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Gen 4 Generation 4 Viability Ranking (OU)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Monte Cristo, Sep 29, 2013.

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  1. LizardMan

    LizardMan A mo so true.
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    252+ SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 308-366 (92.2 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

    252+ SpA Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 332-392 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

    Seems pretty reliable considering Stealth Rock, and they might not even be Careful or Skarm may run speed EVs too. Some Metagross are Bullet Punch/Meteor Mash/Explosion/Stealth Rock which the Protect Magnezone set can exploit.

    Lucario getting trapped is unnecessary. It is a steel type, but Magnezone based teams do not need to worry about removing him as much as the sturdier steels to abuse their sweepers. Heatran getting trapped is somewhat unnecessary since some of the abusers for Magnezone tend to be dragons, Curse Snorlax, Gengar, and Earth Power Shaymin.

    I honestly think Dugtrio is arguably worse than Magnezone. Dugtrio is a liability vs Scarf Heatran, which has been becoming popular. It is also frail with one viable set, which is Choice Band. Its defensive typing leaves much to be desired. It has some trouble with Bulky Tyranitars and bulkier steels. It can't beat DD Shuca Tar. Magnezone just has some redeeming qualities if it had a bad matchup. Dugtrio is just a lot more deadweight at times or risky.

    I look at Dugtrio, then look at Hippowdon. Then I wonder why im using a Dugtrio team. Im just kidding, but I really hate Dugtrio. xD
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2014
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  2. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold hommies
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    Yeah I agree with Lizardman, Magnezone is better than Dugtrio overall. Magnezone has a great resistances + solid bulk which makes on your team a nice utility mon, not solely to "trap and kill" like Dugtrio does which really cant switch safely so you need a doble switch / sac something before, still Dugtrio loses to common things like DD Shuca Tyranitar, Agility Shuca Empoleon or Scarf Heatran which are mons supposed to trap.
    Another thing that I hate about Dugtrio is that after to kill something is fodder for a lot of dangerous mons such DD Nite / DD Gyarados / Gengar / Breloom / SubSD Gliscor / OTR Zong etc while with Magnezone you have the option to use t-wave or boom w/ custap endure set because unlike Dugtrio is not needed using Life Orb or Specs because hits hard already which makes a mon more flexible.
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  3. george182

    george182

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    While it's easy to say magnezone has bulk and resistances that doesn't transfer to utility. In fact it barely checks anything. At least Dugtrio has speed.

    As for which one is more useful I only need to scroll down this viability ranking thread to see that Dugtrio traps 60% of the S-rank pokemon. While half the games you play in magnezone has no purpose.

    [Edit: Of course it doesn't trap shed shell tyranitar and heatran, so there's no point using trappers at all... *sarcasm*]
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2014
  4. dadoux

    dadoux

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    Scarfrachi can beat Dugtrio with Iron head/Ice punch or U-turn on his switch, ScarfHeatran OHKOs Duggy with Fire blast, Shuca Tyranitar takes 50% on a banded Earthquake and OHKOs with Ice punch and good luck switching on a Starmie, who can survive a banded Sucker punch by the way.

    Dugtrio needs to be banded to OHKO Heatran / Tyranitar (and 180hp ttar is 84.5% - 100% lol) , and a loooot of mons can set-up on a locked Earthquake, SubtoxicZapdos, Baton Pass Gliscor, Subpunch Breloom, Sub Gengar, DD Dragonite/Gyarados to name a few.

    Toxic/Twave from Magnezone prevents Set-up at least, and LOExplosion/Metal sound is also a good way to apply pressure on stall teams.
  5. LizardMan

    LizardMan A mo so true.
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    It does not trap the bulky Bold Starmies very well. It also does not do a good job at trapping Lucario or Breloom. Locking yourself into the weak situational Aerial Ace doesn't hold too much merit. Considering Breloom Spores and Subs and kills something before Dugtrio can revenge kill it after the sub is broken.

    Magnezone can check things. It can check Leftovers Gyarados without Earthquake, and if Magnezone uses Protect Bulky Lefties. It can check Zapdos. It can check Kingdra. It can check Azelf. It can check Jolteon. It traps SD Scizor, which doesn't always use U-Turn. It can pressure grass pokemon with HP Fire, which is borderline checking it since Magnezone can live an HP Fire. Checks Crobat, tanks U-Turns, tanks Outrages, tanks random Draco Meteors.

    Hell it even checks the Surf Defensive Starmie BKC likes. (Which is one reason why I have a preference to Hydro Pump, but both have merits.) If Magnezone doesn't have anything to trap, I think I am in a pretty formidable position with my sweepers. Magnezone has the stats going for it. Dugtrio is an underpowered pokemon and you get good traps, which doesn't happen every game effortlessly. Sometimes you need to get good U-Turns, good double switches, or a good sacrifice.

