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Gen 4 Generation 4 Viability Ranking (OU)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Monte Cristo, Sep 29, 2013.

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  1. LizardMan

    LizardMan Useless piano playing pair of boobs
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    Move heracross up to B- rank. He is rly good atm. Choice Band and Rest/Talk LO have good and powerful niches. B- is probably fair for him since he hasn't been proven yet but is definitly better than Cresselia easily. Move Registeel down to B-. It is largely outclassed by Bronzong, Jirachi, Empoleon, and Heatran.

    Move Cradily up to C+. With Sand, the Curse and Swords Dance sets can just auto win vs certain teams. Its a very nice wall.
  2. Windsong

    Windsong .dancin
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    Agreeing with Lizard on moving Hera up to B- and Cradily up to C+/B- -- Cradily does have the fact that it can just flat out shitstomp certain teams going for it and it's a niche but good mon in DPP now.

    We've also probably been over this already but Hippo/Bliss are probably a bit higher than they should be (probably A rather than A+) and while the OP apparently have some kind of weird love for Blaziken, it's outclassed garbage and shouldn't be higher than C tbh. I guess it kind of looks like Blaziken beats bad stall with SD and bad offense with Agility but in fact it just gets demolished by its own residual damage the same way bad stall mauls Ape and offense just wrecks it whenever it tries to set anything up.

    Smeargle up from D --> C at least. It's still a cool mon on HO and while it doesn't win lead matchups against anything except like, Pert and some Tran, it has its niche. Also integral part in Baton Pass (last time someone discounted that IPL nearly won OST guys).

    Tbh though my real question is why is someone who tried to use a ladder "peak" gotten from like 3 games as justification for anything the OP of this thread.
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  3. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    More changes I'm bringing up. I'm surprised I left these out when analyzing the list previously.

    Would anyone oppose to Weavile dropping to C+/C? I think it's rather lackluster (just make sure you're not careless when teambuilding and pack four+ guys weak to Ice).

    Clefable should definitely not be in B. C or even D. It has never given evidence over the years of DPP that it's a top threat. Its ability is amazing and its movepool is amazing. However, the stats don't back it up. It has decent HP, but it can't take the heavy attacks in OU. The main selling point is being able to avoid entry hazards. Other than that, stall doesn't really care about Clefable. It doesn't actually threaten the defensive Pokemon, it's just another supporter with a different tool than than others (such as Cresselia who instead employs enormous natural bulk). Plus, what stall? Stall is certainly viable in DPP, but the game is extremely offensive right now.

    Don't know why Slowbro needs to be above C. I think the Physic typing is too detrimental in its case, especially when it has no speed. You have reliable recovery, unlike Cresselia, but the game hits way too hard for you to not be always forced into using Slack Off and doing little else. Paralysis and especially Toxic, ruin it, and you can simply double switch him to limit his options.

    Some may cry foul, but I think Bronzong can drop a rank or two. Its typing and Levitate is perfect. However, it does nothing more than sit there and proceed to not heal itself. I can never support the team as effectively as I'd like. I also rather use Stealth Rock on a ton of other Pokemon instead, and his offense is rather meager. Explosion is always nice though. It's main use is to check some specific threats with its resistances and immunities.

    Honchkrow should drop to D. It's BL, but that's because of its power in UU. It has very little place in OU. The HP is tarnished by paper-thin defenses in addition to the SR weakness. Any attack will do a lot to it (very susceptible to priority). Sucker Punches from it are easy to see because it's forced to use it a lot because of the average speed.

    I thought more about Yanmega, and while the abilities are awesome, it will never compensate for the SR weakness. It can't really choose to alternately function as a staller like, say Moltres, can. It's stuck to offense. The Protect lead is too predictable as well. C is probably more accurate than C+.


    I looked and found several more to add to the list.

    The two more legitimate ones first. Alakazam for a C+ or C. Also, Kabutops was forgotten. It's extremely powerful in rain. However, getting a Swords Dance is quite hard to pull off because of its terrible defensive typing and low defenses (besides Def). D is too low in my opinion, so C seems fair, just use a good rain starter and invest in Screens.

