Milotic

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Hmm, I still need to test ev spreads.

 

[MrHands]

Rest / Sleep Talk / Boiling Water / Dragon Tail seems like a useful set. Might go some ways to keeping Hihidrauma in check.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

To be fair, all Milotic needs to invest in is some Speed EVs to outrun some significant threats, and the rest into HP and the desired defense stat. Since Milotic is running Marvel Scale and Boiling Water and all...In a metagame filled with more dangerous physical sweepers, Milotic needs status to switch in and invest heavily in Defense if Marvel Scale or Boiling Water burn doesn't activate after use.

Also, consider Haze for Speed Boost Blaziken. I think Milotic can take his hits well and relegate the boosts.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Boiling Water is really good and all, but I'm thinking in this metagame, Milotic needs all the defense it can get. Sure, the damage lost on Dragon Tail is a shame, but it's still better than nothing, and now Milotic has a roar without negative priority on top of defenses... Why use it over Gyarados? Well, we can use her as a sleeptalker as a more defensively based Gyarados now. Sleeptalking Gyarados' stats are typically 393/286/282/x/236/200. Milotic with the same spread has 393/140/282/236/286/200... with Marvel Scale that defense stat is the godly 423-with boiling water, no physical threat will be a perfect threat. What says everybody else on spreads?

 

[Firestorm]

I'm leaning towards Mirror Coat instead of Dragon Tail in the last slot. Latias, Starmie, Gengar, and plenty of others love trying to scare off Milotic with Thunderbolts and other moves that are just enough not to 2HKO Milotic, but enough to OHKO back with Mirror Coat. With its bulk, Milotic can usually then Recover off the damage later.

My most likely moveset:
Boiling Water
Ice Beam
Recover
Mirror Coat

Gonna need to run some calcs to figure out nature + EVs.

 

[Alexa888]

Boiling Water is really good and all, but I'm thinking in this metagame, Milotic needs all the defense it can get. Sure, the damage lost on Dragon Tail is a shame, but it's still better than nothing, and now Milotic has a roar without negative priority on top of defenses... Why use it over Gyarados? Well, we can use her as a sleeptalker as a more defensively based Gyarados now. Sleeptalking Gyarados' stats are typically 393/286/282/x/236/200. Milotic with the same spread has 393/140/282/236/286/200... with Marvel Scale that defense stat is the godly 423-with boiling water, no physical threat will be a perfect threat. What says everybody else on spreads?

Definitely. Sleep Talk is the way forward, with Dragon Tail and Boiling Water to phaze and cover physical threats. I forgot Sleep Talk ignores Dragon Tail's low priorty, making it even more useful.

394 HP / 366 Defense / 330 Special Defense are the stats of the current alm Rest Talk Milotic, and that is generally a good spread. You don't need to 252 HP 252 Def Bold, because that is sort of OTT in defence. One of Milo's selling points is its well rounded defensive stats, so that is can take unboost HP Grasses and Electrics.

My Spread: 252 HP, 180-252 Def (depending on which Pokemon is big in Gen V and how defensive Milo has to be.) and any EVs left dumped into SpDef, with a Calm nature.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

I suppose testing Calm natured variants for now is my best bet. 252 HP/200 Defense/56 Special Defense is very balanced on a rest-talker. However, this generation ev-wise anyway, we need to take into account both Marvel Scale and Boiling Water--would one be able to get away with 252 HP/252 Special Defense--how bout 8 speed evs--are those necessary, too?

She has better defenses than Burukeru, no?

 

[Murkglow]

I'm not a fan of assuming we get the Burn from Boiling Water. That plus taking hits both before Marvel Scale is active and before you get burns mean that frankly I don't like the idea of ignoring Defense.

 

[GLS]

I'm not a fan of assuming we get the Burn from Boiling Water. That plus taking hits both before Marvel Scale is active and before you get burns mean that frankly I don't like the idea of ignoring Defense.

Agreed, relying on burns from Boiling Water as part of your defenses is a phenomenal way to have Milo KO'd. Not only do you have to contend with the 30% chance that Boiling Water burns something, but you have the 33% chance that sleep talk even chooses Boiling Water. I can't even tell you many times both turns of Sleep Talk have resulted in Rest being used. Thankfully she lives just long enough against most attackers to rest again.

 

[Blumey]

I think Milotic will greatly appreciate her new dragon tail, Marvel Scale on Boiling Water, and Boiling water itself but i don't think it will be enough to warrant OU. (even though i REALLY wanted it to be OU)

 

[Manaphy]

Agreed, relying on burns from Boiling Water as part of your defenses is a phenomenal way to have Milo KO'd. Not only do you have to contend with the 30% chance that Boiling Water burns something, but you have the 33% chance that sleep talk even chooses Boiling Water. I can't even tell you many times both turns of Sleep Talk have resulted in Rest being used. Thankfully she lives just long enough against most attackers to rest again.

Well after using Boiling Water Twice, you have a 60% chance, three times is 90%.

So, after two or more Boiling Waters you'll have a pretty good chance to Burn.

 

[GLS]

Well after using Boiling Water Twice, you have a 60% chance, three times is 90%.

So, after two or more Boiling Waters you'll have a pretty good chance to Burn.

I'm sorry sir but probability does not work like that. Not to mention the fact that Milotic can't sit there and use Boiling Water 3 times hoping for a burn.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I would probably use a moveset of: Surf, Toxic, Haze/Dragon Tail, Recover. Mirror Coat seems rather gimmicky, and it takes away from Milotic's utility (without a stat boost removing move, it's much easier to set up on).

would one be able to get away with 252 HP/252 Special Defense

NOOOO!!! Without any defensive EVs, Milotic isn't able to switch into anything physical, which makes it a less capable mixed wall. Milotic doesn't have much to gain out of surviving Jolteon's Specs Thunderbolt because it can't OHKO in return. It also can't survive things like +2 Lucario's Close Combat when marvel scale is activated, which is one of its selling points.

