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Get on the offense

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by elDino, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. elDino

    elDino Deal With It.
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jan 9, 2010
    OFFENSE - how to play Pokemon like a man


    If you wanna talk about stall or more defensive pussy playstyles go and check out this thread.
    Sarcasm of course...

    Well, let's start out with the recent bans. Removing Excadrill and Thundurus from the metagame has made offensive playstyles a heck of a lot more effective. Specifically, being able to attack without Excadrill coming in and revenge killing you is a major boon, and the absence of Thundurus's priority Thunder Wave doesn't go amiss either. Now, feel free to use some of the previously lesser used Pokemon such as Lucario (which is pretty effective at the moment) and Salamence to start wreaking some havoc on teams.

    There are many different variants of offense. The most common are probably rain offense, dual screens offense, sun teams, and a general offensive team, which usually carries Tyranitar just to help deal with the other weathers.

    Rain Offense consists of a Politoed along with a few other sweepers. Usually a strong Water-type attacker that can abuse boosted attacks is used, with Pokemon like Starmie taking this option too. Starmie is effective due to its high Speed and absolutely excellent Hydro Pump under the rain; it's extremely powerful. Rotom-W also works well here. Its great secondary Electric STAB means it's able to take out the Water-types that like to switch into Hydro Pump, so other teams often have to resort to using a Grass-type like Celebi or a special sponge such as Blissey to take the attack. Rotom-W can just Volt Switch away from these Pokemon or cripple them with Trick. Other less used options for this spot include Pokemon like Sharpedo, which boasts an incredibly strong Waterfall and can sweep really well after a few boosts from its ability: Speed Boost. A bulky offensive Vaporeon can also work quite well, as its pretty sweet Special Attack stat is often underestimated. Finally, Specs Jellicent is something everyone should try out; it's a great lure as a Specs Water Spout hurts absolutely everything; Rotom-W is almost OHKOed by the attack.

    Other Pokemon commonly seen on rain offense teams include Pokemon that can abuse Thunder or Hurricane. Dragonite immediately comes to mind as it can spam both attacks to great effect. It is also able to pick of threatening sweepers with ExtremeSpeed as well as lure in and KO Tyranitar with Superpower. Dragonite is perhaps the most common Pokemon on a rain team at present, mainly due to its excellent versatility. It can use a Choice Band, or even a Dragon Dance set. Yeah, beware of that thing... Tornadus can also work excellently on a rain team. Specs Hurricane hurts... a lot. Just spamming that move can win matches, since it is just incredibly strong. Jolteon is also pretty good, as Specs Thunders are ridiculously powerful, and it can spam them to full effect. Only Ground-types and Ferrothorn are strong enough to take those Thunders, but Jolteon can just Baton Pass to a substitute.

    Dual Screens offense is next. Basically, give something both Light Screen and Reflect, switch in, set them up, then let your sweepers loose. With dual screens, most frail sweepers have a much easier time setting up, which means they may be able to set up more than once!

    To begin with, these teams need a Pokemon that can set up the screens. Deoxys-S is the first Pokemon that comes to mind; it practically always gets up screens thanks to its ridiculously high Speed stat. Practically the only way to stop it is with Choice Band Tyranitar, but Deoxys-S can run Superpower and enough Attack EVs to OHKO it if it needs. Using Deoxys-S, though, means you can't utilize its ability as an excellent sweeper under screens, but we'll get back to that. Other suitable options for setting up dual screens include Espeon and Xatu, which can both utilize their Magic Bounce ability to ward of status and hazards.