    A couple of throw-ins. Tangrowth should probably go on the list. It's good decent stats except for SpD and Spd. Strong attacks, the usual grass utility moves, massive physical bulk. It's basically an alternate Shaymin. One of the lower ranks, I suppose.

    Very old-school, but Porygon2 should probably be on the list in a low tier. Trace is awesome and can compensate for the decent-but-not-amazing bulk.

    Man, the memories.

    Anyways, Lucario is still probably one of the best "receivers" of Screens + Lunar Dance.
  4. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Life is like a hurricane
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    The OTR set is the only one I've seen recently pretty much, and that set is alone good enough for B rank. Yeah it's walled by some common threats (Rotom-A, Zapdos, Skarmory) but it still has Explosion and versus offensive teams it's really good.
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  5. Brammi

    Brammi

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    I think Moltres should be a rank higher simply because it's the best at what it does. Of course it has big problems with rocks, but I know I've used it to considerably good effect against many great Gen 4 OU battlers. Of course it's not great and it's outclassed except in everything but the subtoxic set, but barring Tenta and Empoleon, it will get a kill, incredibly often with only a small amount of support and has amazing switchin potential against some of the tier's top threats. Naturally as a Poke that gets hard countered it should definitely be low, but I think high C+ (low B-) should be the minimum it gets simply through the ability to wear down so much of the metagame.
  6. Masterclass

    Masterclass

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    These rankings make no sense

    How is a jolteon more viable than a gliscor? or a Milotic more viable than a Vaporeon? and Infernape is more Viable than every single pokemon you've listed in A- besides suicune. It's also a joke that blaziken is ranked above hitmontop, quagsire, frosslass.

    These are the changes I'd make:

    Suicune > A
    Venusaur, Milotic, Raikou, Jolteon > B+
    Gliscor > A-
    Infernape > A
    Vaporeon > A-
    Roserade > A-
    Bronzong > B+
    Mamoswine > B+
    Dugtrio > B
    Magnezone > B
    Quagsire > B-
    Hitmontop > B-
    Frosslass, Cradily > C+
    Blaziken, Honchkrow, Yanmega > C

    Suicune in modern DPP is easily the second best water type. He takes anything from a flygon, dragonite, gyarados, heatran and most other physical attackers can KO back. He can fit into all sorts of teams, he's an excellent sweeper as well. If there was a tier between A+ and A thats where suicune fits.

    Venusaur, Milotic, Raikou and Jolteon are all pokemon that need alot of support to work. Milotic is really outclassed by vaporeon, suicune, and starmie. Each of those 3 can easily do what it does defensively and have better options offensively, or means to support the team(Rapid Spin, Wish, Heal Bell). Jolteon and Raikou are two of the same, they simply don't work if they don't have enough support going for them. Hippowdon, Blissey, Scarf Flygon, Shaymin, Roserade are all very common and it's hard to get rid of these. I'm not saying raikou and jolteon are bad, they just require too much support to be an ''A-''. as for Venusaur there really isn't a reason to use it over Roserade, Celebi, or Shaymin. For one each 3 of those have reliable ways of recovery which venusaur lacks. From what i've noticed in recent dpp days everyone seems to be using sand so that really just makes it even harder for a venusaur to function especially without the leftovers recovery aswell. It's a great pokemon to use against the top threats but the current metagame really pressures it too fast, it may seem good on paper but in practice it fails miserably. Other reasons to use Shaymin, Roserade and Celebi is because of the other options those 3 provide. They have great coverage, great supporting moves and better offensive presence.

    Gliscor should be moved to A-, sometimes a gliscor can single-handedly beat stall teams. He even does great against balance and offensive teams. He walls numerous pokemon and cripple many with toxic. He has a great ability which makes him even more big of a pain in the ass. Also has great typing to go along with these attributes. There's almost no drawbacks to using gliscor. He's very reliable and can preform many tasks.