For the quadrillionth time, this is the best spread in every single scenario on a non-Life Orb Milotic (at least in OU):

Calm
252 HP/240 Def/16 SpD

The End.

 

[Murkglow]

Well after using Boiling Water Twice, you have a 60% chance, three times is 90%.

Indeed that's not proper probability. I believe (if I remember my statistics classes well enough after all this time) the chance of not getting a burn after 3 uses of Boiling Water is about 34%.

At the same time, I don't buy Super Mario Bro's insistance that Calm, 252 HP/240 Def/16 SpD is the best in all possible situations. At the very least the spreads for a Rest/Talker and a Recover Milotic should definatly be different.

 

[R.B.G.]

Like it does in a lake somewhere in Hoenn and Sinnoh, Milotic thrives close to the bottom. It seems to be the only bulky water not to get some ($#!+) cool ability.

Despite the fact that pretty much everything got Dragon Tail and Boiling Water, Milotic gratefully appreciates the two. Unlike a lot of other bulky waters and walls, Milotic has reliable recovery as well, so that's a plus.

 

[R.B.G.]

Well after using Boiling Water Twice, you have a 60% chance, three times is 90%.

So, after two or more Boiling Waters you'll have a pretty good chance to Burn.

Btw, that actually isn't true, since what you're talking about is compound probability, but yeah, after three Boiling Water, I'd $#!+ myself if I was relying on a burn.

 

[Karoda Gai]

All water special walls <3 Boiling water is they can burn their opponent and also wall them physically with a burn, and in Milotic's case you'll never see a Milo using surf anymore.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

At the same time, I don't buy Super Mario Bro's insistance that Calm, 252 HP/240 Def/16 SpD is the best in all possible situations. At the very least the spreads for a Rest/Talker and a Recover Milotic should definatly be different.

Hmmm, why?

252 HP/252 Def/4 Spe Bold is unnecessary because Milotic is not guaranteed to survive super powerful physical hits like +1 LO Salamence's or +2 Yache Garchomp's Outrage before Marvel Scale is activated. It would be a shaky check to these Pokemon at best. When Marvel Scale is activated, 252 HP/240 Def/16 SpD Calm survives these hits with health to spare.

252 HP/252 SpD/4 Spe is even worse because it gives you no "wiggle room" to check physical threats like LO Gyarados and some versions of MixApe. In other words, residual damage will screw you, and you would need a separate check entirely. Milotic has no business dealing with special threats like Zapdos, Jolteon, and Celebi; and would appreciate some physical defense to counter Mixed and Physical Attackers more effectively.

 

[Murkglow]

I never said I was in favor of a 252/252 spread.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I never said I was in favor of a 252/252 spread.

You may want to edit your OP then, ;)

 

[Murkglow]

It's not mine. =P

Please check names (also you obviously should notice that my Milotic Avatar is a Female while Cipher's is a Male =D j/k).

 

[Super Mario Bro]

It's not mine. =P

Please check names (also you obviously should notice that my Milotic Avatar is a Female while Cipher's is a Male =D j/k).

That's just...annoying...<_<

Blah. :P

and in Milotic's case you'll never see a Milo using surf anymore.

My Milotic is going to have Surf for eternity! (unless there's some utterly broken water move that's coming out in the future). If Lava Plume sucks on Heatran, Boiling Water is going to suck on Milotic.

 

[Murkglow]

If Lava Plume sucks on Heatran, Boiling Water is going to suck on Milotic.

I don't buy that either. Milotic is dropping 15 power (on a poke who often doesn't invest in SpA anyway) for a 30% burn chance. I honestly don't see the major downside needed for something to "suck".

What KOs does Milotic lose by dropping that 15 power?

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

I don't buy that either. Milotic is dropping 15 power (on a poke who often doesn't invest in SpA anyway) for a 30% burn chance. I honestly don't see the major downside needed for something to "suck".

What KOs does Milotic lose by dropping that 15 power?

Milotic's survivability is much better than Heatran's and it benefits greatly from the burn chance.

Anyway, does anybody have any other sets than those I listed? It's funny--defensively, Milotic is a lot better than the new jellyfish.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I don't buy that either. Milotic is dropping 15 power (on a poke who often doesn't invest in SpA anyway) for a 30% burn chance. I honestly don't see the major downside needed for something to "suck".

What KOs does Milotic lose by dropping that 15 power?

When factoring in STAB, Boiling Water and Surf have a 22.5 base power discrepancy. This means Surf is 18.75% more powerful that Boiling Water. ;)

With 100 Base SpA and no invested EVs, Milotic isn't doing much damage to anything with a 120 Base Power move. The common argument is that "Milotic isn't here to sweep" but it's important to hit switch-ins like Jolteon and other special sweepers for a substantial amount of damage to prevent them from repeatedly coming in to threaten Milotic.

Secondly, Milotic's common switch-ins don't really care about burn. Let's think about this one: who commonly comes in to force Milotic out? Grasses and electrics, of course! What do these grasses and electrics hate with a passion? Toxic! Dragons resist water, but can't do much at all to Milotic when she is constantly hazing in their faces (or Ice Beam, depending on the moveset), and if they dare to Outrage, you can switch to a steel and proceed to laugh in their faces.

Thirdly, it develops a bad habit when you try to stay in on physical threats you can't beat just to give them a burn. 30% burn rate isn't very reliable, and it can prove to be deadly if you give these physical sweepers too much of an opportunity to set up.

Also, you would just be asking for things like Guts Heracross/Machamp/Nageki/Roobushin to get a burn and set up on you. That's no fun.