    Regarding sweepers, you can use anything from relatively frail Pokemon such as Lucario and Terrakion to bulkier Pokemon like Dragonite and Scrafty. Lucario appreciates the extra boost to its defenses, as it can then switch in on attacks like Scizor's Bullet Punch with a lot less difficulty, grab a Swords Dance, and then sweep. Terrakion appreciates being able to survive moves such as Bullet Punch, and it also appreciates having the ability to survive against faster Pokemon like Choice Scarf Heatran, Gengar, and Landorus, provided it hasn't had too many defense drops from Close Combat. On the other hand, bulky Pokemon appreciate dual screens as it allows them to set up multiple boosts. Dragonite can often grab two or three Dragon Dances under screens, and Scrafty is in the same boat. It's pretty much game over if you let either of those two get enough boosts. There are various other sweepers, I'm sure, but that's for you guys to talk about!

    Sun Teams are also great at the moment in this metagame. With Ninetales and a bunch of fast, offensive sweepers such as Venusaur and Volcarona on the loose, you must always be wary. Dugtrio is often seen to get rid of Tyranitar easily, so you must always beware of switching Tyranitar in and out too often to change the weather.

    A new threat is Sunny Day Ninetales. Ninetales uses Sunny Day as an opposing weather starter switches in, allowing it to fire off a super effective SolarBeam, or in the case of the rare Abomasnow, Fire Blast. Ninetales is seen as one of the weaker weather starters, though, so don't expect too much from it.

    In terms of sun sweepers, Venusaur works well thanks to its ability, Chlorophyll. When used in conjunction with Growth, Venusaur is certainly a formidable threat, especially since it has Sleep Powder to help it take out a possible check. Volcarona is also very effective, and it can run a plethora of very effective sets to help give it that sense of "oh shit, it's Volcarona... what's it gonna do??!!!". Life Orb + Quiver Dance is pretty effective, as is Rest + Chesto Berry. A set with Substitute works well too, and it enables Volcarona to have a high chance of burning any physical attackers that try to revenge kill it thanks to its ability: Flame Body.

    4drag2mag or other Dragon spam teams aim to eliminate Steel-types with Magnezone and sometimes Magneton too in order for Dragon-types to spam ridiculously powerful STAB attacks. Dragon-types like Haxorus, Dragonite, Latios, and Hydregion can just spam their Dragon attacks to no end, since all Steel-types are eliminated with Magnezone/ton. PKGaming's enter the dragon portrayed this strategy excellently, as it was used very often when Garchomp was still around.

    General Offense Teams are the last major kind of offensive team. Basically, just slap on six sweepers and away you go. Tyranitar is usually used here to help against other weathers and you often see Deoxys-S trying to set up as many hazards as it can before a barrage of sweepers hits the field. Practically anything can be found on these teams: set up sweepers, choice users and just general hard-hitters.

    SO YEAH...
    That's offense in a nutshell as I see it. Talk about what works, what doesn't work, new strategies, and old strategies.

    I have a few general questions I want to hear your opinions on:

    • What is the best type of offense?
    • How does offense do in the current metagame?
    • What issues are there with offense?
    • How does each playstyle fair against the others?
    • What combinations of offensive Pokemon work well?
    Those are the main things I want to know, but otherwise...
    Just... DISCUSS!

    I'll keep track of this thread and name all good contributions in the OP; I look forward to seeing how this goes!

    [I (open)
    Relevant Contributions (October 2011)[/I]]
    Tomahawk9's introduction to stacking and using two similar offensive Pokemon to break through the others counters.
    Pocket's more in-depth points about special offense stacking, and what Pokemon can be used effectively.
    Omicron's introduction to 4drag2mag strategies.
    Zurich's introduction to Trick Room offense.
    Innocent Criminal's Wobbuffet + Deoxys-S + Cloyster core.
    ssbbm's in depth guide to Hyper Offense.
    Stathakis's "Hyper Offense Philosophy".


    Let's get it...