    Infernape, how dare you even put him in B+ lol. And to actually put Jolteon, Raikou, Milotic and Venusaur in a higher rank really baffles me. There are teams that simply find Infernape impossible to handle, he can just do everything. He either wall breaks with mix sets and CB sets, sets up stealth rock with a lead set, revenge kill with scarf(he can even revenge kill lucarios and tyranitars with a physical mixed set with Mach Punch), and he can also sweep with SD or Nasty Plot sets. The best part about all of those including the lead set is that he can do major damage with just about any set. The most reliable things that beat infernape for example starmie can really be fucked if they come into a CB U-turn which infernape can use without any draw backs. Anything that doesnt resist a flare blitz or close combat will regret coming into his attacks. I can sit here for days and list why infernape is great. But i'll just go on with the next.

    Vaporeon is probably the best mixed wall, it's nearly impossible to kill and with the right moveset it can handle pretty much everything. It has access to wish and healbell and you can run roar and toxic. If you look at most of the threats in that list, there's not much vaporeon can't cover with the right moveset.

    Roserade.. the next pokemon im shocked that it was listed so low. It can lead, wall, support all at the same time. It sleeps something, it sets up tspikes, spikes and it handles most of the water and electric types in the metagame, it also absorbs toxic spikes. I really shouldn't add more, only a blind person wouldn't see how great roserade is in the current metagame.

    Bronzong and Mamoswine should be higher for obvious reasons. I really don't even want to mention them.

    Here's where i confirmed most of the people here know nothing about DPP. Dugtrio at C+? lol. Is this a joke? Go look at your S rank list. Heatran, Jirachi, and tyranitar.. 3 pokemon people heavily rely on both offensively, and defensively. If anything most teams have atleast 2 of those 3 on them. Dugtrio dispatches all 3 whenever it wants to.

    and now im bored of this so i won't continue. that's my opinion.

    PS. Azelf in A rank what the fuck. and if a smart person can name me one reason to use a blaziken over Infernape, i'll delete this entire post and claim that this is the best viability ranking list in existance. If Infernape exists then Blaziken is not Viable one bit.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
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  7. Twisted Kneebar

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    I don't see how he doesn't belong there. Once the dragons were banned (which lead to Pokemon like Cresselia not being used anymore) its weaknesses now outweigh its positives. As someone who missed out on the second half of DPP I never thought Weavile would basically not be OU anymore but its evident playing DPP these days.

    I also agree on Kabutops being moved up. If you've ever let it set up on you in rain, you'll see why.
  8. LizardMan

    LizardMan Useless piano playing pair of boobs
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    I full heartily agree with this post. I built a few new teams with that specific Bronzong set and it is still really good.

    Masterclass, i'd argue that Agility Shuca Empoleon and DD Gyarados can sweep more easily than offensive Cune can. I would also argue that defensive Gyarados is better than defensive Suicune. Not saying that Gyarados or Empoleon are better than Suicune (definitely not Empoleon) but I feel like you are overrating Suicune just a little bit.

    Clefable is actually decent in DPP OU because it isn't weak to entry hazards and the CM bolt/beam set can own stall. It can use LO too. Yes there may be no evidence showing that it had any relevance in DPP OU but a lot of pokemon on that list don't either. The DPP OU metagame has been constantly evolving and changing even after its death in 2010. Is there any evidence that the DPP OU metagame has been evolving either? No because it is a dead generation. Only people who play DPP OU can see it for themselves.

    Stall is actually very viable in DPP OU as well. The metagame has evolved against Kevin/EW Stall, and standard semi stall (skarm/tran/gliscor/rotom/starmie/Tar.) Although new stall teams adapted for the new metagame are really strong. BKC, Heist, Draco Malfoy, and myself can attest to this.

    PS:I agree with moving Smeargle and Infernape up. Infernape is especially really good even though most DPP OU teams are based on resistances nowadays while Infernape lacks many. That actually benefits Infernape because of how many things he can hit hard regardless of resistances or not.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
  9. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Life is like a hurricane
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    OiawesomeDG it would be good if you could update the OP according to our discussion
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  10. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    I would be willing to take over maintenance of the thread, with the mods approval.

    I've compiled a list of the recent discussion topics separated into general consensus and needing discussion.

