed EVs to outspeed max speed Timid Magnezone.

    Tank (Rain)

    • Just use the a Calm 252 HP / 252 SpD spread. The special attack EVs are unnecessary.

    Mixed Attacker (Classic)/ Classic MixNite

    • So QC as a whole decided to straight up remove Mixed Dragonite. While every single set can cling onto the fact they're "unique" this set is straight up worse than Salamence and Hydreigon. Yes, Multiscale is differentiating factor, however you're not going to keep MS for more than 1 turn on average. Mixed Attacker Dragonite isn't a bad set, but it's an opportunity cost on Dragonite, moreso than any of its other sets. We actually tested this set, and it was very disappointing.
    Tank

    • Go ahead and remove the 12 speed evs and dump them into hp / spa.

    Checks and Counters

    • Genesect needs a major mention here. It's Dragonite's best offensive counter, and its omnipresent. It shouldn't be placed in the same category as the other scarfers since they're marginal checks at best.
  2. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
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    Err, like I said Roost is a really bad option on Mixed Rain Nite; it just doesn't have the bulk to keep it intact, especially with LO recoil breaking it every turn it attacks. The turn it uses to heal is better off spent just attacking. Roost should be AC mention at best, and definitely NOT the primary slash of the fourth set. It much rather have the extra coverage to use in Sun or the speed priority to pick off weakened faster threats.

    And Mixed DNite should stay - it gets the job done. Whether or not its outclassed by Hydreigon, who also has access to Superpower, is arguable, but in the end of the day, it's still a darn effective wallbreaker set and destroys physial walls with ease (much better than the CB set).

    Idk why we're keeping the Tank set, though - nobody uses it, and there's nothing extraordinary about this set. Some explanation is needed here.
  3. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    I agree with most of the stuff, except for the stuff Pocket has already mentioned. I agree with him on everything except MAYBE the Tank set, and that's only because I haven't gotten around to testing it yet.

    Pocket is absolutely correct about Roost; I have used it maybe twice in all the battles I've used either mixed set. It's even more useless on the rain set because of the coverage you're losing against Sun teams. As one of Rain's few solid answers to most sun sweepers, Dragonite NEEDS a move that's reliable in Sun. Without it you're making yourself much more vulnerable to Sun than you need to be for an ability to heal yourself you'll almost never find the opportunity to use.

    Mixed Dnite is being grossly under-appreciated. I've ended up using it well past my testing period and the team I tested it on has become the single most effective team I've ever made, with something like a 7:1 win loss ratio. Dragonite is a huge part of that success, because unlike Hydreigon and Salamence it is capable of taking down special walls WITHOUT locking itself into Outrage. I cannot stress how important this is, as it frequently allows Dragonite to destroy multiple walls per a match instead of just one or two. It also makes it less of a suicide bomber and more of a hit and run attacker. Not to mention the ability it has to carry priority and still break down walls, something no other Dragon-type can do. Then there is the fact that, as I said, nothing lures in physical walls (particularly steels) like Dragonite does. It's not outclassed; it has a slightly different niche. If you slam it into the same spot you previously had MixMence or Mixed Hydreigon in then of course it won't work because you're trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Put on a team that benefits from its unique advantages, MixNite shines. And as long as I'm not alone in this opinion it's not going anywhere.
  4. Jukain

    Jukain literally jesus
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    I'm going to have to agree with Jimera0 on MixNite, I don't see why not keep it, and the niche it occupies of being able to bypass special walls without Outrage is very real and is imo worth keeping the set for.
  5. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming The truth is in my hands
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    I don't see the harm in keeping Roost. Yes, you're not likely roost in most matches, but it's important to have it as an option so you can use it when you DO need it. Remember, the point of Roost on that set isn't to replenish Multiscale, its used to keep Dragonite alive throughout the match, Multiscale is just a bonus. The 4th slot is mostly filler anyway, Dragonite more or less accomplishes its job with the 3 moves already listed, and the 4th slot is entirely dependant on the Dragonite user. If you feel that strongly about Roost, bring it up when and we can talk about it in detail on IRC.

    It's a crutch set. I know that it's a good set in practice (pretty all of Dragonites sets are "good"), but you're going to have to come up with a better reason than that to keep around because its presently the only set that is straight up outclassed by another pokemon (Hydreigon).

    It's a good set. Depends on the team and such, but the tank set have very strong staying power due to all of that bulk. It's less oriented on getting kills and more oriented on spreading paralysis, and messing up teams in general. I know for a fact that it's been used by tournament players as well, and they can vouch for this sets success.