  2. Matthew

    Matthew I love weather; Sun for days
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    May 26, 2008
    I personally really like bulky offense type of teams. I honestly think they have the best abusers in this current metagame honestly. With Volcarona, Dragonite, Terrakion, Verizion, et all it's really easy to make an effective team that can support itself with a little bit of weather. I usually go for sun since Volcarona is amazing and Terrakion really loves having Water-type attacks halved but I guess it boils down to personal preference. Something I really do want to try is DD Tar. I just haven't gotten around to having a team centered around it. Any useful tips for using DD Tar? I figure I'd need to remove Scizor before I have any chance of sweeping (or just hit it with Fire Punch on the switch, either or).

    With the removal of Excadrill "Sand Offense" doesn't really have a main sweeper anymore. Sure you can have Landlos, but honestly he prefers his role as a scarf abuser and scouter way more than he does as a pure sweeper. It's sort of like Hail at this point (except that Tyranitar serves a purpose -- fucking Abomasnow) as it only has one solid abuser (Landlos / Kyurem) and it also really limits team building. I'm sorry but that residual damage is so annoying when I want my pokemon to sweep. I'd much rather have infinite rain / sun when I'm using a LO sweeper.
  3. bluemon


    Oct 21, 2010
    i think quick pass is another viable offense team.

    whats quick pass you ask?

    many people know it as "smash pass"
    with gorebyss's respectable bulk and the fact that you can sweep with a sweeper with +2 +2 +2 makes it a deadly threat once it sets up.
  4. Thorns


    Feb 17, 2007
    i have been playing a lot of drizzle offense just because specs hurricane off tornadus is so fucking strong it's almost unfair

    using scarf raikou as a backup sweeper and stone_cold22's dugtrio to win weather wars. i'm top 100 just cause i spammed hurricane. i recommend you try it
  5. Tomahawk

    is a Tutoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Oct 2, 2010
    I like to use offense with Pokemon that can deal with each other's counters. There are two ways to do this: the first one is stacking multiple Pokemon with the same counters; if you can bring Scizor or Tyranitar down to 40% with Calm Mind Life Orb Latios, your Offensive Trick Room Reuniclus can sweep. You can also set up on the counters a Pokemon lures in; such as the Latios or Reuniclus from before luring in Scizor and using a Volcarona to set up on that Scizor. It's also what I pretty much do with sun teams; Volcarona + Infernape + Darmanitan; not much will be able to take all three of them on, so one will probably be able to sweep.
  6. ginganinja

    ginganinja How do I live? How do I breathe?
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    Apr 13, 2009
    yeah overloading is an excellent strategy atm in weakening counters for one pokemon to sweep. Personally, im loving pokemon such as NP Celebi, NP Mew and SD Mienshao which can all hit very hard, and then Baton Pass out something else. Its tricky to pull off, but it really does give me a fair bit of momentum, with only pokemon like Terrakion and Landorus being problems.

    Other than that I have been using Specs Tran a bit lately. Requires a bit of prediction to use but it can really punish people who run Jirachi and Ferrothornas something loses a chunk of health provided I predict right
  7. NatGeo

    NatGeo ¡Órale!
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 4, 2010

    w/e jk ilu

    I think hyper offense personally is probably going to be a bit mroe profitable in the current metagame thanks to Excadrill being gone for good, etc. etc. Expect a lot more viable scarfers, since Chlorophyll ain't got nothin on Excadrill. Regarding the questions, bulky offense is still going to be the most viable form of offense in the metagame, given that it can take care of other key playstyles with its combination of, well, bulk and offensive prowess. Offense has definitely been the dominant playstyle for a while now (I don't think this metagame was ever stall-based, not since GSC LOL), and I don't see that not being the case for most of this gen.

    also CB Terrakion. nuff said
  8. sirndpt

    is an Artist Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 12, 2011
    HO is in fact the playstyle that's gained most from the recent bans imo, even more so than stall, purely because they were such huge threats that every stall team prepared for them. Thundurus wasn't so bad, but Excadrill HO could only deal with using Conkeldurr (who I've always found horribly underwhelming), Infernape (poor synergy) and Scarf Politoed / Abomasnow (...). it could be played around, but it'd typically take out 2-3 pokes.