    General Consensus
    Gliscor --> A-
    Infernape --> A
    Shaymin --> A-
    Venusaur --> B+
    Milotic --> B
    Dugtrio --> B
    Cradily --> C+
    Weavile --> B
    Yanmega --> C
    Hitmontop --> B
    Suicune --> A
    Roserade --> A-
    Bronzong --> B+
    Blaziken --> C

    Needs Discussion
    Heracross --> B-
    Staraptor --> B-
    Torterra --> unlisted
    Dusknoir --> C
    Porygon-Z --> C
    Smeargle --> C/C-
    Clefable --> C/D
    Slowbro --> C
    Honchkrow --> D
    Alakazam --> C
    Kabutops --> C
    Tangrowth --> ???
    Porygon2 --> ???
    Mamoswine --> B+
    Magnezone --> B
    Quagsire --> B-
    Raikou --> B+
    Jolteon --> B+

    edit: jorgen and jelli ok'd me if oiawesome doesn't respond
    edit2: venusaur/milotic edit
    edit3: missed raikou and jolteon
    edit4: removed hariyama, shaymin>A-; Ape>A
    edit5: weavile C>B
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
  11. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Life is like a hurricane
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    Yeah I've already asked sandshrewz if OP could be taken over, but he said tag original OP first, so that's what I did.

    I'm not sure if your general consesus is completely right though, you're placing Venusaur and Milotic too low I think (B+ is fine for most people it seems).
  12. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    Yea slight error there, Venusaur will read as general consensus B+, Milotic the highest consensus I see is B, arguably split between B and B-
  13. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    That's what I was thinking about Venusaur. However, Raikou has a lot going for it in my opinion. Two sets aren't that reliant on team support. RestTalk (my favorite) is a great status absorber and has some good bulk to it. One weakness and a great counter to Water Pokemon and other Electrics. Also, the Choice Scarf works perfectly because it outspeeds base 100s with Rash (Aura Sphere is crucial). The age-old CM sets, yeah, those always need support to work.
  14. Masterclass

    Masterclass

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    Texas Cloverleaf there's no way shaymin is more viable than infernape, as for hariyama he should be listed as a viable option somewhere in the C's. He has thick fat a huge HP stat, access to things like force palm, and whirlwind. which could do well in a resttalk set. He also has a usable lead set. He's not something you should be using but he should atleast be listed. Things a resttalk set can counter easily, are heatran, tyranitar and the likes of them.

    I also agree that Kabutops and other rain sweepers like: Qwuilfish and Ludicolo should be listed as viable. As for Torterra he isn't viable.
  15. badabing

    badabing hevy hangs da hood,,

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    weavile is still a pretty solid b. its role as a trapper zeroing in especially on starmie and rotom-a (gar and cele potentially being nice bonuses) is comparable to scarftar, but it accomplishes this without need for a choice item by the grace of its speed stat. this is an important distinction because scarftar's impact on the metagame has given rise to bold starmie on defensive builds and even some bulky offense, a variant capable of scouting tar with recover if the scarf is heavily suspected or revealed and exploiting the choice lock accordingly. on the other hand, weavile's pursuit forces this increasingly common set into a series of lose-tie 5050's that it's going to almost always lose (i suppose you could even band it for the 100%), and yes eliminating starmie is that big of a deal. the decision between band and scarf prevents ttar from covering the entire offensive/defensive spectrum of its targets (non scarf can be hard pressed vs lo mie, specs tom, leaf storm cele, and flat out loses to gar so) and this sets the foundation for weavile's niche. other boons headress brings to the table are revenging +1 ddtar and the ice shard to fend off late game scarfgon or even agility zapper, handy for say an offense relying on scarftom. also for some offensive teams, the lack of setup opportunities from being choiced and counterproductive sand residual can be crucial. for instance, bulky dd gyara (often supported with pursuit) gets some nice mileage out of its lefties and bounce recovery in clear skies. yes it's frail (it never has to switch into much other than weak-medium special hits), possesses a lackluster typing and movepool, looks like a feisty cat shaman, but none of these flaws prevent it from doing its job which can be very devastating to standard cores. when i look at the other b-'s too, i think that a niche as an efficient pursuitter is superior in this metagame to simple big hitting or compressing defensive roles so it's justifiably b imo, fits right in with dug and zone.

