Lucario

[Shining Kestral]

But what about the coverage gained on gyarados and zapados gained by stone edge?

No one's saying Stone Edge is a bad option. It's a good one. The thing is, Lucario can't run all the moves it would like to due to four moveslot syndrome, so no matter what you choose re: Crunch vs Stone Edge, it's going to run into some problem or the other.

Whether Lucario should use Crunch or Stone Edge depends on the rest of your team, honestly. For example, if they can walk all over Rotom-A or has a Gyarados or Zapdos problem, then Stone Edge will probably be the better choice. If they're fine with Gyarados or Zapdos, but have ghost issues, then Crunch is the way to go.

 

[SJCrew]

Bulky Ghost types don't laugh at Lucario with Stone Edge, wtf. They take a shitton of damage and probably die if you deal enough prior damage. Stone Edge is important for hitting faster Flying types on the switch or slower defensive Flying types without sacrificing neutral coverage on important targets.

Luke's NP set IS surprisingly effective, and I've actually run through teams with it, but I like to gamble with Focus Blast. You'd be surprised at how many situations there are where that extra power counts.

 

[BurningMan]

Luke's NP set IS surprisingly effective, and I've actually run through teams with it, but I like to gamble with Focus Blast. You'd be surprised at how many situations there are where that extra power counts.

really i tried to build a team around NP Luke and was really disappointed since he often ended up doing nothing except for providing Priority to stop some sweeps (but i had Breloom on the same team so it wasn't really needed).
For me his bigest flaw was that he cant do much against more offensive teams since even after a boost Vaccuum Wave was often not enough to KO specific threats and 90 Base Speed isnt really cutting it this gen. he is pretty effective against Stall especially SkarmBliss and BurunkOrei, but things like Lati@s (well all Dragons bar Sazando), Breloom, Ropuschin, the Flying Genies, Scarf Shandera, Hippowdon and even Doryuuzu, that could live through an unboosted Vaccuum Wave and KO back, were all very common on PO and made it near impossible to sweep for him.

As long as the meta game wont make a heavy shift to stall (wich isn't impossible) i dont see him being that great, but maybe i just used him wrong i would be very intrested on how you supported him and what were his team mates.

On a side note i wouldn't like to use Focus Blast on him sure it can be very useful but on something that frail missing once can often mean his end and i dont see were he would really need the power.

 

[Ech0ez]

Bulky Ghost types don't laugh at Lucario with Stone Edge, wtf. They take a shitton of damage and probably die if you deal enough prior damage. Stone Edge is important for hitting faster Flying types on the switch or slower defensive Flying types without sacrificing neutral coverage on important targets.

Adamant Max Atk Lucario +2 LO Stone Edge vs;
Max HP/Max Def Giratina - 34.9% - 41.3%
Max HP/Max Def Evo Stone Dusclops - 39.1% - 46.1%
Max HP/Max Def Desukaan - 47.8% - 56.3%

If they come in on Swords Dance or Extreme Speed they easily live the Stone Edge and Will-O-Wisp you, but it's worth noting the only one that can safely switch-in against Stone Edge with Stealth Rock in play is Giratina; a Gen IV Uber and enough prior damage on any of them will ensure the 2HKO and that's with maxed defenses.

 

[min min]

Lucario faces some degree of competition with Kobuaron, the Steel/Fighting legendary stag. Both have Swords Dance and Justice Heart, but Lucario has a superior movepool, higher attack, priority and the ability to go mixed, while Kobuaron has only Close Combat, Holy Sword, Stone Edge or Iron Head to choose from.

On the other hand, Kobuaron has Taunt to block Deathkan and Dusclops from burning him, better trolly speed (108) and way better bulk: 91/129/90. It can even survive an unboosted Doryuuzu Earthquake and strike back with Holy Sword, whereas Lucario can only attempt to strike weakly with Extremespeed and Bullet Punch in sandstorm.

Overall, Lucario packs immediate, unpredictable power and priority while Kobuaron has the potential to squeeze in a few extra Swords Dances due to Taunt and base 129 defence.