    anyway, from my experience, CB Haxorus, Cloyster, DD Moxie Gyarados, SD Scizor, SD Lucario, and both CB and DD Lum Dragonite are the most outstanding members of physical HO. funnily enough, Skarm / Ferro / Bronzong etc weren't particularly problematic, fast bulky ones like Rotom-W and especially Celebi were. also, Quagsire was instalose whenever I wasn't running Haxorus - even more than Excadrill >_____>

    pretty much just echoing Gen. Empoleon here, but I did try slapping on DDTar - and all my non-SS-immune pokes hated the extra damage, Gyara and Cloyster in particular.

    as for bulky offense / a playstyle that requires Actual Thinking / Playing/Teambuilding Skills, I definitely think Volcarona is the sweeper in this meta with the most potential - it requires quite a bit of support, but give it that support and it just devastates. especially loving Chestorest, here.
  9. barry4ever

    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Oct 20, 2009
    So, I decided to get into OU with the last bans out of the way and was mildly pleased to see that it is quite balanced now. I discovered early on that I'm an offense player, be it Ubers or OU, so here I am posting in these threads ! Also keep in mind, offense is gaining popularity now, stuff like Terrakion, DDnite, Jolteon, Starmie are everywhere !

    Rain offense really took a heavy hit from the loss of Thundurus who was really the star of every Rain heavy offense team. However, with that shocking genie out of the play, I saw quite a few Specs Jolteon on rain teams and quite surprisingly they did well. Now that Excadrill is gone, Jolteon no longer fears being set up bait to possibly the deadliest sweeper in the tier. Also, most of the Jolteon I saw just ran Volt Switch and did not bother with Baton Pass. Also, why no mention of Gyarados in the OP ? :( Its quite good, better than bulky Vaporeon IMO, does anyone even use that ? Also that goddamn DD Dragonite is everywhere killing stuff. One of the biggest problem pokemon is Ferrothorn and thats expressly why I've stashed a BU Conkeldurr up my team. Also I'm loving Tornadus with its excellent coverage and Hurricane spam. Obvioulsy, I think rain offense is the best now, it pawns every other type of weather if played well and has quite a few gems in its arsenal.

    I'll be frank about SS offense, its NO WAY NEAR as good without Excadrill. There are no more good abusers and its basically just Landorus and Heatran now. Sandstorm has pretty much been reduced to a "counter" weather. I have never used sun teams so I wont talk about that :/

    Also, what exactly is Dual Screen offense ? You should probably remove it, Dual Screens can just as well be used on Rain or Sand teams so it makes little sense to classify it that way. Also, you should probably include Hyper Offense somewhere since it is gaining popularity with the banning of Thundurus and Excadrill.
  10. TM13IceBeam


    Oct 22, 2010
    Dual Screens is basically another term for bulky offense...

    And from what I know, that's not exactly offensive, that's balanced.
  11. SiZZirP


    Nov 3, 2010
    My favorite offense would have to be Deoxys Hazard Lead, Substitute pain-split Gengar and four other hard hitting pokes.

    I limit myself to two set sweepers just to keep things in my favor, just in case things don't go my way I can fall back to playing defensive a bit.
  12. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming
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    Aug 18, 2009
    Choice Band Terrakion is a Pokemon who just embodies offense. Its ridiculously powerful and almost impossible to wall on top of being ridiculously fast too. The best physical wall in the tier gets 2HKOed with some prior damage and /or rocks. Its capable of OHKOing practically any Pokemon that doesn't have a decent health and defense score. (for example, both Haxorus and Virizion are flat out OHKOed by Jolly Choice Banded boosted Close Combat)

    It also greatly benefits from sandstorm, since special attackers actually have a lot of trouble killing it. (IE teams that rely on Latios to check Terrakion are fucked if its in the sand) all in all, Choice Band Terrakion is a force that should never be forgotten.