    I personally think Magnezone is around the same level Jolteon is at. I think Jolteon is ranked a little bit too high. I also think Magnezone is ranked a bit too low.
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2014
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  6. dadoux

    dadoux

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    Magnezone and Dugtrio are also really different trappers, it's pretty hard to compare them.
  7. LizardMan

    LizardMan A mo so true.
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    I forgot to mention this before but Protect Thunder Wave Magnezone can check CM Wish Jirachi. (although unreliably) Switch in, Thunder Wave, then just keep Thunderbolting for a crit or some fully paras. You resist both Psychic and Thunderbolt, and I think he needs to be +5 or +6 to 2HKO the bulky Magnezone. If the Jirachi was smart, it would try to use Thunderbolt to para the Magnezone though.

    Spec'd Magnezone can also put intense pressure onto CM Wish Jirachi and it would need to get +4 to 2hko iirc. Due take note that the Jirachi needs to use Wish. This allows you to crit the Jirachi, or 3hko the Jirachi if it is +0 or +1.
  8. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    changes made
    • Lucario -> A+
    • Magnezone -> B+
  9. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    A is way too high for it, I wouldn't even go for a B at this stage for DPP. I do like Choice Band though, it's a decent way to remove Starmie and can score some lucky paralysis with Body Slam. However, it doesn't do much to bulkier teams, and the fact that you have to choose between Pursuit and Selfdestruct sucks (it would be perfect with both). Curse is too easy to force into Rest. In general, he's quite susceptible to status and disruptive stuff like Trick (which I see a decent amount of).


    I've used it recently and it's not bad. It's plain compared to other Steels, but does Stealth Rock easy and usually is never one-shotted, even by super-effective attacks. When it runs SR, it frees up a slot on your other support members. I think it's best as a secondary Steel mainly as the general sponge, while the main one does whatever it does. I also like it for the niche setup moves like Rain Dance and Gravity. Bronzong is comparable, but a lot of times, I like the higher defenses (notably SpD) on Registeel, which I can drop Levitate for. And while it's offense is weak, the Electric moves hit a couple guys that use Zong as setup bait.

    I'm among the few that think Machamp is actually better in a non leading position. The less key Pokemon out the way, the more damage he is able to do with Dynamicpunch. He's bulky enough to not be limited to only leading due to only having two weaknesses. Payback or not, I'd rather eliminate Ghosts and get hazards up first. B+ is a good rating though.
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  10. dadoux

    dadoux

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    Yeah i fucked up about the snorlax part, tried it a bit and it's not as good as it was anymore. It's still quite good, B= is a good rank.

    Scizor is a great check to dragons in general Flygon/Dragonite(/!\Fire move)/Kingdra/Gengar in offensive teams, it is also a nice revenge killer with his strong Bullet punch, prevents set-up with U-turn and a bit of prediction and can be really scary as SD set. (the BulkyRoost is better these day, but the LO Offensive can be quite good too)
    It is quite easy to fit him into a team and he hardly needs any support, A+ is a possibility for me.
  11. Durant

    Durant

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    Wait one question. Seeing as Heatran has a write up will all the other Pokemon get write ups or only Heatran?
  12. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    iirc LO Rain Hydro from Kingdra OHKOs offensive scizor.
    252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor in Rain: 406-478 (118.3 - 139.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Surf vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor in Rain: 322-379 (93.8 - 110.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Not only this, but Scizor fails to switch into one of the most dominant and powerful Dragonite sets: MixNite due to fire blast.
    252+ SpA Life Orb Dragonite Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 592-700 (172.5 - 204%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Dragonite Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 748-884 (218 - 257.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  13. dadoux

    dadoux

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    Jirachi can't really beat RainKingdra either, but they are both still Kingdra check in my opinion.

    RainKingdra has hardly any switch in OU, the best thing you can do is take out the rain with your Tyranitar and damage him the most you can. With CBZor you can play around Draco meteors/Outrage from Mixgon/Mixnite/Kingdra and that makes him a pretty good check since besides Suicune, you can't really have a "safe" switch to a Draco meteor from Dragonite. After SR+LO Banded Bullet punch kills the mild/Hasty if I recall, which was how we dealt with Mixmence in DP most of the time.

    Scizor is still a great Pokemon imo, btw Nite is too good to be A+ but too SR/ Offensive Pressure weak to be S=, is an S- rank possible? Scizor doesn't deserves to be A+ if Nite is A+ too imo, Nite should be better than him since it is one of the scariest mons for sure.
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
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  14. boudouche

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    Aerodactyl B+ > A- : as a lead, its maybe not as good as it was but it's still excellent. it's also an excellent stallbreaker (even if sand is absolutely needed) and a cool sweeper in general.

