Toxic Blissey is laughed at by NP Luke. You get two free NP's if their only offensive move is Seismic Toss.
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Lucario
- Thread starter Ditto
- Start date
Twave Blissey could still screw you over and take away your speed so something with priority or something that is faster then Luke can pluck it from the ground and crush it effortlessly.
But you still have Vacuum Wave.
Lucario isn't known for its' wonderful defenses, so it doesn't take too much to end a sweep from it. Paralyze it, then use a priority move like Azumarill's Aqua Jet or Conkeldurp's Mach Punch. Both of those priority moves would most likely be more then enough to silence Luke for the remainder of the game.
lmitchell0012
Wi-Fi Blacklisted
Now that I think about it, I think shadow ball actually is the safer choice. With dark pulse, you have to worry about other justified users (like other lucario and terrakion) switching in.
Fighting and Ground are also very common, and Lucario's defenses are paper-thin. If an opponent can survive an ES from a +2 Luke then paralyze it, send in a bulky attacker with a powerful priority move or a SE move to take it out.
Why isn't agility Luke being used more? After eliminating priority attackers, It catches so many people off guard as they fumble around to try stalling out Lucario off LO damage.
Bumping Lucario to challenge the Nasty Plot set (or better yer Lucario itself)
It's certainly safe to assume that Lucario commonly runs one of two sets in the current metagame: its standard Swords Dance or Nasty Plot sets. Any other set would make Lucario underwhelming in comparison to sets with +2 boosts.
Swords Dance:
So judging from the way both sets play, I'd like to ask this question: Is there any actual point to using Nasty Plot Lucario competitively outside of Vacuum Wave (to hit Terrakion of all things) and special moves?
or:
Why should we use Nasty Plot Lucario?
From what I see, Swords Dance Lucario does the same thing Nasty Plot does, including breaking through defensive threats (with a more powerful move, too!) and just being a threat that just doesn't care about hazards. The popularity of threats such as Latios, Deoxys-S, and Landorus leaves Vacuum Wave's advantages to be desired, even though you now hit Terrakion (a common check to Swords Dance). I personally prefer ExtremeSpeed's neutral coverage (relative to Psychic- and Flying-types) and additional power over Vacuum Wave's more specific use (relative to faster Steel- and Rock-type Pokemon). Even if we take Vacuum Wave out of the question, you may as well be using another special sweeper if Lucario has to resort to subjective measures to beat some threats (read: Lucario's Hidden Power Ice vs Starmie's Ice Beam).
Finally, I don't use Nasty Plot Lucario simply because there's so many specially defensive threats in OU that lowers its practicality. Things like Blissey, Chansey, Jirachi, and Gastrodon can cripple Lucario in time, even though they might be 2HKOed by Aura Sphere (which is more than enough time). +2 Close Combat instantly slaughters them.
If anybody uses Nasty Plot Lucario (at all), kindly explain why others should use it rather than Swords Dance, which, as explained above, does better in the metagame where it's at. Hey, I'd really like to use it, but I hate having to stack sweepers just to get rid of the many faster Psychic- and/or Flying-type threats. Judging by the way others play, I'm also under the impression that it's played just because.
It's certainly safe to assume that Lucario commonly runs one of two sets in the current metagame: its standard Swords Dance or Nasty Plot sets. Any other set would make Lucario underwhelming in comparison to sets with +2 boosts.
Swords Dance:
- Swords Dance Lucario is a dangerous sweeper, capable of screwing over various types of team when it gets the chance to boost its Attack. These opportunities are many due to Lucario's decent typing and resistance resistance to common entry hazards.
- The above is amplified by Extremespeed, which beats most Pokemon without an immunity or resistance to Normal-type attacks. Extremespeed's new mechanics also lets Lucario beat some priority users to the punch. Arguably, without Extremespeed, Lucario would suffer as an OU sweeper.
- In addition to Close Combat and Extremespeed, Lucario has room for one more coverage option: Crunch for Ghost-types (especially Jellicent), or Ice Punch for the ubiquitous Gliscor and Dragonite. Choosing one over the other leaves Lucario extremely vulnerable to the aforementioned threats; without Crunch, Ghost-types threaten to burn you, while without Ice Punch, Gliscor and Dragonite have an easier time setting up on it.
- Lucario has the ability to smash through certain walls on defensively-oriented teams, mainly Skarmory (who is crippled after taking a Close Combat) and bulky Water-types (most are hit for an OHKO), which is fairly nice.