    Mixnite is a crutch, and it's a set I don't think we should be encouraging in C&C. There is no real reason to use mixnite over Hydreigon (and to a lesser extent Salamence). Just so we're clear, Hydreigon doesn't need to rely on outrage to destroy special walls, since it gets Superpower. "The ability to lure in physical walls" isn't a strong argument for me since it doesn't come into play too often. In practice, your opponent will throw steel-types onto Dragonite before switching into a physical wall. Speaking of physical walls, Hippowdown is practically non-existant, and Gliscor is a bad initial switch into Dragonite period; modern BW2 teams tend to check Dragonite by revenge killing it, or via pivot switches.

    The reason why I prefer Hydreigon & Salamence and that it doesn't matter what the game state looks like at any point, they'll still kick ass, but mixnite only shines for one turn, and for the rest of the battle you're basically using an inferior Hydreigon. That one turn is questionable because you're opponent might not switch in a physical wall into Dragonite, and they might just throw a steel-type onto him.

    Also, I don't think I like your attitude; The QC team has complete jurisdiction of what goes onsite, you cannot prevent that from happening. Now i'm only telling you to remove mxnite, i'm not forcing you to immediately do it. You're welcome to argue to keep it onsite, but the majority of QC is set on removing it.
  6. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    Well Pocket for one is against removing it, and I haven't seen any other QC speak up about it yet so I don't know about them. While I don't think you're lying or anything, I'd like to hear it from the horse's mouth before I take it into consideration.

    And while Hydreigon does get Superpower it has a LOT less power behind that superpower with 25 less base attack. That's going to make a difference with say, Chansey. It also has distinctly different typing, which makes for different type synergy Dragonite can switch in on fighting type moves wheras Hydreigon is committing suicide if it does. This alone allows it to occupy a different niche on a team. While these Pokemon might not be built to take attacks they still need opportunities to switch in and Dragonite and Hydreigon have very different ones due to that key typing difference.

    And of course, Hydreigon doesn't get Extreme Speed, a very valuable option on Dragonite that nothing else like it can run. That Extreme Speed might not be super powerful but it can be utterly invaluable at times, at it does enough to provide noticeable protection against frail threats late game. While I typically run EQ for the extra coverage and ability to attack lots of targets without lowering my stats or blowing my cover, there's been more than a few instances where I know ES could have been very useful. How's that for late game presence?

    As for Roost on the rain set I maintain that you miss the move-slot it takes up more often than you actually need it. This is primarily due to the fact that sun teams are pretty common and without ES or EQ you're kind of screwed against them. While I'm not insisting it be moved to AC, it should definitely not be the primary slash.

    I'll take your word on the tank set, I just hadn't used it or seen it in use myself so I had no way to judge it. I'll probably test it at some point just so I can better make any changes in wording or whatever I need to. Just in case, you know?
  7. shrang

    shrang OM OM OM
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    Basically, when we decided that we'd remove Classic MixNite, it wasn't really a question of "is this set bad" but more of a "we want to remove two sets from the analysis, which two are the most expendable?" We all thought Dragonite's analysis was getting too bloated, and some trimming needed to be done. Bulky DD went first. Then we discussed which one had to go. We decided on Classic MixNite, because as mentioned, it is the one that is the most "outclassed" set that Dragonite has. Yes, we know it isn't completely outclassed because it does have its own niche (small as it is), but in general, if you want to run that set, you'll get better results from Salamence and Hydreigon in the majority of cases. Again, we're not saying it's bad, but it is the set on the analysis which has the least of a niche out of all of them, thus it was removed. Think of this like your university entrance exams. We set the bar of including students into our course at a exam mark of 99/100. Classic MixNite got 98/100. While 98/100 is still an excellent score, it fell short of our cut-off therefore it wasn't included.
  8. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    Ah alright, that gives me a better idea of the thought process behind it.

    If that's the case I can see your point. Of course though we'd have to make a fairly large OO mention for it, because I really don't want it to be forgotten. By "rather large" I mean a full paragraph only btw, which for OO is pretty big :P. Just basically say Dragonite can run a mixed set like Salamence or Hydreigon that is effective and lures in physical walls better than the other two, but after the first turn is generally outclassed by them outside of Extremespeed. Hell, we could just slightly expand on that sentence I just wrote and that should sum it up in a nutshell. It's a shame to see all the work I put into that set go down the drain but hey, that's just the way the cookie crumbles you know? At least I got some experience out of it and I certainly learned a lot while making it.

    Now that that's settled I can probably start writing up some skeletons or maybe just skip right to the full rewrites. However I really do still want to test out that Tank set. I really want to know just how that thing plays, so I can finally call myself an expert on all things Dragonite :P.