    Machamp B+ > A- : as a simple sweeper, i admit that breloom is often prefered by players for its excellent typing and his ability to pull a team but please, machamp is (one of) the best DPP anti-lead, and it's very annoying for any team.

    Registeel B > Z : lel is this serious ? i'm sorry, but this thing has nothing to do in this list. yes, its defenses are amazing but why would you want to play it ? wanna a steel with SR ? you have skarm, bronzong, metagross, jirachi and heatran. wanna play it with curse + restalk ? kill yourself.

    Blaziken C > D : in-fer-nape. except if you want to play SD + Baton pass, i can't see it working well in a team.

    Roserade B > B+ : excellent (t)spikes support, especially in balanced / bulky offense teams and it's a great lead of course. its defense sucks compared to venusaur's but it has natural cure which is an excellent ability when you have nothing to absorb status in your team. furthermore, i think we shouldn't compare rade and saur (like i did now :'( ) : despite their same type, their roles are totally differents. if you need (t)spikes, play rade and if you need something bulkier, play venu.

    Empoleon B > S (well ok, B+) : can i know why this god shares his rank with registeel ? damn... well, excellent lead, awesome late game sweeper (subpetaya and agility + 3 attacks are both amazing) and not so hard to set-up. i have nothing to add.
  15. kill yourself

    kill yourself .|~Fashionista~|.
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    ok why is registeel still B?

    subroost :pirate:
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  16. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    I'll vote for Registeel in C.

    The lead set is trash. Offensive and SubRoost all day.
  17. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    because I have IRL stuff and can't update this every day
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  18. george182

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    Is it a good dragon check? Scizor was a great check to Latias and Salamence because it could OHKO them, but the remaining OU dragons fair just fine against it.

    It doesn't OHKO Dragonite after rocks, even with Life orb recoil and against a Max Hp Dragonite it rarely 2hkos 43.8% - 51.6%, enabling roost stalling.
    Dragonite OHKO's Scizor with any fire move and 2hko's +1 Outrage.

    I don't like switching Scizor into Flygon because it typically Earthquakes or U-turns and is very reluctant to Outrage, while it's funky sets all have fire moves. U-turn from Flygon is a particular problem due to Scizor's limited movepool allowing easy momentum.

    Scizor isn't a great Kingdra check either, being 2hkoed by a +1 waterfall, or 1hkoed by a rain boosted hydro pump. While Scizor is slower, it can't OHKO in return and bullet punch is resisted.

    Scizor is still an Outrage resist and a Dracco meteor sponge, but you can't just slap a Scizor on your team to check dragons anymore.
  19. LizardMan

    LizardMan A mo so true.
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    Scizor can check Dragonite since Mixed Dragonite tends to be Mild natured. U-Turn is usually good enough to check Kingdra. Quick Attack Scizor is legitimate too on CB Scizor, since its not like you'd use Pursuit too much now that Latias is banned.

    CB Scizor checks the more common dragon sets with sand support. Mixed Dragonite, Offensive DD Nite, and Chesto Rest Kingdra. Although yeah, it can switch into Flygon's U-Turn, you definitly need other ways to deal with Flygon. Scizor has a lot of switch ins and Flygon just runs away due to U-Turn.
  20. Aerodactyl Legend

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    Scizor was never a real "Dragon check". It could do it of course, but that's only because it was a check for everything and was relied on too much. It didn't OHKO Salamence (BP did up to around 70%, so residual damage was required although Leftovers DD was a thing), did the same to offensive Latias (Specs beat him so U-Turn hardly got to kill her). It's a toss-up with Dragonite too. You have to predict correctly and Nite stills needs prior damage. Kingdra doesn't really count, you can still take a boosted Outrage or Water move and only be able to U-Turn (its typing requires a different style of checking from the others anyway) The only one that's rather safe to try is Flygon.

    I don't think he should drop our ever be forgotten because of how dangerous it is. It still has the most solid priority (other than Lucario) and a hard hitting U-Turn (all paired with Pursuit to make the ultimate switch-game package).

    These days he's getting less used, in my opinion, not because he's getting weaker. It's just that Bullet Punch doesn't hit much of the top Pokemon. And when he U-Turns, a lot of stuff outspeed and can do major damage to him. And back then, stuff like Zapdos was out of a job due to Latias being around. Now he's back and a great counter/check to Scizor, unlike Latias was.

    Flygon is a solid enough reason to pack Scizor right now, as is Tyranitar and Dragonite. It just needs to get in and not be KO'd on the next turn. Back then, people threw Scizor on their teams as their only catch-all check which put them in trouble as time progressed.
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  21. dadoux

    dadoux

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    Who actually plays max hp dragonite? Besides the DD claw/EQ that SDscizor can set-up on without any problem. The mixed lead is damn easy to weaken too.