    On a related note, those Deoxys + DD Haxorus + DD Dragonite teams are really strong too. (The banning of Excadrill made Dragon Dancers a million times better)
  13. Nachos

    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Sep 16, 2007
    I've been using offense a lot recently. The playstyle as a whole has defnitely improved with Excadrill banned, and I've seen an increase in teams full of DD Haxous, DD Nite, SubDD Gyara etc. Dragonite in particular is currently the best Pokemon in the game I reckon, there's few negative externalities to using it on your team, and it can set up on everything if it's at 100% HP. Lum Berry means you can just set up on Pokemon like defensive Politoed and you won't need to care about Toxic or Scald burns. The most common reason for it being used is Outrage, but I also see it as a way to guarantee that +1.

    I've been using Deoxys-S a lot more too. If they don't have a spinner (damn Tentacruel is everywhere these days), then it's probably a Top 5 mon and makes winning the game a lot more easier. I've been using this set to a lot of success:

    Deoxys-S @ Mental Herb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Taunt
    - Spikes
    - Stealth Rock
    - Ice Beam

    I figured that the only reason I ran max Speed was to tie with opposing Deoxys-S. Instead, I just run Mental Herb now which blocks opposing Taunt, allowing me to Taunt their Deo-s and let me get up at least Stealth Rock. Bold + max Def evs allow me to take Ferrothorn's Gyro Balls, Dragonite's Extremespeed's, and a couple of other physical moves better too.

    I think that offense will slowly become more and more popular, both hyper and normal. It has easy to use Pokemon like Dragonite and matches up well against pretty much every type of team. I can't say whether Rain or non-weather offense is best. I've tried them both and they're both pretty awesome.
  14. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Dec 22, 2004
    I don't believe the loss of Excadrill really affected Rain / Sun Offense, other than nerfing Sand Offense, but it definitely helped out weatherless heavy-offensive playstyle

    Thanks for this post, Tomohawk9 - it basically captures the essence of heavy offensive teams.

    It's interesting that you bring up LO Latios and TR Reuniclus, because I was actually brainstorming SPECIAL heavy offense, which I feel is underrated (everybody prefers physical to take advantage of DDNite, Scizor, Lucario, Haxorus, etc). The one thing that Special HO lacks is strong priority moves. I'm just gonna dump my idea here:

    Special HO, basically abuse Special Sweepers that can cumulatively break through Chansey / Blissey / Ttar / Scizor / Jirachi. Here are the candidates:

    Main Sweepers

    ~ Mew - NP Sweeper
    ~ Reuniclus - CM Sweeper, TR Sweeper, or both (CM, Psyshock, Focus Blast, TR)
    ~ Virizion - the classic CM Virizion, but with HP Rock
    ~ Alakazam - obvi; maybe Encore (against Latias, etc) or Substitute on the fourth slot. Psyshock to break through Chansey / Blissey.
    ~ Latios - CM LO Sweeper - DMeteor, HP Fire, and Psyshock
    ~ Deoxys-E - LO Sweeper; thinking STAB, HP Fire, Superpower, and Shadow Ball
    ~ Gengar - LO SubSplit Gar is an effective wall-breaker.

    Complementary Offense
    ~ Heatran - provides some nifty resistances to Volcarona and Dragons, it can still utilize Taunt or Metal Sound to pressure Chansey / Blissey / TTar
    ~ Dragonite - also provides some further Volcarona support and priority - DMeteor, FBlast, ESpeed, and BBreak
    ~ Lucario - Has the 4x resistance to Dark. Provides some priority in either Vacuum Wave (NP) or ExtremeSpeed (Mixed).