    Oh, and we were talking about parashuffler a little back, just want to say that the results of my testing with different move layouts other than the current one didn't really impress. I generally found myself wishing I had the original layout rather than the the other options. While Flamethrower/Fire Blast can keep their AC mention, I'm not going to slash them unless I hear a lot of knowledgeable and well explained opinions to the contrary. Or maybe just one really good one :P basically you'll have to convince me otherwise or at least make me decide it's close enough that it doesn't matter.
  9. ginganinja

    ginganinja Goodbye
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    Slightly confused here, but I still want a fire move being slashed in the 2nd slot with Thunder Wave. From experience, its annoying whenever your opponent runs Ferrothorn / Forry / Skarmory whatever and you cannot touch them. Not only does it disrupt your phazing chain (you need to get your spinner in to get rid of that mammoth amount of hazards), but they also can take Dragon Tails fairly easily, and just generally act like a faggot. I also rather like Flamethrower since it decreases the strain on my spinner (if I choose to run one, with Flamethrower I would argue its not as necessary which frees up a slot). I don't think I (and other QC members) are asking for the world here. I know from experience and from other players that it has been used to success, and I personally would like it if it got a slash :)
  10. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    Well I would like to point out that teammates can easily solve the issue of Ferrothorn, forry or skarmory. Magnezone alone beats all 3 and can actually trap them. And you don't need to switch out when someone starts setting up hazards. Usually, I just ignore their hazard setting and keep doing what I'm doing. I'll deal with the hazards AFTER Dragonite is done; no reason to switch it out and go through the ordeal of getting it in safely again (which is an ordeal thanks to SR and the threat of status). Just keep phazing until everything except the Steel is dead or severely weakened!

    But I'm not super adverse to Flamethrower being slashed or anything, I just didn't think anyone was still set on it. If it is true that most of QC wants it slashed, then sure I'll slash it and move the description of what it does outside of AC. Easy enough. I'm just pointing out that most of the time I find myself regretting not having thunder wave whenever a sweeper decides to switch in. I find that ends my shuffling spree a lot more frequently than steels do. The steels might not take much from your attacks, but they also don't do much back. When your goal is shuffling, nothing short of a substitute or taunt is going to stop you from doing just that.

    EDIT: Currently writing up skeletons in a word document. It's taking longer than I expected so it's likely to be a couple days before I get them up.
  11. shrang

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    There's one thing we touched on in QC meetings which I don't think has been mentioned here. It's not a big deal at all, but I would personally like to see an offensive spread being mentioned in the AC of SubDD (80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe Jolly). While the current spread is definitely good for letting you set up more easily, I personally like running max attack simply because you can start sweeping a lot sooner. It's easier to set to something like +6/+6 with the current spread, but when you use the max Attack spread, you don't have to get to +6/+6 most of the time, instead you can easily start sweeping at +2/+2 most of the time, at most +3/+3. It's a bit like using CM RestTalk Giratina-A vs CM RestTalk Giratina-O. You can start sweeping with less boosts in exchange for bulk (One Calm Mind from mono-attacking Giratina-O is hitting about the same as three from mono-attacking Giratina-A). If you're the last Pokemon, you're starting to look at stuff like 2HKOs on Skarmory and Heatran and what not. When you start sweeping more quickly, you're really cutting down on the chances that hax will start affecting your game.
  12. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    just going to copy and paste what I changed the start of the OP to:

  13. Harsha

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    252 HP / 72 Def / 184 Spe with a Careful nature for the SubDD set is what QC has agreed on because it gives a lot of defensiveness to Dragonite (takes Iron Head from standard specially defensive Jirachi and keeps the Substitute up) while retaining enough Speed to beat out Starmie at +1. Please remove shrang's spread from the set and AC mention the spread of 252 HP / 80 SpD / 176 Spe with Jolly to beat out Choice Scarf Politoed and Jolteon. Finally, please remove Dragon Claw from the main Choice Band set and add it to the AC. These are the changes QC has agreed on, if you need extra info, PM or VM one of us. Thanks!
  14. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    Alright those all seem reasonable. Definitely being able to set up on the omnipresent Specially Defensive Jirachi will be hugely useful for Sub DD. Agree with the Dragon Claw thing, since it just doesn't have enough power to be worth using most of the time.