 

[Forsety]

Nasty Plot with Vacuum Wave Lucario is going to be disgusting, NP Toxicroak is the proof it can rip through traditional counters easily and there is absolutely nothing that says he can't still run physical moves like Extremespeed or Bullet Punch.

 

[min min]

Actually you'll find that a +2 Vacuum Wave is only a few points stronger than a neutral Adamant Lucario Extremespeed.

 

[Green Mage]

I would have loved to just slap Nasty Plot on my specsLuke, but now I have to raise an entirely new Lucario because they made it a pre-evo only move. Why the heck do they do that? Maybe i'll employ a hacker to do the dirty deed.

Vacuum Wave vs Extremespeed (special vs physical luke) is a good problem to have. Extremespeed is more damage and higher priority, but the Wave has a better attack type, especially when backed up with dark/ghost moves. The Nasty Plot set did very well on PO for me while the servers were up (contrary to an above poster), and it's generally cooler imo, but the Swords Dance set has been tried and proven to be amazing. I think the new priority of extremespeed is going to give the physical set the edge though, as Lucario can now outspeed other priority moves, most notably Mach Punches.

 

[Pombo]

Actually you'll find that a +2 Vacuum Wave is only a few points stronger than a neutral Adamant Lucario Extremespeed.

what about stab. 60 BP vacuum wave x 80 BP ES. ES is 33% stronger, but +2VW is 50% (or more, if you consider the base stat differencer...) stronger than neutral ES.

 

[Bogmire]

Someone please explain why Dark Pulse is the only option on the Nasty Plot set when it makes the moveset resisted by Heracross and Toxicroak. Shadow Ball is clearly the superior move because Aura Sphere+Shadow Ball gets flawless neutral coverage and hits the same targets that Dark Pulse+Aura Sphere does.

 

[MarsVolta]

Dark Pulse isn't that bad of an option. While it does cause you to lose coverage on Heracross and Toxicroak, those are two rare pokemon, and I doubt they would even be switching in on Lucario. Meanwhile, Dark Pulse has a flinch chance which could be useful in tight situations, and I doubt the SpD drop from shadow ball is helpful to NP Lucario since it looks like he can already 2hko pretty much anything. But the most important reason why Dark Pulse might be better is because there are no pokemon immune to it, so if your opponent switches out of a predicted shadowball to a normal type, they would still get damaged. For example, Dark Pulse + Aura Sphere is prolly ko on Blissey, where as if Blissey switched into shadow ball, survived the Aura Sphere and thunder waved you, you'd be screwed.

 

[GLS]

I've been using NP Luc for a while on my PO team and it runs through teams more often than not. I did have some issue with him dying easily, but then I put Balloon on him and was easily able to get multiple Nasty Plots off and sweep through teams without issue.

 

[SlyShady]

Why Dark Pulse on the Nasty Plot set? Shadow Ball outclasses it when used with Aura Sphere. And Vacuum Wave for priority... Awesome. Also: Nasty Plot Lucario can take down the Nattorei/Burungeru combo. Even better :)

 

[shipship]

Dark Pulse isn't that bad of an option. While it does cause you to lose coverage on Heracross and Toxicroak, those are two rare pokemon, and I doubt they would even be switching in on Lucario. Meanwhile, Dark Pulse has a flinch chance which could be useful in tight situations, and I doubt the SpD drop from shadow ball is helpful to NP Lucario since it looks like he can already 2hko pretty much anything. But the most important reason why Dark Pulse might be better is because there are no pokemon immune to it, so if your opponent switches out of a predicted shadowball to a normal type, they would still get damaged. For example, Dark Pulse + Aura Sphere is prolly ko on Blissey, where as if Blissey switched into shadow ball, survived the Aura Sphere and thunder waved you, you'd be screwed.

Blissey just isn't beating Lucario regardless.

Even in the scenario you describe, where Blissey switches into Shadow Ball, then is able to survive a +2 Aura Sphere (barely) to use T-Wave, you can still Vacuum Wave the next turn to finish her off.