    edit: blaziken should be removed. no need to type 10+ lines about that one
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
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  16. BKC

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    bada covered weavile really well but i think it's also worth mentioning that first off, vile's stronger than scarftar due to life orb (side note, i wouldn't use cb... being able to switch moves is part of what sets vile apart). second off it's capable of cutting through a lot of surprising amount of offensive teams with its coverage. take a look at some standard offensive teams and see how badly they get fucked up by dark/fight/priority ice; most of the time, they'll have to either sac or do some tricky switching to get their mon in (which adds up real fast if you've got sr up). jirachi takes fuckloads from lo night slash (the bulky wish cm set [which sucks] doesn't but it also isn't usually found on the offensive teams i'm talking about; against defensive teams, once vile pursuits that one thing, it's done its job, and the remainder of the game it can either act as a sac or to lure things in and double switch in on them), sr + low kick + probable u-turning will take a toll on scizor, bronzong is great but it usually carries macho brace meaning sr + night slash will take its toll. metagross is probably the safest but the sr ones boom a lot early game (or end up saccing themselves by tanking a heatran fire blast with occa and leaving them low enough to die to anything) and the agility ones don't want to take too much damage because they'll end up dying to a few life orb hits afterwards so they're more than likely going to sac before switching it in.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
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  17. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    I'll take back over when I can, sorry guys, just a lot of IRL stuff and work taken over my free time nowadays.

    Thanks Tomahawk9 and Texas Cloverleaf for reminding me I'll update the OP with Texas' very informative list! thanks texas! :D
  18. Masterclass

    Masterclass

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    Texas Cloverleaf List looks good now, I'd remove Blaziken completely, and put Hariyama somewhere in C's. Qwilfish and Ludicolo need to be added.

    Registeel shouldn't be in any of the B's. Togekiss is a B- Maximum. < Should be obvious and no reason to discuss these.

    BKC badabing

    Can one of you discuss Crobat cause i don't feel like writing a half-assed one cause im too tired. He should easily be a B+ or A-. He stands out from all the B's.
  19. Masterclass

    Masterclass

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    Breh, I don't think you read my post correctly. I never said that suicune can sweep better than water types. There's more to a pokemon than sweeping. Without sweeping a CM 3 attack cune can check DD gyarados, Dragonite, Flygon, Heatran and many other pokemon. The fact that it can be a potent sweeper after a calm mind is just an added bonus. Also you can sit here and argue how a gyarados is superior to a suicune, but they are two different pokemon. Each one has his own qualities and each one has pros and cons. I'm not gonna sit here and argue with you over which one is better. They're both A Rank material, period.

    Sorry for double post, i just noticed LizardMans post.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2014
  20. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    Updated the OP with Texas' list
    I'll add more write ups in the OP later, cheers everybody, here's to the revivial of this thread :D ~~
    [​IMG][​IMG]
  21. Aerodactyl Legend

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    Blaziken is viable. It obviously runs into the same problems as Infernape potentially could, but is slower and will always run into the issue of not being able to cover all of the guys in A and up in one set. He's powerful and can clean mid or late game though. Agility (which at the very least isn't completely ruined by Bullet Punch) can be dangerous. I agree with the C ranking.

    I have been using Registeel some and it's not half bad to be honest. I love its sheer defenses. Easy Stealth Rocks and some pivoting. Near impossible to one shot without setting up. The big problem is no recovery besides Rest. I can usually find ways to get the clerics in and keep him healthy though. You can experiment with Rain Dance or even Gravity.