    Editing it now, you can do the QC checks as if I had already implemented the stuff now if anyone happens to read this while I'm in the process of editing.
  15. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
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    Overview
    ~ It's worth mentioning that MultiScale coupled with its weakness to SR pretty much demand Rapid Spin support

    Dragon Dance
    ~ Can we really say that this meta is slow anymore with mons like Latis and Tornadus-T?
    ~ Mention that Life Orb guarantees a 2HKO on Skarmory with +1 Fire Punch and pretty much OHKOs Skarmory in the Sun (~81% of the time with SR support).
    ~ Mention that Dragonite wont get past Skarmory without Life Orb boost and SR support, and forget about getting past Ferrothorn without Superpower.
    ~ Mention that Aqua Jet with LO is useful for picking off Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Landorus-I, and Mamoswine that would come in for the revenge-kill. Waterfall followed by Aqua Jet also kills Genesect with LO and SR support.

    Choice Band
    ~ Replace Steels with Jirachi, since there are plenty of mons that doesn't really care about EQ, namely Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn.
    ~ For Superpower, it's worth noting that it arguably provides much better coverage than EQ, hitting hard most of the stuff that EQ hits and more. Specify that it does lose out on Jirachi and Metagross, although Fire Punch is still available.

    MultiScale Shuffler
    ~ Why not mention Forretress, who can spin away the hazards? Rapid Spin is a bigger issue than Iron Barbs from Ferrothorn imo.
    ~ Umm, the only spinner Gengar reliably blocks Spin is Forretress, and even then it can 2HKO Gengar with Gyro Ball or simply switch out with Volt Switch.
    ~ Sableye is also worth a mention
    ~ Elaborate and mention Icicle Spear, otherwise newer readers may not understand why.

    Rain Mixed
    ~ mention Politoed as a partner -_-
    ~ Specify these O-2HKOs - OHKOs max HP Heatran 81% of the time after SR, OHKOs Thundurus-T after SR, 2HKOs max HP Jirachi 65% of the time after SR + 1 layer of Spikes, 2HKOs Blissey after SR, and 2HKOs Tyranitar without Rain.
    ~ For Superpower, emphasize its usefulness in one-shotting TTar and 2-shotting Chansey. Hurricane followed by Superpower also seals Gastrodon's fate. It's important to note that with Superpower, Jirachi would have its way with Dragonite without Earthquake.
    ~ BB does not deserve an AC mention - please remove

    Tank (Rain)
    ~ a contrast with the Rain Mixed is nice, but a comparison should be drawn with the Multiscale Shuffler, since this set is largely defensive and shuffling.
    ~ mention Politoed as a partner -_-
    ~ no mention of hazards needs to be fixed
    ~ mentioning spinblocker would also be ideal
    ~ mention defensive Pokemon that can form an effective defensive core with this Dragonite. You already mentioned Chansey, which is nice for tanking Water-types with an Ice move; Amoonguss may also be nice for checking Water-types and Thundurus-T. Skarmory is nice for checking physical dragons and ice mons, as well as SD Virizion (as well as setting Spikes); Terrakion is a threat, so mons that can check it, such as Starmie, Scizor, or Breloom, would be nice.
    ~ this set is more meant for Rain stall imo, as M Dragon, the founder of this set, has demonstrated

    Other Options
    ~ Remove Icy Wind; Dragonite has moves to increase its Speed, paralyze the foe, and even priority moves x_x
    ~ Mention Brick Break for breaking dual screens
    ~ Mention Tailwind; Safeguard; and Stone Edge, which kills Volcarona without getting burned
    ~ Mention the mixed set that got removed :(

    In General
    ~ Remove all AC mentions of BB and drop it to OO; there's no reason to use BB when Superpower is now compatible with Multiscale.
  16. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    Alright I've been thinking for a while and I just don't think I can finish this darn claen up. I just don't have the time or the patience to go through all this. I have 4 other projects underway on Smogon alone, never mind the stuff i do outside of Smogon. I just don't have time to write up an analysis as ridiculously huge as this one is.

    I'd rather not just give up on the clean-up completely though, as it's pretty clear that the analysis DOES need this cleanup. I'm hoping that someone else with a little more time and energy to devote to this will pick it up where I'm leaving off and finish it. There are enough eager people in C&C that I'm sure someone will want to pick it up and get themselves closer to a contributor/pre-contributor badge. At least I hope so. I'd hate for all the work we've done to be lost.
  17. Jukain

    Jukain literally jesus
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    I am willing to pick this up where Jimera0 left it off and implement Pocket's changes with all of my other analyses being in GP and Empoleon going to be up within the next 10-15 minutes.
  18. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
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    that would be fantastic pokemon0078! Thanks for the time and effort you spent on this clean up, Jimera0
  19. Jukain

    Jukain literally jesus
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    I will post a new thread with Pocket's changes to Jimera0's skeleton implemented asap.
  20. Jukain

    Jukain literally jesus
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    The thread is now up, you can move this to L&O I guess.
  21. PK Gaming

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