    Speaking of Volcarona, I don't think it's the ideal candidate for weatherless HO, since it requires lots of support (ie keeping Rocks off the field). It also has pretty poor coverage, allowing threatening monsters, such as Terrakion, Dragonite, Heatran, Tyranitar, to switch-in relatively easily. Maybe a team that leads with Taunt / Mirror Coat + Dual Screen Deoxys-S can allow Volcarona to shine, but otherwise just stick Volca in Sun, lol.

    ginganinja also brought up a great point, emphasizing the utility of BP in offensive teams. Baton Pass is not limited to the predicted-from-team-preview BP Chain / Smash-Pass teams. You can deceptively include NP / CM / SD Celebi, NP Mew, SD Mienshao, SD Scizor, etc to baton pass and share their boosts to other offensive mons. The move also serves to keep you momentum with U-turn / Volt Switch-like mechanics. I've used CM + Sub Pass Celebi successfully in the past - BPass has so much utility, people should try it more (outside of BP chain teams that is :p)
  15. windwolf777


    Jun 1, 2010
    Just saying, mienshao rapes. No matter what team I make, I always use this chick. Has everything needed to succeed. I use HJK/u-turn/hp ice/fake out. With LO using niave works as an awesome ghost lure to bring in a ghost to hit hard by using uturn w CB/ Muscle band (yes, I use muscle band on some pokemon) Scizzor pursuit. This lets CS Terrakion, herself, and lots if other ghost hating pokemon sweep just from that 1 mistake. She also makes a really amazing Zoroark partner because her disguise lures ghosties to kill with Night Daze. And regenerator fixes any accidental hjk mishaps lol. I love this chick. Maybe I should have her use a choice scarf ? What you think people think ? Rest of team is Zoroark, Celebi, Herself, Infernape, Gastrodon, and Heatran. I use the last 3 to counter other weather.
    EDIT: Should I use Terrakion instead of nape ?
  16. Xephyr


    Mar 7, 2009
    People are really underestimating the power of fire types under the sun. Why doesn't anyone use Infernape anymore? Even when not under the sun, his classic mix set from last generation rapes. And let's not forget Darmanitan's Flare Blitz under the sun, which is one of the most powerful moves in all of Pokemon. People think their Latios's can take that shit cause they have a fire resistance. Bitch, please. OHKO. (By the way, both of these guys should be mentioned as sun sweepers. Victini too. I don't give a shit that they're UU, because they can still wreck shit up here)
  17. NixHex

    NixHex ONE YEAR Seizure Free!! God bless keppra.
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    Oct 6, 2009
    Your team only has Heatran to check Volcarona (if it has HP Ground and can pop your Air Balloon with Bug Buzz on the switch, you're screwed). Choice Scarf Terrakion is by far the best counter to Volcarona, switching in on a Quiver Dance and outright murduring with Stone Edge. Scarf Ape can work similarly with Flare Blitz but greatly appreciates sun (see below), which your team doesn't feature.

    If you're going to go the sun Darmanitan route, it must wear a Scarf. Even Jolly Darmanitan will split teams in half with Flare Blitz.
  18. Xephyr


    Mar 7, 2009
    Well obviously. While it's fun to go band where you can basically 2HKO everything imaginable in the game, the only truly viable Darmanitan is scarf.
  19. Onicon


    Jan 7, 2011
    Unfortunately Ninetales doesn't add much to the offensive power of sun team. She neither has a wide variation of active moves like Infernape nor enough power to blast through the opponent like Darmatian; having both Tyranitar and Politoed as counters sucks, Energy Ball is just weak against tanks.
    In my opinion the most effective way of playing Ninetales still is support (stalling is only optional). Will-O-Wisp and Toxic can wear down opponent to KO range, allowing you to increase the pressure - or letting you set up in the case of WoW. Just too bad she lost Reflect since the first gen.
  20. Xephyr


    Mar 7, 2009
    Ninetales is easily the worst of the weather starters (I'll even take Abomasnow over Ninetales), but I still think sun is tied with rain for the most potent weather right now simply because of the utter domination Venusaur, Volcarona, and Darmanitan bring. Sure, rain has Tornadus and the like, but Tornadus is a little bitch.
  21. Razza