    Scizor is not skarmory, but he is good enough for offensives teams to check dragons, I've never had problem against them tbh.
  22. LizardMan

    LizardMan A mo so true.
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    A check is not supposed to be a do-all counter. The CB Tyranitar + Jirachi or Bronzong gets annoyed by CB Scizor. If you add other guys which aren't ideal against it, you have a CB hit and run pokemon which can poke and flee and do suprising amounts of damage if played correctly. When building teams nowadays, I always say to myself "I need a halfway decent bug resist." Why do I say that? CB Scizor is one of the gayest pokemon to be weak to. Just like how Flygon can dance around CB Scizor, CB Scizor can play that game vs other teams and some of his weaker checks or counters too. Gyarados and Zapdos won't always cut it due to Stealth Rock and Starmie disliking Bug STAB. If they only have 1 good switch into U-Turn, its really easy to isolate it, single it out, and wear it down.

    Of course this is Scizor, and its nowhere near as good as it once was. Swords Dance with Roost is still really good and Scarf Scizor is pretty good though. The point is CB Scizor will always be relevant due to STAB U-Turn, considering Scizor can have momentum half the time and still do U-Turn mechanics. I don't disagree with the above posts, I am just clarifying and verifying some details.

    Scizor was popular for DD Mence as well back in the day. Scizor was able to stop its sweep flat out. Scarf Flygon or Jirachi would have ended up getting speed tied when Sally is on the run and plus one.
    Last edited: May 2, 2014
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  23. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E
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    I'm bored so I have some opinions:

    [​IMG] Empoleon to B+ or A-. It is simply one of the best sweepers out there, the single best special sweeper. If you have a Water-based or a special overload based HO team, you're using Empoleon. It's just that good. And it also has some options for what it uses depending on the team, SubPetaya with Grass Knot, SubPetaya with Ice Beam, 3 Attacks with Life Orb, or 3 Attacks with Shuca.

    [​IMG] Shaymin to A. I love Shaymin, it is in my opinion better than Celebi on balanced teams, obviously on stall Celebi is better, but if you're just using your Grass mon as an offensive pivot which I think is often the case, Shaymin not being Pursuit weak and having Seed Flare (which is amazing) makes it at least just as good, even with less options.

    [​IMG] Roserade to B+ or A-. Roserade is good, it doesn't deserve to be this low. It can function as lead with Toxic Spikes, later in the game with Black Sludge > Focus Sash, as defensive Spikes on stall (it's good) and my personal favorite is Choice Scarf, which is a great lead.

    [​IMG] Uxie to B-. Uxie is decent enough, it has some solid leads sets, Choice Scarf lead is good on quite a bit of teams (it isn't used that much because most people don't really consider it), it is also quite good as a lead for HO teams, either Dual Screens or Rain Dance thanks to its bulk, Stealth Rock, U-turn and Memento.

    [​IMG] Staraptor to B-. Staraptor is really strong, if you can take out Rotom-A it can rip apart teams. Deserves a raise.

    [​IMG] Registeel to C+ or B-. Registeel isn't really good, I can't really think of a team where I'd want to use it over other Steel-types.

    [​IMG] Machamp to B+. Focus Sash Machamp is actually a really good lead, most people won't try to Sleep Powder you anyway and with Focus Sash you beat pretty much everything. It also works outside the least slot as a good Tyranitar switchin. DynamicPunch also makes it really hard to switchin on.

    [​IMG] Gyarados to A+. Gyarados is really good. It has some different sets that makes that it fits well on pretty much every playstyle. HO appreciates offensive Dragon Dance sets, bulky offense appreciates bulky Dragon Dance sets, I personally wouldn't use it on balanced but the bulky DD or RestTalk can work, and it is an absolute staple on stall with its RestTalk set. It definitely deserves at least A+ imo.

    If you want to me elaborate on one of these feel free to ask.
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  24. Twisted Kneebar

    Twisted Kneebar

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    If Empoleon is the best special sweeper, I guess people just dont know how to use it. I dont know, I just never find him that great tbh. Of course this is just my personal experience.

    I Agree that Shaymin is ridiculous and so is Gyarados. Almost impossible to kill when bulky, extremely deadly as sweepers. They deserve the bump, imo. Staraptor IS really strong, it punishes even my bulky Gyarados with Brave Bird, even after Intimidate and all. Just scary power. But it is not used more for good reason. Its SR weak, weak to hail and sandstorm, life orb chips away at it, it has crap defense (that is somewhat helped by its own Intimidate) and of course, Rotom-A is used a lot and thats just reality.

    This C-rank says
    and that just fits Staraptor perfectly.
  25. kill yourself

    kill yourself .|~Fashionista~|.
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    empoleon is fucking incredible. look at several of the common teams used and you should see how badly he massacres them...
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