- An innovative, if not somewhat overhyped, use of Lucario this generation, more focused on raising Lucario's Special Attack and going all-out with Aura Sphere.
- With Special moves, Lucario has the ability to bypass more physical walls in addition to additional threats
- Doesn't have to set up to beat certain Pokemon, such as Gliscor and Skarmory.
- Also relies on priority in the form of Vacuum Wave, allowing Lucario to hit faster Steel- and Rock-type Pokemon. This comes at the cost, however, of giving Lucario redundant coverage and a weaker move.
- A move that could replace Vacuum Wave would be Hidden Power, giving Lucario additional coverage against Gastrodon (Grass) or 4x Ice-weak threats. The latter is preferable due to the popularity of Dragonite.
- Isn't crippled by burn.
So judging from the way both sets play, I'd like to ask this question: Is there any actual point to using Nasty Plot Lucario competitively outside of Vacuum Wave (to hit Terrakion of all things) and special moves?
or:
Why should we use Nasty Plot Lucario?
From what I see, Swords Dance Lucario does the same thing Nasty Plot does, including breaking through defensive threats (with a more powerful move, too!) and just being a threat that just doesn't care about hazards. The popularity of threats such as Latios, Deoxys-S, and Landorus leaves Vacuum Wave's advantages to be desired, even though you now hit Terrakion (a common check to Swords Dance). I personally prefer ExtremeSpeed's neutral coverage (relative to Psychic- and Flying-types) and additional power over Vacuum Wave's more specific use (relative to faster Steel- and Rock-type Pokemon). Even if we take Vacuum Wave out of the question, you may as well be using another special sweeper if Lucario has to resort to subjective measures to beat some threats (read: Lucario's Hidden Power Ice vs Starmie's Ice Beam).
Finally, I don't use Nasty Plot Lucario simply because there's so many specially defensive threats in OU that lowers its practicality. Things like Blissey, Chansey, Jirachi, and Gastrodon can cripple Lucario in time, even though they might be 2HKOed by Aura Sphere (which is more than enough time). +2 Close Combat instantly slaughters them.
If anybody uses Nasty Plot Lucario (at all), kindly explain why others should use it rather than Swords Dance, which, as explained above, does better in the metagame where it's at. Hey, I'd really like to use it, but I hate having to stack sweepers just to get rid of the many faster Psychic- and/or Flying-type threats. Judging by the way others play, I'm also under the impression that it's played just because.
ElectivireRocks
Banned deucer.
NP Lucario beats Cloyster after Shell Smash, SW does not.
That alone is reason enough to use it.
That alone is reason enough to use it.
I haven't found NP-Lucario too useful, especially in face of the Specs-Set, which gets his job done, too. Obviously OHKOing Cloyster with Vacuum Wave, 2HKOing Blissey after SR damage (infact the only specser who can overcome Blissey), 2HKOing offensive Gyarados after SR (Drak Pulse), 2HKOing Jellicent (Dark Pulse). Only absolute specially defensive Jirachi may survive long enough, but you still can switch out. Most of the time you pretty much don't want to set up when you can attack immediately. In the case of Lucario, +2 doesn't help him KOing more threats than a +1 can do; it's rather difficult for special Lucario to find the correct timing for setup, mainly due it's weak priority move he is too easily checked.
This is kind of my beef with Nasty Plot Lucario; it requires that special boost, and yet it's checked alot more because of its speed and weaker priority move. You still have the same issues with the Swords Dance set, only with less things to worry about because "Hey! I can actually OHKO common OU threats like Latios, Venusaur, Jirachi, and Gastrodon without having to fiddle with 2HKOes!"Onicon said:
I don't think opening yourself to being checked by special walls and fast attackers simply for hitting things like Cloyster and Terrakion is a good enough justification for actually using a Nasty Plot LucarioElectivireRocks said:
...over its equally wallbreaking but more threatening physical counterpart.
Bullet Punch isn't so bad on SD Lucario either. Something like SD/CC/Extremespeed/BP. Bullet Punch is obviously horrible for coverage, but it lets Lucario beat Gengar and Terrakion - and those are two common switch-ins for it. Just get rid of Jellicent first.
You can lose Extremespeed instead for BP, and keep Crunch/Ice Punch, but ExS is so handy that it's hard to let go of. Also, if your opponent sees you use it, they won't expect Bullet Punch as well, so they'll feel more confident about bringing in Terrakion or Gengar on the SD.