    Mar 26, 2011
    Offense teams are all a bit standard these days, deoxys-s lead, ddnite with lum, otr reuniclus, and probably a scizor and mayeb a lucario thrown in as well, they also all tend to be very volcarona weak, and just very sun weak in general with ddnite being the only check and not a particularly effective one at that

    i dont see how this new meta of increasingly similar hyper offense teams is any different from the old excadrill sand teams that everyone complained about but oh well........
  22. Onicon


    Jan 7, 2011
    I wouldn't say Ninetales was the worst weather starter; you're right with the offensive one. You can see her typing under a different persective. Her water weakness is compensated by her SDef and the sun with most water moves are special moves. Her weaknesses to stone and ground is godsend when using WoW, as it draws a lot of physical threats like Landorus, Terrakion, Gliscor (overwriting Poison Heal is nice), and Tyranitar himself.
    Again, that's not offensive but an aid for offensive style. Sounds too "balanced" if you ask me but Rapid Spin is no different. I often image "hyper offensive" as keeping pressure only with momentum and power so it won't work.

    Actually funny not to see Charizard here somewhere. Probably because it looses amost its entire power simply by Toed and Tar switing in.
  23. NixHex

    NixHex ONE YEAR Seizure Free!! God bless keppra.
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    Oct 6, 2009
    Charizard is not mentioned because it is only viable in the sun and this is not a sun offense thread. Also, for the reasons you listed, and because it takes 50% from SR.
  24. Omicron

    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Feb 17, 2010
    Why isn't 4Drag2Mag mentioned in the OP? With Thundurus gone, things like Haxorus, Latios, etc, no longer have to fear a priority Thunder Wave except from Volbeat (lol). With paralysis support, things like Swords Dance Haxorus actually become pretty effective. I've used a team with SD Haxorus with SD / Outrage / EQ / Taunt (for status users), Steel-Killer Zone, and some paralysis support along with entry hazards, and it can OHKO basically the whole world after a boost + Life Orb, especially after entry hazard damage. Mold Breaker allows it to destroy Bronzong and other Levitators, and Mold Breaker Outrage dgaf about MultiScale Dragonite. Latios can similarly wreak havoc on the special side, and is a nice complement to the physical Haxorus. In addition, 4Drag2Mag is pretty easy to use.
  25. Eggbert


    Oct 30, 2009
    Special hyper offense works. Most of the walls you mentioned don't have reliable recover except the pink blobs. Reuniclus in particular is nearly unstoppable lategame if you manage to weaken Scizor a bit. Let me cut to the good stuff, here are the special sweepers that work and what is pro / con:

    - Lucario. It's NP aura sphere has a shot at OHKOing Bliss after SR and it also can beat scarfers like Terrakion with vaccuum wave. Less useful now that Quagsire is common and there's no need for an Exca check, and gets outspeed by alot of things that resists its priority.

    - Latios. CM Latios is a monster and is one of the best ways to weaken TTar / Ferro / Rachi / Zor provided you bring it out early and have screens up for priority in Scizor's case. It also helps against strong elemental attackers and can wallbreak and lure Bliss with psyshock. You shouldn't run special HO without it.

    - Volc: With STAB and hp rock it is only walled by Terrakion really. It's just really effective under screens and against many teams. Also helps against Scizor.

    - Jirachi: CM rachi is an excellent Heatran lure for volc and an excellent Scizor / Ttar lure providing you run the right coverage moves. Very good at weakening Bliss since it can't toxic stall you. Walled by quag / gast though.

    -Reun. enough said about this one. Great check to unboosted sweepers and the best cleaner.

    -Virizion: can weaken bliss, help against rain. Watch for tornadus.

    Also, heavy offense is different from hyper. Heavy uses choiced members and alot of prediction and double switching. Hyper involves breaking down similar counters and uses dual screens and all physical / special.

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