    A is probably too high, but I'd say B+ is fair. Anyone who's reading, don't let his BL status fool you. Amazing as a stallbreaker, bulkier than one would think, Super Fang, can work as a lead because he's so fast (and has U-Turn), you gain another useful switch-in to Grass or Fighting moves, and more. You can really mess with some guys by Roosting all the time, I don't even run the move and it still works just fine.
  22. BKC

    BKC
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    i guess technically blaziken fits c rank but i think the fact that literally no one has used it in ou because of infernapes existence since dp has been around (2006!) speaks for itself

    registeel is... alright. i find bronzong is usually better but regi has cool shit like twave and absolutely ridiculous sheer bulk. definitely not b material though

    crobat is fantastic, a- is my vote
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  23. badabing

    badabing hevy hangs da hood,,

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    point of reference: crobat @ leftovers, taunt / brave bird / roost / uturn, evs depend but jolly enough speed for scarftar, rest in hp and defenses (you can run more speed if you want some wiggle room for +1 dders lurking around the gon benchmark)

    it's gonna be hard for me to restrain myself here since i've used batman to the point where we've become bros in arms more than anythin like i'd take a bullet punch to the mandible for that nigga, but ima try and get it right get it tight. crobat's niche is basically threefold 1) its one of the best answers to grassmons (staples for combating threatening waters and electrics, fwg mentality, theyre common etc) in the tier. factor in its ability to snatch momentum for its team with uturn and it becomes easy for it to use gaymin as an entry point to penetrate and run circles around standard cores, making an integral part of their defense a liability. by virtue of its speed and typing, it serves this purpose very well, not caring about min's flare drops or leech seed, quad resisting loom while being immune to tspikes and taunting for good measure, similar things applying to roserade, needs to be a little more wary of para from cele and the uncommon psychic tho. it obviously doesn't destroy fwg singlehandedly due to heatran existing, but it sure can dish like a muthafucka. to elaborate a bit further on its defensive niche, it can 1v1 a lot of random shit but as for actually switching in and checking it needs some finesse and pivoting to really deal with fights outside loomer (although i guess it makes a nice sponge for luc if for some reason its revealed in the mid game), so don't expect too much from it in that regard cuz the above is all it should be 100% covering. now secondly about how it's played 2) it destroys stall, usually shuts down at least half their mons (an especially handy one being gliscor), and defensive teams have trouble significantly touching it between its bulk and uturn. pair with hazards to wear down tran and tar on the uturn and even pursuit for rotom if you need it to execute this role down to a t, but it generally does enough damage on its own by takin niggas out the equation. notice tho how i don't refer to it as a pure stallbreaker, which leads me into how 3) it can even lategame clean vs weakened offense due to its longevity, hitting decently hard with brave bird, outpacing almost everything non scarf especially starmie/gar/ape/, and being bulky enough to sustain priority and stall out scarfgon. its main flaws being its vulnerability to the stier and needing to be paired with a spinner if you want to be able to dictate with it, i think matchup-wise batman is such a universal utility that you can overlook them (even more easily when taking uturn into account) and put it at A-.

    as a side note, i'd be interested to hear Heist or panamaxis opinion on togekiss because ive seen them use it effectively in the past
  24. Twisted Kneebar

    Twisted Kneebar

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    A+ analysis, I've noticed and completely agree with everything you wrote. On top of breaking down stall and beating a lot of things 1v1 it can also set up for stronger Pokemon to clean up. I used it with a CBNite because Crobat gets things down to at 50 percentish and CBNite can literally 2HKO all of OU with the right moveset. Was really fun but you absolutely need a spinner.
  25. LizardMan

    LizardMan Useless piano playing pair of boobs
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

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    Backing up Crobat. It is so good. Whenever I use Breloom, Heracross, or most grass pokemon I wish I had any other matchup if my opponent has a Crobat. No pokemon does Crobats job as well as he does. At checking Breloom and grasses, you just can't get better than him. Its typing doesn't allow it to check many other things defensively, but its exceptional speed allows it to check Infernape, Starmie, and Gengar. Which happen to be some of the most threatening mons. Stall teams tend to happen to have a lot of trouble with him too, especially the ones without Heatran or with Gliscor.

    The most reliable check to Crobat on a stall team is Rotom-A. Crobat U-turn into Tyranitar is such a strong play considering Crobat does serious work to the rest of the stall team besides the lone Heatran which they might not even use. (They should run it!)
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
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