The existence of Justice Heart means Dark Pulse isn't exactly spammable either.

 

[min min]

Oops, my bad. Still, I find that Vacuum Wave just isn't enough sometimes: it fails to kill Ononokusu, who lands a SE Earthquake to KO. The prevalence of the Justice Heart horses also put a damper on Vacuum Wave, especially Birijion with 129 Sdef.

 

[boyofrito]

I think that Lucario be used in a stall team better. now lucario has overhead throw, and that deals damage and forces a switch. just a thought

 

[lmitchell0012]

Okay, I know that we would never allow this, but let's pretend for a minute that lucario had gotten nasty plot in the 4th generation. Would it have had a major impact on the 4th generation metagame?? What pokemon would he now be able to 2HKO that he couldn't previously?? I know that choice specs lucario was already able to 2HKO blissey, so this would made things even easier. The only major difference is that now he doesn't have to rely on a modest nature to get that extra power, and is able to get more speed running a timid nature instead. Actually, now that I think about it, he doesn't even need a timid nature, because the only pokemon in OU he would be tying in speed with is himself.

 

[xscythe]

One thing I find interesting is that Lucario is one of four and the only non-dragon (Dragonnite, Dragon Arceus, Rayquaza) that can use Extreme Speed and have a STAB gen V phazer. (Overhead Throw in Lucario's Case)

 

[min min]

Gyarados Schmyarados, they're called counters for a reason.
Ultimately, it's down to beating ghosts 100% of the time, or Flyers 80% of the time.

 

[Lowen]

Are there some news about the effectiveness of NP Lucario? I don't see it as often as I would hoped for..

 

[BurningMan]

Are there some news about the effectiveness of NP Lucario? I don't see it as often as I would hoped for..

well as i said his rather low speed and weakness to the now more common Mach Punch are huge letdowns. Vaccuum Wave isn't that great cause there are plenty resists that are faster and can KO Luke.
Aura Sphere and Shadow Ball offer great coverage, but their base power is too low to OHKO defensive threats that take neutral damage.

He works great as a stall breaker though, but as a sweeper the SD set is imo better (wich now also got serious competition from Terakion).

 

[Game Fusion Master]

how about
lucario
item leftovers
moves
aura sphere
dragon pulse
vacuum wave
flash cannon
really good mixed sweeper
try forevs
205 SPA/ 205 HP/100 speed

 

[CTNC]

how about
lucario
item leftovers
moves
aura sphere
dragon pulse
vacuum wave
flash cannon
really good mixed sweeper
try forevs
205 SPA/ 205 HP/100 speed

The guy below explains what a Mixed Sweeper is. Lucario is fragile so You'd be better with 252 SPA/ 4 HP/252 speed for this moveset. Flash Cannon is pretty bad and you already have perfect coverage so I'd go with Nasty Plot to boost Special Attack. Also use a Life Orb.

 

[Charlemagne]

how about
lucario
item leftovers
moves
aura sphere
dragon pulse
vacuum wave
flash cannon
really good mixed sweeper
try forevs
205 SPA/ 205 HP/100 speed

'Mixed' Sweeper means you mix Physical and Special moves. Those are all Special moves.

Mixed? :| Um... your a noob.

That was unnecessary. You could just correct the guy.

Anyway, Dragon Pulse isn't a bad substitute for Shadow Ball on Lucario, as it does more damage, and Dragon/Fighting is unresisted. It's basically hitting Ghosts and Psychics SE vs hitting Dragons SE, and generally hitting everything else harder.

 

[Lucalibur]

that was actually the easier and most direct way to say. the set itself would not be so horrible if was not by the evs and item, plus the fact he dont even bother to list the nature.

i am actually a bit scared that lucario might be outclassed as a SD sweeper by the other steel/fighting (forgot the name now), sure he lack the same base 110 atack and priority, but can take a lot more hits and is way faster(the first is the reason lucario can never get more then 1 SD, the second is why he always run priority moves).


i dont know if we already got a BW banlist or some shit like that but if we do and the steel horse is banned then just ignore that part of the post.