You can lose Extremespeed instead for BP, and keep Crunch/Ice Punch, but ExS is so handy that it's hard to let go of. Also, if your opponent sees you use it, they won't expect Bullet Punch as well, so they'll feel more confident about bringing in Terrakion or Gengar on the SD.
Physical lucy is what they expect though. Yes, as you said they will often send in a physical wall to deal with her. However for me at least it goes like this:
Swap lucy in hit by a few hazards (lefties recovery)
They send in something with intimidate lets just say gyra (hit by SR)
I usually NP as they DD
They miss with the tail and I get a second NP.
Then they get worried. And make a big mistake; send in bliss
Hit with a +6 aura sphere.
Ragequit
TL; DR Version: NP causes them to predict wrong and scramble. And that's good because stuff gets hit with passive damage lol
Swap lucy in hit by a few hazards (lefties recovery)
They send in something with intimidate lets just say gyra (hit by SR)
I usually NP as they DD
They miss with the tail and I get a second NP.
Then they get worried. And make a big mistake; send in bliss
Hit with a +6 aura sphere.
Ragequit
TL; DR Version: NP causes them to predict wrong and scramble. And that's good because stuff gets hit with passive damage lol
NP lucario loses some good moves such as Close Combat, Extreemespeed, Bullet Punch and EQ, which is its main disadvantage.
>dd+dragon tail
>dd to waterfall
A) Why DD + Dtail
B) What if Dtail doesn't miss?
C) Why don't they just Waterfall/EQ for the KO?
I like NP luke too, but it has a lot of issues.
I'm honestly asking myself that for everybody who's asking, I'm not sure either
But:
A: People like to be able to Phaze
B: My team doesnt have too many things weak to gyra
C: The rest can handle a +1/1 or even +2/+1 alright.
... Why is everyone still discussing Swords Dance Lucario vs. Nasty Plot Lucario? I maintain this viewpoint:
Nasty Plot Lucario sucks and Swords Dance Lucario is the only viable Lucario.
-Skarmory has a chance to be OHKOed by a +2 Close Combat after Stealth Rock damage anyway.
-Nasty Plot Lucario has serious trouble with specially defensive Jirachi, while SD Luke OHKOs it with a +2 Close Combat.
-NP Luke is much easier to wall. So you just set up with it, and your opponent brings in a Latios. Oh shit, you don't have a +2 ExtremeSpeed to get past it! Oh no, what do?!?!?!?@@@
All in all, Nasty Plot Luke's only real advantage is getting past Pokemon that resist ExtremeSpeed with Vacuum Wave, but since Excadrill's uber, it's more of a curse since a large number of relevant threats now resist Vacuum Wave and Vacuum Wave in the sand doesn't OHKO Terrakion anyway.
Nasty Plot Lucario sucks and Swords Dance Lucario is the only viable Lucario.
-Skarmory has a chance to be OHKOed by a +2 Close Combat after Stealth Rock damage anyway.
-Nasty Plot Lucario has serious trouble with specially defensive Jirachi, while SD Luke OHKOs it with a +2 Close Combat.
-NP Luke is much easier to wall. So you just set up with it, and your opponent brings in a Latios. Oh shit, you don't have a +2 ExtremeSpeed to get past it! Oh no, what do?!?!?!?@@@
All in all, Nasty Plot Luke's only real advantage is getting past Pokemon that resist ExtremeSpeed with Vacuum Wave, but since Excadrill's uber, it's more of a curse since a large number of relevant threats now resist Vacuum Wave and Vacuum Wave in the sand doesn't OHKO Terrakion anyway.
the metagame has certainly shaped in such a way that SDLuke is your best bet. Too many of the fast sweepers out there resist Vacuum Wave (Latis, Deoxys-S, Landorus, Starmie, Gengar, Celebi, Volcarona, Salamence, Espeon, Tornadus, Alakazam...) and the majority of them get smashed by Extremespeed.
Specially-based Luke is still an amazing Gliscor lure though - I've yet to see an opponent who has thought twice about switching their Gliscor into Lucario so it's usually an easy kill right there. Still, that niche is devalued since Excadrill's banning and even then it was better left to SpecsLuke which is still a handy little set but it aint no SDLuke. SDLuke is the way to go in this meta, no doubt about it.
Specially-based Luke is still an amazing Gliscor lure though - I've yet to see an opponent who has thought twice about switching their Gliscor into Lucario so it's usually an easy kill right there. Still, that niche is devalued since Excadrill's banning and even then it was better left to SpecsLuke which is still a handy little set but it aint no SDLuke. SDLuke is the way to go in this meta, no doubt about it.
